Audio: “We’re told not to call it another stimulus bill”

posted at 8:48 am on January 27, 2010 by Ed Morrissey

Honest leadership … open government … and the Tooth Fairy.  Breitbart and Naked Emperor News catches Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA) telling his constituents in a telephonic town hall meeting that the new stimulus bill Democrats will promote in coming weeks is “pretty much similar” to Porkulus, just smaller in scale — which isn’t exactly news, since even Democratic leadership isn’t foolish enough to think they can get another $787 billion after getting nothing more than the loss of 3.4 million jobs from the first one.  In an Orwellian admission, Sherman tells listeners that he’s been told not to call it a stimulus bill, but a “jobs bill,” even though he also admits that the jobs won’t come for years later:

Let’s focus on a couple of key points besides the name change to Flying Unicorn Skittle Droppings Jobs Bill.  Sherman says he wants the stimulus to go in a certain direction:

“I’ve been pushing for aid to state and local governments.  First, because my own state is having such severe problems.  And second, from a macroeconomic standpoint, we’re trying to have jobs now, and construction projects, for example — they talk about them being shovel ready, but even if you’re ready to start building a bridge now, a big chunk of that work is going to be done in 2013, 2014.”

Uh, no kidding — we said that last February when Democrats like Sherman insisted on handing Obama a big blank check.  Not only that, but the shovel-ready jobs are temporary anyway.  Once the bridge is built, the work is done.  Accelerating road and public construction work means less work in the near- and mid-term for those workers once the funding spike disappears.

As to his preference on spending, the first bill consisted in large part of those very block grants that Sherman wants again.  What did they do?  They kept states from doing what they should have done in 2007, which was to start reducing its bureaucracies and learn to live within their means.  California is a prime example of this.  The state legislature seems incapable of doing math and winds up spending billions of dollars more than they receive, and instead of actually cutting spending, they keep coming to Washington for more bailouts.  This, too, was entirely predictable — and I know this because I’ve been predicting it here since Porkulus passed.

The administration likes to take credit for jobs “saved or created,” but a second Porkulus with massive state grants would be saving the exact same jobs that got saved last year in state bureaucracies. Unless we want to make state bailouts a regular feature of federal budgeting, Congress needs to shut down its Porkulus-methadone clinic for junkie states that claim they just need one more fix.


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Sherman tells listeners that he’s been told not to call it a stimulus bill, but a “jobs bill,” even though he also admits that the jobs won’t come for years later:

Wash that down with a big ol’ glass of Victory Gin.

ted c on January 27, 2010 at 8:51 AM

Porkulus, just smaller in scale

Porkulite

Disturb the Universe on January 27, 2010 at 8:51 AM

It is the people’s money you are spending.

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 8:52 AM

insanity

booter on January 27, 2010 at 8:53 AM

It is the people’s money you are spending blowing, pissing through reclessly like drunken sailors.

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 8:52 AM

FIFM

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 8:53 AM

Okay, let’s just call it Porkulus again. Or Bailout, if you prefer.

DaydreamBeliever on January 27, 2010 at 8:53 AM

but a second Porkulus with massive state grants would be saving the exact same jobs that got saved last year in state bureaucracies.

D’oh!

cmsinaz on January 27, 2010 at 8:54 AM

Porkulite

Disturb the Universe on January 27, 2010 at 8:51 AM

+100

excellent

cmsinaz on January 27, 2010 at 8:54 AM

but a second Porkulus with massive state grants would be saving the exact same jobs that got saved last year in state bureaucracies. Unless we want to make state bailouts a regular feature of federal budgeting, Congress needs to shut down its Porkulus-methadone clinic for junkie states that claim they just need one more fix.

Ed, you’re making me break out my music.

ted c on January 27, 2010 at 8:54 AM

Does this spending spree have to go through congress or a czar or maybe a bipartisian task force to um, spend?
This administration is going to be one for the history books for sure and unlike Carter this president is going to take Congress with him.

What a nice guy.

ORconservative on January 27, 2010 at 8:54 AM

Words! … Just Words?, he said with the conviction of leader poised to redeem the world.

singlemalt_18 on January 27, 2010 at 8:55 AM

insanity

booter on January 27, 2010 at 8:53 AM

you got that right….they are expecting different results this time around…what a bunch of maroons…

cmsinaz on January 27, 2010 at 8:56 AM

Scaled down. So, just a couple of people from the Apollo Foundation are going to write this one?

kingsjester on January 27, 2010 at 8:57 AM

Dems think the title “stimulus” is what made Porkulus unpopular!

Well, we named the last one Porkulus.

Let’s name this one: The Bailout-the-States Bill.

That would be even less popular.

jeanneb on January 27, 2010 at 8:57 AM

I get up around seven
Get outta bed around nine
And I don’t worry about nothin’ no
‘Cause worrin’s a waste of my… time

The show usually starts around seven
We go on stage around nine
Get on the bus about eleven
Sippin’ a drink and feelin’ fine

Chorus:
We been dancin’ with Mr. Brownstone
He’s been knockin’
He won’t leave me alone
No, no ,no, he won’t leave me alone
I used ta do a little but a little wouldn’t do
So the little got more and more
I just keep tryin’ ta get a little better
Said the little better than before
I used ta do a little but a little wouldn’t do
So the little got more and more
I just keep tryin’ ta get a little better
Said the little better than before

The Axl Rose Congress

ted c on January 27, 2010 at 8:58 AM

There were bits and pieces of universal healthcare in the last porkulus, who wants to bet there will be more in porkulite?

MobileVideoEngineer on January 27, 2010 at 8:59 AM

What shovel ready jobs? Yes there were some in the House Bill but after reconciliation with the Senate Bill, at least in Louisiana and Texas, the “shovel” ready infrastructure line items amount to 25% of the money spent. The rest is for advertising and promoting by ACORNesque groups and social programs.

Especially knowing some of the names involved in SW Louisiana, there were some big payoffs to Landrieu and Jindal big behind the scenes backers.

Kermit on January 27, 2010 at 8:59 AM

Flying Unicorn Skittle Droppings Jobs Bill.

+10

Business, especially small business, creates jobs. Not government.

rbj on January 27, 2010 at 9:00 AM

Slightly OT, but pertaining to the first stimulus: It was announced today that about $40 million in recovery act funds are going to rebuild two (I think) schools in Dillon, SC. Anyone here know why this money would come from the US Department of Agriculture?

LastRick on January 27, 2010 at 9:01 AM

Lets call it: Slush Fund To Pay Off Democrat Special Interest Groups And Help States Keep Their Expensive Bureaucracies II – Electric Boogaloo.

gwelf on January 27, 2010 at 9:02 AM

if the tea party people can stop fighting with each other, then this is the very thing they organized to oppose.

kelley in virginia on January 27, 2010 at 9:02 AM

blowing, pissing through reclessly like drunken sailors.

Don’t insult drunken sailors. They spend their own money.

Bat Chain Puller on January 27, 2010 at 9:02 AM

The administration likes to take credit for jobs “saved or created,” but a second Porkulus with massive state grants would be saving the exact same jobs that got saved last year in state bureaucracies.

Do you think the Democrats even realize this?

ladyingray on January 27, 2010 at 9:03 AM

has anyone here been to Dillon SC? I just rode thru there last month & its obvious that the place is on a slow-down. but building 2 schools?

these people think that the nicer the school, the more learning goes on.

kelley in virginia on January 27, 2010 at 9:04 AM

Democrats Support More Federal Spending, Not Tax Cuts, to Stimulate Economy Because Individuals “Would Just Waste the Money on Star Wars Origami” http://optoons.blogspot.com/2009/10/democrats-support-more-federal-spending.html

Mervis Winter on January 27, 2010 at 9:05 AM

Earth to Democrats – people are just as mad about spending as they were about healthcare.

They just don’t get it.

gophergirl on January 27, 2010 at 9:05 AM

Let’s face it…….

The spenders in D.C. can spend with abandon because they know that the Federal Government can effectively seize all U.S. assets if they have to. THAT is why the Chinese are willing to lend, because they can force the assets to be collected. Same thing a banker does, if you have the assets you’ll be loaned the money.

Spend on D.C. bankruptcy awaits, and if it continues we can all say goodbye to any private property rights in this country. Could actual personal indebtedness (a form of slavery) be far behind?

PappyD61 on January 27, 2010 at 9:05 AM

Come November, should I be asked by an exit poll worker, I’m going to say my votes were based on the first stimulus, this second stimulus and all the spending in between, even if the Democrats would prefer I call it something else.

myrenovations on January 27, 2010 at 9:08 AM

blowing, pissing through reclessly like drunken sailors.

As a former drunken sailor, I take offense at that remark; I earned my tattoo and hookers money through honest, hard work.

Bishop on January 27, 2010 at 9:09 AM

“These are not the droids you are looking for….”

ted c on January 27, 2010 at 9:10 AM

has anyone here been to Dillon SC? I just rode thru there last month & its obvious that the place is on a slow-down. but building 2 schools?

these people think that the nicer the school, the more learning goes on.

kelley in virginia on January 27, 2010 at 9:04 AM

I have been there, often. As you say, it’s not exactly hopping. Which certainly explains why the building of the two new schools is not happening through a “matching funds” scenario — Dillon Co. can’t afford their half. The Denver Post article I read states all but $4 million will come from the federal govt (the USDA?) with the total price tag at $55 million. Meaning, $50 million coming from people that don’t live in SC, like you and I. And from the USDA no less.

LastRick on January 27, 2010 at 9:10 AM

Ditto, as a former drunken sailor myself–I resemble that remark…

ted c on January 27, 2010 at 9:11 AM

Anybody else get a sinking feeling when Democrats say they are going to “focus on jobs”?

forest on January 27, 2010 at 9:13 AM

OT: Will Scott Brown be at the SOTU speech tonight?

The Toyota recall is not going to stimulate the economy. I have been driving Camrys since 1987.

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 9:13 AM

Not only that, but the shovel-ready jobs are temporary anyway. Once the bridge is built, the work is done.

Ed, strictly speaking you are right but this statement is IMHO misleading. A completed infrastructure project such as your bridge leads to better transportation and communication and more productivity — in short, providing permanent benefits to the economy. If we as a nation were to agree to any sort of “stimulus” jobs package it is exactly infrastructure projects like this that I would like to fund.

Now that leaves the question of whether it is advisable for the govt to do any such “jobs” funding at all. Most of us, I believe would say no or at least only on a very limited scale. As for me, given the current people running the national government, it’s a sure bet they will pass some kind of “jobs” bill; given that, I hope at least that it will be directed toward useful stuff rather than, say, bailing out irresponsible state or local govts or increased welfare payments.

jwolf on January 27, 2010 at 9:13 AM

“I’ve been pushing for aid to state and local governments.”

Idiots. All of them. Giving money to local and state governments will never fix the economy. Lower the taxes fools. Give us our money back so we can spend it!! So business will grow and hire more people! So the tax revenue will increase and you won’t need to give money to state and local governments!

Idiots.

Rod on January 27, 2010 at 9:13 AM

I love the ad to get rid of “unwanted pests” that ran at the bottom of the vid.

Buy Danish on January 27, 2010 at 9:14 AM

The Toyota recall is not going to stimulate the economy.
OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 9:13 AM

This is an unmitigate disaster. I pity the local Toyota dealers who now have no product to sell, the manufacturing communities where production is being halted, the ad agencies who handle Toyota, and so on and so forth.

Buy Danish on January 27, 2010 at 9:18 AM

Sorry. unmitigated.

Buy Danish on January 27, 2010 at 9:19 AM

So, the original $787 billion is gone?? I thought they were saying the majority of it wasn’t going to be spent until this year??

Or am I confused?

BigWyo on January 27, 2010 at 9:19 AM

OT: Will Scott Brown be at the SOTU speech tonight?

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 9:13 AM

I hear no and there is a big stink about here in MA. Some are calling for the republican senators to wear Scott Brown campaign pins to the speech in protest.

Rod on January 27, 2010 at 9:19 AM

OT: Will Scott Brown be at the SOTU speech tonight?

The Toyota recall is not going to stimulate the economy. I have been driving Camrys since 1987.

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 9:13 AM

Unless he’s there as someone’s guest, I’m not sure. Isn’t Kirk still technically the Senator? He voted on the bipartisan committee.

As for Porkulus II: The Wrath of Con, is anyone surprised by this? The Dems have no clue what really stimulates the economy and creates private sector jobs. When Obama and Congress announced they’d be pivoting toward the economy, you knew this is exactly what they meant. More spending and more bailing out of local and state governments who are unwilling to live within their means.

Doughboy on January 27, 2010 at 9:20 AM

Ed; You are onto their spendulus program for constituents. They want to maintain this spending throughout their reign, so when their constituents have no work or supplemental income from Washington, they can blame the Republicans for the “bad economy and employment figures”.

Cybergeezer on January 27, 2010 at 9:21 AM

Saw Chuck Schumer on Morning Joe. He was talking about his brilliant plan to help create jobs, which included payroll tax cuts for small businesses and tax incentives for new hires.

I could almost swear I have heard this new, brilliant strategy before…… coming out of Republican mouths!

joedoe on January 27, 2010 at 9:22 AM

If the first was porkulus, could the second be tripe-ulus?

cyclown on January 27, 2010 at 9:23 AM

Buy Danish on January 27, 2010 at 9:18 AM

No Porkulite $$$$ for the manufacturing communities where production is being halted—-they aren’t unionized.

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 9:23 AM

Flying Unicorn Skittle Droppings Jobs Bill

Bring on the SOTU!

John the Libertarian on January 27, 2010 at 9:24 AM

So, the original $787 billion is gone?? I thought they were saying the majority of it wasn’t going to be spent until this year??

Or am I confused?

BigWyo on January 27, 2010 at 9:19 AM

No, you’re right. There’s reportedly over $500 billion left out from Porkulus I. Although I’m not sure how that’s affected after the announcement that it’s gonna cost an additional $75 billion more than they said.

Regardless, it’s obvious what the Dems are doing. They know their days in power are numbered. So they need to pass another slush fund bill before they potentially lose the House(and possibly the Senate) in November.

Doughboy on January 27, 2010 at 9:24 AM

Do these people really think we are all that really stupid? Apparently so. Now they want a porkulus to bailout fiscally irresponsible states like CA, NY and other blue states, when my state is doing ok money wise because we haven’t been liberalized enough to throw money out the window at every social problem that comes down the pike. Yep, sounds like a spending bill I could approve of, just like helping people buy a new car or refrigerator or health care. I really like the weatherization one, too.

Kissmygrits on January 27, 2010 at 9:25 AM

So let me get this straight. After the Democrats just got trashed in Masachusetts by voters who explicitly said they did not want their tax dollars used to bail out Nebraska, they are going to go out now and ask taxpayers all over the country to bail out California.

Oooooookay……..

rockmom on January 27, 2010 at 9:26 AM

Porkulus with massive state grants would be saving the exact same jobs that got saved last year in state bureaucracies.

EXACTLY! The states used the money to shore up their own tax shortfalls. Well if they thought things would “improve” under Porkulus I, just wait until the states see the REDUCED tax collections this year after an added 3+ MILLION were added to the unemployment rolls. Perhaps Sherman can get Madame Speaker to return that $116 MILLION spent on the San Francisco Bay Marsh Mouse.

GarandFan on January 27, 2010 at 9:27 AM

Let’s name this one: The Bailout-the-States Bill.

That would be even less popular.

jeanneb on January 27, 2010 at 8:57 AM

Oh heck, let’s just call it The BS Bill.

Kafir on January 27, 2010 at 9:27 AM

Oh, and all those unemployed construction workers are going to be thrilled about throwing more of their tax money at states to keep bureaucrats in their six-figure jobs.

rockmom on January 27, 2010 at 9:28 AM

Maybe we should sell California to the highest bidder and be done with that headache!

joedoe on January 27, 2010 at 9:28 AM

Let’s name this one: The Bailout-the-States Bill.

That would be even less popular.

jeanneb on January 27, 2010 at 8:57 AM

Bailout for Bureaucrats

rockmom on January 27, 2010 at 9:30 AM

As usual these guys forget where money comes from. Don’t tell me that taking money out of my right pocket and putting it in my left pocket will stimulate the economy. You just can’t fix stupid.

Mojave Mark on January 27, 2010 at 9:30 AM

Sherman tells listeners that he’s been told not to call it a stimulus bill, but a “jobs bill,” even though he also admits that the jobs won’t come for years later:


More lies,smoke and mirrors,and deceit coming from Mr. Transparency and the “Greatest Administration
EVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!”

Baxter Greene on January 27, 2010 at 9:30 AM

I wonder if they are going to read it this time before they vote…

percysunshine on January 27, 2010 at 9:31 AM

Pigletus

marybel on January 27, 2010 at 9:33 AM

Anybody else get a sinking feeling when Democrats say they are going to “focus on jobs”?

forest on January 27, 2010 at 9:13 AM

Yup.

sisterchristian on January 27, 2010 at 9:34 AM

Scaled down. So, just a couple of people from the Apollo Foundation are going to write this one?

kingsjester on January 27, 2010 at 8:57 AM

It’s scaled down because they can’t get anyone to buy Treasury Bill to pay for it. They will still use the same amount of socialists/marxists to write it though and pay them handsomely.

thomasaur on January 27, 2010 at 9:35 AM

So, the original $787 billion is gone?? I thought they were saying the majority of it wasn’t going to be spent until this year??

Or am I confused?

BigWyo on January 27, 2010 at 9:19 AM

I believe they’ve put that aside to buy your vote at a latter date.

heshtesh on January 27, 2010 at 9:43 AM

Oregon needs a little national press today. The stupid voters here just complied with the Democrats class warfare garbage and voted in a retro active tax on the “rich” to fund raises that the legislator voted in last summer.

This needs some bright hot light shone on it. Obviously people are too stupid to figure out how states like MI and CA got to be in the dire situations they are in.

But Hey, Barry’s stash is about to be replenished with “jobs” money.

ORconservative on January 27, 2010 at 9:45 AM

I hope a number of people were listening to Rush last week and Steyn the past two days as fill-in. I can attest first hand the problem is not stimulus money going to the state, the problem is the public unions are devouring all the stimulus and when they don’t have the money, non-union people are the ones fired, the job is left opened and then revised so it can only be filled by a union member.

By starving the beast, we’re making the public unions stronger as they’re taking over everything from managerial to secretarial. What needs to happen is people need to get involved in local politics and ask for due diligence to see where the money is going. Once they see how much is being absorbed by unions, the community can ask for renegotiations or transfer the service to the private sector. Otherwise, you need a Governor who is willing to break its back and as Ahnuld proved, it’s damn near impossible.

budfox on January 27, 2010 at 9:47 AM

At what point will there be a revolt of unemployed private-sector workers against fat-ass public sector workers? Fine, keep the cops, firefighters, and teachers employed. But it’s time to start paring down the number of useless paper-shufflers at every level of government. How many are there just to administer unnececesary programs?

And while I’m thinking about it, I don’t disagree with the outrage over increasing health insurance rates, but why isn’t anyone looking at the increase in the cost of attending college? As far as I’ve seen, that expense has exploded in the past two decades. Why is that? Maybe it’s time for some bus trips to college campuses to rattle some liberal professors.

BuckeyeSam on January 27, 2010 at 9:49 AM

Call your congresscritters and demand Scott Brown be present at the SOTU!

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 9:56 AM

Spend on D.C. bankruptcy awaits, and if it continues we can all say goodbye to any private property rights in this country. Could actual personal indebtedness (a form of slavery) be far behind?

PappyD61 on January 27, 2010 at 9:05 AM

Been there, done that with the SCOTUS Kelo vs. New London decision. The state can take your property for the “public good” already from the decision.

Johnnyreb on January 27, 2010 at 9:57 AM

No Porkulite $$$$ for the manufacturing communities where production is being halted—-they aren’t unionized.
OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 9:23 AM

Exactly.

Buy Danish on January 27, 2010 at 10:00 AM

These left wing fools can’t even balance their own checkbooks and they need to keep their grubby little fingers out of ours.

rplat on January 27, 2010 at 10:05 AM

jwolf on January 27, 2010 at 9:13 AM

I would agree that investing in our future through infrastructure can be good but right now we have infrastructure in-place today to accomplish the task of getting to our green jobs when they appear. We only need to maintain what we have and focus on real jobs.

Electrongod on January 27, 2010 at 10:06 AM

Porkulus II.
This time it’s for real!

Extrafishy on January 27, 2010 at 10:17 AM

The outlook for future Americans is getting worse and worse. We know that the current politicians are screwing our kids and grandkids. There will be consequences for these lying thieves.

GaltBlvnAtty on January 27, 2010 at 10:20 AM

Attn yoda:
Billboard on 72 & Pacific in Omaha, Priceless. Less than two miles from Sen Judas Nelson’s Omaha office.

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 10:29 AM

I wonder if these fools ever wonder how they get tax money from a citizenry that they appear to think are so stupid that drooling is the sum total of our accomplishments.

Cindy Munford on January 27, 2010 at 10:54 AM

Let’s just call it Robin Hood Syndrome.

We’ll rob you, your kids, your grandkids, and beyond of anything you have, to create a few temp jobs in a few years. And even if we don’t, thanks for the money. The lining in our pockets just loves the way the cash looks in them.

capejasmine on January 27, 2010 at 11:08 AM

Porkulus, just smaller in scale

Shoatulus? Porkletulus? SameOld$hitulus?

ya2daup on January 27, 2010 at 11:08 AM

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 10:29 AM

Bahahahahaha. I love it!!! LOL

capejasmine on January 27, 2010 at 11:09 AM

You just can’t fix stupid.

Mojave Mark on January 27, 2010 at 9:30 AM

But you can vote it out of office.

ya2daup on January 27, 2010 at 11:09 AM

Billboard on 72 & Pacific in Omaha, Priceless. Less than two miles from Sen Judas Nelson’s Omaha office.

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 10:29 AM

Conversation in Benji’s office: “How is it that the peasants have the $$$ to purchase billboard space? We must increases taxes to stop this disrespectful behavior!”

ya2daup on January 27, 2010 at 11:12 AM

Porkulite–it’s made from turkey!

I wonder if there will be another Paulson-esque get-down-on-bended-knee-before-Pelosi-and-beg to pass this temporary jobs bill that will cost my great-grandchildren money? You know, since my grandchildren are funding Porkulus and they haven’t even been born yet.

jedijson on January 27, 2010 at 11:21 AM

The SEIU Full Funding In Perpetuity Bill

trapeze on January 27, 2010 at 11:30 AM

The ACORN Reform Bill

trapeze on January 27, 2010 at 11:31 AM

Dems better wake up to the new reality. Or maybe they have. They can’t pull this sort of shenanigans anymore, because we can see right into their little bubble now.

The web gives the electorate the ability to participate in their government for the first time. Pols cannot deceive, obfuscate or inveigle any longer. They no longer have an opaque barrier at the beltway to hide behind.

dogsoldier on January 27, 2010 at 11:34 AM

The gov. was about to lay off thousands of workers, but the new stimulus bill allowed them to hire more…so they saved and created tens of thousands of jobs.
That’s the kind of rationale that liberals have….sheesh…

right2bright on January 27, 2010 at 11:39 AM

Methadone is used to get junkies off the drugs in the end. This is mainlining the original drug.

We are all going to die of this over dose.

petunia on January 27, 2010 at 11:54 AM

Don’t stimulate me bro!

galvestonian on January 27, 2010 at 12:16 PM

Nelson/Traitor/Pizzaman/Defeated Senator Billboard on 72nd & Pacific
OmahaConservative on January 27, 2010 at 10:29 AM

Great….then it wasn’t a rumor!!!! Ol’ Ben is probably trying to find a place to put up another billboard to say that he is thanked by 9 out of 10 people for his vote for healthcare and that Uncle Warren supports his brave vote. Good, then my Boot Ben donation is going to good use.

Maybe Ed or Allah could use this photo for future Ben Nelson threads???

yoda on January 27, 2010 at 1:23 PM

Dig deeper, Ed. Say clearly that the Federal government has no business building bridges and local roads. It should a totally private venture, but it’s too soon for that. At best, it’s a function for individual locales and States.

Why is the Federal Government involved? Because they want to ‘create jobs.’ But for every job they fund they depress at least one in the private sector – and create massive market uncertainty on top of it.

Get out of the middle. It’s inconsistent, and therefore weakens your position when trying to argue for freedom.

JDPerren on January 27, 2010 at 2:50 PM