Report: Stupak working with GOP to kill ObamaCare after Nelson’s sellout; Update: “Unacceptable”

posted at 2:29 pm on December 19, 2009 by Allahpundit

So strange have the bedfellows become that this story is breaking almost at the same time that this one is. Pro-life and pro-choice, united at last!

Question: Will the nutroots regard Stupak as a traitor for working with the evil GOP or an unwitting hero in trying to block a bill they regard as a sellout to corporate America?

An aide to Rep. Bart Stupak (D. Mich.) coordinated opposition to a Senate compromise on the place of abortion in health care legislation this morning with the Republican Senate leadership, the Conference Catholic Bishops, and other anti-abortion groups, according to a chain of frantic emails obtained this morning by POLITICO.

The emails show that Stupak — who has so far remained silent on language accepted by Senator Ben Nelson (D. Neb.) and faces intense pressure from the White House to accept it — is already working behind the scenes to oppose the compromise…

Stupak is the leader of a group of pro-life Democrats who say they’ll oppose the sweeping legislation if it uses government money to pay for abortion, while McConnell is firmly committed to killing the legislation. The fact that the two have made common cause against the Senates health care compromise will likely further infuriate Stupak’s Democratic colleagues in the House, and demonstrates his willingness to stop any bill that doesn’t pass his test.

I’m assuming the leaker here was someone who’s supporting the bill and eager to shatter Stupak’s pro-life blockade in the House, although I can’t imagine how they would have gotten hold of the e-mails. Or was this actually leaked by Stupak himself as an early warning to Pelosi that he’ll need to be bought off too like his pal Ben Nelson was? (If so, how does “further infuriating” his own side, including possibly members of his own anti-abortion coalition, by secretly coordinating with the GOP strengthen his hand?) Here again is Stephen Spruiell’s calculus of Democratic votes in the House; remember, Pelosi can only afford to lose two net yes votes after passing her own bill, 220-215. The strategy, I assume, will be to appease House progressives by dropping Stupak’s abortion language while using the lack of a public option in the final bill to woo Dems in Stupak’s anti-abortion coalition. Even if she loses 20 votes among House liberals who say they can’t vote for a bill without a public plan, potentially she’ll gain back 20 among weak pro-life Blue Dogs for whom a bill without a public plan is a real treat. Hoyer thinks it’s feasible, but whether he said that because he believes it or simply because he wanted to keep the pressure on while Nelson was deliberating is anyone’s guess.

Exit question: Can anyone explain to me why Bayh and Lincoln and Pryor and the rest of the Blue Dogs in the Senate who represent the 60th vote aren’t now demanding a Medicaid buyout for their state like Nelson got? Big Ben might have sold out America on abortion but at least he has something to show his constituents. The rest of them are voting for an increasingly toxic bill and getting jack in return. Is there some subtle strategic point to this that I’m missing or are they simply the royal schmucks we suspect them of being?

Update: Fixed the blockquote to correct Politico’s earlier typo about Stupak supposedly backing the Senate bill. (He’s opposing it, of course.) Meanwhile, an update:

“I never talked to McConnell about the health care bill,” said Stupak, adding that that “I did not authorize the email [which] “was sent without my knowledge.”

Stupak said that he has discussed the Senate’s abortion position with conservative Democratic senators Ben Nelson (Neb.) and Robert Casey (Penn.). His opposition to the senate’s language, in spite of those conversations and intense pressure from the White House, could augur a challenge to the compromise in the House when the two versions of the bill are reconciled.

The Senate language represented “a dramatic shift in federal policy,” said Stupak, adding that he remained hopeful that the differences could be resolved in conference. Nelson, though, said earlier Saturday that his support for the legislation was contingent on the abortion compromise remaining in it.

Blowback

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hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:06 PM

I wouldn’t disagree. The flaw that Santorum had was he forgot about representing PA, and clung on to representing his ideals or rather Conservative ideals. I can’t say this is a bad thing. The voters saw through the rouse. In the same context, Toomey needs a Specter to be voted in to office. In the same sense, Specter has forgotten about representing PA and now seems to be covering his political coattails. Poorly I may add.

disillusioned on December 19, 2009 at 10:21 PM

Starting to float around twitter:

NATIONAL STRIKE JAN 20, 2010 to coincide w/ STATE OF UNION SPEECH NATIONWIDE STRIKE over Obamacare & THREATEN we will not PAY INC TAX

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:24 PM

Starting to float around twitter:

NATIONAL STRIKE JAN 20, 2010 to coincide w/ STATE OF UNION SPEECH NATIONWIDE STRIKE over Obamacare & THREATEN we will not PAY INC TAX

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:24 PM

In.

russcote on December 19, 2009 at 10:37 PM

In.

russcote on December 19, 2009 at 10:37 PM

me too.

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:39 PM

disillusioned on December 19, 2009 at 10:21 PM

I’m a Pennsylvanian. What specifically do you consider Santorum doing, that was a rouse?

To me, Rick Santorum was probably the best example of how a political figure “gets” that no politics are merely local. He understood that his votes in Congress had implications nationally and voted his heart accordingly.

Rick Santorum lost because PA has turned into a blue state. Santorum lost because the media hated him for his defense of marriage legislation support. Santorum lost because his RINO Senate colleague (who quite frankly did the only honest thing in his career by jumping parties) wouldn’t support him.

We need more Senators like Santorum. He might not appear to the gay members of the Republican Party, but if you’re a true Conservative, you need to start asking yourself, who really represents our principles.

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:43 PM

Okay, Santorum probably wouldn’t “appear” to gays either, but what the Hawkster meant to say was “appeal” to gays.

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:46 PM

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:24 PM

IN!

fossten on December 19, 2009 at 10:47 PM

I’ve never advocated leaving the Union but if this passes and 2010 and 2012 don’t bring Constitutional reform in our govt then my faith in this nations govt is totally and completely lost (as if it wasn’t before with the results of the 2008 election) and I’ll want no part in the “United” States no longer. If by 2012 we don’t have a true conservative POTUS and Congress, I’ll burn my flag as it will no longer have any meaning…
Yakko77 on December 19, 2009 at 9:57 PM

Another post to file away when a conservative lectures you on patriotism.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:48 PM

Starting to float around twitter:

NATIONAL STRIKE JAN 20, 2010 to coincide w/ STATE OF UNION SPEECH NATIONWIDE STRIKE over Obamacare & THREATEN we will not PAY INC TAX

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:24 PM

I’m in. I just have to try to figure out how to support it from here.

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:48 PM

I’m in. I just have to try to figure out how to support it from here.

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:48 PM

lol hawk! no i think we need you guys to focus on the frontlines, at least while you’re deployed, let those that benefit from your efforts start to pick up a little of the slack and fight for their freedom in the rear areas.

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:53 PM

Another post to file away when a conservative lectures you on patriotism.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:48 PM

Please watch. And learn.

fossten on December 19, 2009 at 10:53 PM

It all comes down to metal, does it not? That, and a line in the sand.

Do they ever consider that their insatiable greed for the other person’s hard-earned gold might eventually lead to the risk of payment in hot lead and cold steel?

Yoop on December 19, 2009 at 10:53 PM

Another post to file away when a conservative lectures you on patriotism.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:48 PM

Another post to file away as an example of a red herring.

fossten on December 19, 2009 at 10:54 PM

Another post to file away when a conservative lectures you on patriotism.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:48 PM

What the frak would you know about Patriotism? Patriotism once stood up to tyranny and created this great nation when people like this saw no other means to their freedom. Why the hell are you such a coward as to not answer posts like mine, but you seize and opportunity to berate one like this. Did you ever in your life criticize someone like Bill Ayers for comment and action that was borne from disappointment of what their country had become? Hypocrite.

I hope you’re happy and still glib when folks like me are in jail for not paying for your health care. Is that the America you’re proud of?

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:55 PM

What the frak would you know about Patriotism?

Apparently a helluva lot more than you. When my party wasn’t in power, I never burned flags or advocated secession. Dissent is fine, but revolution is treason. I’ll file those posts away, so when you guys are in power again I can remind you what worthless, traitorous scum you acted like when your policies were enacted with which you disagreed.

Is that the America you’re proud of?

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:55 PM

Where all Americans have basic health care? Absolutely.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:59 PM

I’ll file those posts away, so when you guys are in power again I can remind you what worthless, traitorous scum you acted like when your policies were enacted with which you disagreed.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:59 PM

Man, hawkdriver – you are awesome. I’m applauding here.

capitalist piglet on December 19, 2009 at 11:00 PM

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:06 PM
hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:43 PM
hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:55 PM

I don’t think I’ve ever said it, but I’d just like to say I admire you, hawkdriver. For your service and because you say things like this. Just so you know. Thank you.

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:24 PM

I was wondering when that would ever come up. I also wonder if we might see if there is anything to the insane conspiracy rumors of detention camps that are supposed to be across the country, if they call the bluff on the threat to not pay Inc Tax, assuming it is more than a bluff.

pannw on December 19, 2009 at 11:05 PM

Rick Santorum lost because PA has turned into a blue state.
hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:43 PM

PA just didn’t turn into a blue state. Purple at best now. Given that the Philly/Pitts area are traditionally blue, the vast majority of the center of the state are traditionally Red. Given the economy of the central area over the past 10 years, there’s no question why we’re leaning blue.

disillusioned on December 19, 2009 at 11:08 PM

revolution is treason.

crr6 King George on December 19, 2009 November 1775 at 10:59 PM

fossten on December 19, 2009 at 11:09 PM

pannw on December 19, 2009 at 11:05 PM

There are no “camps”. And it will never get that far. These leftists are craven we can break them without violence.

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 11:09 PM

Here’s the thing guys…

The founders didn’t seek violent means, except as a last resort. But the government forced violence upon them by pushing it too far.

Don’t all totalitarian governments eventually provoke their people to that level, assuming the people are armed?

fossten on December 19, 2009 at 11:14 PM

Okay, Santorum probably wouldn’t “appear” to gays either, but what the Hawkster meant to say was “appeal” to gays.
hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:46 PM

Always cutting the log cabin guys out. What Would Lincoln Say?

disillusioned on December 19, 2009 at 11:15 PM

What the frak would you know about Patriotism?

Apparently a helluva lot more than you.

What have you ever sacrificed for freedom besides your vote? Your vote which BTW is denying our freedoms!

When my party wasn’t in power, I never burned flags or advocated secession. Dissent is fine, but revolution is treason.

No, your party went to “peace” rallies dressed like black bandana wearing thugs beating people up and attacking recruiting stations and chasing war vets off of college campuses for the audacity of wanting to talk to students about military careers. You people are some great patriots let me tell you! You threatened civil disobedience over monitoring terrorists but gasp when a bunch of honest tax payers say “enough”.

I’ll file those posts away, so when you guys are in power again I can remind you what worthless, traitorous scum you acted like when your policies were enacted with which you disagreed.

“Policies” are a curious word to use for laws and programs (unconstitutional I might add)designed for the absolute purpose of denying my freedoms from me by taking my hard earned money.

Is that the America you’re proud of?

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 10:55 PM

Where all Americans have basic health care? Absolutely.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:59 PM

What else do people who earn have to give to people who don’t before enough is enough. I came from poverty and built my life in the military to what it is today. Now I have to give it away so what, you don’t have to work and earn what I now finally have? And you wonder that some people have strong feelings about this?

Last thing, you’ll never appreciate what you don’t earn. You’ll take it for granted. An America like that would be dead and not worth saving. Something new, borne of old American ideas and principles would have to emerge from it for this world to have any chance at all.

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 11:16 PM

Where all Americans have basic health care? Absolutely.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:59 PM

Except that not all Americans will have healthcare under their bill. It’s a majority, not all.

NathanG on December 19, 2009 at 11:17 PM

disillusioned on December 19, 2009 at 11:08 PM

I was just there to visit my Dad. People in Central PA are sold on this idea that they can give up some freedom, (and self-respect) for government health care.

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 11:23 PM

Not one damn democrat strong enough to live by his or her convictions. All are a bunch of sell out lying pieces of s–t, plain and simple. Its time for some folks to take to heart some of Bambis own words and fight for what you believe in if it means geting in their face. Fu*k this cross the aisles with kindness bullsh*t. If I ever hear another republican saying we need to be more moderate and cross the aisle to work with these people again my head will explode. I am outraged as hell. Why the hell can people not see the big picture and know starting this year the good days are gone forever in this country because of that socialist liar in the White House. Every thing he is doing takes away from me and gives to his crony friends in the unions and the growing federal payroll and the deadbeats who want something for nothing. When the media called his hand about the statement he made to Joe the plumber he immediately contacted the press and stated he is not a socialist. What the hell is he then? If this spread the wealth bullshit is not hurting me and helping the deadbeat dependents on government class in this country and the cronies in ACORN and SEIU then what the hell is it? This site has many post supporting this quackery of an administration with an attempted effort sometimes it seems to call down any who oppose it. Whats up with that?
I thought this site was founded by Michelle as a sounding board for working folks who shared her thoughts and beliefs. I hope this snow storm weights heavily on the capitol dome and its OK with me if it collaspes on both houses of congress. I am sick of them.

bluegrass on December 19, 2009 at 11:24 PM

Crrr6, you’re a coward and I have to go; but I want you to understand the rational of most people of a conservative bend like me. I and those like me, would rather take an axe to the full of a lifeboat and go down with it, rather than listen to the other assholes bitch about why they can’t help row.

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 11:29 PM

Here’s the thing guys…

The founders didn’t seek violent means, except as a last resort. But the government forced violence upon them by pushing it too far.

Don’t all totalitarian governments eventually provoke their people to that level, assuming the people are armed?

fossten on December 19, 2009 at 11:14 PM

You’ve been in the HA echo chamber far too long, and you really need someone to put things in perspective for you.

Within the last 4 years, your party lost the House, the Senate, and finally the Presidency in a series of free, democratic elections. Americans were fed up with your ideas, and your leadership, so they decided to vote for Democrats. That’s what happens sometimes in a democracy. Sometimes you, and your ideas, lose.

Next, the Democrats enacted policies with which you disagree. This also frequently happens in a democracy. I’m sure it’s something the Founders envisioned. One of these policies, will be moderate health care reform. The process took months, and involved the Democrats making significant concessions to your party in order to get the legislation passed.

Now, that your party was voted out of power, your ideas lost, and policies are being enacted with which you disagree with, you’re throwing a tantrum and advocating armed revolution. In short, you’re advocating revolution, because this election cycle, democracy didn’t work the way you wanted it to. If that’s not unpatriotic, I don’t know what is.

If you want to change the policies, do it democratically. Build a consensus. Elect candidates who agree with you. But if you want to block reform through violence, expect to be called a fool, a coward, and a treasonous piece of trash.

No, your party went to “peace” rallies dressed like black bandana wearing thugs beating people up and attacking recruiting stations and chasing war vets off of college campuses for the audacity of wanting to talk to students about military careers

“My party” wasn’t me.

Anyway, you’re no better than the people you refer to, in fact you’re probably worse. How does it feel to become what you hate? Must be rough.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:31 PM

Bleeds Blue on December 19, 2009 at 6:46 PM

Dude, us hard working, make America go, citizens don’t burn down our own villages!

Once the costs become obvious, the repecussions too painful, we are comin after you and your lazy ass, freeloading friends!

dhunter on December 19, 2009 at 6:57 PM

What you said!

Gang-of-One on December 19, 2009 at 11:32 PM

What Would Lincoln Say?

disillusioned on December 19, 2009 at 11:15 PM

“Glory be, they do what!!!

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 11:32 PM

revolution is treason.

crr6 King George on December 19, 2009 November 1775 at 10:59 PM

fossten on December 19, 2009 at 11:09 PM

Yeah, How could I forget!? Our Founding Father’s revolted because King George passed moderate health care reform. After winning an election.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:34 PM

(I apologize for the long post, and the pathetic formatting…)

Allow me to define myself. I am a 3rd year subspecialty medicine “fellow”. This means that I have completed 4 years of medical school, 3 years of internal medicine training, and currently am in my last year of subspecialty training. I was already $180,000 in debt, of which 75% is unsubsidized principal before even buying a house. I worked well over 80-hrs/week during the 3 years of internal medicine residency and made about the same hourly wage as a person behind the counter at McDonalds. The last 3 years have not been much better.

Those of you who think that this type of health care reform is a good thing, where many of the cuts proposed will come from reimbursements to physicians and hospitals, are sadly mistaken. I would propose that these people have little, or no knowledge as how the system works.

Here are some statistics, and scenarios for you. Because in context of this debate – I fear will damage the medical profession for a long time – if not irreparably. The data speaks for itself, though I can’t keep myself from adding comments.

Some terms:
‘Resident’ = medical student who lives in the same state as the medical school
‘NonResident’ = aka ‘out-of-state’ medical student
‘Public Medical Schools’ = “state” schools (e.g. University of California)
‘Private Medical Schools’ = non-“state” schools (e.g. Harvard)

The costs for ‘resident’ medical students are usually less (with few exceptions) because medical schools prefer to make it easier for ‘local’ applicants, in part to encourage graduates to remain in the same state after they have completed training. (Many schools also receive state funding.)

The following has been taken from the the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) – http://www.aamc.org:

Note: NONE of the cited dollar values below include cost of living, etc.

(1)
Table 1, U.S. Medical Schools Tuition and Student Fees – First Year Students
2009- 2010 and 2008- 2009

Average Cost for Tuition, Fees, & Health Insurance – Public Medical Schools
2008-2009 & 2009-2010
Resident – $23,608 & $25,204
NonResident – $43,686 & $45,853

Average Cost for Tuition, Fees, & Health Insurance – Private Medical Schools
2008-2009 & 2009-2010
Resident – $41,246 & $42,906
NonResident – $41,690 & $43,431

For a breakdown of these values, see the data listed for individual public & private medical schools.

Tuition, Fees, & Health Insurance – First Year Medical Students 2009-2010

Range of Cost for Tuition, Fees, & Health Insurance – Public Medical Schools
Low & High
Resident – $11,394 & $38,684
NonResident – $20,309 & $75,238

Range of Cost for Tuition, Fees, & Health Insurance – Private Medical Schools
Low & High
Resident – $17,512 & $54,244
NonResident – $23,475 & $54,244

Again, these values do NOT include cost of living.

(2)

Medical School Tuition and Young Physician Indebtedness – An Update to the 2004 Report (2007)

Between 2001 – 2006:

“Tuition and fees—especially for public medical schools—have increased at an astonishing 11.1 percent.4 Data from the same source show that the percentage of students in debt at graduation has increased to 85 percent for private medical school graduates and 86 percent for public medical school graduates.” (p3)

Average Total Debt Increase for Medical Students (Table 1)
2001 & 2006
Public Medical School Student – $86,000 & $120,000
Private Medical School Student – $120,000 & $160,000

Though projections appear to decrease for future years – to be approaching $250K in debt (Figure 1, p4) – before even completing several more years of training for internship & residency (NOT INCLUDING fellowship subspecialty training) – still is daunting. Remember, this is PRINCIPAL. Not including INTEREST. Though subsidized loans accrue interest, this represents a limited percentage ~ 20% of the total debt. The remainder can accrue ~ 3-5% interest. Do the remaining math.

No prospective medical student can enter medical school without the realization that they will become an economic slave to the government. This doesn’t even factor in the cost of owning a home, or having children. Would it be surprising to find resentment of those who can work, or yet who would rather live on welfare?

(3)

The faculty of medical schools in the U.S. is aging. One can postulate several reasons for this – but the most likely reason is the difference in pay between either private practice or industry (e.g. pharmaceutical) and academic health science centers.

During a recent seminar series for career development where I am working, subspecialty fellows were asked to strongly consider pursuing a career in academic medicine. They encourage that we should do this for the “good of the profession”. Yet, they were reticent to provide any specific answer regarding the average salary for faculty member in a clinical department as compared to private practice. It was an obvious appeal to self-sacrifice, yet they offer little in the way of loan relief. There is a Loan Repayment Program (LRP) offered through the NIH – however, this doesn’t forgive all of your loans. This leads to hard decisions needing to be made. Perhaps this is why the next data set is so significant.

Aging of Full-time US Medical School Faculty: 1967-2007

Average Age (% Age >= 55) 1967, 1987, 2007
Clinical Departments
MD or Equivalent 41.4 (8), 44.1 (18), 47.8 (26)
(number) – (8,577), (37,836), (74,116)

PhD or Equivalent 39.9 (6), 43.4 (13), 48.7 (30)
(number) – (1,375), (7,964), (16,162)

MD and PhD or Equivalent 43.1 (10), 45.6 (20), 49.5 (27)
(number) – (748), (3,025), (7,540)

Basic Sciences
MD or Equivalent 42.3 (10), 49.6 (36), 52.9 (41)
(number) – (1,247), (1,981), (2,193)

PhD or Equivalent 41.3 (10), 45.5 (19), 51.1 (38)
(number) – (2,779), (8,983), (12,445)

MD and PhD or Equivalent 43.5 (14), 48.0 (28), 51.3 (31)
(number) – (444), (832), (1,414)

First-time Assistant Professors
Pursuing Research 33.6 (0), 36.0 (1), 39.3 (4)
(number) – (423), (1,234), (1,739)

The average age for medical and science research faculty is increasing.
Physician scientists, by comparison, are a minority in medical centers.
First time Assistant Professors pursuing research has minimally changed 1987-2007 (1,414 -> 1,739).

Although we are constantly told about the need for more primary care physicians, there is very little encouragement, or significant support, by comparison, to develop new clinician-scientists. New clinician scientists are expected to generate their salary in significant part, though research grant awards (e.g. NIH). The average age for a scientist to receive their 1st RO1 grant award from the NIH is ~ 40 years old. Applications for NIH research awards are competitive – with a range of 20 – 30% actually being funded.

Given the average debt the average graduating medical student will carry immediately after finishing 4 years of medical school, often deferring payment for an additional 3-4+ years of internship + residency (and, in some cases, an additional 3-4+ years of subspecialty training) what makes it appealing for new trainees to pursue a job at an academic health sciences center? It simply would be a lot easier to endure 3 years of law school.

When the current generation of clinician scientists begins to retire (in approximately 10 years), who will replace them? What does this imply for innovation originating at medical centers?

(4)

It is not new that may graduating medical students, in addition to foreign physicians, come to the US every year to enter medicine residency. A surrogate for these people, aka Foreign or International Medical Graduates (FMG/IMG), who train in the US, is reflected in those who enter the residency “match” (National Residency Matching Program) and who are successfully matched. (I am not talking about US citizens who go to medical schools outside of the US, and return after graduation.) These IMGs – who primarily come from India and Pakistan – have J-1 visas.

The following data is from the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) – http://www.ecfmg.org.

ECFMG Fact Card Summary Data 2007 – 2009

2007, 2008, 2009
Applications for J-1 Visa – 6,825, 7,235, NR

Non-US Citizen IMG Participants – 6,999, 7,335, 7,484
Number Matched – 3,180, 3,108, 3,112
Percent Matched – 46%, 42%, 42%

Perhaps liberals believe that the US healthcare system can weather losses of new US trained physicians by recruiting more IMGs. However, considering the simple sacrifice that these people need to make simply to come here, even they are weighing the costs, because they often are obligated to work in underserved areas in the US, trying to care for HUGE numbers of patients.

This is supported by the attached article “Jinx of the J-1 visa: IMGs finding other paths to residency” by Myrle Croasdale American Medical News (amednews.com) March 10, 2008 – http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/03/10/prsa0310.htm:

“The J-1 visa requires physicians to return to their home country for two years after residency. Physicians can stay if they agree to work in an underserved area for three years. Physicians on J-1 waivers are particularly important to isolated, rural clinics, which have the hardest time recruiting physicians.”

“The J-1 visa is declining, in part, because the H1-B visa is more attractive.
Physicians with H1-B visas do not need to return home for two years, and they do not need to work in an underserved area if they stay in the U.S. The government does not track how many IMGs have H1-B visas. Practices affiliated with universities and nonprofit or government research groups are not subject to any caps on the number of H1-B visas issued.”

“Carl Heard, MD, chief medical officer and interim CEO for Nevada Health Centers, said that three years ago, the state hired 30 J-1 waiver physicians for underserved communities in what is called the Conrad 30 program. This year, only one J-1 waiver doctor has been hired, a sign of the shrinking supply of such doctors.”

Many of the J-1 Visa physicians are Family Medicine physicians – which are needed in rural, underserved areas. More of these physicians are simply returning to their home country, rather than stay in the US to practice in an underserved area. Also, more and more IMGs with J-1 Visas, or H1-B Visas, are pursuing subspecialty training, then either remaining in an academic medical center, or simply returning to their home country to practice.

Less US medical graduates are choosing to serve in underserved areas despite loan forgiveness offers – because only few such physicians are left to take care of huge numbers of patients – leading to increasing risk of burnout. Additionally, Medicare reimbursements are a travesty by comparison, often being much less than 50% of what is billed. Unfortunately, physicians do not have the luxury to be so snobbish to cite a significant hourly billing rate. Is it a real surprise that more medical school graduates opt to pursue subspecialty training or enter private practice – where reimbursement is better?

(5)

The culture in academic medical centers is profoundly liberal. Some faculty, are even extreme enough to call those trainees heading into private practice “greedy”. This doesn’t even approach the distaste they have for the pharmaceutical industry. Interestingly, these same people who fear becoming ‘biased’ and feel that we cannot make decisions based upon the available evidence in the literature, are the same people who will not hesitate to ask a pharmaceutical company for money when it suits their purposes… This ideology also happens to be prevalent among those who vote Democrat – and often provides the “expert” input for the current Democratic health care proposals. Many of these “experts” simply would not be able to compete in a private practice environment – because they have the mentality of a salaried employee, rather than a private practice physician, who generate an income based upon their productivity seeing greater numbers of patients. The latter group of physicians works HARD to earn their living. This is the same population that takes care of the vast majority of patients in the US.

(6)

Just an exercise: a Google search of “Parkland Medical Center” and losses in reimbursement for illegal aliens. Then imagine this over the whole Southern US. Is it a wonder why so many medical centers are financially running in the red? You will never hear a liberal address this. I have plenty of anecdotes where money is lost, but imagine this scenario that is NOT uncommon. An illegal alien from Mexico comes into the US and develops active pulmonary tuberculosis. He/she is evaluated in the emergency room and admitted to a negative pressure room that increases costs. He stays there, providing sputum to confirm the working diagnosis, and remains there until he has no more detectable sputum after starting therapy. The hospital loses all of this money. Because hospitals are evil, as are doctors who make so much money, liberals could care less. But hospitals pass on the cost to the hard working, insurance carrying patients, by charging $5 per tab of Tylenol. This will get worse when millions of illegal aliens are covered by this plan. There cannot be any health care reform without immigration laws being firmly and coldly enforced.

(7)

No tort reform. Really? That makes no sense. Do a Google search of “AMA News” and comparative malpractice insurance costs for physicians between southeastern and western Michigan. One example – ~ 1998, obstetrician and gynecology physicians would each pay $100,000/YEAR in Detroit versus $40,000/year in western Michigan. $40,000 versus $10,000 for internal medicine physicians. The difference? Demographics, liberal politics, and malpractice awards.

(8)

It is not true that a patient who needs medical attention does not get care. I have never seen a single patient turned away who needed medical attention. If they do not have insurance, a social worker will enroll them in a state funded plan. Anyone who says otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

(9)

Anyone who states that an individual should not pay ANYTHING for his/her medical care is a communist. Why should tax paying, working citizens who have insurance, be forced to shoulder all of the financial risk for: a drug addict with infective endocarditis needing several weeks of IV antibiotic therapy; an “unemployed” drug-dealer who requires a long hospital stay to recover from gunshot wounds; an elderly woman with dementia who has been dropped off in the emergency department by her daughter who is unemployed, yet collects unemployment checks, disability, and social security support not only for herself and children, but also for her mother who resides in the hospital? These are NOT uncommon occurrences.

(10)

Sadly, Medicare/Medicaid already rations medical care to the elderly by either limiting reimbursement, or refusing reimbursement. Why do many elderly carry additional supplemental insurance? And making cuts is supposed to be better?

(11)

The “non-medical” proponents of the current health care overhaul either are ignorant regarding the sacrifice (personal & financial – that it already takes to become a physician), or malicious. By malicious, I mean that whenever one of these people state that doctors will simply “take” another cut in pay because they are dedicated to their patients, simply ignores economic reality that physicians face. As a result, physicians already are limiting how many Medicare patients they will take in their practice. It will only get worse.

Most people, like myself, who become physicians do what they do because they love medicine, science, and being able to help people. After paying such a price to reach a career goal, we are being told that we do not DESERVE the fruits of our labor? No other profession has to endure such training to be able to work and earn a living. No other profession has to pay such a steep price. No other profession can say it would be UNETHICAL to form a union – can you imagine what would happen in an intensive care unit if physicians walked out? Or if surgeons walked out?

As this bill passes – some physicians, who are in a position to do so, will retire. Some may attempt to obtain reimbursement on a cash-only basis. Some may lay off office workers to make ends meet. Others may change careers. Bright college students savvy about the costs involved to become a physician will pursue other careers. There are even less incentives for US medical graduates to pursue a career in primary care and preventive medicine. (Why be saddled with excessive debt, and forced to see more Medicare patients, working more hours, to make less?) We will also be less likely find a safety net by recruiting foreign physicians.

What will Canadian health care systems do, when they can no longer send patients from Windsor across the bridge to Detroit, for an angioplasty – because all of the cardiologists have left to go to the suburbs?

And malpractice lawyers, who bill by the hour, will have less and less numbers of physicians to sue.

How ‘bout them apples? Have fun. Sleep tight.

Danny on December 19, 2009 at 11:35 PM

Anyway, you’re no better than the people you refer to, in fact you’re probably worse. How does it feel to become what you hate? Must be rough.
crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:31 PM

Do you mean becoming a Statist?

Juno77 on December 19, 2009 at 11:37 PM

I was just there to visit my Dad. People in Central PA are sold on this idea that they can give up some freedom, (and self-respect) for government health care.
hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 11:23 PM

if you had the impression that Freedom’s just another word, for nothing left to lose. you may want to talk to the indigenous population of the area.

disillusioned on December 19, 2009 at 11:38 PM

More than a rumor now.

tru2tx on December 19, 2009 at 11:24 PM


sweet! time to spread the word.

http://strike120.ning.com/

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 11:38 PM

“My party” wasn’t me.

But you love to lump us together. Guilty by association!

Anyway, you’re no better than the people you refer to, in fact you’re probably worse.

Really? Why?

How does it feel to become what you hate? Must be rough.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:31 PM

I feel pretty good about myself when I look in that mirror to shave knowing what I have, I earned. And BTW, along the way I shared what I earned with others of my own accord without the government telling me I had to. (I would bet a paycheck my hours of community service when I’m not deployed and amount of dollars to charity given would rival most. I’d bet it were more than you ever did)

Crrr6, you are a coward and not worth my time but I’ll allow you some insight to mine and I bet, other Conservative’s feelings on which sword is worth falling on. For me, I’d rather take an axe to the very hull of a lifeboat I were in, rather than listen to some lazy a$$hole like you b1tch about why they can’t help row.

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 11:41 PM

Starting to float around twitter:

NATIONAL STRIKE JAN 20, 2010 to coincide w/ STATE OF UNION SPEECH NATIONWIDE STRIKE over Obamacare & THREATEN we will not PAY INC TAX
elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:24 PM

elduende: I spirit,I`m with you guys,as in,we are all
Georgians,and remember Neda:)

canopfor on December 19, 2009 at 11:45 PM

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:31 PM

Sorry, but you FAIL miserably. This wasn’t a football game. This was people taking away my rights. There’s a difference. I wouldn’t expect people like you to understand it though. You’re too busy living off the government teat to go learn what it’s like to earn a living.

fossten on December 19, 2009 at 11:46 PM

elduende: I spirit,I`m with you guys,as in,we are all
Georgians,and remember Neda:)

canopfor on December 19, 2009 at 11:45 PM

Awesome!

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 11:47 PM

Oops again,should be,in spirit!

canopfor on December 19, 2009 at 11:49 PM

Yeah, How could I forget!? Our Founding Father’s revolted because King George passed moderate health care reform. After winning an election.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:34 PM

Hey libtard – that inbred tyrant was never elected…you know, because he was a KING? And the last straw was a crushing financial burden on the people inflicted by the elite…like the kind that we’re about to get socked with.

Dark-Star on December 19, 2009 at 11:50 PM

Within the last 4 years, your party lost the House, the Senate, and finally the Presidency in a series of free, democratic elections. Americans were fed up with your ideas, and your leadership, so they decided to vote for Democrats. That’s what happens sometimes in a democracy. Sometimes you, and your ideas, lose.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:31 PM

As you and your party will soon find out. Again. People forgot just how much liberalism sucks. Now they’re getting a good bellyful.

ddrintn on December 19, 2009 at 11:50 PM

LOL … I’m enjoying this train wreck. Prediction … and you can bank it … the final bill (if any) will be so watered down and nothing – that people are going to label the Democrats AMATEURS for insisting on this fuss for nothing!

God I love it! :P

HondaV65 on December 19, 2009 at 11:51 PM

As you and your party will soon find out. Again.
ddrintn on December 19, 2009 at 11:50 PM

Yep. And that’s fine. Sometimes my party will win, sometimes we’ll lose.

But when we lose, I won’t throw a temper tantrum, burn flags, or advocate an armed revolution. Because I’m better than you.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:53 PM

“Glory be, they do what!!!
hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 11:32 PM

shhh… don’t tell the father, son, and holy ghost.

disillusioned on December 19, 2009 at 11:54 PM

But when we lose, I won’t throw a temper tantrum, burn flags, or advocate an armed revolution. Because I’m better than you.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:53 PM

No, you’ll leave that to the other moonbats while you just go along for the ride, like the 8 years of Bush Derangment.

I’m not throwing a tantrum or threatening to grab my rifle. I’m content to wait for the wheel to go around, and around it will go.

ddrintn on December 19, 2009 at 11:56 PM

I wouldn’t disagree. The flaw that Santorum had was he forgot about representing PA, and clung on to representing his ideals or rather Conservative ideals. I can’t say this is a bad thing. The voters saw through the rouse. In the same context, Toomey needs a Specter to be voted in to office. In the same sense, Specter has forgotten about representing PA and now seems to be covering his political coattails. Poorly I may add.

disillusioned on December 19, 2009 at 10:21 PM

I hear ya. I want to apologize for the disaster that is Pennsylvania. Gee, not even the Steelers had their mojo this season!

ProudPalinFan on December 19, 2009 at 11:58 PM

LOL … I’m enjoying this train wreck. Prediction … and you can bank it … the final bill (if any) will be so watered down and nothing – that people are going to label the Democrats AMATEURS for insisting on this fuss for nothing!

God I love it! :P

HondaV65 on December 19, 2009 at 11:51 PM

Doesn’t matter. All they have to do is get their toe in the door, and then they can amend it to friggin’ single-payer if they want. Whatever sh!t they turn out will take years to undo.

ddrintn on December 19, 2009 at 11:58 PM

Yep. And that’s fine. Sometimes my party will win, sometimes we’ll lose.

But when we lose, I won’t throw a temper tantrum, burn flags, or advocate an armed revolution. Because I’m better than you.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:53 PM

No, really you’re just an asshole.

fossten on December 19, 2009 at 11:59 PM

But when we lose, I won’t throw a temper tantrum,…, or advocate an armed revolution. Because I’m better than you.
crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:53 PM

I just had deja-vu²

disillusioned on December 20, 2009 at 12:00 AM

I’m content to wait for the wheel to go around, and around it will go.

ddrintn on December 19, 2009 at 11:56 PM

Yeah, I mean I really gotta hand it to you guys. Through lies, fear mongering and deception you’ve managed to hold off basic health care reform in America for decades upon decades. Reform that every single other industrialized country has long ago enacted. You’ve played the dull-witted reactionary part admirably, for years.

Looks like it’s finally curtains though.

crr6 on December 20, 2009 at 12:10 AM

crr6, go buy lotto tickets. I agree with Jane Hamsher…at the Huffington compost:

Rahm Emanuel has convinced himself that Ron Brownstein is a “liberal” and dismisses all of this as “the progressive backlash against the progressive backlash.” He’s betting that any inadequacies will be forgotten come November 2010 if the Dems can claim a “w” by passing any crap bill and slapping “health care” on it. And that if Congress just spends the next year naming post offices, any objections that Americans might have to paying 8% of their incomes to private corporations who will use the IRS as their collection agency will just disappear.

It’s scary to think that people this obscenely stupid are running the country. All the while, the painfully obvious left/right transpartisan consensus that is coalescing against DC insiders of both parties appears to be taking everyone by surprise.

Schadenfreude on December 20, 2009 at 12:11 AM

Looks like it’s finally curtains though.

crr6 on December 20, 2009 at 12:10 AM

Debt will kill it all before 2014.

the_nile on December 20, 2009 at 12:12 AM

Looks like it’s finally curtains though.

crr6 on December 20, 2009 at 12:10 AM

No, “curtains” comes to that party and ideology that manages to piss off at least 2/3 of the country.

ddrintn on December 20, 2009 at 12:12 AM

But when we lose, I won’t throw a temper tantrum, burn flags, or advocate an armed revolution. Because I’m better than you.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:53 PM

And I was afraid I wouldn’t hear anything funny today. Your party invented minority party temper tantrums.

Also, before you go on too long about how your party won over the America People, take a long look at those polls you said yourself “we” were ignoring during the election. The tide is already turning. And when folks start seeing average citizens like me being thrown in prison for not buying your health care…

Yep!

hawkdriver on December 20, 2009 at 12:13 AM

Looks like it’s finally curtains though.

crr6 on December 20, 2009 at 12:10 AM

Not until the fat lady votes.

Schadenfreude on December 20, 2009 at 12:14 AM

moderate health care reform

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 11:34 PM

basic health care reform

crr6 on December 20, 2009 at 12:10 AM

You’re getting your own talking points mixed up.

FAIL.

fossten on December 20, 2009 at 12:16 AM

Also, before you go on too long about how your party won over the America People, take a long look at those polls you said yourself “we” were ignoring during the election. The tide is already turning.

hawkdriver on December 20, 2009 at 12:13 AM

Yeah, Obamania is soooooo 2008.

ddrintn on December 20, 2009 at 12:17 AM

Basic Health care is not a right guaranteed by The Constitution. Liberal are great at giving away what others own.

hawkdriver on December 20, 2009 at 12:19 AM

No, “curtains” comes to that party and ideology that manages to piss off at least 2/3 of the country.

ddrintn on December 20, 2009 at 12:12 AM

And so fast too!!!! Hell, I’m a moderate and I’m laughing at the self-inflicted wounds of the Democrats.

NathanG on December 20, 2009 at 12:27 AM

hawkdriver on December 20, 2009 at 12:19 AM

one hand giveth, and the other taketh away

disillusioned on December 20, 2009 at 12:27 AM

Basic Health care is not a right guaranteed by The Constitution. Liberal are great at giving away what others own.

hawkdriver on December 20, 2009 at 12:19 AM

Exactly. It’s a privilege, not a right.
And Crr6, many other countries that have universal healthcare, universal education, etc. have been burdened with debt, high unemployment, and apparently the leftists in several of those countries have been “burdened” with Conservative prime ministers. Germany, Canada, and more than likely Great Britain soon, come to mind.

NathanG on December 20, 2009 at 12:30 AM

Meant to say chancellor for Germany.

NathanG on December 20, 2009 at 12:32 AM

The culture in academic medical centers is profoundly liberal. Some faculty, are even extreme enough to call those trainees heading into private practice “greedy”. This ideology also happens to be prevalent among those who vote Democrat – and often provides the “expert” input for the current Democratic health care proposals. Many of these “experts” simply would not be able to compete in a private practice environment – because they have the mentality of a salaried employee…

Danny on December 19, 2009 at 11:35 PM

My physician is an academician as well as a practicing Internist. She’s a salaried employee at a teaching hospital. She routinely confides in me (because I’m also an academician and she thinks we’re pals) her distain for our American medical system. She hails from Scotland.

During my last visit, she blathered on about how if Obamacare is passed, people over 60 will receive less care and that’s the way it should be– “the European way.” She indicated that American’s are spoiled; having the temerity to request MRI’s and whatever tests they want. I responded to her rant that irrespective of my mothers age, I’ll fight to the death to ensure she gets whatever care she needs. To this she replied: “C’mon, if she only had three weeks left, you’d fight to keep her alive?” “Hell, yes,” I responded. At this point, she proceeded to tell me I was being ridiculous. Consequently, I’m in the market for a new Internist.

anXdem on December 20, 2009 at 12:33 AM

NathanG on December 20, 2009 at 12:30 AM

If you could provide a link for a source of information of this comment I’d be interested. Particularly with respect to bringing together universal health care to burdened dept and high unemployment. Basically a cause and effect link source.

disillusioned on December 20, 2009 at 12:41 AM

When my party wasn’t in power, I never burned flags or advocated secession.

Remind me again what color Vermont is?

Where all Americans have basic health care? Absolutely.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:59 PM

All Americans have basic healthcare now, idiot. Even illegal immigrants have basic healthcare through our emergency rooms. Americans can have health insurance, if they pay for it (which is cheaper than Obamacare.) 80% of Americans are happy with their health insurance.

chunderroad on December 20, 2009 at 12:43 AM

anXdem on December 20, 2009 at 12:33 AM

This healthcare scam of the Democrats is just a way to swindle the elderly out of the money they’ve worked and saved their whole lives for. “2/3 of your life’s earnings are spent in the last third of your life” or whatever they say. Jerks.

chunderroad on December 20, 2009 at 12:47 AM

worthless, traitorous scum

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:59 PM

the Worst Troll in the World defines itself

Janos Hunyadi on December 20, 2009 at 12:56 AM

The abortion issue is just to give certain Dems cover. This is all smoke and mirrors.

modifiedcontent on December 20, 2009 at 12:57 AM

If you could provide a link for a source of information of this comment I’d be interested. Particularly with respect to bringing together universal health care to burdened dept and high unemployment. Basically a cause and effect link source.

disillusioned on December 20, 2009 at 12:41 AM

You need look no further than the example of France.

It is also worth remembering that, despite this secret ingredient of paying its doctors so little by American standards, the French system is in chronic financial difficulty — as you would expect, in fact, because of fee-for-service and the other dysfunctional aspects that its approach has in common with America’s. The costs are covered through a high payroll tax, which employers and workers share; but all of it, in the final analysis, is drawn from wages. Constant upward pressure on costs translates into constant upward pressure on taxes, which then meets the same political resistance one sees in the United States. Meanwhile, paying for everything through a tax on labor most likely contributes to France’s chronic high unemployment.

Article here.

ddrintn on December 20, 2009 at 12:59 AM

chunderroad on December 20, 2009 at 12:47 AM

Having the meme of robbing Peter to pay Paul, as to speak, I assume.

disillusioned on December 20, 2009 at 1:05 AM

ddrintn on December 20, 2009 at 12:59 AM

thanks, curious upon subsequent reading if this correlates with the thought that I had.

disillusioned on December 20, 2009 at 1:09 AM

comparing French health care to US heath care seems to be a nom de guerre. practically speaking, this article may as well say that since democracy is not working in North Korea, that it won’t work here in the the states.

disillusioned on December 20, 2009 at 1:29 AM

During my last visit, she blathered on about how if Obamacare is passed, people over 60 will receive less care and that’s the way it should be– “the European way.”

did you ask her why she didn’t go to europe to practice?

RonK on December 20, 2009 at 5:13 AM

Rick Santorum lost because PA has turned into a blue state

actually I think he lost because the democrats put someone on the ticket with almost the exact same belives that Santorum had, plus he had the name reconition. wasn’t it Casey jr.

RonK on December 20, 2009 at 5:17 AM

RonK on December 20, 2009 at 5:17 AM

Casey Jr is no Conservative. Check his voting record thus far.

hawkdriver on December 20, 2009 at 5:54 AM

They will all be bought off.

albill on December 20, 2009 at 6:32 AM

disillusioned on December 20, 2009 at 1:29 AM

hmmm, interesting point. otherwise, kittens are fuzzy…and warm

hawkdriver on December 20, 2009 at 6:45 AM

Stupak will cave just like Traitor Nelson did. Don’t trust any of them….they all lie.

yoda on December 20, 2009 at 7:12 AM

The leftist Democrats in congress and in the administration are born entrepreneurs. Just look at what they’re doing with healthcare. They’re making us pay for abortions and that alone will save billions of dollars from all the potential newborns that will no longer need medical care. And their reduced and rationed care for seniors is absolute genius. Just think of the revenue and jobs that will be generated by the construction and staffing of a few dozen “Soylent Green” factories . . . yes indeed, these leftist Democrats are incredible people. Thank you enlightened voters, you really stuck it to us this time.

rplat on December 20, 2009 at 7:31 AM

Danny on December 19, 2009 at 11:35 PM

Just woke up and saw your EXCELLENT post. Thank you for taking the time to write it and educate the rest of us about what is really going on wrt medical training and medical services these days.

crr6 the ignorant is a law student. Lawyers can’t form a union either for ethical reasons and it can take up to 150k in student loans. Law professors also disparage the ‘greed’ of students who have no real choice but to go to big firms for the first ten or so years of their careers just to pay off their loans (loan repayment programs for other work only pay a fraction of your monthly obligation, depending on income). Either crr6 is independently wealthy or s/he/it may have to start appreciating the value of hard work and sacrifice sooner rather than later.

Firefly_76 on December 20, 2009 at 7:40 AM

Yeah, I mean I really gotta hand it to you guys. Through lies, fear mongering and deception you’ve managed to hold off basic health care reform in America for decades upon decades. Reform that every single other industrialized country has long ago enacted. You’ve played the dull-witted reactionary part admirably, for years.

Looks like it’s finally curtains though.

crr6 on December 20, 2009 at 12:10 AM

This is not “basic health care”, this is fundamental socialism being implemented by a congress and administration that behaves as fascists. Support it if you must but don’t attempt to distort the true state of the world.

rplat on December 20, 2009 at 7:53 AM

And malpractice lawyers, who bill by the hour, will have less and less numbers of physicians to sue.

Danny on December 19, 2009 at 11:35 PM

Plaintiffs’ malpractice lawyers do not charge by the hour. They charge a percentage of the recovery,

slp on December 20, 2009 at 8:15 AM

There does need to be a better option when people lose their jobs. Cobra takes up way to much money. If we are going to stay employer based this has to be addressed.

I haven’t heard anything about it.

tomas on December 20, 2009 at 8:30 AM

disillusioned, “what would Lincoln say?” Something you wouldn’t want to hear.

maverick muse on December 20, 2009 at 8:43 AM

Starting to float around twitter:

NATIONAL STRIKE JAN 20, 2010 to coincide w/ STATE OF UNION SPEECH NATIONWIDE STRIKE over Obamacare & THREATEN we will not PAY INC TAX

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:24 PM

Keep the Spirit: CUT TAXES!

maverick muse on December 20, 2009 at 8:44 AM

The Democrats’ Health Issue Bill will augment the income of lawyers, pharmaceutical industry, and the government BUREAUCRATS running the health money industry–all the while fewer people get health care, and health care costs INCREASE atrociously. Those who STILL CAN NOT AFFORD HEALTH CARE are imprisoned.

maverick muse on December 20, 2009 at 8:47 AM

Another distraction … Isn’t the real tip off “the bill is not available to the public”?

tarpon on December 20, 2009 at 9:10 AM

Either crr6 is independently wealthy or s/he/it may have to start appreciating the value of hard work and sacrifice sooner rather than later.

Firefly_76 on December 20, 2009 at 7:40 AM

crr6 s/h/it will never learn, stuck on stupid blaming s/h/it inheritance or someone else. So s/h/it’s bane is that no matter the investment cost, s/h/it doesn’t cut the grade except as sewage. These elite parasites spread cultural Ebola to most cruelly take life from their hosts.

maverick muse on December 20, 2009 at 9:20 AM

Another distraction … Isn’t the real tip off “the bill is not available to the public”?

tarpon on December 20, 2009 at 9:10 AM

NATIONAL SECURITY: need to know basis

maverick muse on December 20, 2009 at 9:21 AM

Last thing, you’ll never appreciate what you don’t earn. You’ll take it for granted. An America like that would be dead and not worth saving. Something new, borne of old American ideas and principles would have to emerge from it for this world to have any chance at all.

hawkdriver on December 19, 2009 at 11:16 PM

That may well be the comment of the year Hawk. And thank you for your service
+1M

JusDreamin on December 20, 2009 at 10:23 AM

Where all Americans have basic health care? Absolutely.

crr6 on December 19, 2009 at 10:59 PM

Yeah, sounds dandy crr6. Just peachy.

A recent “Investor’s Business Daily” article provided very interesting statistics from a survey by the United Nations International Health Organization:

Percentage of men and women who survived a cancer five years after diagnosis:

U.S. 65%
England 46%
Canada 42%

Percentage of patients diagnosed with diabetes who received treatment within six months:

U.S. 93%
England 15%
Canada 43%

Percentage of seniors needing hip replacement who received it within six months:

U.S. 90%
England 15%
Canada 43%

Percentage referred to a medical specialist who see one within one month:

U.S. 77%
England 40%
Canada 43%

Number of MRI scanners per million people:

U.S. 71
England 14
Canada 18

Percentage of seniors (65+), with low income, who say they are in “excellent health”:

U.S. 12%
England 2%
Canada 6%

Basic Healthcare crr6? Try crap healthcare.

JusDreamin on December 20, 2009 at 10:33 AM

anXdem on December 20, 2009 at 12:33 AM
———————
Its nice to know that there are academicians who are practical and realistic, not simply blindly idealistic. The environment often reminds me of Orwell’s ‘Animal Farm’. If you have a different opinion, you have to keep your mouth shut – or risk being blackballed…

A medical case anecdote about the “European way”. A 73-year-old woman with carotid artery stenosis – “narrowing” of the arteries that provides blood to the brain – was refused surgery to “clear the blockages”. This wouldn’t be as significant if only one side was affected – rather in this case both sides were affected. The degree of stenosis bilaterally was > 90%. Of course, “free” state-run health care deemed that surgery wasn’t necessary because of her age. (This same person would have had this procedure in the US.) So, at 76, she has a massive stroke. Unfortunately for her, she doesn’t die, and has just enough functional capacity to warrant incredible costs of continuing care. But, its free.

What would be more cost effective? The “preventive”, yet necessary surgery at 73, or the gamble that eventually the 73-year-old woman would have a massive stroke & die? Oops, but they don’t happen to think about what happens to these people if they live. (Word to the wise – Italy is a fun place to visit – just don’t have a stroke during your trip.)

Good luck finding that internist. Hope you have your own supplemental insurance.

=====================

Firefly_76 on December 20, 2009 at 7:40 AM
———————
Thank you for educating me regarding the costs of becoming an attorney. My brother-in-law is a patent attorney who recently lost his job – due to cuts in business. I understand this economic mess is also difficult for attorneys.

Unfortunately, attorneys like John Edwards – who made millions off of incorrect science in the courtroom – has yet to return any of his earnings. But, then again, I believe, to be consistent, he worked for it, he earned it. Too bad that obstetrician/gynecologists & anesthesiologists will continue to be held responsible for the health of a child for 18 years after birth…

=====================

Plaintiffs’ malpractice lawyers do not charge by the hour. They charge a percentage of the recovery,

slp on December 20, 2009 at 8:15 AM
———————
Thank you for the clarification – and reminder. Although I can be a bitter bastard, I have worked with malpractice attorneys during med school – and do realize that they do provide a good service – for both defendents and plaintiffs.

There are plenty of cases that warrant awards to a plaintiff. But, there are filed lawsuits (frankly, cases that would not win in court – nor should ever have been filed) – that instead of dropping the cases – usually settle out of court. The firm I worked with was reputable – this was not done much.

There are attorneys (and firms) who file a lawsuit with the goal to settle out of court. They gamble they can outmaneuver the defendent’s attorneys. The physicians – who may actually not have been negligent – may be counselled to settle because it is cheaper for the hospital and the insurance company (holding the policy), to do so. It smacks of sanctioned extortion.

Demographics also matter. Simply speaking – an identical case, if presented in a Detroit courtroom versus a courtroom in western Michigan – may have opposite outcomes.

Am I way off base here? Or is this a fair assessment?

Danny on December 20, 2009 at 10:34 AM

lol hawk! no i think we need you guys to focus on the frontlines, at least while you’re deployed, let those that benefit from your efforts start to pick up a little of the slack and fight for their freedom in the rear areas.

elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:53 PM

elduende is correct. We’ll open a new front here.

Zorro on December 20, 2009 at 10:59 AM

Starting to float around twitter:

NATIONAL STRIKE JAN 20, 2010 to coincide w/ STATE OF UNION SPEECH NATIONWIDE STRIKE over Obamacare & THREATEN we will not PAY INC TAX
elduende on December 19, 2009 at 10:24 PM

I’m in. I’ve been saying this for weeks, I’ll be d@mned if I’ll support this f**king marxist government. I’m retired, a casulty of the economm. I’m retired but my wife still works. If ObamaCrap v.1 passes, she’ll file a W-4 claiming 99 exemptions and we will not, repeat, will not pay income taxes.

Onager on December 20, 2009 at 11:18 AM

“Those who STILL CAN NOT AFFORD HEALTH CARE are imprisoned.”

And receive most excellent health care while in jail.

It may actually be the course of choice for seniors.

Sort of like living together rather than getting married to avoid cuts in Social Security.

enginemike on December 20, 2009 at 11:22 AM

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