Video: U.S. troops try in vain to train Afghan soldiers
posted at 8:43 pm on December 16, 2009 by Allahpundit
It’s nine months old and comes straight from the darkest heart of liberal Britain, a.k.a. the Guardian, but I’m giving it to you anyway because it’s new to me, completely engrossing, and jibes with a story by a major publication that I read just last week.
Even the best Afghan units lack training, discipline and adequate reinforcements. In one new unit in Baghlan Province, soldiers have been found cowering ditches rather than fight. Others routinely steal U.S.-supplied fuel, equipment and weapons. And a few are suspected of collaborating with the Taliban against the Americans.
“I do not feel I am a mentor here,” said Capt. Jason Douthwaite, a logistics officer with the 73rd Troop Command of the Ohio National Guard who has tried to stop rampant pilfering by the Afghan soldiers his unit is training. “I feel like I am an investigating officer. It’s not, ‘Let me teach you your job.’ It’s more like, ‘How much did you steal from the American government today?’”…
During a Taliban ambush, gunfire was coming at the Americans and their Afghan counterparts from three sides. But the Afghan National Army soldiers of the 209 Corps, 2nd Brigade, 3rd Kandak (battalion), fresh out of training in Kabul, were not ready for a fight.
So after returning initial fire, the Afghan soldiers simply lay in a ditch, refusing to budge.
“They don’t have the basics, so they lay down,” said Capt. Michael Bell, who is one of a team of U.S. and Hungarian mentors tasked with making this young kandak battle-ready. “I ran around for an hour trying to get them to shoot, getting fired on. I couldn’t get them to shoot their weapons.”
Which publication was it, you ask. The Times? The Nation? Try Stars and Stripes — and the article only gets worse from there. Question for our military readers who’ve served in Kabul: Has your experience been this discouraging? It blows my mind that these recruits come from the same population as an effective guerrilla force like the Taliban, although a possible explanation for that is mentioned in the clip. No wonder, either, that Gates demanded that the pace of withdrawal be entirely conditions-based. After watching this, Hitchens’s idea of bringing in India instead of handing off to Kabul looks even better than before. Content warning.
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I may be remembering incorrectly, but I thought I saw a while back where libs had taken over the S & S.
Anyone know for sure?
Hard Right on December 16, 2009 at 8:50 PM
You cannot rehabilitate a muslim. I think it’s that simple.
SouthernGent on December 16, 2009 at 8:50 PM
Time to leave. If they’re not willing to fight for themselves, screw ‘em. People like this is why cluster bombs were invented.
GarandFan on December 16, 2009 at 8:52 PM
MacArthur also failed to train the Philipino’s before WWII and then lied and told Roosevelt those troops were in top form.
You can’t teach old dogs new tricks.
Knucklehead on December 16, 2009 at 8:55 PM
They aren’t shooting back because they don’t want to injure their own family or friends, basically.
If they’re not going to do their jobs, then we shouldn’t stay there and allow them to keep sponging off of us in aid and stealing from OUR troops’ stores.
Intrepid on December 16, 2009 at 8:55 PM
To bad we can’t use the ‘Scorched Earth’ policy here. What a wasteland Afghanistan is.
Lance Murdock on December 16, 2009 at 8:56 PM
What a mess. Explains a lot.
WisCon on December 16, 2009 at 8:57 PM
Sadly, this will never happen. The culture in Afghanistan is anti-nationalism. To a Afghani, his enemy list looks something like this:
Me against my brother
My brother and I against our father
My family against the clan
My clan against the tribe
My tribe against our government
My government against my country
My country against the world
and that’s before you add in the implications of Islam. We can’t rehabilitate these people. They are hopeless.
Guardian on December 16, 2009 at 8:57 PM
I fully support the troops. That is why they need to leave Afghanistan and the focus of American efforts needs to be on helping stabilize Pakistan (our real geostrategic interest). The filthy lying coward in the White House has no interest in fighting the war that needs to be fought. His half-measures and lack of resolve only lead to more flag-draped coffins arriving at Dover AFB. Most of the time without a craven cowardly President showing up for a full media blitz designed to send out the propaganda that he cares about soldiers.
highhopes on December 16, 2009 at 8:58 PM
I concur Allah. Let’s bring in India. They wouldn’t put up with this PC crap we here in the Western World are oblige to uphold.
Lance Murdock on December 16, 2009 at 8:59 PM
Like trying to train liberals to live in reality.
csdeven on December 16, 2009 at 9:00 PM
Immediately reminded me of that vid you posted a little while ago, of Iraqi police getting chewed out… HERE (language warning)
But with the Afghans, is that attitude really the rule, or more the exception? It’s just…unreal.
JetBoy on December 16, 2009 at 9:02 PM
They are not fighting because they know we will be gone soon. Better to wait out The One and grab as much stuff as you can in the meantime.
pedestrian on December 16, 2009 at 9:02 PM
“the drugs affect the way they accomplish their mission”???? I’m sorry, if affects the way they accomplish their life. Are these the Berkley Afghanis?
CC
CapedConservative on December 16, 2009 at 9:02 PM
We need to ship our Troops whole truckloads of Snicker’s Bars … “Not goin’ anywhere for a while? Grab a Snicker’s Bar!”
Maybe we need to send planeloads of ANA’s to the U.S. to train them properly.
Tony737 on December 16, 2009 at 9:02 PM
Puts me in mind of the training session from The Man Who Would Be King’.
Michael Caine’s bit is especially good at the 1:00 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX_Yq8u3X6s
Jepper on December 16, 2009 at 9:03 PM
The Taliban are the Afghanis, these Afghan Army pukes seem to be the dregs of their “society.” If Afghanistan is to be changed it has to be American troops stationed for 20 years while we run the school system and develop their culture for them, While killing the Taliban, for 20 years…
Theworldisnotenough on December 16, 2009 at 9:03 PM
It’s not their fight, it’s ours. I still don’t understand the incentive for afghanis. “Learn to fight other muslims so American buildings don’t get blown up”? Why should they care?
JavelinaBomb on December 16, 2009 at 9:03 PM
Looks like a B+ army.
Fletch54 on December 16, 2009 at 9:05 PM
DING!
russcote on December 16, 2009 at 9:05 PM
Ooof…I feel for our guys trying to train a mob like that day after day, how dispiriting.
Would India even want to come in, because if they do the Paks are going to get very nervous and that regional balloon will go up soon after.
Bishop on December 16, 2009 at 9:05 PM
Couldn’t be…or they’d be attacking the military recruiters.
JetBoy on December 16, 2009 at 9:06 PM
Training Iraqis (though some say they’re Afghans) to do jumping jacks
Non-com dresses down cowardly Iraqi police force
Can you train these people (middle-eastern soldiery?) They’re so defeated and useless!
GTR640 on December 16, 2009 at 9:06 PM
this is what you get when you don’t fight total war like we did in WWII…no transformation of the society, no victory for us….we should follow Ann Coulter’s advise, or get out…
right4life on December 16, 2009 at 9:06 PM
This makes sense, if the recruits are coming from where I think they are coming from. I should think this is a standard problem for Third World countries where the national government–and its armed forces–don’t exactly embody the spirit of the people, and the armed force is new.
Or in other words–are these recruits joining just to get three hots and a cot? If so, this doesn’t mean they can’t be turned into fighting material–it’s been done before–just that it may take longer, and the officer corps is key. As well as NCOs. But especially the officer corps.
Basically, these guys have already shown they aren’t going to fight for “Afghanistan”, because they have no idea what “Afghanistan” is (besides some corrupt guys in Western suits, that is), and they aren’t going to fight for regional or clan pride, because my guess is that they are the local “losers”, the bottom rung of local societies who suffer no loss of face when they “take the king’s coin”. So they need to be taught to fight for the pride of the unit and the spirit of the warrior, and this always poses a threat in countries of otherwise weak institutions.
Which is why I have started to be in favor of a more regional based militia systems. There has got to be an Afghan “yeomenry” out there somewhere. I mean, they fought off the Russians, after all…and a lot of others before that…so there has to be some kind of tradition to tap into…
Horatius on December 16, 2009 at 9:09 PM
I can take a group of socially inept high-school educated (or less) farm boys from the surrounding county or residents of any American inner city and within 30 days I can produce an basic but effective infantry platoon. Not SpecOps standards, nor Fort Benning tested and approved, but a platoon that can operate on its own for a set period of time and inflict serious damage to an enemy. Multiply that by several trainers and within six months one can produce an acceptable basic infantry battalion.
As for Afghanistan…totally different rubric.
Language, and tribalism, and ignorance…simple ignorance…makes training of so much as an effective squad difficult in the extreme. They’ve no history of organizing and fighting as a cohesive unit. Even in the darkest days of the Soviet occupation, elements of the muj simply vanished when it came time to go up against small Soviet formations. Individuals scored well, often, but to cite the muj as an effective and organized combat unit schooled in small unit tactics is a stretch. Many of the victories of the muj were because of flawed Soviet Army doctrine than due to an operational advantage of the muj.
Unless the immediate threat of a Taliban return to the countryside is eliminated, and foreign fighters [to include AQ] are driven out of the country or into their graves, the average Afghan will not be able to even glimpse a national identity. Fear of Taliban reprisals prevent a lot of Afghans from giving it their all…and fear of one tribe dominating any military unit also lends to individual Afghans not wishing to engage in such a huge effort at a real national army.
Then there is this ignorance thing.
Not much has changed in the Afghan mindset since the days of the British first crossing the Khyber. Very little has improved in the most rudimentary education of those in the provinces either, save for Koranic schools…they are more pervasive today than they were 100 years or even ten years ago.
If the recruit in front of you does not know how to properly wipe the snot from their own nose, how can one expect them to get into more technical areas of personal hygiene? Further, how can one get them to sense that basic weaponry is a technical tool, in its design and in its application, when they’ve no experience with any but the most rudimentary technologies?
Even the Vietnamese in the former ARVN had a better sense of how to operate as a team to effectively out-perform an enemy.
Afghanistan need not be condemned to being the last vestige of the 10th century forever, but it will take time…a lot of time…to develop an Afghan Army…and one platoon at a time, one squad at a time, from the bottom up, seems the only methodology that shows promise.
In the meantime, overcoming centuries of feuds and distrust of a central government, that is a problem that the foreign advisors and the present Afghan “leadership” must address with alacrity. Given our announced intention by the Obama Administration to leave Afghanistan soonest, seems any attempts to build an Afghan Army at this point are, well, pointless.
Weak horses don’t sell well in the market place.
coldwarrior on December 16, 2009 at 9:09 PM
It’s too bad Executive Outcomes is out of business…
elgeneralisimo on December 16, 2009 at 9:10 PM
Yeah, lets leave..I am sure the Taliban won’t move in again and hit us the first chance they get..great plan…how about instead we get rid of the stupid ROE and kill the freaking terrorists!
EnochCain on December 16, 2009 at 9:10 PM
Oh wait I forgot the hilarious Afghanis doing pushups.
“Is that guy doing the worm?”
GTR640 on December 16, 2009 at 9:11 PM
Holy Crap! They could even make it in Code Pink!
ronsfi on December 16, 2009 at 9:11 PM
I’m afraid we’re asking our troops to do the impossible in Afghanistan.
Bugler on December 16, 2009 at 9:13 PM
Pull our guys out, load up the B-52′s and carpet bomb the sh*t out of that entire god-forsaken wasteland.
Operation Downfall II
Flyboy on December 16, 2009 at 9:13 PM
I certainly hope no one is surprised by this. They are uneducated, tribal, with no high moral discipline, and seventh century mentality. They will follow their tribal leader or mullah, that’s it! The same problem exists in Iraq, but not to this degree. IMO, our efforts in this area are in vain, and a waste of time.
GFW on December 16, 2009 at 9:13 PM
I’m just a civilian but…
1. Learn the damn language. Pushtun is easy, babies speak it. You don’t need the Gettysburg Address, just a simple phrase such as “You! Come here. Your name? You will be punished for disobeying me. Now listen to your sargeant.” Day One, guy.
2. If they fail inspection, don’t excuse them patrol. Strip them naked, and have them walk point unarmed. If they come back they will learn something. If they don’t, you just improved your unit.
3. Don’t yell and not hit them. Don’t hit them too often.
4. If you can’t trust them out of your sight sitting on their asses, don’t let them out of your sight, don’t let them sit on their asses.
5. If Kabul won’t up their pay, skimp yours to get them a trinket. Napoleon handed out scraps of ribbon and some bullshit, and he had thousands of men walking for days for the chance to die in front of him.
Illiterate Romans made the best army in the world. This ain’t rocket science.
Oh if Hitchens thought Pakistan would allow India on a whole other frontier, he must be drinking again.
Chris_Balsz on December 16, 2009 at 9:14 PM
This is what everyone being “civilized” gets you…kill the terrorist bastards..end of war…everyone goes home..yay.
EnochCain on December 16, 2009 at 9:15 PM
Send in The Roach, man.
The Ugly American on December 16, 2009 at 9:15 PM
Fixed.
ronsfi on December 16, 2009 at 9:15 PM
Their motivated and better skilled enemy are also Muslims.
Their own officer described them as ‘exactly the wrong kind’, ‘delinquents’, ‘only here because they’ve been thrown out of their village for misbehaviour’.
In other words, this rabble are bad even by their own low national standards so it seems unfair to blame Islam for their particular state, even if it is responsible in general terms for the wretched condition of their society.
YiZhangZhe on December 16, 2009 at 9:17 PM
No, no…We need to find out what WE did to piss of the “freedom fighters”, and fix it. Then issue a formal apology, and send in tons of $$$ for them to use however.
It’s America’s fault don’t ya know.
/s
JetBoy on December 16, 2009 at 9:19 PM
Patton could fix this.
THE CHOSEN ONE on December 16, 2009 at 9:20 PM
Turn the place into a desert and put up “No Entrance” signs around its entire border. Anyone entering should be shot.
People have a hard time with the concept, but kill every single one of “them” and come home.
And that’s what Alexander the Great should have done going all the way back to ~200 BC.
BowHuntingTexas on December 16, 2009 at 9:20 PM
I’m surprised you haven’t gotten heat for this statement by now.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977700825
Regardless of which decade you are speaking about, comparing the Philippines to Afghanistan is an insult.
Asher on December 16, 2009 at 9:21 PM
You are so right..how bigoted of me..I shall go and ask the One for forgiveness.
EnochCain on December 16, 2009 at 9:21 PM
Why we didn’t make a parking lot out of this place (among others) in 01 is beyond me.
RightWinged on December 16, 2009 at 9:22 PM
The Filipinos fought just as hard as our men..
EnochCain on December 16, 2009 at 9:22 PM
No one fights like a Western man.
DerKrieger on December 16, 2009 at 9:23 PM
Horatius on December 16, 2009 at 9:24 PM
Forgot about them. Foot in mouth. But they did have the benefit of being a US territory for a long time
DerKrieger on December 16, 2009 at 9:24 PM
I don’t think the property is worth another drop of our blood….Bring our heroes home and build a whole bunch more drones. We can keep the bad guys on the run with those. Time for a 21st century offensive.
PaCadle on December 16, 2009 at 9:24 PM
Can we all please remember this the next time a conservative columnist, or person posting on HA, says s/he doesn’t believe we should remain in Afghanistan or Iraq? This is not the same thing as Japan and Germany post-WWII–the circumstances are different, the people are different, and the way we handle things now is vastly different, in a PC-tie-our-own-hands-behind-our-backs kind of way.
DrMagnolias on December 16, 2009 at 9:24 PM
Yeah, the Bataan death march was voluntary…
EnochCain on December 16, 2009 at 9:25 PM
Should read:
Yeah, that’s what I was kinda afraid of.
Horatius on December 16, 2009 at 9:25 PM
The guy who did the Vice guide to North Korea he had a similar videos, it showed some of the troops High standing up with no cover laughing and a bullet hits his gun, but it was with British Troops.
Patricksp on December 16, 2009 at 9:25 PM
Sorry, overly sensitive…wife is from the Philippines.
EnochCain on December 16, 2009 at 9:25 PM
My brother-in-law spent a year in Afghanistan trying to train the people responsible for rebuilding the Afghani airline infrastructure. He learned that 75% of the population in Afghanistan is illiterate, there is a massive drug addiction problem and the society is corrupt. If we can get over that, all will be fine.
::Sigh::
cannonball on December 16, 2009 at 9:31 PM
There’s child soldiers with better discipline. Looks like the afghan government has a bit of a problem knowing why and what to do.
the_nile on December 16, 2009 at 9:32 PM
PERFECT!!!
n0doz on December 16, 2009 at 9:33 PM
The incentive is that the vast majority of the Afghans don’t want the Taliban to return to power. But they’re going to have to learn to fend off the Taliban on their own eventually, we can’t be there holding their hand forever.
SDnocoen on December 16, 2009 at 9:33 PM
Reminds me of Bill Crosby when he was just getting started with comedy record albums.
Bill Cosby [teaching his nephew to throw a football]: OK, throw me the ball.
[empty woosh, woosh sound]
Bill Cosby: Pick it up first.
MB4 on December 16, 2009 at 9:35 PM
What I learned about training Iranian troops:
+ This was the first time some of them had regular meals. Guess why they pilfer and sit on their asses. Best things have ever been for them. Risk it by being a warrior, pushing hard? That’s a big request.
+ If you can get to a few of them, they can help pull the rest along.
+ Basic mechanical skills are really skimpy. At the most basic level, relating cause and effect are difficult.
+ Thumping someone may well be how to communicate. I never did, but the training was not combat engagement. In combat, some things need to be reflex, and motivating troops may be that they fear you more than the enemy, sort of. A very fine line, that. But the note about Napoleon is accurate, and the behavior of these troops will resemble Napoleon’s much more than any US unit.
+ This war is going to be a lot harder than Iraq, because the Iraqis are relatively sophisticated and have something they want to protect. The Afghanis don’t have much of either…but they also had a national election and brandished purple thumbs (proving they had voted) proudly. There is a vein to tap here. How to is the question.
Harry Schell on December 16, 2009 at 9:39 PM
Yet they can learn quickly to blow us up…odd.
tomas on December 16, 2009 at 9:40 PM
KHAN NESHIN, Afghanistan— The U.S. Marines were tense looking for bombs buried near a mud compound in this remote farming town in southern Afghanistan. Their new Afghan police colleagues were little help, joking around and sucking on lollipops meant for local kids.
The Marines’ experience in Khan Neshin, once a key Taliban stronghold in volatile Helmand province, shows just how difficult the task will be.
The provincial government fired the last group of police assigned to Khan Neshin after more than half of them failed a drug test, prompting them to rebel by throwing rocks at the Marines.
MB4 on December 16, 2009 at 9:41 PM
I have a friend over there who says the Afghans he is trying to train are pretty darn clueless. I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
chicagojedi on December 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM
Those soldiers look like they need to go to boot camp.
More of our ‘kid gloves’ policies in effect I am sure. Can’t push the Afghan soldiers too hard or force them into battle readiness.
They also look like a broken people. That national pride speech went nowhere.
Mr Purple on December 16, 2009 at 9:47 PM
Pakistan would go ape sh!t if you brought in their most bitter enemy India on their other border…
Kaptain Amerika on December 16, 2009 at 9:51 PM
The significance of [Ann] Jones’ reportage is of the time-honored Emperor Has No Clothes kind. She writes:
In the current policy debate about the Afghan War in Washington, Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin wants the Afghans to defend their country. Senator John McCain, the top Republican on the committee, agrees but says they need even more help from even more Americans. The common ground — the sacred territory President Obama gropes for — is that, whatever else happens, the U.S. must speed up the training of “the Afghan security forces.”
American military planners and policymakers already proceed as if, with sufficient training, Afghans can be transformed into scale-model, wind-up American Marines. That is not going to happen. Not now. Not ever. No matter how many of our leaders concur that it must happen — and ever faster.
If Jones is correct — and the evidence (still no musterable Afghan army) is already on her side — the proposal to expand further the already invisible Afghan forces to ever greater numbers as a point of the “COIN” equations computed by Frederick and Kimberly Kagan, among others, becomes more and more a figment of theoretical mathematics, a maze of hieroglyphics on a chalkboard.
Toward the end of the essay, Jones writes:
There is, by the way, plenty of evidence that Taliban fighters get along just fine, fighting fiercely and well without the training lavished on the ANA and the ANP. Why is it that Afghan Taliban fighters seem so bold and effective, while the Afghan National Police are so dismally corrupt and the Afghan National Army a washout?
MB4 on December 16, 2009 at 9:54 PM
If I had to live in a craphole like Afghanistan, I’d be stoned all the time too. Its frigging mountains and desert. Why do you think all our Army soldiers on the frontier were raging alcoholics in the 19th century?
Speedwagon82 on December 16, 2009 at 9:55 PM
I see people who apparently haven’t suffered enough at the hands of Muslim extremists to want a better life.
Why don’t we let them learn in the School of Hard Knocks?
Dark-Star on December 16, 2009 at 10:00 PM
Well said, I concur.
royzer on December 16, 2009 at 10:01 PM
“they” the Taliban? The Taliban have Chechins and Saudis to train them–and planting an IED is a single act which can be done by one or two individuals with no group cohesion or fighting skills. If you watched the video and can think, you noticed that the mission here is to train an army
Janos Hunyadi on December 16, 2009 at 10:07 PM
Hah, those guys look like specops hard chargers compared to the beaners we had to train in El Salvador in the 80′s.
At least these dopes have shoes, uniforms and weapons. We were assigned a barefoot platoon in gym shorts and tee shirts that carried around a water cooled 30 cal machine gun from WWII with the entire bolt assembly rusted solid. They stole everything that you weren’t carrying on your person, we even had to post a guard on our diesel soaked water buffalo cuz they would drain it for the “American water”.
3rd world cesspool nations are the same all over the world, it’s Obamas dream to make us into one.
Alden Pyle on December 16, 2009 at 10:07 PM
Ambassador to Afghanistan: R. Lee Ermey
THE CHOSEN ONE on December 16, 2009 at 10:07 PM
It looks to me that we sent a bunch of our US 20 year old liberals to Afghan to serve in the army there.
notagool on December 16, 2009 at 10:14 PM
Backwards population is backwards.
exception on December 16, 2009 at 10:16 PM
Get our boys and girls out now! Iraq might make it, Afghanistan has no chance.
I agree, didn’t Obama say he wanted to bomb Pakistan in 2008?
IowaWoman on December 16, 2009 at 10:18 PM
Ug… They should call it facepalmistan.
liquidflorian on December 16, 2009 at 10:21 PM
This makes no sense. How does leaving Afghanistan help stabilize a US interest in Pakistan? Oh I see, “filthy lying coward“, it all makes sense now.
This blog is a real Russian Roulette of comments with first chastising the POTUS for or not sending more troops and now for not closing up shop.
disillusioned on December 16, 2009 at 10:29 PM
eff them, let them rot in that armpit of a country. Pull out, scorch any thing that remotely resembles AQ.
Alden Pyle on December 16, 2009 at 10:36 PM
How hard could it possibly be to motivate people in a country where $500/month makes you a king?
THE FIRST STEP in any training program is to separate the people who can’t cut the mustard from the people who can. If only 15% of them are trainable, so freaking what? Just throw the other 85% back into the gutter they crawled out of and train the holy living piss out of rest of them.
If the American trainers aren’t able to flunk recruits out of the program, it’s because somebody up top is doing nothing but bragging about how many numbers he can add to a spreadsheet.
logis on December 16, 2009 at 10:37 PM
“Why is it that Afghan Taliban fighters seem so bold and effective, while the Afghan National Police are so dismally corrupt and the Afghan National Army a washout?”
Because the Taliban are purpose – driven and believe in their mission. Expecting the the hash smoking Afghan army to care about the fight is like asking the pot smoking loser to be a patriot. It’s just not in them and never will be.
flameofjudah on December 16, 2009 at 10:39 PM
Doesn’t look like their hearts are in it. How then can they/we possibly succeed? And when even Obama refuses to speak in terms of victory, what kind of leadership is that?
paul1149 on December 16, 2009 at 10:44 PM
The first American trained South Korean soldiers were no different but the Americans there were fresh from WWII and when the ROK troops figured out that Americans were just as likely to shoot cowards as they were the enemy, they shaped up pretty quick.
ROK troops became some of the toughest, nastiest soldiers on the planet, Afghans grow up in a barbaric bloody culture there’s no reason they can’t fight, they need motivation achieved from respect, or fear, take your pick.
Speakup on December 16, 2009 at 10:47 PM
Obama’s 18-month timeline: “Hey, we did our best, it was Goerge W. Bu…..uhhhh…I mean, it was the Afghans who failed.”
David2.0 on December 16, 2009 at 10:48 PM
The we can’t, lets leave, pu$$y posts on this thread make me want to barf.
Using the same attitude as unmotivated Afghans is a great way to lose.
Speakup on December 16, 2009 at 10:52 PM
Not one single American or Coalition Force need die for these people until they are ready to fight for their own freedom…
EIGHT YEARS AND A TROOP OF BOY SCOUTS COULD CAPTURE THEIR FLAG!?!?!?!?!?!
Let India sort it out…
Seven Percent Solution on December 16, 2009 at 10:57 PM
Like trying to train rocks to tap dance.
Geronimo on December 16, 2009 at 11:13 PM
What is needed is a rather flamboyant choreographer waving his hands in the air shouting “People, people, what is our motivation here? Let’s get with it. From the top, step, two, three, four, and turn, and tush thrust. Once again. Music!” /
coldwarrior on December 16, 2009 at 11:17 PM
Allahpundit, Stars and Stripes fits right in with the NYTimes and the Nation. It’s reputation in the military is well known for being extremely liberal. That doesn’t change the content… that’s pretty bad.
BUT…. I also know there are units in Afghaninstan that have a wonderful comradarie with the Afghans and they are training the units well. For example, I went to a memorial service for COL James Harrison when we were stationed at Ft.Leavenworth…. Harrison was killed in Afghanistan and this Afghan COL grieved openly in this letter that was read at the memorial service.
While the video you posted is pretty damn disturbing, it isn’t the whole story. But Afghanistan is definitely harder than Iraq.
Amy Proctor on December 16, 2009 at 11:18 PM
Even back in the 70′s, we called the S&S “The Stares and Lies” so liberal was its overall reporting. Seemd to only report on problems within the military, or complaints from dependents, and little else that interfered with its “independent” editorial stance. heaven forbid there’d be any reporting on what was going right among the mud soldiers in Europe at the time, after Vietnam.
In Kabul and adjacent areas, up to Mazzar-i-sharif, there is and has been some sort of “identity” for Afghans, but in the south and along the Pak border, there is almost none of anything resembling a national identity. Thus the northern Afghans seem to be more able to put together some sort of infantry oriented national army…which is anathema
to the rest of Afghanistan, tribalism in fear of a central government not of their making nor of their people.
Add to that that Afghans not from Kabul or north who are in general gravitating toward the military are overall not the best of the best, and seem to be in it out of desire for free food and clothing, a chance to settle old scores, and perhaps a chance to eventually use their new skills to challenge the Kabul government, and trying to get these guys to march in step is a major task. With our announced intent to leave ASAP, would you, as an Afghan, from the south, through in with the US or NATO? The black turbaned Taliban has a long memory and little desire to be moderate when it comes to going after any and all who are in league with Kabul or the Great Satan.
Telling the Taliban and AQ our strategic plans seems to have been one of the gaffes of the century, and we are not even through the first decade yet.
coldwarrior on December 16, 2009 at 11:34 PM
This is why this venture is a lost cause. You can’t help people who don’t want your help and can’t help themselves. It has always been a failure of arab/muslim culture. To think that you can turn Afghanistan or Iraq into postwar Germany or Japan completely ignores culture. It is a bottomless pit.
Steve Sailor discusses this phenomenon in this article that is a must read for everyone who has not addressed this before.
You protect America by kicking the terrorists out of America, first. That might be a good place to start. Beginning with the Army.
keep the change on December 16, 2009 at 11:40 PM
All they need is hope and change. That’ll work.
Mojave Mark on December 16, 2009 at 11:43 PM
Remember that the Jihadis issue bombs, bullets, and drugs to their fighters. You probably find almost as many blister-packs of pills as ammo when their arms caches are busted. They get drugged up, BIG TIME, before they start their Jihad for Allah.
Also, those Afghanis aren’t smoking weed. We’re talking hashish. It is like weed on steroids!!! In Arabic, the word “hashisheen” became the English word for “assassin,” meaning folks who smoke hashish to get stoked up to make a suicidal assault.
I bet the Taliban are just as drugged up as the Afghan army, the difference is in the motivation.
Maybe we need to set up a HUGE radio station and play Pink Floyd tunes 24 hours a day…
shorebird on December 16, 2009 at 11:50 PM
We face serious problems.
Option 1: Bug out
Result: Taliban returns to power, provides Al Qaeda with resources and space to prepare future attacks against the US.
Option 2: Continue with present plan. Hope that a surge gives the Afghans enough time to get their stuff together.
Concern: This leaves the initiative with the Afghans not us- do we have the political will to endure that long? What if it takes 4 or 5 years instead of 1 or 2?
Option 3: Turn the Army into more than just a military organization, make it into a combination of High School, Technical College, super-Boy Scouts, and military. Essentially make becoming a soldier attractive to men who want to make something of themselves, not just a holding pen for losers and human refuse. Perhaps we could turn the military into the culture backbone of a centralized Afghan identity- seeing as the government sucks rocks.
Concern: Will cost a lot of money, require even more soldiers in a surge to support and also probably take at least 4 to 5 years- but at least the chance of success is higher than Option 2- and we’d be in greater control.
Option 4: Go all Operation Phoenix on them. Pakistan and Afghanistan both. And not just Predator drones, I mean full on assassination squads running around killing not just Taliban military targets but also civilian leaders who are supporting them. Yeah. CIA death squads- and without the legal restrictions of the actual Phoenix program, it’ll be more like the Hollywood conception of the program. Somehow I don’t think the liberals are going to go for it. Heck, even I’m not sure how I feel about that idea.
Option 5: Scratch the central government/military idea. Get the tribal chiefs council- or whoever it was that drew up the Constitution to draw up a new one, this time with a very weak central government- maybe something like the Articles of Confederation. Basically providing common coinage, a place for local governments (based on tribes) to negotiate, and a framework for organizing defense against foreign invasion. Instead start arming and training local militia. Probably could get some of the “soft” “Taliban” who don’t really believe in their ideology but are dissatisfied with the central government, or have some tribal loyalties ect, to switch sides. Would probably end up with several intra-militia fights, but hey, maybe it’s worth it to create an atmosphere that is hostile to the Taliban- they still aren’t that popular in most places.
Nothing on that list looks all that appetizing.
Sackett on December 17, 2009 at 12:02 AM
The USA is a Christian country, Hence …
father on December 17, 2009 at 12:37 AM
Might as well try to teach a box of hammers how to dance.
…sucks
SilverStar830 on December 17, 2009 at 12:38 AM
A Jew lady once told me that Islamic lifestyle is filled with lies and dishonesty, Hence …
father on December 17, 2009 at 12:38 AM
They seemed to not be getting punished much for those infractions. Maybe that should change?
aikidoka on December 17, 2009 at 12:39 AM
So basically you are saying in a thousand years or so they should be able to master 20th warfare? That’s encouraging… especially since we should be doing 30th century stuff by then…
There has got to be a way to fix this! This is actually part of what led to colonialism. Such a vast difference in technology and education. But we should be able to learn from the past and educate them.
We need to take a jump in imagination as well!
petunia on December 17, 2009 at 12:53 AM
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