Plug in cars won’t pay off for consumers for 15 years

posted at 3:45 pm on January 12, 2010 by Ed Morrissey

The Obama administration wants to push plug-in electric cars as a means of saving energy, even while it contemplates burdening electricity producers with heavy penalties for using coal and other fossil fuels.  That would increase the cost of driving, but even without that kind of price pressure on energy, plug-in cars would be a bad bet for consumers.  The extra costs of the batteries alone will take 15 years to pay off from any savings on gasoline, according to the Detroit News:

As automakers aggressively pursue electric vehicles, a study released today shows the cost targets behind the plans are unlikely to be achieved, making it hard for consumers to recoup the extra cost of buying electric.

The study by Boston Consulting Group, released at an Automotive Press Association event in Detroit today, concludes the cost of electric vehicles is unlikely to drop to the $250 per kilowatt/hour threshold that is cited by many carmakers for these vehicles to be competitive in price. That benchmark is not possible without a major breakthrough in battery technology, and no such breakthrough is on the horizon, said Xavier Mosquet, the Detroit-based leader of BCG’s automotive group.

As a result, the payback time for an all-electric vehicle in the U.S. is about 15 years, and for an extended-range vehicle such as the Chevrolet Volt it would be 19 years, the study finds.

This is something to bear in mind while Obama launches his “green jobs” initiative.  We will spend $2.3 billion to fund 17,000 temp jobs in order to unlock the key to making this technology more efficient.  However, as Daily Tech noted last week, those breakthroughs aren’t even on the horizon, and notes that most people don’t have kind words for the long-term feasibility of plug-ins:

And it’s not just BCG that is predicting doom and gloom for the electric vehicle industry. DailyTech reported in late December that the National Research Council (which is funded by the U.S. Energy Department) also didn’t have too many kind words to say about the feasibility of electric vehicles. In addition, the relatively small $2.4 billion that the Obama administration has already funneled into the electric vehicle market would have to be expanded to hundreds of billions of dollars for the vehicles to proliferate in the marketplace.

With both of these studies coming to the forefront within weeks of each other, it’s hard not to look back at comments Audi of America President Johan de Nysschen made in September 2009. He commented on the Volt’s high asking price, stating, “No one is going to pay a $15,000 premium for a car that competes with a (Toyota) Corolla. So there are not enough idiots who will buy it.”

With regards to pure electrics, he added that they are “for the intellectual elite who want to show what enlightened souls they are.” More recently, de Nysschen commented that “paying customers to drive your cars is not sustainable,” in reference to the aforementioned $7,500 tax credit.

What will it take to make plug-ins more economically feasible?  Unfortunately, the only way to “bend the cost curve” in a manner that makes plug-ins more palatable for consumers is to have government intervene to make all of the other options so costly as to push people into the plug-ins, as the Detroit News reports:

For consumers to break even on their electric car purchase, one of the following things must happen:

• There is a chemistry breakthrough that keeps material costs the same while creating a battery that can store twice as much energy, reducing the cost from $400 per kW/hr to $215.

• A new $7,700 government incentive is offered.

• Owners triple the number of miles they drive annually so the extra cost pays for itself.

• Oil prices increase from $100 a barrel to $375 a barrel.

• A 210 percent incremental gasoline tax is implemented.

In other words, the only way this works is either a miracle breakthrough on something we’re not even approaching yet, or government taxes the hell out of all the other consumer options.  Don’t be surprised to see the gas taxes approach proposed by Congress or the White House in the coming months — while they still can pass it themselves.

Blowback

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I have a Toyota Highlander now. I’ve hauled teenagers for years to camp, a volunteer gig. This last month, I moved to TX, and the car was loaded up.

I got my use out of it, in other words.

AnninCA on January 12, 2010 at 4:53 PM

There is a magazine known as “Car and Driver”, and another known as “Road and Track”. I am unaware of “Car and Road”.

I’ll help you become a conservative, but let’s take the small steps first, like breathing through your mouth, before we step it up to car talk.

BobMbx on January 12, 2010 at 4:20 PM

LOL*

OK. It’s the magazine where they test drive cars.

Peterson is the publisher. Do I earn kudos for knowing that?

:)

AnninCA on January 12, 2010 at 4:54 PM

Just for the record, I do know what a point guard does on the floor. :)

AnninCA on January 12, 2010 at 4:55 PM

Living in San Antonio in the early 90’s we had a 105+ heat wave over 2 weeks.
I rode my bike to work at 2pm about 8 miles.
I swear I almost died.
My boss would shake his head & ask if I needed to go to the hospital.
But think of it-obesity would not be a problem.

Badger40 on January 12, 2010 at 4:51 PM

I just moved to Galveston. I swear, I’m nervous about the humdity and heat factor.

Will I die?

I’m so spoiled. Bashing CA is fun stuff, but you cannot possibly beat the weather. Even triple digits isn’t awful since it’s dry.

AnninCA on January 12, 2010 at 4:57 PM

Assuming of course you won’t pass out on a 5 mile ride in 100 degree weather then the following will work.

chemman on January 12, 2010 at 4:45 PM

I recently priced some small Chinese made electric vehicles. They claimed a speed of up to 40mph with about a 75 mile range per charge. They had a little Jetson-like dome top that rolled open and closed and they had a guide on how far to have it open in the spring, full open in summer, then part open again in the fall. Closed completely in the winter, of course.

That’s your climate control.

Oh, and it weighed a whopping 350 pounds. Roughly the weight of the set of dual wheels on the back of a semi trailer.

cntrlfrk on January 12, 2010 at 5:00 PM

And all this time I just thought it was a Big Oil conspiracy that kept us from the panacea that is electric transportation.

jdpaz on January 12, 2010 at 5:01 PM

Even this analysis is WAY too optomistic.

Electric cars’ batteries will never last long enough to achieve payback. Not only that, but the availability of replacement batteries is highly questionable at best, since there is only minimal standardization and not much demand.

Chances are good that it will be cheaper to junk an electric car than to replace the batteries. Besides the raw expense of the batteries, the replacement is a dangerous and time-consuming (read EXPENSIVE) task.

Liberals can never do life-cycle analyses correctly because they refuse to look at the consequences of the changes they want to make. This is why they are surprised that the Ethanol market is collapsing and windmill companies are going broke.

landlines on January 12, 2010 at 5:02 PM

And all this time I just thought it was a Big Oil conspiracy that kept us from the panacea that is electric transportation.

jdpaz on January 12, 2010 at 5:01 PM

Yeah.

Sen. Boxer is planning on Chairing a review committee for the reform of the laws of physics. The goal, she said, is to update existing laws to create competition, choice, and jobs in the electric car industry by removing barriers to growth and innovation.

BobMbx on January 12, 2010 at 5:06 PM

AnninCA on January 12, 2010 at 4:53 PM

As uncool as it would be I would have a mini-van again in a heartbeat. I am over the standard transmission in my Mustang.

Cindy Munford on January 12, 2010 at 5:07 PM

Sen. Boxer is planning on Chairing a review committee for the reform of the laws of physics. The goal, she said, is to update existing laws to create competition, choice, and jobs in the electric car industry by removing barriers to growth and innovation.

BobMbx on January 12, 2010 at 5:06 PM

I don’t see why that would be so hard to do since they apparently can control the weather as well.

cntrlfrk on January 12, 2010 at 5:08 PM

Rush was right.

batterup on January 12, 2010 at 5:12 PM

Can you say “rolling blackouts”?
Fossil fuel is an energy source as it required no intervention from man to produce it.
Electricity is an energy carrier that has to be produced by some other source of energy.
Electric cars remove the energy source from the vehicle and replaces it with an energy carrier and must be stored (batteries). This has the advantage of allowing all sorts of energy sources to produce electricity but still the electricity must be delivered to your vehicle. Our current power grid is in no way able to accommodate that. If a hot summer day can cause rolling brownouts when A/Cs are turned on, think of what happens when everyone gets home and plugs in their cars at the same time. Add the fact that if we do increase the capability of our power grid, it’s going to be an eye sore and in some areas it already is.
You may have solved the problem of automobiles being little polluters but you haven’t solved how to produce the electricity in a clean matter.
It’s a cool idea but we have a long way to get there and it will never replace having an energy source in you gas tank for those long trips. Two types of systems must be maintained and two versions of automobiles will have to be maintained in your garage.

Electrongod on January 12, 2010 at 5:16 PM

Cars aren’t electic for a reason.

Or rather, for dozens of reasons.

notagool on January 12, 2010 at 5:24 PM

Will I die?

AnninCA on January 12, 2010 at 4:57 PM

At least you have the Gulf to escape to.
I loved living in TX.
It’s awesome there.
But if you hate bugs-well- I won’t try & scare you.
Just don’t look too closely at creeping & crawling things.
Another reason to love ND-harsh winters-no bugs.

Badger40 on January 12, 2010 at 5:30 PM

In other words, the only way this works is either a miracle breakthrough on something we’re not even approaching yet

Look to the military for that answer. Oshkosh makes a hybrid electric drive system that uses no batteries.

The system has no batteries, using ultracapacitors for energy storage instead.

BDU-33 on January 12, 2010 at 5:32 PM

It’s infuriating to see these cars referred to as “zero emission vehicles”. Yeah, except for all that coal we burn to produce the electricity.

Doughboy on January 12, 2010 at 4:15 PM

California prides itself on having brought little to nothing on line for generating electricity in recent decades. Clean and green, you know. However, they were perfectly happy to have capacity built in other states and transmitted to them. So they maintained their purity by exporting their pollution over the state line.

ya2daup on January 12, 2010 at 5:41 PM

Look to the military for that answer. Oshkosh makes a hybrid electric drive system that uses no batteries.

The system has no batteries, using ultracapacitors for energy storage instead.

BDU-33 on January 12, 2010 at 5:32 PM

UltraCaps are great as temporary storage devices as they can be charged and discharged very quickly. Much faster then chemical batteries. But ultracaps have a leak rate of 3%/day. They wouldn’t be considered as the primary storage device but only for those braking and accelerating demands during city driving. That’s where they excel.

Electrongod on January 12, 2010 at 5:45 PM

I can’t think of a single emergency scenario where I would be grateful that I had an electric car.

Mord on January 12, 2010 at 4:31 PM

LOL… yeah! Cause when I hit a Zombie with my After market SuperCharged Durango? It stays down…

In one of these clown cars? Heck… you’d probably bounce off da Zombie!

Romeo13 on January 12, 2010 at 5:48 PM

Or they could get rid of the CAFE standards (which don’t work anyway) and just let everyone buy the car that they want.

MarkTheGreat on January 12, 2010 at 4:17 PM

Or do like Toyota, et al do, and pass on the fine in the cost of the car. Oh, wait, Detroit cars are already at a cost disadvantage vis a vis “foreign” cars.

LarryD on January 12, 2010 at 5:49 PM

I say lets develop transporters of the Star Trek variety. No need for transportation fuels. You don’t even need to go to the grocery store. Just hop on the internet, pick your items on-line, and bbbzzzzzzt!, it appears right there on the pad.

BobMbx on January 12, 2010 at 4:27 PM

You’d better believe there are people working on it. Progress is s-l-o-w, last I heard they’d successfully beamed a single atom, but it has to start somewhere. And whoever gets a practical model working first has the potential to get a place in history books, as well as get filthy rich.

Dark-Star on January 12, 2010 at 5:50 PM

You’d better believe there are people working on it. Progress is s-l-o-w, last I heard they’d successfully beamed a single atom, but it has to start somewhere. And whoever gets a practical model working first has the potential to get a place in history books, as well as get filthy rich.

Dark-Star on January 12, 2010 at 5:50 PM

There’s a new show staring that Japanese scientist who’s on so many science shows these days. Title has something to do with Science Fiction Tech. He comes up with plans to make all kinds of science fiction gadgets. He pretty much stays with current theories, but doesn’t worry about whether the technology is within our grasp yet. This weeks show, he’s gonna design a light saber. A few weeks ago he “designed” a transporter.

MarkTheGreat on January 12, 2010 at 5:55 PM

And just where is all of this electricity going to come from? Most is made from coal which chugs way more into the air than driving a car does. We cannot update our grids now to handle anything new like the wind power so what makes dipwad think that the whole country can plug in their cars?

He is stupid, and this idea is stupid. Americans will NEVER drive the little fart buster cars they do in Europe. Americans do not live in little villages where they spend their entire lives. We DRIVE! Just the city limits of Houston alone is larger than most countries in Europe! We get on freeways in bumper to bumper traffic with 18 wheelers and we need cars we will not get crushed in when we wreck!

Sure, lets just shut down our whole country and get on a frickin donkey and ride around like they do in 3rd world countries. That’s how Obama and the other commies want us to live!

Start using the power we have here in oil, nukes, and natural gas and leave us alone dems! I sear to God if we ever get these rainbow, unicorn dreamers out of here I am going to slug anybody that ever mentions voting for a progressive again!

patriotparty1 on January 12, 2010 at 5:57 PM

MarkTheGreat on January 12, 2010 at 5:55 PM

MUST SEE! (/geek craze)

Dark-Star on January 12, 2010 at 5:57 PM

The peasants will die in droves.

Badger40 on January 12, 2010 at 4:48 PM

For most of the people pushing this stuff, that’s a feature, not a bug.

MarkTheGreat on January 12, 2010 at 5:57 PM

MUST SEE! (/geek craze)

Dark-Star on January 12, 2010 at 5:57 PM

Wish I could remember which network (might be SyFy (god I hate that spelling)), but after a full day of work, I just can’t pull it in.

MarkTheGreat on January 12, 2010 at 5:58 PM

And for anyone else that is listening, when was the last time you had your car sit for a couple months only to hear the “click, click” from your starter and then yell out profanity because you will be late for work?
Rechargeable batteries have a leak rate. You pay to charge them up and if you don’t use them in a timely manner, they will leave you stranded and money spent for charging..twice.
Try driving your gasoline car with a pinhole in the tank. As long as you drive it every day, you will loose very little money. Keep it in storage for a month and you lost your investment in gasoline.
You can store a 5 gallon can of gasoline for a couple years without much degradation in quality but you can’t store a gallon of electricity. Your at the mercy of the power company.

Electrongod on January 12, 2010 at 6:12 PM

For everyone who touts Hybrid cars I suggest you watch Top Gear.

There was an episode where they tested a Hybrid going 80 MPH vs a BMW M3 going 80 MPH, the BMW got better fuel economy.

They also went through the process of creating the special batteries for Hybrid cars, it sure as hell isn’t a green process.

Rbastid on January 12, 2010 at 6:13 PM

I own a big honkin diesel Super DUty which is economical for me because it has a 16,000 engine life. Thats over 600,000 miles for my driving. I also own a VW Tdi Jetta, same reason. I drive cars till they completely fail. However the reason electrics are a joke to me is my daily driver, a mint restored 61 VW Beetle. 40 hp engine, runs 65 mph all day, returns almost 30 mpg, I can rebuild the engine on the dinner table, the car is cool and I can fix ANYTHING on it with JB Weld or duct tape. I’ve owned it for 22 years and will drive it till I die. It will be around long after the last Prius melts into the dirt and the Chevy Volt is in a museum.

Just my $.02

redneckjoe on January 12, 2010 at 6:27 PM

100 million people return home from work and plug in their cars, what happens?

After Obama shuts down the coal industry what happens?

allrsn on January 12, 2010 at 6:49 PM

Electric cars’ batteries will never last long enough to achieve payback. Not only that, but the availability of replacement batteries is highly questionable at best, since there is only minimal standardization and not much demand.

landlines on January 12, 2010 at 5:02 PM
—–
I recall Milwaukee (as in “power tools”, not as in “Wisconsin) did an electric car for shows. They used racks of battery packs from Milwaukee cordless power tools instead of a single “giant brick”.

If I still had a commute that required a car, I’d look at buying a used Prius and having it converted to pluggable. It can be done (http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/Prius_PHEV) and while it voids the warranty, on a *used* Prius that’s hardly a major concern.

Mew

acat on January 12, 2010 at 6:59 PM

There is a chemistry breakthrough that keeps material costs the same while creating a battery that can store twice as much energy, reducing the cost from $400 per kW/hr to $215.

I don’t know why this is so improbable. They are working on technology that will replace the graphite nano-tubes in the anodes of lithium-ion batteries with silicon nano-tubes. This would result in a 10-20x improvement in capacity over current best technology. It’s difficult to predict when this will come into production, but I don’t think there are any theoretical reasons it won’t work, it’s mostly a matter of engineering at this point, and those just take time to work out.

Socratease on January 12, 2010 at 7:30 PM

They also went through the process of creating the special batteries for Hybrid cars, it sure as hell isn’t a green process.

Rbastid on January 12, 2010 at 6:13 PM

That is the truth!

4shoes on January 12, 2010 at 7:39 PM

Uhm … can anyone mention to me any technological revolution which was successful which required consumers to accept a higher cost for inferior performance over an existing technology?

Because – I can’t think of a single one.

This is why you must be an idiot to be a Democrat and believe in this unicorn dust. Electric Cars COST MORE. They don’t go as fast, or as far. They do not accelerate on par with today’s internal combustion vehicles.

They are INFERIOR to internal combustion vehicles.

And, by the way – that stuff going through the “plug” to charge your electric …

ain’t free.

And, by the way – how many electric plants out there are coal powered? They’re going away if Obama has his way. In fact – that juice in your wall socket may soon rival the cost of gas if Democrats have their way.

HondaV65 on January 12, 2010 at 9:31 PM

If oh-no-bama is right, everything is wrong!

jgdp on January 12, 2010 at 10:29 PM

I find it quite amusing, all these green snobs looking down their long noses at me and my “fleet” of gas-sucking, powermongering, Detroit irons while they priss along in their snug little hybrids and electro-cycles. Of course, their conscious-raising rides are always spanking new. The days of the stinky VW bug with the “love your Mother” bumper sticker are gone.

I own a ninties-era big SUV, an eighties era drop-top and a sixties era land yacht. Not one of them gets better than 17 mpg, but the combined age of all my cars is over 72 years. And that’s where my habits beat the living snot out of every green snob in the country.

I hear that, on average, Americans buy a new car every 3 years. Therefore, I’ve statistically prevented the construction of about 24 cars. Bad for Detroit, but good for enviros because, thanks to me, the resources to produce operate, maintain and dispose of 24 cars have not been expended. Sure, I pay $50 to fill up and get lousy mpg, but you’d have to run one of those hybrid weenies over 100,000 miles before it’s environmental footprint is as small as any one of my current vehicles.

See, the environmental impact of any car begins at the point you start mining ore, not at the point at which it is delivered to market. That’s what the weenies don’t tell you, because they can’t admit it to themselves. If they did, they’d know that all alternative energy vehicles have an enormous environmental impact – far greater than that of conventional vehicles – before they even leave the lot.

So, not only am I green, I also have a much cooler ride.

Know what a Prius sounds like when it drives by you at full speed?

“Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmgay….”

Cricket624 on January 13, 2010 at 8:01 AM

15 years. Just in time to quaify for antique plates.

curved space on January 13, 2010 at 8:51 AM

I laughed my ass off when the libtard guy infront of me getting an emission test failed. He had a Honda hybrid.

TheSitRep on January 13, 2010 at 11:45 AM

Look to the military for that answer. Oshkosh makes a hybrid electric drive system that uses no batteries.

The system has no batteries, using ultracapacitors for energy storage instead.

BDU-33 on January 12, 2010 at 5:32 PM

UltraCaps are great as temporary storage devices as they can be charged and discharged very quickly. Much faster then chemical batteries. But ultracaps have a leak rate of 3%/day. They wouldn’t be considered as the primary storage device but only for those braking and accelerating demands during city driving. That’s where they excel.

Electrongod on January 12, 2010 at 5:45 PM

That’s all true, today, but I also look at current research. A lot of research is being done in Carbon nanotube capacitors and development of power density tunable polymers and polymer ceramic nanocomposites as electric storage materials for capacitors. It won’t be too long before we start seeing PDAs or even laptops powered by ultra capacitors.

BDU-33 on January 14, 2010 at 10:32 PM

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