Video: ‘Vegetative’ patients not necessarily unconscious
posted at 3:35 pm on February 9, 2010 by Ed Morrissey
This news has been making its way around the blogosphere for a few days, and this CNN video reports on the study on so-called “vegetative” patients covers it pretty well. The study in Cambridge showed that 17% of patients assumed to have no brain activity beyond involuntary impulses actually show cognitive understanding using an MRI to map brain responses to questions asked by researchers. None of the 17% had brain injury due to hypoxia, the underlying cause of the injury to Terri Schiavo, whose case became a national political crisis a few years ago, but the implications of this study are still horrific:
I’m reminded of the dialogue in the film The Elephant Man, in which Dr. Treves asserts that John Merrick (actually Joesph Merrick in real life) had to be mentally feeble as a result of his hideous deformities — to which Treves adds something to the effect that he prayed that Merrick was feeble, because the alternative would be torturous. The new diagnostic ability that this study suggests could mean that patients once dismissed for years as nonresponsive have actually had an interior life without any ability to recognize it or communicate it to the outside world. It could also mean that previous decisions to suspend care may have been made in error, although entirely in good-faith belief that the person inside had utterly vanished.
This could change all of our perceptions on the victims of tramautic brain damage, as well as offer hope for those who remain trapped but conscious inside unresponsive bodies.
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I read this one. I agree. It’s a horror. I feel the worst for people with loved ones in this situation. It will make their decisions so much worse.
AnninCA on February 9, 2010 at 3:37 PM
I have left instructions and spoken with my wife that I am to be kept alive until I actually kick the bucket – no help from pulling the plug or starving or dehydrating me to death – regardless of what doctors say about my ‘brain waves’.
I know my view isn’t everyones, but until the Good Lord calls me home, it ain’t my time.
catmman on February 9, 2010 at 3:38 PM
Ed, I think it depends on the person. Some need for them to act alive. Some don’t want to let them heal. Heck some come back from 20 yr coma’s, talking and such.
How many people are killed due to “Pulling the Plug”?
upinak on February 9, 2010 at 3:39 PM
This is why we should always err on the side of life. They may have pulled the plug “in good faith” but it wasn’t in good Faith.
LakeLevel on February 9, 2010 at 3:39 PM
I’m glad they are finally finding a treatment for voting Democrat.
lorien1973 on February 9, 2010 at 3:39 PM
This has only shown to be the case in Brain damaged victims not oxygen deprived victims (ex: Terry schivo)
Norvell on February 9, 2010 at 3:40 PM
Some cold water on the euthanasia crowd? Death Panels changing their policies? Unborn babies now a “person” at an earlier week of gestation?
….nahhh!…doesn’t fit the narrative. Kill ‘em off and spare the carbon, right leftwads?
ted c on February 9, 2010 at 3:42 PM
In truth, the line between life and death is a lot more blurry than our Western, dualistic philosophy tends to appreciate. There are still reasonably accurate ways to determine neural responses, etc. though.
And, what about the “spirit?” That’s something I think about often, but which is impossible to measure with any scanner yet developed.
cs89 on February 9, 2010 at 3:43 PM
Conversely, there are those with a state of consciousness and no brain activity, ie Gibbs, Brennan, and Napolitano.
rjoco1 on February 9, 2010 at 3:43 PM
Ed pointed that out in the first paragraph.
Midas on February 9, 2010 at 3:44 PM
A modern day version of being buried alive.
I cannot imagine the horror of being conscious of the goings on in my surroundings – unable to communicate – while everyone thinks that I am in a vegetative state.
A fate worse than death.
turfmann on February 9, 2010 at 3:45 PM
They may have honestly thought they hit an objective threshhold for allowing the patient to die…but in setting up an objective threshold for allowing the patient to die, I think “good-faith” was breached.
Chris_Balsz on February 9, 2010 at 3:45 PM
Wouldn’t hurt to reiterate it because as Ed said it has been making its rounds around the web however under false pretext in order to politicize the findings..
Norvell on February 9, 2010 at 3:45 PM
When the Schiavo situation happened, my wife and discussed this and what could be done. I have decided that regardless of how “aware” I might be of my surroundings, if there is no way to communicate, it’s simply not worth it.
If I could even blink my eyes to yes or no questions, that obviously counts for communication. But if there is no way at all to get messages out of my brain….
If this brain-wave study continues, I would suppose it might even be possible for someone who is actually aware and awake to communicate SOMEhow in that fashion. If they learn at what waves to watch for a particular response, again, even with the “yes or no” patterns, that could open a lot of hope for these type of patients. (IIRC, didn’t they have something like that on House or something?)
Not a doctor of any sort, but I would think that eventually they might also find where to reconnect the open circuit that could reenergize the rest of the body.
JamesLee on February 9, 2010 at 3:46 PM
catmman on February 9, 2010 at 3:38 PM
I hear you, and it’s your choice- at least until Obamacare passes!
Seen far too many cases, though, of people asking the staff to keep doing CPR, defibrillate multiple times etc. because “God will take them when it’s their time.” Not to be cold-blooded, but after the third Code Blue I sometimes imagine God saying “That’s what I’m trying to do!”
cs89 on February 9, 2010 at 3:46 PM
Not a very good study. Why did they use an MRI and not a Magnetoencephalography (MEG)?
BDU-33 on February 9, 2010 at 3:47 PM
no offense, but if I were in a vegetative state, I’d want someone to pull the plug on me. but maybe that’s just me…
Palin Steele on February 9, 2010 at 3:48 PM
Greatest movie line ever…
Seven Percent Solution on February 9, 2010 at 3:48 PM
even those that are oxygen deprived can make a full come back. The media shows a story here and there but I think it is a higher precentage then one would know.
upinak on February 9, 2010 at 3:49 PM
This is unintentionally hilarious!
daesleeper on February 9, 2010 at 3:51 PM
I’m surprised someone hasn’t done it already, then. Hmm.
lorien1973 on February 9, 2010 at 3:51 PM
Must. Resist. Urge. To. Snark….
JamesLee on February 9, 2010 at 3:51 PM
That’s why Scalia refused to attend the State of the Union.
They could cure oxygen-deprivation comas tomorrow, and it wouldn’t help Terri Schiavo. Because she was killed. Per civil court order. By a method that you can’t use to put down a dog. Perhaps that is the real problem, not that we keep complaining about it?
Chris_Balsz on February 9, 2010 at 3:54 PM
Some will argue that it means that more should have care suspended.
Having never been in a vegetative state, I have no idea if some level of consciousness would be good or simply drive one to madness.
mankai on February 9, 2010 at 3:56 PM
A little personal, but it’s on topic. I’m crippled now, but I’ll have fully-functioning legs in heaven. Not to mention 1) wings and 2) no more constant near-puking-cause-it-hurts-so-badly pain from that injury ten years ago. I won’t force it along, but if I need help eating or breathing for longer than a few days then let me go.
Medical technology has a long way to go before it will change my mind, and I’m not sure I’d want to be “healed” back into my current state. Much less kept alive indefinitely in a state that, pain-wise, is the same as I am now and which had taken away what capabilities I *do* have.
rogerb on February 9, 2010 at 3:58 PM
I have known for years that vegatative people are not necessarily unconcious. This is how I got through college.
DeweyWins on February 9, 2010 at 3:59 PM
Where do we sign up for the position?
Narutoboy on February 9, 2010 at 3:59 PM
It could be tomorrow or a million years from now. At that point in time the husband who had legal right to do so decided to pull the plug.
Norvell on February 9, 2010 at 3:59 PM
Jorge Luis Borges: While we are asleep in this world, we are awake in another one.
Tav on February 9, 2010 at 4:00 PM
But enough about Detroit.
daesleeper on February 9, 2010 at 4:00 PM
This is not good news for those of us who have made seemingly clear life and death decisions. I needed more guilt.
Cindy Munford on February 9, 2010 at 4:01 PM
sorry to break it to you bud, but there is no heaven. pssst…there’s also no Santa Claus lol
Palin Steele on February 9, 2010 at 4:03 PM
I hadn’t laughed that hard in a while. Thanks for that.
SKYFOX on February 9, 2010 at 4:04 PM
Aware? Yes.
Going to recover to play the piano again?
Not likely.
Life! Nobody gets out alive!
Wander on February 9, 2010 at 4:04 PM
you must have a boring life then. meh.
Palin Steele on February 9, 2010 at 4:05 PM
We, the bloggers here, have known this for a long time.
There are comatose trolls here at every article. But, some are brain dead, too.
Cybergeezer on February 9, 2010 at 4:05 PM
this reminds me of that old movie of the soldier who is injured – can’t speak, hear, see nor move…they all think he’s brain dead…he isn’t…it was the saddest movie i’ve ever seen…
janetney on February 9, 2010 at 4:05 PM
cs89 on February 9, 2010 at 3:46 PM
I have my opinion because my heart did stop years ago after having an appendectomy. It took almost two minutes to get my heart going again. Of course my experience isn’t exactly analogous, but you get my point.
Nothing quite like first hand experience to give you clarity on a subject…
catmman on February 9, 2010 at 4:05 PM
Before jumping to conclusions here you should read a Science News article, about the quality of information that comes from these MRI studies. They recently did one that showed a DEAD fish was responding to the images it was being shown. Cold, dead fish. Now to spell it out, there is no way in hello that a dead fish has any brain activity, therefore the equipment is faulty. It is picking up what ain’t there. Learn something from the AGW scam, scientists have agendas!! They use experiments that prove their agenda is the truth.
odannyboy on February 9, 2010 at 4:06 PM
Aren’t there some flies you need to pull the wings from?
SKYFOX on February 9, 2010 at 4:07 PM
no offense, but if I were in a vegetative state, I’d want someone to pull the plug on me. but maybe that’s just me…
Palin Steele on February 9, 2010 at 3:48 PM
___________________
Fortunately, in America, you are given that choice, and can make that demand, unless the Gov’t wants to step in, which is obviously going to happen regardless of Republican or Democrat representation. They both want to make your decisions for you.
uknowmorethanme on February 9, 2010 at 4:08 PM
Sure glad Leftoid political class and hooting media promoted Terri Schiavo’s disgruntled ex into having the “right” to kill her.
Settled science strikes again.
profitsbeard on February 9, 2010 at 4:08 PM
Because no one could pronounce it…
I’ve always thought that, God forbid, if a loved one ended up like this I would speak to them as if they could understand me just in case. I would assure them that I knew they could hear me etc.
Akzed on February 9, 2010 at 4:09 PM
See, that’s just part of the problem. You imagine he had legal authority to pull the plug, end of story. The myth is that Terri herself directed her care, and her husband had the burden of carrying out her wishes. But even you don’t believe that. That’s why a right-wing fanatic like Rev. Jesse Jackson came out against her execution.
Chris_Balsz on February 9, 2010 at 4:09 PM
Sure glad Leftoid political class and hooting media promoted Terri Schiavo’s disgruntled ex into having the “right” to kill her.
Settled science strikes again.
profitsbeard on February 9, 2010 at 4:08 PM
____________________
Actually, setlled LAW strikes again. Since he was the one responsible for making the decision. But enough with the whole liberty thing, it’s obviously overrated unless it serves your agenda.
uknowmorethanme on February 9, 2010 at 4:09 PM
I think I’d focus more on the “hope” than the “horror,” since all we’ve gained is knowledge — no one’s caused these people to suddenly become conscious.
Once you have binary communication (“yes” or “no” based on the part of the brain being activated), you immediately have a lot more.
As a simple start, do family members want to know whether the patient wants the plug pulled? Just ask the patient.
I think about how quadriplegic people can now “type” by focusing on a projected keyboard and blinking their eyes. I’d bet something similar will soon be available for these conscious non-”vegetables,” based on reading brain responses.
notropis on February 9, 2010 at 4:10 PM
Something tells me that when death finds you, you’ll be a pants-wetting screamer.
SKYFOX on February 9, 2010 at 4:10 PM
Please post your proof. Thanks. lol
Akzed on February 9, 2010 at 4:10 PM
Anyone notice the premise of the CNN reporter’s question about hope? Of course, he said, it will be false hope.
(cue the Monty Python bring out your dead video)
That’s right. Pull the plug. Gotta save money on health care.
Hope is only good for political campaigns. Can’t have hope unless it’s got Obama’s picture over it.
InterestedObserver on February 9, 2010 at 4:10 PM
AH, HAHAHAHA!
james23 on February 9, 2010 at 4:12 PM
Ever closer we come to understanding the biological workings of living things. And yet the “spark” of life – that force that brings a thing alive and sustains its life – is as elusive as it ever was.
We think we know so much – and by the standards of those who have come before, it would seem that we know infinitely more than they. Yet we are closest to the answers to the questions of life’s origins when we admit that we know next to nothing in relation to the greatness of the mystery.
You can join a conservative open forum at It’s About Freedom.
IronDioPriest on February 9, 2010 at 4:12 PM
That’s right. Pull the plug. Gotta save money on health care.
Hope is only good for political campaigns. Can’t have hope unless it’s got Obama’s picture over it.
InterestedObserver on February 9, 2010 at 4:10 PM
_________________
Yes, much better that Gov’t control the decisions instead of the patient and his/her family.
Big Gov’t Republicans, just like Big Gov’t Democrats, just with difference issues.
uknowmorethanme on February 9, 2010 at 4:12 PM
catmman on February 9, 2010 at 4:05 PM
I respect your experience. Having seen this scenario numerous times, I try to never predict exactly what will happen in a given situation.
Statistically, though, few people who code (especially multiple times) will recover to the point of going home and living what is often termed a “quality” life.
As to the neuro test which this post is about, it’s good information. It’s always good to find out more about the human body and how it functions, and how to interpret the data we can gather about exactly what’s going on inside the magnificent organ in the skull. I’m just leery of people taking these stories to mean choosing to withdraw an (artificial) ventilator from a patient who is requiring meds to keep the heart going & pressure up, who does not respond to painful stimuli, and who exhibits no obvious signs of purposeful movement is “killing” them, rather than allowing them to die, especially if it was their previously expressed wish not to be artificially kept alive for an extended period of time.
cs89 on February 9, 2010 at 4:13 PM
We think we know so much – and by the standards of those who have come before, it would seem that we know infinitely more than they. Yet we are closest to the answers to the questions of life’s origins when we admit that we know next to nothing in relation to the greatness of the mystery.
________________________
Exactly, we know nothing.
uknowmorethanme on February 9, 2010 at 4:13 PM
and? is that supposed to be an insult?
I never claimed I wouldn’t be afraid of death. But I’m far more afraid of being a vegetable than dead.
Palin Steele on February 9, 2010 at 4:13 PM
Amen, brother. I told my wife the same thing!
mwdiver on February 9, 2010 at 4:14 PM
If these comatose dudes can respond to stimuli, then they can vote!
Oh, crap!
Cybergeezer on February 9, 2010 at 4:16 PM
FIFY
mwdiver on February 9, 2010 at 4:16 PM
Since the state of Florida, at least, considers casual comments like this as binding directives, let me state for the record, that if I end up in the Captain Pike chair–GET ME A NURSE THAT KNOWS MORSE CODE!!!!
Chris_Balsz on February 9, 2010 at 4:17 PM
Doesn’t our President say this is one of his problems?
Rovin on February 9, 2010 at 4:18 PM
unicorns haven’t been proven to be real….yet. Let me know when they do then we can talk.
Norvell on February 9, 2010 at 4:19 PM
So you walk around in a constant state of fear?
thomasaur on February 9, 2010 at 4:20 PM
Too late…
Seven Percent Solution on February 9, 2010 at 4:20 PM
Wow, seems like a person with such comprehensive and irrefutable knowledge about everything would have better uses for her time than posting snarky comments on the web. Don’t you have a universe to run?
AZCoyote on February 9, 2010 at 4:20 PM
Irony is grand.
Akzed on February 9, 2010 at 4:24 PM
I guess it’s normal to see this topic bring up “ghoul” humor, but seriously, it’s not funny.
I’ve had too many real life friends face this in real life.
It’s honestly not a joke.
AnninCA on February 9, 2010 at 4:26 PM
Apples to oranges. Doing CPR or to defibrillate are much different than starving or thirsting someone to death.
mwdiver on February 9, 2010 at 4:27 PM
Really Ann? You look on this discovery of another piece of the mystery of life like it’s an annoyance? Could you admit the progress of the ultra-sound showing live babies LIVING in a world they’re waiting to evolve from, also makes it “a worse situation” for mothers about to terminate, (murder), this life?
Oh, the Horror indeed!
Rovin on February 9, 2010 at 4:29 PM
They have instructions to plug me into an outlet with a switch and flip the switch on and off real fast and check for a response:
!_!_!_!_!_!_
Cybergeezer on February 9, 2010 at 4:30 PM
Palin Steele on February 9, 2010 at 4:13 PM
If there is no Heaven (and conversely, no Hell), if all that happens when we die, is that we die, then why fear that? You’re going to die, we all are. If you are one who doesn’t believe in any kind of afterlife, then what’s the prob?
It seems to me that one who makes such unequivocal statements about Heaven, then death would be the thing you wouldn’t fear at all?
catmman on February 9, 2010 at 4:30 PM
Depends on the afterlife.
TexasDan on February 9, 2010 at 4:31 PM
Wouldn’t do any good.
mwdiver on February 9, 2010 at 4:32 PM
With all due respect, and please uderstand that I mean this as a sincere question, not a critism of your beliefs, but if there is a plug to be pulled, don’t you think the Good Lord has already called you home?
Ann on February 9, 2010 at 4:33 PM
Per you there’s no heaven so…you’d rather end what little life you have left and cease to exist?
At least you can’t have any regrets. Assuming you’re correct, of course.
TexasDan on February 9, 2010 at 4:33 PM
So doctors are contravening the will of God?
TexasDan on February 9, 2010 at 4:34 PM
Make sure your brain is preserved: Low mileage grey matter commands a fair price. Or you might try a pawn shop.
Cybergeezer on February 9, 2010 at 4:37 PM
its the opposite.
If you believe there is a heaven or afterlife, then why fear death (unless you did something horrible to warrant hell).
For those who believe there’s a heaven or afterlife, they should not fear death and instead look forward to it.
For someone like me, who thinks living now if our only shot, death scares me since once I die, I’m gone.
Don’t you realize that’s why religion was invented in the first place…to help us answer the unanswerable, to comfort us.
In ancient days, people believed praying to the gods would deliver rain and good harvest.
Later on, people believed the universe revolved around earth.
Today, people believe in concepts of after life.
All these beliefs have been explained away by science but were created to provide comfort to the masses.
Palin Steele on February 9, 2010 at 4:37 PM
As I’ve already stated, I consider living in a vegetative comatose state to be far more of a nightmare than death. That might just be me…although I think many share the same sentiment.
Palin Steele on February 9, 2010 at 4:39 PM
Think of it this way. If you end up a veggie, you won’t care anymore.
TheUnrepentantGeek on February 9, 2010 at 4:40 PM
Trapped inside my brain, not even able to scratch my ass if it itches?
No thanks.
Some things are worse than death.
justltl on February 9, 2010 at 4:40 PM
If it can be proven factually that oxygen deprived patients and lets be real we know the goal here is to tie to it schivo, then I will be on your side in being against pulling the plug. However, there is no evidence for that being the case. The “it could happen” logic can extend to infinity. In Schivo’s case for major parts of brain needed to function and have consciousness was either incredibly depleted or gone completely. The person who performed the autopsy basically stated that recovery was impossible in the state she was in.
Norvell on February 9, 2010 at 4:41 PM
It’s okay. I was young and knew every dang thing once, too. May you live long enough to outgrow it.
rogerb on February 9, 2010 at 4:42 PM
Empirical source,please.
mwdiver on February 9, 2010 at 4:42 PM
On a loosely related note in regards to this topic, for those who haven’t seen it check out the diving bell and the butterfly. Great movie about a person who developed locked in syndrome after a stroke.
Norvell on February 9, 2010 at 4:42 PM
Maybe you forgot but there was a deliberate fight against any such evidence being tested.
What, don’t you know? Maybe we could try to make sure?
Deny anybody food or water for two weeks, and see how their organs look–and yeah that’s serious; is the county coroner expert in neurology, or dehydration?
Supposedly the Constitution prevents a court from starving a prisoner as punishment for murder; here, death by starvation was ordered by a civil court. Is that really tolerable?
Chris_Balsz on February 9, 2010 at 4:48 PM
Ann on February 9, 2010 at 4:33 PM
I believe that what happens, happens per the will of God. Simply put, whatever happens, was meant to happen. This may be somewhat simplistic for some, but it’s served me pretty well over the years.
If I’m in an accident and not killed outright, then I’m not meant to die…yet. Maybe I’ll die later in the hospital from complications, whatever, but unless I’m dead, I’m not dead, if you understand my meaning.
I have gone through to many things, witnessed to many things and come out the other side with better understanding or experience I wouldn’t have had otherwise, to make me believe otherwise.
If you ain’t dead, you ain’t dead – and there is still hope.
My view isn’t for everyone, but you asked. Hope that clarifies things. : )
catmman on February 9, 2010 at 4:49 PM
I will admit probably true, based on our scientific knowledge as it exists now. However, I don’t believe we necessarily know all there is to know about life. Nor do I believe that miracles are not possible, nor have never happened. I believe people are certainly allowed to make their own decisions. Lacking a clear, written directive, however, I don’t belive others should be making those decisions, especially in Terri Schiavo’s case, where the husband possibly had vested interests in her eventual death. Also, the fact that her parents were willing to absolve him of all financial, as well as “caring”, responsibilities, I belive we should have erred on the side of unicorns existing.
mwdiver on February 9, 2010 at 4:51 PM
That’s coming!
Barrack’s going to tell all the Republicans;
“YOU’RE ALL GOING TO HELL IF YOU DON’T PASS MY HEALTHCARE BILL”.
Cybergeezer on February 9, 2010 at 4:59 PM
The Schiavo case may be different in regards to her having any brain activity, but it still was outrageous what they did. Her family, other than her “husband” had agreed that they would take care of her. Her husband, if that is what you call a man with a companion and children, said he knew she wanted to die.Starving her and dehydrating her was despicable. Oh, and Palin Steele, in my World there is a heaven. Sorry you don’t have it in yours.
sandee on February 9, 2010 at 4:59 PM
I know this might be ancient history for many here, but check out the movie or play; “Whose Life Is It Anyway?” 1981.
Cybergeezer on February 9, 2010 at 5:03 PM
better than leaving her as a vegetable.
Palin Steele on February 9, 2010 at 5:05 PM
You mean like congress?
right2bright on February 9, 2010 at 5:06 PM
If ObamaCare passes, they’ll be keeping select individuals on life support to harvest body parts for the privileged class.
Cybergeezer on February 9, 2010 at 5:08 PM
If you came out of it you wouldn’t think it was so bad…you sit and listen in horror as they discuss how they are going to “pull the plug” and let you starve and dehydrate to death. And you have no say, because you know, you just know, that soon you will able to communicate…but you can’t say or do anything as they reach over and stop the feeding.
“It will be all over in about one week, they won’t suffer because they are unaware” the doctor states…and silently you are screaming, “DON’T, I WILL HEAL, JUST GIVE ME MORE TIME”. But the decision has been made for you, you now have one week to heal, or you die…why can’t they have faith you pray…prayer is all you have, they have taken your time away…
right2bright on February 9, 2010 at 5:12 PM
Right sandee. The Schiavo case is so troubling because the State intervened to support a husband with incredible conflicts of interest, and endorsed his quest to snuff out Teri’s life, even though the blood relatives begged to be given responsibility for her care.
Mark30339 on February 9, 2010 at 5:13 PM
well thats a BIG if…there’s no guarantee I would come out.
imagine being a vegetable for years…it would be worse if I were conscious, trapped in my body prison.
Palin Steele on February 9, 2010 at 5:14 PM
Locked In Syndrome. Some can learn to communicate with various technologies.
rlwo2008 on February 9, 2010 at 5:16 PM
If you want to hear real tales of torture, listen to people that have been operated on in cases where the muscle-relaxing drug worked fine, but the drug that was supposed to make them unconscious didn’t work. They can’t speak, or twitch, or blink, but they feel every cut, tear, and stitch.
RBMN on February 9, 2010 at 5:19 PM
All’s not lost for vegetative patients: Many have started news blogs. Some with amazing credibility.
Cybergeezer on February 9, 2010 at 5:19 PM
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