Nader group says let’s change the First Amendment
posted at 2:35 pm on January 21, 2010 by Ed Morrissey
At least they’re advocating the use of the only legitimate mechanism to allow the government to regulate political speech:
“Public Citizen will aggressively work in support of a constitutional amendment specifying that for-profit corporations are not entitled to First Amendment protections, except for freedom of the press. We do not lightly call for a constitutional amendment. But today’s decision so imperils our democratic well-being, and so severely distorts the rightful purpose of the First Amendment, that a constitutional corrective is demanded.
“We are formulating language for possible amendments, asking members of the public to sign a petition to affirm their support for the idea of constitutional change, and planning to convene leading thinkers in the areas of constitutional law and corporate accountability to begin a series of in-depth conversations about winning a constitutional amendment.”
Mark Tapscott that they’ve finally admitted that they have some disdain for the Constitution:
In other words, since we lost under the current rules, we’re going to try to persuade enough people out there in America to change the rules to make it clear we win.
At least they are finally admitting that they view the First Amendment – which says Congress shall make no law respecting freedom of speech – as flawed. And that they judge themselves as smarter than James Madison, the author of the Bill of Rights that begins with the First Amendment (actually it was the third, but that’s another story), and the “Father of the Constitution.”
But what then would constitute a corporation? Ralph Nader’s group obviously wants to apply this to the private sector, but Public Citizen itself is a form of corporation, a non-profit. If they find corporate involvement in politics so distasteful, why not apply that restriction to all corporations? In fact, most media outlets are for-profit as well. Why should they not face regulation in order to clean up biases and misinformation, just like any other for-profit corporation?
As we see, the slippery slope on curtailing freedom of speech gets steep right from the start. Why, some people may want to limit speech rights to citizens only, and not to non-citizen residents, legal or illegal. Blogs can be dangerous, according to some people, so why not ban them at the same time?
Madison knew that making the government the arbiter of acceptable political speech meant one thing: a government that would protect its own interests. When the law-enforcement capabilities of the federal government get applied to determining the legitimacy of both the speech and the speaker, free political speech is at an end, and with it political dissent, free elections, and liberty. None of the ills that Public Citizen proposes to solve with this approach compares to the disastrous results we will see when free speech gets controlled by the government that free speech itself was intended to limit and hold accountable.
In other words, Nader and Public Citizen couldn’t shine Madison’s shoes.










Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2
This creaking old phony will get nowhere with his constitutional amendment. He has been on a vain search for relevance since his 1960′s heyday and nobody is listening. Oh, take that back, he got Phil Donahue and Michael Moore to support him in his failed presidential bid that killed Gore’s candidacy!
echosyst on January 21, 2010 at 3:25 PM
hogfat on January 21, 2010 at 3:16 PM
Your right to free speech does not protect you from the consequences of your speech. For example, if you insult my mother, I’ll punch you in the face.
Your example of yelling pig at a cop, is not universal. You won’t normally be arrested, unless you keep it up for hours, long after being asked to stop. Or unless there’s some kind of tense stand off going on, and your shouting is increasing tensions.
Yelling “fire” in a crowded theater presents a risk to human life. It could start a mad rush to the exits, which often results in people being hurt, or even killed.
If you yelled “snow storm” in the same theater, nothing would happen to you. Unless management asked you to leave because you were preventing others from hearing the movie.
MarkTheGreat on January 21, 2010 at 3:25 PM
Ralph’s novel is a better argument for putting limits on the First Amendment than anything he’s offering up here will be.
jon1979 on January 21, 2010 at 3:27 PM
That’s pretty much a myth. Buchanen took as many votes from Bush in Florida as Nader took from Gore. Even then, had the media not played loose with the facts and told everyone in the panhandle (the most Republican part of the state) that the polls were closed and Gore had won, when the polls were still open for another hour, Bush would have had another 20,000 votes, and none of the resulting fiasco would have ever happened.
MarkTheGreat on January 21, 2010 at 3:28 PM
MarkTheGreat on January 21, 2010 at 3:25 PM
Where do you draw the line?
Can you yell, “I smell smoke”, in a crowded theater?
Saltysam on January 21, 2010 at 3:30 PM
This same argument (although not factually accurate) applies to unions. Union membership routinely polls far more conservatively on political issues and candidates than the stances unions take and where unions end up spending their money. So, the Unions are actually going against their membership in their political activity.
But, just like a union, a corporation has elections to elect officers and members (shareholders) vote for representation. Also just like a union their are bylaws that provide the powers of the officers and how money can be spent, etc. And, there are reporting requirements regarding how money is spent (much more onerous and enforced for corporations than for unions) and shareholders have much more power to challenge corporation actions through lawsuits than union members have against their union.
So, using the above argument, unions have much less right to participate in political speech than corporations.
Monkeytoe on January 21, 2010 at 3:31 PM
Dear Ralph Nader,
GO TO HELL.
Sincerely, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams
cc: King George III
MB4 on January 21, 2010 at 3:33 PM
Libel and slander are both prohibited. There are many crimes that can be committed using the instruction of the spoken word. What is protected is the expression of political ideas in whatever form.
pedestrian on January 21, 2010 at 3:34 PM
Right, corporations have too much money, so their speech should be regulated, to avoid giving them too much weight. Then, people who make above the average incomes should also be regulated in terms of what they can or can’t say, because they have too much power. Then, avowed members of disfavored political parties should have their speech carefully regulated, because they are ideologues, who have only their own partisan interests at heart. Finally, all control over speech should be vested in a commission run by Nader and his organization. He’ll tell us what to think.
morganfrost on January 21, 2010 at 3:38 PM
Fe-fe, fi-fi, fo-fo, fum
I smell smoke in the White House auditorium
Obama Brown, Obama Brown
He’s a clown, that Obama Brown
He’s gonna get caught
Just you wait and see
(Why’s Hotair always pickin’ on me?)
That’s him yet again dithering on his knees
I know that’s him
Yeah, from 7 come 11
Down in the Saudi King’s gym
Obama Brown, Obama Brown
He’s a clown, that Obama Brown
With his mom jeans down, he’s gonna get caught
Just you wait and see
(Why’s Hotair always pickin’ on me?)
Who’s always dithering on employement’s fall
Who’s always goofing in the hospital hall
Who’s always at the economy throwing a spit ball
Guess who (who, me?) yeah, you!
Who walks in the White House auditorium, cool and slow
Who calls the Founding Fathers’ Constitution, Trash-O
Obama Brown, Obama Brown
He’s a clown, that Obama Brown
With his mom jeans down, he’s gonna get caught
Just you wait and see
(Why’s Hotair always pickin’ on me?)
MB4 on January 21, 2010 at 3:38 PM
Saltysam,
Traditionally constitutional rights end when you are endangering someone else’s rights or are threatening to cause physical harm to others. So, the age old example of yelling “fire” in a crowded theater is that you have no right to do that if you don’t truly believe there is a fire b/c doing so will likely cause immediate harm to others based on panic that would ensue.
Or in another example, pro-life protestors are not usually permitted to block access to abortion clinics because they are then infrining on others rights to enter the clinc. Time/place/manner restrictions on speech are usually based on the extent of infringing on someone else’s rights. It’s a weighing of interests of right versus right.
But, you are arguing apples and oranges. the very limited restrictions on free speech apply to everyone – they are not based on the speaker’s status – for instance nobody (or corporation) is entitled to yell “fire” in a crowded theater. the rule is not that some people can do it and some people cannot do it.
Instead, you are arguing for censoring speech based on the status of a speaker (i.e., for profit company).
Monkeytoe on January 21, 2010 at 3:39 PM
Good luck with that one, Ralph. But as Ed says, at least he’s addressing the issue honestly, legitimately. That’s worth a lot nowadays.
petefrt on January 21, 2010 at 3:40 PM
The dem reaction to all of this is telling.
Last time I checked, there were plenty of lefty corporations out there with hefty balance sheets.
Why are they so worried?
At least this way it’s out in the open, not having money laundered through “bundlers” and other 3rd parties.
Oh, wait…
reaganaut on January 21, 2010 at 3:41 PM
As a follow-up to my last comment – time/place/manner restrictions are typically tailored so that they restrict the speech as little as feasibly possible. totally restricting corporations’ ability to engage in any political speech does not meet that standard (obviously, that would not matter is amendment stupid-nader were ever enacted).
Monkeytoe on January 21, 2010 at 3:42 PM
pedestrian on January 21, 2010 at 3:34 PM
Well, if I think I smell smoke, and it leads to a stampede, and someone dies, and I lose my entire life savings defending myself and serve time in jail for speaking my mind anyway..
…what’s the next person to do when they think they smell smoke?
Saltysam on January 21, 2010 at 3:43 PM
Monkeytoe on January 21, 2010 at 3:39 PM
I’m just being a smart ass, I should have added a “/s”.
Thanks for the essay though! ;-)
Saltysam on January 21, 2010 at 3:47 PM
If you do it in a way that doesn’t cause a panic.
If you use your freedoms to hurt other people, then they have the right to seek compensation. To use an old saying:
Your right to swing your fists ends where my nose begins.
MarkTheGreat on January 21, 2010 at 3:48 PM
Jeezus. If the dumb@$$ wants a Constitutional amendment modifying an amendment, why not go for a really good one and offer an amendment abolishing the 16th? F’n idiot.
Dominion on January 21, 2010 at 3:49 PM
Hee Hee Hee.
Saltysam on January 21, 2010 at 3:51 PM
Monkeytoe on January 21, 2010 at 3:39 PM
If there actually is a fire in a crowded theater, and you yell fire, you will not be prosecuted, because the danger presented to the patrons by the fire outweighs the danger presented to them by the panic you may or may not cause by yelling fire.
MarkTheGreat on January 21, 2010 at 3:51 PM
They’ll do what you should have done, confirmed that there actually was smoke, and it was coming from an actual fire before you start yelling.
Additionally, even if there was a fire, if there was a way to get everyone to leave the theater without causing a panic, you could still be liable.
MarkTheGreat on January 21, 2010 at 3:54 PM
Nader should shut up … the irony
J_Crater on January 21, 2010 at 3:55 PM
I’m probably getting really silly by extending this analogy too far but:
If somebody deliberately created something that looked like a fire, the person who saw it then yelled fire, and people got hurt getting out of the theater.
The person who yelled fire would not be prosecuted, because he did what any reasonable person would do. The person who created the fake fire would be the one prosecuted.
MarkTheGreat on January 21, 2010 at 3:57 PM
Nader sees for-profit corporations as his enemies. He wants to silence his enemies.
This is nothing new.
29Victor on January 21, 2010 at 3:57 PM
Nader has gone senile.
GarandFan on January 21, 2010 at 3:58 PM
Should be able to.
The “Fire!” in a crowded theater meme, is not really a freedom of speech issue. Its not a form of expression..its a call to action.
Itchee Dryback on January 21, 2010 at 4:03 PM
This sentence appears to me to be saying that the group wants Congress to be able to establish a religion for corporations and force them to practice it. I wonder what religion they want corporations to adhere to.
Ha We on January 21, 2010 at 4:04 PM
He wants government to regulate corporations but not allow corporations to defend themselves by appealing to the voting public.
How fascist is that?
29Victor on January 21, 2010 at 4:05 PM
BTW, is Hot Air owned by a corporation? Is it non-profit? Would it be considered part of “the press?”
29Victor on January 21, 2010 at 4:07 PM
Ralph Nadar, enough already, drop dead.
BottomLine5 on January 21, 2010 at 4:09 PM
I think you’re right.
I just can’t believe I thought this guy was really something, back in the days of yore when I was a leftie liberal.
What the heill was I thinking???
Itchee Dryback on January 21, 2010 at 4:11 PM
Professional tards re-writing the Bill of Rights.
What could go wrong?
MNHawk on January 21, 2010 at 4:14 PM
Communist TURD!!! Take a one-way trip to Cuba or N. Korea you blathering idiot!!!
jgdp on January 21, 2010 at 4:14 PM
I say, let the crazy uncle talk.
PappaMac on January 21, 2010 at 4:14 PM
That is a great point. Would Captain Ed, Allah, & Michelle have to shut up, if Michelle consolidates all her ventures into a corporation, like many people do?
MNHawk on January 21, 2010 at 4:17 PM
Though I take umbrage with your contracted pejorative, I agree with your overall point. For some the Constitution is just a reminder, a sticky-note. Remember this example?
The Race Card on January 21, 2010 at 4:29 PM
Leftist statist progressive national socialists hate free speech… Why, someone might say something about them they don’t like! You can’t criticize the emperor, after all!
wildcat84 on January 21, 2010 at 4:32 PM
Nader nears nadir.
The Race Card on January 21, 2010 at 4:32 PM
Actually, if you are going to repeal an amendment like that, we should repeal the 19th. You can almost draw a line right there marking the beginning of the demise of the United States.
wildcat84 on January 21, 2010 at 4:36 PM
I didn’t think it was possible, but they’ve actually come up with an idea that’s infinitely worse than ObamaCare/cap-and-trade/card check/TARP I&II put together.
Hey Ralph, how would you deal with that pesky “Freedom of Association” nonsense?
What a jackass.
russcote on January 21, 2010 at 4:39 PM
I hope he rear ends a Pinto….
right2bright on January 21, 2010 at 4:44 PM
I don’t mean it as that, as I don’t put “Re” in front of it, for that reason.
I’m open to another all-encompassing term, for those that seem to dumb down, and destroy everything they touch, from the economy, to schools, to government, to newspapers, ect.
Besides, spell Democrat backwards, toss aside a few letters, what do you get?
MNHawk on January 21, 2010 at 4:47 PM
I believe the use of this analogy came from an actual Supreme Court justice writing the majority opinion denying the right to distribute flyers opposing the draft in WW1. I’m not sure about that, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
How is that yelling fire in a theater? I thought it was distinctive from political speech.
Well, that sounds good, but I believe the “actual” analogy was used to suppress political opposition to engage in one of the stupidest wars ever, resulting in a series of events that would make the 20th century the most violent and bloodiest of all.
Saltysam on January 21, 2010 at 4:48 PM
I am beginning to suspect that Nader is as crazy as sh1thouse rat.
TheSitRep on January 21, 2010 at 4:53 PM
I’d respect you more if you didn’t try to rationalize your own chosen words.
The Race Card on January 21, 2010 at 4:57 PM
A call to action is a form of expression. A call to action is speech.
How would you describe this call to action:
Vote for Scott Brown!!!!
Saltysam on January 21, 2010 at 5:02 PM
poorly worded
The Race Card on January 21, 2010 at 5:07 PM
Just when I am feeling particularly good (smug, really) this week, what with all the good news since Tuesday night, Ed had to link to both Ron Paul and Nader.
Yikes.
Sir Napsalot on January 21, 2010 at 5:12 PM
Nader, poor fool, will trust Obama before Madison.
snaggletoothie on January 21, 2010 at 5:24 PM
Will this man never go away?
jeanie on January 21, 2010 at 5:27 PM
No he hasn’t. He’s been a real dumbass for as long as I can remember him being around.
Oldnuke on January 21, 2010 at 5:30 PM
Ahem….my previous post:
Breaking news today:
It is with the greatest regret, on behalf of our Board, that we must announce that Air America Media is ceasing its live programming operations as of this afternoon, and that the Company will file soon under Chapter 7 of the Bankruptcy Code to carry out an orderly winding-down of the business.
http://airamerica.com/
Chuckle…
percysunshine on January 21, 2010 at 5:32 PM
I really don’t get the anger from the left over this decision from the SCOTUS, is it because now the Dems and the Repubs can play by the same rules? That all the money George Soros was funneling to Dem candidates will no longer give them an unfair advantage?
Rbastid on January 21, 2010 at 5:36 PM
Not me, I hope a restored corvair crushes his Prius.
Oldnuke on January 21, 2010 at 5:36 PM
My dad had a spyder. Loved that car!
JusDreamin on January 21, 2010 at 6:25 PM
Gore would never have needed to win Florida if he hadn’t been thoroughly rejected by the voters of his own home state.
It would have also helped him to have won West Virginia and his boss’s state of Arkansaw.
Del Dolemonte on January 21, 2010 at 6:44 PM
emphasis “for profit corporations” wtf, if NOT for-profit corporations ONLY then might go along with it. if ALL corporations then might go along with it because either of these later would take out moveon and the unions would they not?
mathewsjw on January 21, 2010 at 7:16 PM
This little incident with Ralph ‘Media-ho’ Nader is a perfect example of why, for the purposes of anyone understanding what you believe to be just and true, it is completely useless to describe yourself as a ‘libertarian’.
Knott Buyinit on January 21, 2010 at 7:28 PM
Just a point: Unions are for profit – it is the reason for their existence. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
OldEnglish on January 21, 2010 at 7:28 PM
Nice one Ralph. So GE can campaign for greenies 24×7 on their NBC family of networks, but Exxon will have to buy their own news organization if they want to debunk.
MJBrutus on January 21, 2010 at 7:54 PM
Specter/Nader 2012! The Coo Coo Party
MCGIRV on January 21, 2010 at 8:36 PM
“Shining Madison’s shoes”, is that some oblique racist comment about Mr. Obama? /sarc.
eaglewingz08 on January 21, 2010 at 8:57 PM
This is an intriguing tidbit of historical information. Anyone have a link for further inquiry???
auzerais on January 21, 2010 at 10:26 PM
Just as Bill Clinton’s rich contributors put an end to the notion that “only Republicans are rich,” I fully expect many folks to be surprised to find out that all corporations aren’t conservative or Republican.
J_Crater on January 22, 2010 at 10:12 AM
Well said!
What he missed was the first amendment presumes that a free people are also free to make up their own minds based upon what they hear. So what Nader is really doing is not attacking the corporations to muzzle them – - he is trying to codify in the constitution underlying contempt for peoples’ intelligence and free will.
Isn’t this guy scheduled to head for the pearly gates soon anyway?
kens on January 22, 2010 at 10:13 AM
Progressives: unsafe at any speed.
At least Nader’s quixotic 2000 campaign stopped Al Gore.
After that, he should have returned to his real work of pushing for product safety, having done the best he could in the political realm.
As for limiting the First Amendment- STFU!
profitsbeard on January 22, 2010 at 10:14 AM
Hey, The SCOTUS ruled exactly the way that the ACLU amicus brief had suggested.
J_Crater on January 22, 2010 at 10:29 AM
I’m not sure how you believe that counters my argument. Simply b/c the analogy was used for a bad decision does not make the analogy less bad – or do you want people to be free to “yell fire in a crowded theater” when there is no fire?
It also does not undermine my point that upheld limitations on speech are time/place and manner limitations allowed to keep one person’s speech from infringing on the rights of others – not total censorship, and those time/place/manner limitations must be narrowly drawn to restrain the speech the least.
What the left is arguing for here is the total cencorship of a group of individuals (a corporation). How they beleive that is not wrong is beyond me.
Monkeytoe on January 22, 2010 at 12:38 PM
Not really. The constitution cannot grant or take away rights, it can only recognize rights that exist naturally. No one can legitimately take away a fundamental right, other than possibly God (and even He better tread carefully in these areas – He’s already under suspicion of having RINO tendencies after last presidential election).
RINO in Name Only on January 22, 2010 at 12:39 PM
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2