Tebow ad exposes the intolerance of the “tolerant” Left

posted at 11:00 am on February 2, 2010 by Ed Morrissey

Sally Jenkins, a pro-choice columnist for the Washington Post, writes a devastating essay today on the reaction from her side of the abortion issue to the Super Bowl ad featuring Tim Tebow that celebrates choosing life.  Jenkins says she couldn’t disagree more with Tebow on the issue of abortion, but cannot believe the kind of knee-jerk overreaction coming from NOW, which Jenkins presumes refers to “National Organization for Women Who Only Think Like Us.”  Jenkins says the overwrought reaction exposes the intolerance of the supposedly tolerant Left and shows that so-called “pro-choice” groups are really more pro-abortion:

I’m pro-choice, and Tebow clearly is not. But based on what I’ve heard in the past week, I’ll take his side against the group-think, elitism and condescension of the “National Organization of Fewer and Fewer Women All The Time.” For one thing, Tebow seems smarter than they do.

Tebow’s 30-second ad hasn’t even run yet, but it already has provoked “The National Organization for Women Who Only Think Like Us” to reveal something important about themselves: They aren’t actually “pro-choice” so much as they are pro-abortion. Pam Tebow has a genuine pro-choice story to tell. She got pregnant in 1987, post-Roe v. Wade, and while on a Christian mission in the Philippines, she contracted a tropical ailment. Doctors advised her the pregnancy could be dangerous, but she exercised her freedom of choice and now, 20-some years later, the outcome of that choice is her beauteous Heisman Trophy winner son, a chaste, proselytizing evangelical.

Pam Tebow and her son feel good enough about that choice to want to tell people about it. Only, NOW says they shouldn’t be allowed to. Apparently NOW feels this commercial is an inappropriate message for America to see for 30 seconds, but women in bikini selling beer is the right one. I would like to meet the genius at NOW who made that decision. On second thought, no, I wouldn’t.

As for those who say the Super Bowl is no forum for personal perspectives on life, Jenkins offers a particularly compelling counterargument:

His critics find this intrusive, and say the Super Bowl is no place for an argument of this nature. “Pull the ad,” NOW President Terry O’Neill said. “Let’s focus on the game.”

Trouble is, you can’t focus on the game without focusing on the individuals who play it — and that is the genius of Tebow’s ad. The Super Bowl is not some reality-free escape zone. Tebow himself is an inescapable fact: Abortion doesn’t just involve serious issues of life, but of potential lives, Heisman trophy winners, scientists, doctors, artists, inventors, Little Leaguers — who would never come to be if their birth mothers had not wrestled with the stakes and chosen to carry those lives to term. And their stories are every bit as real and valid as the stories preferred by NOW.

Shouldn’t tolerance include hearing opposing viewpoints, or at least allowing them to be aired in public forums?  After all, tolerance means putting up with something, not agreeing with it.  If the only ideas we allowed to air publicly were those that had almost-total consensus, that’s not tolerance but political correctness — a rhetorical straitjacket that goes against the very idea of free speech.

When groups like NOW want to silence people like the Tebows, they’re doing so to protect their own turf.  The ad asks people to choose life, not to ban abortion.  If NOW really was pro-choice, they’d see nothing invalid about showing the end result of one choice and the faith that carried the Tebows from that terrifying diagnosis to the pinnacle of athletic and scholarly success.  Tebow represents hope in the midst of hopelessness.  NOW doesn’t want people to have hope; they want women to buy abortions, and this ugly response has made that crystal clear.

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nite, ted.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:12 PM

AnninCA,

I totally agree with you that what you want to do with your body is up to you. and others shouldn’t impose their religious beliefs on you.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:16 PM

My position? It’s just not your business what I decide to do with my life.

Period.

In fact, it’s flipping aggravating.

LOL*

I view a lot of pro-lifers like mosquitoes, always buzzing around to suck blood from people.

My opinion? I think they need a hobby other than sticking their nose in other people’s lives so much.

But, would anyone ever really pay attention to my opinion?

Heck no! Mosquitoes exist. And this issue ain’t going away in my lifetime.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:09 PM

Now you’re simply dissimulating.

The issue is not, and has never been, your “opinion” or your “feelings” the issue is what is right and what is wrong.

You don’t want to face the fact that your decision to abort a living, growing, functioning human being in the womb of it’s mother is despicable and monstrous. So, you equivocate, and you obsess over the issue, wishing it would go away, wishing you could get it out of your conscience, and you can’t.

My guess is, either you, or someone close to you had an abortion, and you do not want to entertain the thought that you killed a child. So, like most people who want to mask the killing of an innocent human being, you de-humanize the child, and dismiss the issue.

It won’t work, Ann, believe me, it won’t work.

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:18 PM

Women really do matter. :)

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 10:46 PM

Yes, we do. And we deserve better than the lies of abortion mongers that lead to murdered children and shattered lives.

But I’ve been here long enough to know you don’t care about anyone but yourself. I’m not even sure you care about that. Frankly, I don’t like you, AnninCA. You aren’t nearly as cool as you like to think you are. You aren’t detached; you talk about it far too much to be detached. And I don’t believe for a minute that it is because you are bored. You are cold and I think quite empty. Morally bankrupt…as all people who disregard human life are. I generally go out of my way to avoid people like that, so let me wish you a good night. And even though I don’t like you, I will pray for you. It’s never too late.

pannw on February 2, 2010 at 11:19 PM

Question for the men. Have you truly ever talked about this on a personal level with women in your life?

YES! Over and over with many women in many walks of life. The majority of women do not want abortion, it is their men who want to kill the child.

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:20 PM

Joe Pyne, you have no right to impose your beliefs on others.

Do you think abortion is murder?

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:21 PM

Frankly, I don’t like you, AnninCA.

Gosh, and I don’t even recognize your handle. LOL*

My take in life?

30% feel like you. They just don’t like me. 30% like me right off the bat. 30% don’t have notice, one way or the other.

I’m OK with that.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:22 PM

I totally agree with you that what you want to do with your body is up to you. and others shouldn’t impose their religious beliefs on you.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:16 PM

How come you secularists get to impose your religious beliefs on the rest of us?

Since when did secularism become the de facto law of the land?

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:22 PM

YES! Over and over with many women in many walks of life. The majority of women do not want abortion, it is their men who want to kill the child.

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:20 PM

Interesting. That’s not been my experience.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:22 PM

I think Ed should change the title of this to “Tebow ad discussion exposes the intolerance of the intolerant Right.”

Jimbo3 on February 2, 2010 at 11:23 PM

You don’t want to face the fact that your decision to abort a living, growing, functioning human being in the womb of it’s mother is despicable and monstrous. So, you equivocate, and you obsess over the issue, wishing it would go away, wishing you could get it out of your conscience, and you can’t.

Not really. You’re thinking that your world view is also the same as others.

Actually, my grandfather taught pre-med. I grew up with fetuses in jars and loads of discussion about cells, etc.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:24 PM

How come you secularists get to impose your religious beliefs on the rest of us?

what’re you babbling bout? how are we secularists imposing beliefs on you?

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:24 PM

I think Ed should change the title of this to “Tebow ad discussion exposes the intolerance of the intolerant Right.”

Jimbo3 on February 2, 2010 at 11:23 PM

Neither side has much to brag about on this issue.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:26 PM

Do you think abortion is murder?

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:21 PM

Jeepers, Wally, let me think about that for a minute …

YES!

Just as I believe slavery is wrong, just as I believe euthenasia is wrong, just as I believe lying, and stealing, and rape, and adultery is wrong.

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:26 PM

Interesting. That’s not been my experience.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:22 PM

And that sums up your problem right there.

On this issue, ignorance is not bliss!

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:28 PM

Jeepers, Wally, let me think about that for a minute …

YES!

yet, here you are, preaching on a soapbox on the internet?

doing nothing to stop the murderers?

What kind of a Christian are you…that would allow murder to take place without trying to stop it?

Oh…guess it’s not murder after all, or maybe you’re just a coward.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:29 PM

I think Ed should change the title of this to “Tebow ad discussion exposes the intolerance of the intolerant Right.”

Jimbo3 on February 2, 2010 at 11:23 PM
Neither side has much to brag about on this issue.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:26 PM

–I guess I must have missed the part in the Bible where Jesus said to demonize your enemies.

Jimbo3 on February 2, 2010 at 11:30 PM

what’re you babbling bout? how are we secularists imposing beliefs on you?

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:24 PM

Who are you?

Gore Vidal?

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:30 PM

Just as I believe slavery is wrong

great! I’m glad Christianity was never used to justify slavery. (never mind the fact that virtually all slave owners were god fearing Christians with morals!)

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:30 PM

Just got on. Looks like Anninacan has hijacked yet another thread.

katy the mean old lady on February 2, 2010 at 11:31 PM

What kind of a Christian are you…that would allow murder to take place without trying to stop it?

Oh…guess it’s not murder after all, or maybe you’re just a coward.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:29 PM

Gee, Sparky, I didn’t know I had the authority of the state behind me?

Can I go ahead and kill liars and thieves too?

Wow, what a country!

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:32 PM

And that sums up your problem right there.

On this issue, ignorance is not bliss!

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:28 PM

I’ve sure listened to a lot of women’s stories over the years.

My guess is, far more than most men. It’s not ever a clear-cut issue when you’re pregnant and it’s a problem. That’s a serious life issue for any woman.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:32 PM

Just got on. Looks like Anninacan has hijacked yet another thread.

katy the mean old lady on February 2, 2010 at 11:31 PM

Just discussing….jump on in.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:33 PM

Just as I believe slavery is wrong
great! I’m glad Christianity was never used to justify slavery. (never mind the fact that virtually all slave owners were god fearing Christians with morals!)

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:30 PM

–I think you know this, but several verses in the Bible were used to justify slavery.

Jimbo3 on February 2, 2010 at 11:33 PM

Can I go ahead and kill liars and thieves too?

so killing someone is only as bad as lying and stealing.

If you know someone was going to kill someone, you wouldn’t lift a finger to stop it?

you’re a brave upstanding christian!

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:34 PM

I do admit, I’ve really not ever been around fundamentalist Christians in my adult life. I was as a kid, but that was so long ago.

I didn’t get them then, either.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:34 PM

great! I’m glad Christianity was never used to justify slavery. (never mind the fact that virtually all slave owners were god fearing Christians with morals!)

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:30 PM

Name me one book, just one, from a nineteenth century evangelical mainstream theologian that justifies slavery.

Go ahead, I’ll wait.

Oh, and while you’re at it, give me the evidence that “virtually all slave owners were God fearing Christians.”

And, no, wiki doesn’t count. I want the names of the books and the names of the authors.

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:36 PM

The worldview of fundamentalist Christians and how that plays into politics has always been one of those, “Oh, that’s odd,” kind of deals for me.

I can sure see the liberal push-back today. It didn’t really work out too well, politically speaking.

That group is sure hated.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:37 PM

Nite to all!

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:38 PM

My guess is, far more than most men. It’s not ever a clear-cut issue when you’re pregnant and it’s a problem. That’s a serious life issue for any woman.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:32 PM

Sure it is, but that doesn’t justify killing the baby.

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:38 PM

Oh, and while you’re at it, give me the evidence that “virtually all slave owners were God fearing Christians.”

thats a fact. virtually everyone back then was christian.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:38 PM

Just discussing….jump on in.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:33 PM

As the concern troll exits

katy the mean old lady on February 2, 2010 at 11:39 PM

so killing someone is only as bad as lying and stealing.

If you know someone was going to kill someone, you wouldn’t lift a finger to stop it?

you’re a brave upstanding christian!

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:34 PM

Killing innocent life (note my use of “innocent” here, very important), lying, stealing, etc. is all sin. Sin is an affront to a Holy God, period, end of issue.

Abortion is sin, abortion is the indiscriminate killing of the unborn, and that is sin, and I will fight that till the last breath flows from my body. I hope that helps.

Thanks for purposely avoiding the issue, I knew you’d come through.

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:42 PM

OT: Looks like somebody is in trouble at the White House. Could not be happening to a more deserving person. Maybe we can get Ed or Allah to blog about it tomorrow.

PS.. Kudos to Palin is getting in some blows too

Dire Straits on February 2, 2010 at 11:44 PM

thats a fact. virtually everyone back then was christian.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:38 PM

Just as I suspected:

1. You are an ignoramous who knows zero about the history of Christianity, and the same about Christian theology.

2. You use your ignorance as a crutch to avoid thinking too hard about an issue that frankly sears at your conscience.

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:46 PM

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:38 PM

DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM

BBBBBBBANNED…when? tbd.

daesleeper on February 2, 2010 at 11:47 PM

Joe Pyne…you’re a complete tard lol.

You should know that virtually everyone in the 1800s were christians.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:48 PM

Liberal view-a: Don’t let the government come between me an my right to kill my child.

Liberal view-b: I need the government to make my health care decisions for me.

cntrlfrk on February 2, 2010 at 11:50 PM

The worldview of fundamentalist Christians and how that plays into politics has always been one of those, “Oh, that’s odd,” kind of deals for me.

I can sure see the liberal push-back today. It didn’t really work out too well, politically speaking.

That group is sure hated.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:37 PM

Yes, and it’s obvious that you will take whatever middle of the road, independent, etc. position that you can simply so that others will think you are not “odd” in any way.

It’s not working for you, politically speaking or otherwise.

thevastlane on February 2, 2010 at 11:51 PM

Joe Pyne…you’re a complete tard lol.

Look very carefully at this ladies and gentlemen, for that is the response you get when your opponent is completely out of ammo.

I know it is painful to admit your wrong there pal, but it doesn’t hurt to admit the truth, you’ll be a better man for it in the long run.

Joe Pyne on February 2, 2010 at 11:53 PM

Don’t bother with her/him Joe.

j_galt on February 2, 2010 at 11:54 PM

Ok Joe, answer me this…if most people back in 1800s weren’t Christian, what were they? atheist?

Im not holding my breath for a response.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:56 PM

Here’s several links, Joe.

http://americanhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/american_slavery_and_southern_religion

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/5264

http://docsouth.unc.edu/church/bourne/bourne.html

The third link is an ant-slavery book from 1845, which begins that “THE belief was long nearly universal, and is yet very general throughout the Christian world, that the Scriptures do, to some extent, justify human slavery, as practised in this country”

Jimbo3 on February 2, 2010 at 11:57 PM

Goodness. Even Satan himself used scripture plus lie to justify his efforts. Just because past people, who may have been Christians, supported slavery is really irrelevant. More likely is that people who were looking for a justification for their efforts, looked to the Word to see what they could use. This still happens today.

j_galt on February 3, 2010 at 12:01 AM

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:29 PM

You’re as stupid as they come!

gina4 on February 3, 2010 at 12:02 AM

Hippocrates realized abortion was homicide thus making it being anathema to responsible medicine a major theme of the Oath which bears his name. That was nearly 400 years B.C.

Hippocrates needed no warped claims of privacy or redefinition to cold clinical terms to dehumanize the offspring to facilitate convenience killing. Hippocrates guiding light was to First, do no harm. A concept requiring sufficient intelligence and self-discipline typically alien to most pro-deathers. Typical to holocausts throughout the ages and particularly last century has been to dehumanize the human. “Better off dead” typically was how enemies of humanity from Lenin to Stalin from Pol Pot to Hitler managed to get those gullible wanting convenience foremost to adopt genocidal measures.

viking01 on February 3, 2010 at 12:03 AM

I can’t even get started on this thread because it’s late I I’m too tired to take the shower that would be necessary after wallowing in the filth of the morally bankrupt Left. Disgusting human beings who murder innocent babies!

gina4 on February 3, 2010 at 12:04 AM

Im not holding my breath for a response.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:56 PM

Kindly indulge us by doing so anyway.

viking01 on February 3, 2010 at 12:05 AM

viking01 on February 3, 2010 at 12:03 AM

Right. When we devalue individual human life, all sorts of evil acts follow. The entire game of the liberal is an attempt to devalue the individual and create some false value for some ‘group.’ Then, it’s easy to sacrifice one individual for the betterment of the group. The irony is that groups don’t exist. Individual people exist. So, when you sacrifice an individual for the betterment of the group, you are actually sacrificing one individual for the benefit of some other individual.

j_galt on February 3, 2010 at 12:09 AM

Here’s several links, Joe

OK, lesson time, folks, here is what happens when you debate an issue with a secularist who thinks he actually has a kindergarten understanding of Christian history and Christian doctrine.

1. The first two links are useless. The first is by Michael Streich, who is an American historian with a profound bias against Christianity. The second is by Ekklesia, a left-wing website of the homosexual approving Anglican church. Not exactly evangelical scholarly material, and that is what I asked for.

2. The last is an ANTI-SLAVERY treatise! His statement is an opinion, and not a document historical fact. The vast majority of nineteenth century evangelical christians were anti-slavery, now that is a fact.

Just as there are “Christian” apologists for abortion, there were a few “Christian” apologists for slavery, you prove nothing.

Abortion is just as wrong as slavery is wrong. Any so-called Christian that attempts to defend either is either biblically ignorant, or self-deluded, either way, he is biblically out of touch.

Joe Pyne on February 3, 2010 at 12:12 AM

Joe Pyne on February 3, 2010 at 12:12 AM

Yep.

j_galt on February 3, 2010 at 12:14 AM

Where in the Bible did God tell people to live under Moloch and be cool about it?

Where did He promise each of us validation and praise on earth no matter what we do to each other?

Chris_Balsz on February 3, 2010 at 12:26 AM

Gosh, and I don’t even recognize your handle. LOL*

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:22 PM

:) Maybe that’s because I don’t make a habit of being obnoxious.

However, I came back to apologize for lashing out. I’m afraid seeing someone so callously dismissing the lives of 50 million tiny human beings (and counting) puts me in a foul mood. I apologize to all those in the pro-life movement who are defending the unborn with such grace. (Joe, Ted, etc…) I’m sorry for losing my temper and doing anything that could harm that mission. Flies to honey….not my strong suit. One of the reasons I don’t do a lot of posting. I generally take a moment to step back and calm down.

Here Ann. Here’s a post with my handle on it, you probably missed.
Not only do I not post often, but they tend to end up at the bottom of a page. *shrug* But what the heck…maybe you’ll feel something.

“Eleven years ago while giving an anesthetic for a ruptured ectopic pregnancy (at 8 weeks gestation), I was handed what I believe was the smallest living human ever seen. The embryonic sac was intact and transparent. Within the sac was a tiny human male swimming extremely vigorously in the amniotic fluid, while attached to the wall by the umbilical cord. This tiny human was perfectly developed, with long, tapering fingers, feet and toes. It was almost transparent, as regards the skin, and the delicate arteries and veins were prominent to the ends of the fingers. The baby was extremely alive and swam about the sac approximately one time per second, with a natural swimmer’s stroke. This tiny human did not look at all like the photos and drawings and models of ‘embryos’ which I had seen, nor did it look like a few embryos I have been able to observe since then, obviously because this one was alive! When the sac was opened, the tiny human immediately lost his life and took on the appearance of what is accepted as the appearance of an embryo at this stage of life (with blunt extremities etc.).”
-Paul E. Rockwell, M.D

A persons a person no matter how small.

…pannw on February 2, 2010 at 8:43 PM

Of course, that baby’s mother didn’t abort him. She probably mourned his death from the moment she learned her pregnancy was ectopic.

And yes, there is a difference between abortion, which is the direct and intentional killing of a human being, and surgery to save a woman’s life that has as a sad side effect, the death of an unborn child.

Now, goodnight all.

pannw on February 3, 2010 at 12:27 AM

j_galt on February 3, 2010 at 12:09 AM

It’s the oldest story in the world with the Assyrians perfecting the old-fashioned recipe for super-sizing convenience killing.

Hitler started off with the gypsies and the mental hospitals. Lenin started with those cronies most likely to take the dictatorship away for themselves. Castro did the same. Stalin had to kill off Trotsky and about 20 million more. Pol Pot had to kill off the doctors and the engineers who might suggest a better way of government. Even Idi Amin, Vlad the Impaler and Ivan the Terrible followed the same formula of killing for convenience. Same in Rwanda, Angola and in Timor. Even Peter the Great tortured and killed his own son fearful that he might be among those who would overthrow his Russian monarchy.

viking01 on February 3, 2010 at 12:28 AM

Whoa. wouldn’t want to leave Tojo and Mao off the list.

viking01 on February 3, 2010 at 12:33 AM

Dakine, once again you turn any statement a person makes about their faith to a condemnation of arrogance. I didn’t say the world is moral because of Christianity. I said without “my” faith I don’t have a reference to be moral compared to the rest of society.

Without obedience to something greater than us, are we moral then by committee? You’re saying that we can choose the ever changing line of what’s just or ethical. Or that we’ve chosen the point we’re at now. I certainly don’t think people are hard-wired moral.

Stealing, without God, isn’t stealing. What does it matter if I take your sandwich. I’m no different than a bigger animal living the law of the jungle. There’s no crime of killing in nature. A male bear doesn’t go to jail for killing a competitive male offspring and an animal doesn’t murder when he eats another animal.

If your reliance in morality is some conceived notion that man is basically desiring good from the world that he “evolved” from how do you expect any consistency? How could you even demand any standard of behavior in a world where people decide what’s moral and we all have different opinions.

The bottom line is science will never solve what are emotional issues.

And AnninCA, you’re astounding in your dismissive overbearing attitude about men not understanding the abortion issue. Every time I think you have something to say that borders on a genuine desire to understand others, you come to a thread like this and pretty much prove me wrong. That arrogant attitude that men have no place to discuss or have some misogynist motivation for their position on the abortion issue is so far left wing that I can’t even see you from here. Okay, I say you’ve never been to war, why then you have no right to comment on any war. (Why can’t libs keep their hands out of my free-fire zone)

hawkdriver on February 3, 2010 at 12:42 AM

hawkdriver on February 3, 2010 at 12:42 AM

You coffee’d up man? That was a great post! Keep safe!

daesleeper on February 3, 2010 at 12:44 AM

daesleeper on February 3, 2010 at 12:44 AM

Yep, just rolling out of the sack here to do some PT. No coffee yet though :-(

hawkdriver on February 3, 2010 at 12:52 AM

I’d like to point out that my pro-life belief is based on science, not religion.
I get a kick out of the fact that AnninCA talks about how her grandfather taught premed, you do not require a medical background to teach premed.
My father is a trained physician, was at the top of his class in medical school, etc. I grew up with plenty of infant development literature around me, I saw how the baby developed in the womb. If you put a model of a baby in the womb in front of a child I promise you none will point at it and say “look at the fetus” they say “look at the baby!” so obviously they are seeing something that other people refuse to see.
In embryology, as I learned from my father, it is taught that a life begins at conception. I heard the same thing in my highschool biology course. The question isn’t whether or not what is in the womb after fertilization is a life. What matters is whether or not you give a care that it is.
Some people just don’t care, and that’s it. They are too blinded by their own needs to see to others. That happens in everyday life too. People are too blinded by their own greed to see those in need in front of them. *shrug*

Ingenue on February 3, 2010 at 1:04 AM

Without obedience to something greater than us, are we moral then by committee?

Men generally hear the commands they wish to hear. Same with committees.

You’re saying that we can choose the ever changing line of what’s just or ethical. Or that we’ve chosen the point we’re at now. I certainly don’t think people are hard-wired moral.

hawkdriver on February 3, 2010 at 12:42 AM

A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity.
- Schopenhauer

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 1:14 AM

I totally agree with you that what you want to do with your body is up to you. and others shouldn’t impose their religious beliefs on you.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:16 PM

Ah, but that begs the question of what Anne wants to do with other people’s bodies….

Anybody up for a bit of partial birth abortion?

unclesmrgol on February 3, 2010 at 1:17 AM

I view a lot of pro-lifers like mosquitoes, always buzzing around to suck blood from people.

Ahem. See previous picture to see who really sucks blood (and brains) from other people.

My opinion? I think they need a hobby other than sticking their nose in other people’s lives so much.

The moment your side stuck their hand into my pocket and removed cash from my wallet, or forced me to help you kill children — that’s the moment I got a right to interfere with your crimes.

But, would anyone ever really pay attention to my opinion?

Just long enough to dispute it.

Heck no! Mosquitoes exist. And this issue ain’t going away in my lifetime.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:09 PM

No, it isn’t — just as it took over 300 years to eradicate the stain of slavery, it will probably take that long to eradicate the stain of abortion.

unclesmrgol on February 3, 2010 at 1:24 AM

For animals earth is hell, and men are the demons who torture them

- Arthur Schopenhauer

Yeah, that Schopenhauer, he sure has his morals straightened out, yes sir.

Joe Pyne on February 3, 2010 at 1:26 AM

We many not be able to ascertain brain activity in many individual 18 year olds, but we’ve decided to set the voting age at that level because it is a reasonable measure of adulthood in general.

Not really. It was mainly set there from “Old enough to fight, old enough to vote”.

Tests have identified brainwaves at about 8 weeks. If someone wanted to identify that point in time as the event where a person comes into being, I could agree.

dedalus on February 2, 2010 at 10:13 PM

Not an unreasonable way to look at the matter.

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 1:27 AM

Yeah, that Schopenhauer, he sure has his morals straightened out, yes sir.

Joe Pyne on February 3, 2010 at 1:26 AM

He was a logician, not a moralist.

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 1:28 AM

unclesmrgol on February 3, 2010 at 1:17 AM

That’s the crux of it all.

My patience with the “my body” speciousness is nil.

Saltysam on February 3, 2010 at 1:29 AM

If the pro-choice stance is so precarious that a story about someone who chose to carry a risky pregnancy to term undermines it, then CBS is not the problem.

Jimbo3 on February 2, 2010 at 2:23 PM

Heh.

unclesmrgol on February 3, 2010 at 1:31 AM

–Well, then. Neither side is particularly clean on this issue. I remember a bunch of boycotts by the right over movies, gay rights, etc. involving Ford, Disney, Kraft Foods, some TV and movies, etc.

Jimbo3 on February 2, 2010 at 1:22 PM

I boycotted Kraft Foods, Nabisco, and Post Cereals because they were owned by a tobacco company. Is there some other reason I should have boycotted them?

unclesmrgol on February 3, 2010 at 1:35 AM

For animals earth is hell, and men are the demons who torture them

– Arthur Schopenhauer

Self loathing is a philosopher’s vice.

Saltysam on February 3, 2010 at 1:40 AM

A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity.
- Schopenhauer

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 1:14 AM

But if a man cannot will as he wills, his will is not his will. Answer that as you will.

unclesmrgol on February 3, 2010 at 1:46 AM

He was a logician, not a moralist.

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 1:28 AM

That’s even better!

Obtaining a moral philosophy from a logician, now that’s a concept only an atheist could love.

Joe Pyne on February 3, 2010 at 1:49 AM

thats a fact. virtually everyone back then was christian.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:38 PM

Not true. Slave holding is known throughout the world, throughout history, and without religious monopoly.

The Christian faith had a profound influence upon the conscience of the entire Western realm. The abolitionist movement was a reformation of the highest order.

Saltysam on February 3, 2010 at 1:49 AM

For animals earth is hell, and men are the demons who torture them

– Arthur Schopenhauer

Self loathing is a philosopher’s vice.

Saltysam on February 3, 2010 at 1:40 AM

I care not much for a man’s religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.
- Abraham Lincoln

Man is rated the highest animal, at least among all animals who returned the questionnaire.
- Robert Brault

The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creatures that cannot.
- Mark Twain

Such is the human race, often it seems a pity that Noah didn’t miss the boat.
- Mark Twain

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 1:51 AM

“Modern atheism originated in the irrational, psychological needs of a few prominent thinkers. Subjecting the apostles of atheism to the same psychological analysis with which they attempted to debunk religious belief, Vitz reveals the source of a psychological predisposition to atheism — the absence of a good father. While psychology is not destiny, disappointment in one’s earthly father frequently leads to a rejection of God.

-Introduction to the book “Faith of the Fatherless” by Paul Vitz

Joe Pyne on February 3, 2010 at 1:58 AM

Obtaining a moral philosophy from a logician, now that’s a concept only an atheist could love.

Joe Pyne on February 3, 2010 at 1:49 AM

His “A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity.” is not a moral philosophy, nor does it pretend to be. It is simple logic.

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 1:58 AM

Vitz reveals the source of a psychological predisposition to atheism — the absence of a good father.

Joe Pyne on February 3, 2010 at 1:58 AM

What Vitz reveals is a penchant for pop psychology.

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 2:02 AM

His “A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity.” is not a moral philosophy, nor does it pretend to be. It is simple logic.

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 1:58 AM

Oh, of course, if you consider begging the question “simple logic.”

To consider anything by Schopenhauer as perspicuous is laughable.

Joe Pyne on February 3, 2010 at 2:05 AM

To consider anything by Schopenhauer as perspicuous is laughable.

Joe Pyne on February 3, 2010 at 2:05 AM

His words seems pretty clear and easy to understand to me.

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 2:12 AM

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 1:51 AM

A sort of rebuttal, or an affirmation?

Ahhhh.

Both.

Too heavy.

Saltysam on February 3, 2010 at 2:13 AM

A sort of rebuttal, or an affirmation?

Saltysam on February 3, 2010 at 2:13 AM

Look at it as a Rorschach test.

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 2:22 AM

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 2:22 AM

A stain?

Saltysam on February 3, 2010 at 2:30 AM

hawkdriver on February 3, 2010 at 12:42 AM

Now you’re just being obtuse. For as long as homo sapiens have been roaming the earth and living together in civilized societies they have entered into societal compacts with one another in order to benefit one another and the group as a whole. Stealing, killing, etc. were all discouraged to increase the betterment of the tribe, the city state, the empire, etc. This sort of societal compact long predated Christianity or any other monotheistic religion, or really any meaningful religion at all. The basic human morality that evolved over time has never really changed. Over time, religion absorbed much of this evolved societal morality and in a sense helped codify it into the formal societal compacts which have developed over the last 2,000 years or so. For you to claim that you have no moral compass without your faith is the height of hubris and arrogance. Furthermore, I find it pretty pathetic that your morality is seemingly based on a fear of everlasting hell and/or the reward of eternal salvation. I guess I have a more present and optimistic view of humanity.

ted c, you’re the poster child for the fundamentalist fire and brimstone approach to the abortion issue which will likely insure that Roe v. Wade will never be overturned. Your religious wailing has a cult-like feel to it.

dakine on February 3, 2010 at 2:57 AM

Eloquent words from some notable men, MB4. But in the end, without God, they’re just men, just words. With no higher order, I have no more compunction to follow their logic than I would any nondescript troll who haunts this place.

dakine on February 3, 2010 at 2:57 AM

Obtuse, really? You are long on the insults my friend. My point is valid and you know it. The line, when drawn by man, goes back and forth. Who are you to say where it should reside? What does it take to get man to the point where he acts no diffeent from an animal.

ted c, you’re the poster child for the fundamentalist fire and brimstone approach to the abortion issue which will likely insure that Roe v. Wade will never be overturned. Your religious wailing has a cult-like feel to it.

You can’t get an entire comment out without showing your anti-faith bigotry.

hawkdriver on February 3, 2010 at 3:18 AM

great! I’m glad Christianity was never used to justify slavery. (never mind the fact that virtually all slave owners were god fearing Christians with morals!)

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:30 PM

Dem’s fightin words.

IT was largely Christianity that proved to be the force diminishing Slavery in Europe into a non-practice.

Sadly, with the pre-crusade Islamic Offensives into Europe, they brought their ways of Slavery with them back into Europe… a pox that took centuries to reverse.

Also, mind you, that it was Muslim slavers that captured slaves in Africa to be sold to the colonies.

Also, mind you, that while the founding fathers did treat slavery with some form of tolerance, it was a reluctant one. Jefferson and many others believed that Slavery would result inevitably in conflict and disaster (and time would prove them right).

You blame Christianity itself for a sin that’s quite unchristian… when in reality other forces and weaker people are to blame.

Chaz706 on February 3, 2010 at 4:01 AM

Man is rated the highest animal, at least among all animals who returned the questionnaire.
- Robert Brault

MB4 on February 3, 2010 at 1:51 AM

That one made me laugh out loud (waking up my dog, who’d been sleeping by my feet).

AZCoyote on February 3, 2010 at 4:09 AM

Your religious wailing has a cult-like feel to it.

dakine on February 3, 2010 at 2:57 AM

Your shrill whining has a cult-like feel to it. I suggest you stop spending so much time at atheist forums. The talking points are getting old.

Grace_is_sufficient on February 3, 2010 at 5:37 AM

great! I’m glad Christianity was never used to justify slavery. (never mind the fact that virtually all slave owners were god fearing Christians with morals!)

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:30 PM

Ya’, because everyone knows that slavery was invented by the early American Christians back in 1666. Hell, it’s even in the Bible… BenHur Chapter 3 verse 4.
Your comments are nothing more than a confession of your own stupidity and misunderstanding of history. Fabulous Stupidity! 1+1=11 Kinda’ Stupidity. Every culture, religion and race since the beginning of time has been involved with slavery… and YES, Christians share in the disgrace. The White American Christian has done more than any other group in the history of man to end it.

ronnyraygun on February 3, 2010 at 6:00 AM

Pro-choice is pro-abortion is nothing but what we all knew anyway – the pro-choice emperor has no clothes on.

This stuff has moved to the morbidly silly stage. This nation has just elected a president that fully and aggressively supported the slaughter of BORN babies if they escape the abortionist’s horror chamber and argued that ‘intent” to abort has no ending.

All those phoney excuses (fetal tissue etc.)to kill inconvenient, innocent, pre-born children, have fallen by the wayside.

Our tax money is now paying for Chinese involuntary abortions -so much for a “woman’s right to choose.” The only choice they ever wanted was the choice to murder innocent children and call it a “good” thing -a “right.”

And they call themselves: Progressives when Barbarians more closely fits the acts they demand.

Don L on February 3, 2010 at 6:40 AM

The Super Bowl is not some reality-free escape zone.

Of course it is. That why people love it so much. It’s like a national holiday.

We’ll see how much you think otherwise when global warming people or whoever you don’t agree with buy their own ads.

It’s best left alone, and yes, social liberals are very intolerant. Just like social conservatives are.

Moesart on February 3, 2010 at 6:43 AM

” … We’ll see how much you think otherwise when global warming people or whoever you don’t agree with buy their own ads.

It’s best left alone, and yes, social liberals are very intolerant. Just like social conservatives are.”

Moesart on February 3, 2010 at 6:43 AM

Global warming ads have been running on television for quite some time now. They saturate magazines, buses, train stations, movies, the entertainment industry, public school, the college campuses, and on and on.

The same with homosexual advocates, advocates preaching that we should tolerate Muslims, who are members of “The Religion of Peace, Love, Tolerance, Compassion, Wisdom, Enlightenment, and Understanding,” and advocates of atheism, and Secular Humanism, etc.

They advertise and preach at many levels, yet they are tolerated, much more so than life choicers are, even though life choicers are more compassionate, caring, patient, and tolerant.

Instead of banning the global warming nonsense, opponents actually present the facts, thus debunking their myths, while pointing out the realities.

In the case of abortion, abortion choicers, AKA end life of babies, AKA Slaughter of babies choicers are intolerant and really don’t want “Choice.” They want only ONE choice, Abortion. All other choice is unacceptable.

They are hysterical, intolerant, mean spirited, and hate filled, which might explain how they can justify supporting such a repulsive, heinous act, and advocacy, as induced abortion, the killing of innocent new human beings, en masse.

William2006 on February 3, 2010 at 7:04 AM

Speaking of tolerance, vs. Intolerance, re abortion, it is justified to be intolerant of abortion.

Being intolerant towards the slaughter of innocent human beings, which is what induced abortion is, is morally equivalent to being intolerant of rape and rapists, kidnappers, pedophiles, torturers, assault and battery and those who commit them, and murder and murderers.

I have no qualms about being intolerant of that whatsoever. Such intolerance is completely justified, right, and good!

William2006 on February 3, 2010 at 7:10 AM

The left is only tolerant of Obama and the way left…good post on the double std.

FloridaMike on February 3, 2010 at 8:24 AM

hawkdriver on February 3, 2010 at 3:18 AM

thanks for the late night backup. I look forward to dismantling this individual in the future

dakine on February 3, 2010 at 2:57 AM

note to self**

ted c on February 3, 2010 at 8:28 AM

It’s a child, not a choice

datadriver on February 3, 2010 at 8:31 AM

ted c, you’re the poster child for the fundamentalist fire and brimstone approach to the abortion issue which will likely insure that Roe v. Wade will never be overturned

dakine-that’s a pretty interesting characterization of my position. I’d challenge you to substantiate it and I invite you into the world of truth. Your entry into it is going to sting and hurt just a bit, it’ll be temporary, but you’re welcomed to join us here–if truth is what you seek. I challenge you to a debate on this matter, a debate which you will lose.

ted c on February 3, 2010 at 8:32 AM

I do admit, I’ve really not ever been around fundamentalist Christians in my adult life. I was as a kid, but that was so long ago.

I didn’t get them then, either.

AnninCA on February 2, 2010 at 11:34 PM

And what does a “fundamentalist Christian” act like??? Frankly, we are just like other people….We have our likes and dislikes…I know one thing….I get sick of you on this message board like you own the place…Especially you and that guy that act like broken up lovers on here going back and forth….It is really childish…Grow up….

theaddora on February 3, 2010 at 8:40 AM

Ok Joe, answer me this…if most people back in 1800s weren’t Christian, what were they? atheist?

Im not holding my breath for a response.

Palin Steele on February 2, 2010 at 11:56 PM

Errr… I’ll take a shot. There were Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindu’s, Animists, Probably a few Zoroastrians, and assorted others.

Oh, and at the time you cite, the majority of slaves were being sold to European traders in Africa.

But don’t let facts deter a good rhetorical rant.

/Troll feeding is over, nothing to see here. Move along.

NavyspyII on February 3, 2010 at 8:48 AM

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