The VAT is back!
posted at 10:10 am on December 12, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Democrats in Congress have floated various ways of increasing taxes in their health-care reform, and have applied most of them at one time or another in the bill. Taxes have hit medical devices, capital gains, an income-tax hike on the higher income brackets, and even taxes on cosmetic surgery — even though the current insurance model has nothing to do with the vast majority of the cosmetic-surgery market. This constant stream of tax hikes has the electorate angry and protesting, and it has sapped all of the support from their health-care efforts.
Have Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid gotten the message? Not really, as the New York Times reports in yesterday’s article, “Many See VAT Option as a Cure for Deficits”:
Runaway federal deficits have thrust a politically unsavory savior into the spotlight: a nationwide tax on goods and services.
Members of Congress, like their constituents, are squeamish about such ideas, instead suggesting spending cuts or higher taxes on the rich. But with a lack of political will to do the former, and a practical ceiling to how much revenue can be milked from the latter, economists across the political spectrum say a consumption tax may be inevitable once the economy fully recovers.
“We have to start paying our bills eventually,” said Charles E. McLure, a tax economist who worked in the Reagan administration. “This strikes me as the best and most obvious way of doing it.”
The favored route of economists is known as a value-added tax, which is a tax on goods and services that is collected at every step along the production chain, from raw material to a consumer’s shopping bag. Similar to a sales tax, it generally results in consumers paying more for the things they buy. The revenues could be used to pay for health care or other social programs, or just to pay down existing debt.
Like universal health care, every other industrialized country in the world already has a value-added tax (as do about 100 emerging countries). And also like universal health care, this once-taboo policy option has recently been invoked, at times begrudgingly, by many prominent Washingtonians, including the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi; John Podesta, who was co-chairman of President Obama’s transition team; and two former Federal Reserve chairmen, Alan Greenspan and Paul A. Volcker.
Yes, I’m sure that “many” see that as a “cure.” On the other hand, many, many more see a reduction in spending as the more obvious “cure” for deficit spending. It’s akin to saying that a Harvey Wallbanger is a “cure” for hangovers. Instead of exercising fiscal discipline themselves, Congress wants a cure that allows them to continue the same irresponsible spending that put them in deficit in the first place.
Why a VAT, instead of a federal sales tax? The government gets to wet its beak at every point in the distribution cycle with a VAT:
Let’s say the value-added tax is 10 percent. The government will collect some tax revenue in each step of the production process, from roll of fabric to cocktail-party scene-stealer, but each business in the chain gets credit for the tax already paid by other suppliers.
When selling the cloth to the tailor, the fabric store adds a tax of 10 percent, or $1 on the $10 of supplies the tailor purchases. The tailor pays the fabric store $11, and the store remits $1 to the government.
When the tailor sells his dress to Macy’s, he calculates the value-added tax as $3, or 10 percent of his $30 pretax price. Macy’s pays the tailor $33.
But instead of sending the full $3 to the government, the tailor gets to subtract the $1 of taxes he had already paid to the fabric store. So he sends $2 to the government.
When Macy’s sells the dress to a shopper, it adds another 10 percent, so the shopper pays $55, or $50 plus $5 in tax. That would be in addition to any state or local sales taxes consumers have to pay, depending on the locale.
Macy’s checks to see how much the previous companies in the supply chain — the fabric store and the tailor — have already paid the government in value-added taxes, and subtracts that from the $5. Macy’s ends up remitting just $2 to the government.
Got all that? A federal sales tax would at least have the virtue of simplicity. In this case, the complex nature of the tax collection will require more enforcement and more paperwork for compliance. What happens when the tailor doesn’t comply? Is Macy’s on the hook for the whole $5 and then have to appeal to get it back?
The Fair Tax system envisions a federal sales tax that replaces the current income tax system. Democrats want this on top of the current system, even though it would wind up being much less progressive than the current tax system. As the Times explains, that’s part of the appeal:
Unlike income taxes, which are often front-loaded on the rich, then subsequently diluted, a value-added tax is paid by almost everybody. That broad base is one of its major advantages, and why the International Monetary Fund frequently recommends it to countries that need to raise money quickly.
What is good for economic purposes, however, can be bad politics, especially since Mr. Obama pledged not to raise taxes on the bottom 95 percent of Americans.
As Democrats get more and more desperate to fund their hard-Left agenda, keep an eye out for VAT proposals. If we’re worried about consumer confidence now, just wait until we start slapping taxes across the entire retail distribution chain.









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I’m sorry, but these people need to be put out of their misery.
singlemalt_18 on December 12, 2009 at 10:14 AM
Stunningly ignorant of simple economics. OR, if you were trying to cripple the economy, they’ve done it perfectly to this point. Hmmmmmm
marklmail on December 12, 2009 at 10:15 AM
Actually, what you’re pointing out about the VAT is the major selling point. A retail sales tax, like the Fair Tax, has a huge compliance problem. In Texas, we were stretching things at 8.5%. The VAT becomes self-enforcing, because no producer can get their VAT refunded without paying it.
Bruce Bartlett has been writing a lot about the VAT. He’s persuasive but I’d prefer a corporate flat tax.
Hal_10000 on December 12, 2009 at 10:16 AM
pass a vat and the gop re-takes Congress.
by the way, any vat would be on top of existing taxes.
rob verdi on December 12, 2009 at 10:18 AM
FIFY.
psrch on December 12, 2009 at 10:18 AM
FTFY
Kafir on December 12, 2009 at 10:20 AM
Generally? It has a direct result.
One dirty little secret of the VAT in most other places is that if the goods are for export, the VAT is refunded.
BacaDog on December 12, 2009 at 10:21 AM
I’m fine with VAT if it replaces the income tax.
BPD on December 12, 2009 at 10:21 AM
Can you imagine the IT costs imposed upon every business in America to have their systems upgraded to handle and track VAT through the entire system of production through sales? It will cost untold billions and will make Y2K look like child’s play. I wonder how many other hidden costs are lurking in VAT imposition?
stvnscott on December 12, 2009 at 10:21 AM
Know what? I`ll just buy less. I can do without more food than I`m doing now and I`ll let more of my clothes go ratty.
Thanks D.C.
ThePrez on December 12, 2009 at 10:22 AM
Get out in your neighborhoods and start working toward November 2010. These people need to be thrown out.
suzyk on December 12, 2009 at 10:24 AM
So keep the existing taxes and tack on a VAT, great move.
At least the savings rate will increase because people will stop buying anything but the necessities. Then again the feds will find a way to tax savings too so I suppose it’s a wash.
Bishop on December 12, 2009 at 10:24 AM
Imagine how a VAT will work when buying a car or maybe a home.
Take a $20,000 car which is subject to say, 10% sales tax in the State where you buy it. At in a VAT and you’re paying $24,000 for it, absent title and other fees. And if you bought your car out-of-state, you’re liable for a ‘use’ tax when you get home. Let’s say another 10% tax.
So you’re in the hole $6000 in taxes alone. Remember what happened to boat makers when the government added a ‘luxury tax’ on such items in the 80s?
General Motors is basically Government Motors now. With a VAT, GM will become Goodbye Motors.
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:24 AM
Just wait for all the screams from activists for exemptions for their particular hobby horse.
OldEnglish on December 12, 2009 at 10:24 AM
OT- Missed this ….from Yahoo News:
Yep no lib media bias in the news . /
And no they don’t have hollywood either. /
CWforFreedom on December 12, 2009 at 10:25 AM
Enough already. Rope, meet lamp-post. Meet politician.
AttilaTheHun on December 12, 2009 at 10:25 AM
Great minds think alike – Thanks!
I too think that a national sales or vat would be of value if income tax is repealed.
We have too much going on in the grey (and black) markets that need to be captured, but they will never do that.
singlemalt_18 on December 12, 2009 at 10:26 AM
Don’t worry. After this the government can give you a home and of course you can ride the bus. /
CWforFreedom on December 12, 2009 at 10:27 AM
(**) Some assembly required…
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:28 AM
Ah, but if a VAT is applied to services, do I have to pay an added tax on my fare?
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:29 AM
Goody! I’ve been looking for more ways to fu** my own government and economy, now I can add not buying anything to my list!
abobo on December 12, 2009 at 10:29 AM
Just think of all the jobs created by that broken window!
/s
JusDreamin on December 12, 2009 at 10:30 AM
A VAT is a totally regressive tax that hits the poor the hardest.
These Dems are insane! But we know that already.
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:31 AM
The typical person has already paid the same $6000 in income taxes anyway; it really would be more of a zero sum gain.
singlemalt_18 on December 12, 2009 at 10:31 AM
That is not on any legislator’s radar, Democrat or Republican, but it should be.
txsurveyor on December 12, 2009 at 10:31 AM
Very
Angry
Taxpayers…
Are coming after all of you!
TXUS on December 12, 2009 at 10:32 AM
Until they add the under-consumption tax.
ThePrez on December 12, 2009 at 10:32 AM
Quickly too … before they make us all poor and miserable.
darwin on December 12, 2009 at 10:33 AM
Costa Rica’s looking better all the time.
Bugler on December 12, 2009 at 10:33 AM
You know what’s the cure for deficits?!
NOT INCREASING THE DEBT CEILING BY 2 TRILLION DOLLARS!
Skywise on December 12, 2009 at 10:33 AM
Dealt with VAT in the Hungarian business world. Freaking nightmare. Besides making EVERYTHING 25% more expensive for consumers, it’s nothing but another invitation to have an entirely new set of government weasels poking through EVERY aspect of your business to ensure you are complying with complex VAT reporting rules. Makes Sarbanes-Oxley look like nothing.
Its like these idiots in DC WANT to be run out of town tarred and feathered.
AttilaTheHun on December 12, 2009 at 10:33 AM
A significant federal consumption tax plus a significant federal income tax is an equal oportunity economic drag. A federal VAT or Fair Tax is fine if it is coupled with a repeal of the 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
chaswv on December 12, 2009 at 10:34 AM
With the simple model depicted above for a garment, the net additional cost to the consumer is (1.1)**(N+1) where N is the number of middlemen before the consumer receives the garment. It doesn’t take very many steps to double the cost of an item using this tax.
unclesmrgol on December 12, 2009 at 10:35 AM
We will keep suffering under these twits until we pry the statists out of academia & the media.
Until that time, any backlash will be fleeting because the indoctrination of new voters will continue.
OhioCoastie on December 12, 2009 at 10:35 AM
Generally? It results in people being unable to buy anything, especially people living on a tight budget. Forget any luxuries … like maybe a movie or dinner. This will drive the final stake into the American economy.
Is a couple million people enough to sweep through Washington and drive these scum out of town … or out of the country?
darwin on December 12, 2009 at 10:36 AM
The govt. will be running the transit systems, so yeah!
thomasaur on December 12, 2009 at 10:37 AM
Most revenue government takes in goes to the bureaucracy that runs it. If a VAT is ‘expected’ to rake in a billion dollars, $600 million or so of that will go for pay to the workers running the system.
Then when sales decrease and the ‘expected’ amount is lower than expected…
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:37 AM
Mmmmmmmm… taxes across the entire retail distribution chain… aahahlhahghghhaghahghghgh…
/homer pelosi
LibTired on December 12, 2009 at 10:38 AM
Get rid of all federal social and education programs.
darwin on December 12, 2009 at 10:38 AM
+ 1.
BallisticBob on December 12, 2009 at 10:38 AM
You betcha.
A “fare” always involves services provided by the transporter. They collect taxes based on what they needed to purchase to ferry you across the grid (reduced by a capitation rate), plus their profit on your journey.
unclesmrgol on December 12, 2009 at 10:40 AM
Harvey Wallbanger, Ed? Seriously? Exactly how old are you?
Puddleglum on December 12, 2009 at 10:41 AM
This will never happen if they put in a vat tax. The Senate is poised to pass the 1.1 trillion omnibus bull$hit bill the house just passed. This is where that money is going to go. It’s not going to go to any of these programs just the added spending. It really sucks. We are beyond F**ked.
We live out of state and are residents of WI. Everytime we buy a car we do not pay tax to the state we are living in but WI. It’s totally legal. That way we aren’t double taxed. We pay our car tags from WI too. They allow that for the military so we are ok there.
Brat4life on December 12, 2009 at 10:42 AM
That’s exactly what I figured. Regressive, as I said. I take the bus and see a lot of people on fixed incomes. VAT would really hurt those people. Before the death panels get to them, of course.
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Jumpin’ catfish…somebody tell me this is all a bad dream. Are we really and truly thinking about implementing a VAT?!
Forget cap-and-trade and the healthcare ‘reform’, this will send our nation’s economy down in flames in a year or less!
Dark-Star on December 12, 2009 at 10:45 AM
Another stimulus program for lawyers and accountants…
phreshone on December 12, 2009 at 10:46 AM
Not all states allow that, far as I know. The same with state income taxes.
When I lived in PA but worked in NJ, the two states allowed that a worker pays only into the state of residency. I think PA also had something similar with OH.
But PA and NY had no such agreement, so the worker got double-dipped. That may have changed by now but I don’t know.
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Congress is embarking on a quest to drive the citizen insane. There is precedent for this, prohibition.
trapeze on December 12, 2009 at 10:48 AM
While the ideas these folks keep coming up with are frightening, in my mind’s eye I see them all running around with their hands in the air slaming into each other. They really seem to be grasping at straws and very incoherent.
Cindy Munford on December 12, 2009 at 10:48 AM
Everything these people have done, are doing and want to do borders on treason.
These people are at a minimum criminal.
darwin on December 12, 2009 at 10:48 AM
What Americans are demanding all of this out of control spending that we “lack the political will” to end? I’m sure as heck not. This is pure insanity. There is zero, zip, nada fiscal discipline in DC.
DerKrieger on December 12, 2009 at 10:48 AM
its time for the 75% tax rate on all people with law degrees, living or working within a 200 mile radius of DC
phreshone on December 12, 2009 at 10:49 AM
Wait wait wait…are you saying that Harvey Wallbangers don’t cure hangovers? So that’s my problem!
Pope Linus on December 12, 2009 at 10:49 AM
Double-dip recession & double-digit inflation, baby. It’s gonna be the 1970s all over again. Dig it.
OhioCoastie on December 12, 2009 at 10:49 AM
I am SOOOOO glad that the elite GOP insiders in the McCain campaign thought it was “old news” and yesterday’s thinking to attack Obama nd the dems has tax and spend liberals.
I mean would you attack the dems on an issue like that. Theywere running on tax cuts. I mean liberals would never lie to win an election would they?
The idiots in the GOp leadership must go. They should be ramming even the idea of tax increaes down the dems thoart everyday all day long.
unseen on December 12, 2009 at 10:49 AM
Liam- Bus travel will be FREE !!!
/
CWforFreedom on December 12, 2009 at 10:50 AM
One would suspect that the actions of Greg Craig and Eric Holder are deeply into Treason territory
phreshone on December 12, 2009 at 10:51 AM
Maybe it has to do with being military. I have done this twice now and the car dealership even helped us out. Our home of record is WI and I have bought cars in differnent stated and used WI sales tax. I know if we used the state that we were living in sales tax WI would want their cut.
Brat4life on December 12, 2009 at 10:51 AM
If we ran our personal finances like Washington runs the country’s, we’d be up on RICO charges. Imagine being able to extort higher pay from your boss at the point of a gun!
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:52 AM
So…this replaces the income tax, right?
Tax on windows in your home coming soon I suppose.
Dr. ZhivBlago on December 12, 2009 at 10:52 AM
Nothing will change until the American people begin treating politicians like the scummy bottom-feeding carp that they are. They need to be mocked at the airport. Openly laughed at in public. Scorned on the street. I’d pay good money to see Nancy Pelosi’s ugly botoxed mug get splattered with a purple slurpee on the evening news. I’ve been a pretty mild-mannered dude my whole life. Not anymore. I’m tired tired tired of this crap. This news, and the news that public employees now AVERAGE 71K a year in salary while hard-working, tax paying businessmen like myself struggle to keep my current employees, well, EMPLOYED, have pushed me right to the edge. Screw democrats. And screw the accommodating, here-let-me-bend-over-the-coffee-table-for-you quisling Republicans who enable these jackasses. I’m looking at YOU, you retarded Maine twins and YOU, Lindsay Graham.
I am so sick of Republicans who rather than reject this crap platter outright, think they are doing us a favor by making the platter a wee bit smaller and adding a little parsley garnish to it. Then pat themselves on the back for “standing up for the American people”. Screw all of you.
AttilaTheHun on December 12, 2009 at 10:53 AM
About the only way that lady will be right is if we truly invade the Middle East for its oil.
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:54 AM
There’s no “borders on” about it. This, like so many moves planned or executed by the Osama Obama Goon Squad in D.C., is plain treason.
They violate the Constitution with impunity. They work to destroy average Americans while fattening their bank accounts and living the good life on theft and illegal donations.
In short, an average citizen would be facing years — decades, maybe — in prison for what politicians do daily. But they have insulated themselves for any possible punishment. And, I fear, they will soon be emboldened to insulate themselves further.
In the words of Al Jolson: “you ain’t seen nothin’ yet!”
MrScribbler on December 12, 2009 at 10:55 AM
Hell, let the Democrats pass their VAT. And right after that, they can start reserving moving vans to avoid the rush come November 2010.
GarandFan on December 12, 2009 at 10:55 AM
No. Don’t ever support a VAT. European governments love the VAT because the amount of the tax is hidden from the consumer and can thus be raised repeatedly with no impact to the careers of the money grubbing pols. I support a sales tax that is on my sales receipt.
As an example of how these pols work consider Cap & Trade. A GOP Rep (have to look up who it was) introduced a bill that would have required any company whose prices to consumers increased due to C&T to include the C&T tax amount on the bill or receipt. The amendment was defeated along party lines by the Dems. They don’t want you to know how much you’re being fleeced.
DerKrieger on December 12, 2009 at 10:58 AM
+1000
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:58 AM
Democrats = egg sucking dogs.
rplat on December 12, 2009 at 11:00 AM
Rush has said the same thing for years about income taxes. If we didn’t have withholding like before WWII, and people had to write checks every year to Washington, there’d be an instant revolution.
Liam on December 12, 2009 at 11:01 AM
How many tax cheats did it take to come up with this hair brain scam? You do notice that the end of the line (us) gets left holding the tax bag.
Kissmygrits on December 12, 2009 at 11:04 AM
I really doubt that a VAT could ever pass. Anyone that voted for it would be committing political suicide. Except those Leftists in safe seats.
DerKrieger on December 12, 2009 at 11:08 AM
VAT is 17.5% in the UK.
Figure that into your spending and weep.
Track-A-'Crat on December 12, 2009 at 11:19 AM
+ Eleventy1!!
BallisticBob on December 12, 2009 at 11:21 AM
It’s not fine, the cost of compliance would put a lot of small businesses out of business. I worked on a SOX software project, it was a nightmare. That company had to pay for months of expensive software development, plus had to hire a team of auditors to evaluate 50,000 employees access to hundreds of applications to make sure they didn’t conflict. They had to do the evaluation quarterly. Before our software project, it took them an entire quarter to get it done, then immediately start over. After the project, it took 2 weeks. A flat Fair Tax would be the best solution and would have the added benefit of eliminating most of the IRS.
But even that only applied to publicly-traded companies, not small businesses. Smart companies went private rather than deal with the headache and expense.
If the VAT ever passed, I predict a huge surge in barter. We already did that this summer by trading a finished basement bathroom for a car.
Common Sense on December 12, 2009 at 11:26 AM
But … but, they get crappy health care and a bloated socialist government. Isn’t it worth it to get that?
darwin on December 12, 2009 at 11:27 AM
I wouldn’t mind a VAT designed specifically to end the defecit (that does not come remotely near the general funds Congress uses), but that would have to be AFTER they stop these job killing proposals and find they can’t generate enough revenue
Defector01 on December 12, 2009 at 11:36 AM
How the mighty have fallen.
Dark-Star on December 12, 2009 at 11:37 AM
So, so worth it, Darwin.
So worth it, in fact, that all who can do so pay for private insurance, thus paying twice for health care. As everyone in America who wants to continue to enjoy the standards of health care that they currently have will choose to do. This is how state-run health care will make it more expensive, Left-wingers.
Plus, the Labour government is now proposing forcing private sector health care providers to deal with all the people with whom the public sector cannot. So the cost of health care for Brits is about to be raised again.
Three cheers for socialism!
Track-A-'Crat on December 12, 2009 at 11:39 AM
And the decline is showing no sign of letting up, either. Twelve years of socialist rule has not been kind to the UK.
Track-A-'Crat on December 12, 2009 at 11:48 AM
Fixed that for ya.
Wind Rider on December 12, 2009 at 12:04 PM
This is why we need a 100 year plan.
scruplesrx on December 12, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Or a Seldon plan. Actually, a Mule would probably be better.
Wind Rider on December 12, 2009 at 12:06 PM
A VAT will never happen. The Dems would lose 80% of their seats if they instituted something like that.
In the end, they’re gonna jack up taxes on the “rich” and on businesses. They’ll do everything they can to avoid raising taxes on the middle class, but they’ll end up tanking the dollar and our economy in the process thanks to the complete lack of fiscal sanity.
Doughboy on December 12, 2009 at 12:09 PM
Taxing the rich and businesses even more is raising taxes on the middle class.
darwin on December 12, 2009 at 12:24 PM
I wonder if this moron from the “Reagan administration” would stop to consider the fact that government NEVER EVER APPLIES NEW REVENUES TO “PAYING OUR BILLS”, THEY SPEND EVEN MORE. WHEN IN THE HELL WILL THESE IDIOTS LEARN!!! STARVE THE BEAST AND GET RID OF THE SPENDERS! IT IS NOT A LACK OF TAXATION THAT IS THE PROBLEM, IT IS THE F*CKING WASTEFUL SPENDING!!!!!! MORE TAXATION WILL DESTROY EVEN MORE ECONOMIC ACTIVITY THAT CREATES JOBS AT THE WORST POSSIBLE TIME! WHEN WILL THESE ECONOMIC ILLITERATES GO AWAY?????
echosyst on December 12, 2009 at 12:28 PM
The “FAIR” tax idea scares me due to the enherent deception in Peloci’s democrat party. Here is how the deception will work:
Step 1. Pass the FAIR tax.
Step 2. Eliminate income tax.
Step 1 will pass, with the people eagerly awaiting step 2.
Ooops. time for a congressional recess. Gosh. Look at the time! It’s almost time for congress to break. Gee. There is sooo much else for us to do. Don’t you worry your pretty little heads about that step 2. We’ll get to it just as soon as we……
kurtzz3 on December 12, 2009 at 12:34 PM
Only one thing wrong with your post. If the Fair Tax were ever to get thru to the President’s desk and get signed, it would automatically eliminate the IRS and repeal the 16th Amendment.
So no Step 2. But, what I think you meant is that a VAT would also be in place and would not be eliminated thus producing ever more taxation that the Fair Tax would.
Personally, I like the Fair Tax idea. However, the climate in DC (and in many states) is no where near what it would take to get it passed. Sadly, I probably will never see The Fair Tax come before a president to sign. I will probably live long enough to see this gov’t destroy America.
And I will more likely see this happen….
Now that is really sad!!!!
JohnnyD on December 12, 2009 at 12:49 PM
Idiots!
The economy will never fully recover if a VAT is put into law. It will be like twisting the blade once the knife is fully in the back of the people.
JohnnyD on December 12, 2009 at 1:09 PM
Well, let’s not make it complicated and full of paperwork. Sheesh bunch of idiots.
boomer on December 12, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Does it not occur to the Times that they cheered on all that “front-loading”?! What did they think was going to happen when over half our families pay no income tax?
jeanneb on December 12, 2009 at 1:56 PM
In point of fact, a cocktail is a very effective cure for a hangover. Probably the most effective. It’s why Bloody Marys, etc were invented. A steady diet of cocktails, however, just creates more hangovers.
Urquhart on December 12, 2009 at 1:59 PM
I know. But politics is perception. And for the Dems, one of the most important things is to be able to say to the middle class that they never imposed a tax increase directly onto them.
Anyone with half a brain(which rules out DC and Obama supporters) knows a tax on the rich, small businesses, and corporations reaches the middle and lower income brackets eventually, but this is about the political, not economic, reality.
Doughboy on December 12, 2009 at 2:04 PM
The problem with the so called “fair” tax is that it will get some/many people coming (earning) and going (spending). If someone has already spent all the money they ever earned then they won’t double pay, but if someone has not already spent all the money they have ever earned (in other words they saved a lot to spend later) they will be double taxed by this so called “fair” tax.
MB4 on December 12, 2009 at 2:56 PM
When they start passing these monstrous taxes, we need to simply refuse to pay.
Use the left’s favorite protest, civil disobedience.
If 200 million people refuse to pay, they can’t imprison us all. And the system will collapse.
Atlas shrugs.
wildcat84 on December 12, 2009 at 3:13 PM
I believe Lou Dobbs was right the other day while speaking with Mike Gallagher – that at least once a day, he speaks to someone who brings up the word revolution.
Today, I’m that one person.
madmonkphotog on December 12, 2009 at 3:44 PM
If they lived down here on earth with the rest of us hoi polloi they’d know we are already sales taxed to the point of collapse.
Suggestion: all elected public officials go unpaid. Since lobbyists ply each of them with hundreds of thousands yearly, we might as well formalize their prostitution, and take them off the public payroll. They don’t work for us anymore anyway, why should we pay them?
MarkT on December 12, 2009 at 3:47 PM
How many pet projects were in that bill they passed the other day? 5000? Dems and Repubs had BS spending stuffed in it. How about just putting a freeze on anything except defense? That would be a start. All we hear from the morons in charge are we are going to have to raise taxes to pay all the bills. WTF? Well DS’s stop spending..
Do any of you really think they are worried about 2010? Sure go ahead and work to get them voted out. Who are you going to replace them with? Another spend crazy idiot that votes against the constituants? I mean really folks, they will not get the message until they are afraid of US, not the other way around. How bad does it have to get before a full fledged revolt? Time to put up or shut up, personally I am ready to put up.
TEXASLEGAL on December 12, 2009 at 4:37 PM
Exactly! That moron O’Reilly was pushing the idea of a national two cent sales tax that would be used only for deficit reduction. You can not give these idiots more money, it will only mean more spending! Until they start seriously talking about reducing spending and the waste and outright fraud and theft going on in DC, I say not one dime more!
PatMac on December 12, 2009 at 5:21 PM
#1, there is a technical error in this New York Times article (I know you’re all as shocked as I was that the NYT doesn’t always completely understand what it “reports” on and prints); Macy’s would not have to check what VAT the previous companies paid in the supply chain; it would simply get a credit for the VAT it paid the tailor it bought the dress from – in fact, it would accumulate all its VAT payments in an account, with supporting documentation, of course, and claim all of its VAT payments as a credit against the accumulated VAT it collects on its sales of various products and/or services, and remit the difference to Uncle Sugar; in the end, the VAT is paid by the ultimate consumer, not any of the businesses – AT LEAST IN THEORY. Notwithstanding that, as a tax manager for one of the 100 largest companies in the world by market capitalization, I can assure that VAT is not a piece of cake to manage, and companies have to be vigilent about their accounting and documentation to prevent leakage causing them to lose credits and increase their tax bill for a tax which is targeted on end consumers, not businesses.
#2. I lived in Germany in the late 1990s; VAT is going to be INCREMENTAL, not a substitute for the income tax; those suggesting the potential for otherwise, please be serious. The rate in Germany at the time was, I believe, 16.5%, and there was a relatively high individual income tax, and still is today, albeit with somewhat lower rates today – but still significant.
#3. There is, in my humble opinion, almost no way we will not eventually have a VAT in the US, notwithstanding my small government and low taxation STRONG desires. Even without Obamacare, (and this is what makes what is going on in Washington, D.C. today all the more incredulous), we are already in the Sh!++er when it comes to impending obligations, and that would be the case even if we were fortunate enough to replace Obama with the second coming of Reagan.
Merry Christmas! Keep the important things in perspective.
churchill995 on December 12, 2009 at 5:28 PM
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