Pro-life nurse forced to assist an abortion

posted at 1:30 pm on December 12, 2009 by Cassy Fiano

This is certainly not an unusual case, or else we wouldn’t have federal statutes to prevent it. In New York, a Catholic nurse was forced to participate in abortion, despite the fact that her supervisors knew of her moral objection to it. When she initially refused, they threatened her job.

The Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) has filed a lawsuit on behalf of a Catholic nurse who was forced to participate in an abortion, despite voicing her moral objections.

Catherina Cenzon-DeCarlo, a nurse at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York, was instructed to assist in a late second-trimester abortion for a woman 22 weeks into her pregnancy. The hospital had known of the nurse’s religious objections to abortion since she was hired in 2004.

Cenzon-DeCarlo reminded her supervisors of her religious objections, but was told that if she did not participate, she would be charged with “insubordination and patient abandonment,” which could result in disciplinary action and the possible loss of her job and nursing license

Hospital officials told Cenzon-DeCarlo that the situation was an “emergency,” although evidence suggests that this was not the case. The hospital itself labeled the case as a “Category II,” meaning that the operation needed to take place within six hours. This would have allowed enough time to find another nurse without moral objections to assisting in the abortion, her lawyers said.

Matt Bowman, legal counsel for the ADF, explained that the hospital could not legally have required the nurse to participate in the abortion even if the case had been a “Category I,” meaning that the patient required “immediate surgical intervention for life or limb threatening conditions.” Federal statutes prohibit recipients of federal health funds from requiring employees to perform abortions, Bowman told CNA.

However, the evidence in the case suggested that the patient was not even at the “Category II” level, as the hospital had claimed. When the woman was brought into the room, Cenzon-DeCarlo observed no indications that the case was a medical emergency. The woman’s blood pressure was not at a crisis level, and standard procedures for patients in crisis had not been taken. Yet the nurse was still required to aid in the abortion.

When CNA contacted Mount Sinai, officials refused to comment or explain why the nurse was asked to participate in the abortion. Officials stated that they would not comment because a lawsuit is pending.

Now, the ADF has filed a lawsuit against Mount Sinai for violating Cenzon-DeCarlo’s rights of conscience.

… Earlier this month, President Obama promised that a “robust conscience clause” would be forthcoming, but critics are skeptical after his earlier decision to repeal conscience provisions put in place by the Bush administration.

My first thought is how cruel this is — to force someone to participate in something that they have such a strong moral objection to. If her supervisors knew of her objections to performing abortions for five years now, and then forced her to assist one anyways, then that seems to me like a petty, cruel thing to do. As explained in the article, the hospital is claiming that the patient was a Category II case, meaning the operation needed to take place within six hours. That would have been more than enough time to find a nurse without moral objections to perform the abortion. Yet instead, they sought out the Catholic nurse who they knew had moral and religious objections to abortion, and forced her to do it. That is cruel, and unnecessarily so.

Unfortunately, this is all too common and in a variety of ways. It’s mostly thanks to feminists who howl in rage if anyone has a moral objection against anything they feel is a “reproductive right”. Doctors and nurses who don’t want to perform abortions, pharmacists who don’t want to dispense the morning after pill or contraception… they’re all told that they’re required to do these things and if they don’t like it, to get out of their field. Organizations like Pharmacists for Life International find themselves the target of feminist wrath. And whether it’s regarding pharmacists, doctors, or nurses, the end point is still the same each time: it’s about restricting choice. This is America, where free-market capitalism is supposed to reign. A business owner can operate his or her business how they want to. They can sell whatever goods or products they want to — and likewise, refuse to sell whatever goods or products they don’t want to sell. Customers, meanwhile, are free to shop wherever they choose. If they don’t like a pharmacy that refuses to sell contraception, or a doctor’s office that won’t perform abortions, they can go elsewhere. Some people though — ironically, most so-called pro-choicers — don’t want people to have that choice, though. Abortion is legal, so therefore, all doctors and nurses must be willing to perform it, no matter what their religious and moral principles tell them.

What’s worrying is how prevalent these cases may become if Obama’s government run healthcare reform passes. Obama is arguably the most extreme pro-abortion president we’ve ever had. This is the guy who voted three times against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, which would guarantee medical treatment for babies who survive abortions. He’s repealing conscience provisions put in place by President Bush. If his health care reform passes, complete with the inevitable more taxpayer funding for abortion, what kind of protection are pro-life doctors and nurses going to have? My guess would be very little. Hopefully Cenzon-DeCarlo wins her suit.

No one should have to be forced to do something that they feel goes against their religious and moral principles. But in Obama’s hopier, changier America, is that where we’re heading?

Hat Tip: Stop the ACLU

abortion

Cross-posted from Cassy’s blog. Stop by for more original commentary or follow her on Twitter!

This post was promoted from GreenRoom to HotAir.com.
To see the comments on the original post, look here.

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 4 5 6

Exactly. I still thank my own mother daily. BTW, she was bedridden for months apparently with my own birth.
She was a corker in life, and she let me know that she wasn’t all that keen on my birth.
God’s grace, in my opinion. God’s grace.

AnninCA on December 12, 2009 at 5:29 PM

There lies the answer to AnninCA, a sick twisted mother left a daughter who is detached from basic human compassion.

tessa on December 12, 2009 at 10:11 PM

Exactly. I still thank my own mother daily. BTW, she was bedridden for months apparently with my own birth.

She was a corker in life, and she let me know that she wasn’t all that keen on my birth.

God’s grace, in my opinion. God’s grace.

AnninCA on December 12, 2009 at 5:29 PM

At least you’re consistent. That’s good.

Hawkins1701 on December 12, 2009 at 10:20 PM

Liam, how can you defend a person who thinks killing a baby, an actual born baby, is her “choice”? She is a cold hearted witch! They put people in jail for less. What is wrong with you?

gina4 on December 12, 2009 at 9:40 PM

I don’t defend the person so much as her right to post as she does.

I also see more in Ann than many others do at this moment.

Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:31 PM

And if I get burned, so be it. I lose nothing.

But if I might change a point of view…

Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:34 PM

Maybe I’m wrong about Ann. But what if I’m right?

If it ever comes down to another Lexington or Bunker Hill, (Breed’s Hill), maybe someone like me is worth having on your side?

Just an idea.

Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:39 PM

Did you read the complaint?….She has been blacklisted as a result of her stand, by both the hospital and the union which supposedly represents her, and is in essence unemployed. She is suing, as is her right under the Church Amendment.

unclesmrgol

No, I didn’t read the complaint. I just read what was posted in the article.
If what you are saying is true, she lost her job anyway. If so, I’m sure she wishes even more now that she hadn’t participated in terminating a life.
You’re right, I am pretty secure in my job as a healthcare professional but anything could happen.
Sometimes we have to choose between 2 bad choices. The question is, with which choice can we be at peace?

redslippers on December 12, 2009 at 10:44 PM

Do you get your medical information off the back of cracker jack boxes? There has been at least one child born prior to 22 weeks gestation, and the current accepted “limit of viability” (i.e. greater than 50% chance of survival) is 24 weeks. By the time you reach 28 weeks survival rate is over 90%.

wdomburg on December 12, 2009 at 8:38 PM

This is the whole problem with the legal fiction known as “viability.” Whether or not a baby is “viable” changes as medicine advances. There was a time when a 28-week old baby would have had the same chances that a 22-week old has today. How the abortion militants square that circle I surely do not know.

I have to say, I am gobsmacked reading this story, for two reasons. The first is obvious: Forcing someone to take part in a procedure they deem morally objectionable. Had that been me, I would have walked out of there and straight to the lawyer’s office, but I realize some people are not in a position to do that. It is spectacular irony that feminists become positively apoplectic in defending their right to “choice,” but this poor nurse doesn’t have the right to make her own choices? Amazing.

The other thing I can’t get over is that a woman can apparently get an abortion on demand at 22 weeks! I’m sorry, but that’s a baby. I didn’t even think abortion was legal after the first trimester except in cases where the mother’s life was in danger. I guess I don’t get the whole “It’s just a lump of cells” argument. So when does it become an actual baby? When it’s born? As soon as you decide you want it and it’s not just a problem to be rid of? As someone says above, the moral relativism that informs the thinking of pro-abortion activists is striking. If a woman is pregnant by choice and intends to carry to term and loses that baby via miscarriage at, say, 22 weeks, it’s considered a terrible tragedy. She’s lost a baby. I had a friend who experienced this. She and her husband grieved that baby. He had a name, they had a memorial service for him. It was as real to them as if he’s died after he was born. But if a woman decides she doesn’t want the baby, and she aborts it at 22 weeks, it’s not a “tragedy” because it wasn’t a real life anyway; it was just a bunch of cells. How do people reconcile this?

NoLeftTurn on December 12, 2009 at 10:45 PM

It’s bad enough we even allow mothers to kill their own children. Now Obambi wants us to either participate in it or pay for it.

Sick.

Mojave Mark on December 12, 2009 at 10:51 PM

Mojave Mark on December 12, 2009 at 10:51 PM

Yeah. But we still can’t shoot libs on the (left) wing.

Liam on December 12, 2009 at 10:52 PM

Judging by the amount of sewage-spewing, hypocrisy and adult temper tantrums, it was almost as much of a mistake to impose one side’s view of reproductive kill/no-kill values on the other at a national level than it was to drag half the nation kicking and screaming out of the Jim Crow era.

Get this issue back to the states already and let proponents of BOTH sides vote with their feet. That way, people who don’t want to assist in abortions could either zip it or leave, and a minority percentage of people who wanted abortions wouldn’t be able to spit in the face of everyone else by legal strongarming.

Dark-Star on December 12, 2009 at 10:58 PM

Those of you claiming that the hospital could have found a substitute OR nurse on Memorial Day Weekend are nuts.

Blake on December 12, 2009 at 11:04 PM

Blake on December 12, 2009 at 11:04 PM

I’m saying Mt. Sinai probably has a large enough staff where a qualified RN could have switched assignments.

Additionally, the complaint alleges one option would have been for the supervisor requiring her to do this to take over. Dunno how feasible that was, not knowing what else was on her plate at the time.

cs89 on December 12, 2009 at 11:30 PM

I think that is up to the individual and their own beliefs.

In cases like this story?’

The worker should change jobs.

I think this is an abuse of our legal system.

AnninCA on December 12, 2009 at 5:50 PM

I have been reading your hysterical blather. From what I can see you are not even addressing the actual issue of the nurse who had an agreement when she was employed that she would not have to assist in such a circumstance.

People, the question here is a matter of the employment contract. When the woman was employed in 2004 she made it clear about her objections. For 5 years she did not have to face this situation. Neither did the other nursing staff. To force her to participate in an abortion procedure was a breach of contract. On top of that there is the issue of bullying. The nurse in charge was being a bully with the threats. This woman might have felt, especially when she was being threatened with a charge of patient abandonment, that it was better to go ahead and assist rather than totally ruin her career. It was a very tough choice, and she might have felt that she had no choice in her personal circumstances.

Now, for those that think she should have walked, perhaps you need to reconsider on that grounds that the woman is raising her children on her own. Also, she was called to assist in an operation that she thought was an ordinary D&C. Hey, a rape victim can get a D&C without drama. Other women have D&C not associated with abortion.

And Ann this is not about you, and your personal choices. It is not even about the patient in the case. We do not even know if the procedure was justified or why it was considered to be justified.

maggieo on December 13, 2009 at 2:31 AM

I want to address some of the issues brought up by Marcus regarding when a termination is justified. Personally, I believe that there are very few such instances, and that in the rest of the cases, the justification is very shallow. This also includes where a mother through the amniocentisis (which I am against) finds out that her baby has Downs. The mother’s life is not in danger in that situation so the termination is not justified.

However, there are other situations e.g. ectopic pregnancy. I would be surprised that a mother gets to 22 weeks with an ectopic pregnancy. This is one of the few situations where termination is wholly justified, and that includes the position of the Catholic Church on this particular instance. In other instances e.g. cancer, it is up to the mother if she decides to go full term with her child or terminate in order to commence treatment. I do know of an Australian case where the woman decided on termination of her baby due to breast cancer, and she lost her life anyway. It was not a very good choice.

The one that is open to question is pre-eclampsia. Please indulge me here because my first pregnancy was kinda at risk for eclampsia due to high blood pressure. I do not normally have high blood pressure and since then I have not suffered high blood pressure. However, I was monitored during that last stage of my pregnancy and I was told to rest. I had to do the regular 24 hour specimen checks. Now the thing is I went to full term with that baby. In my case I was lucky I guess because nothing went wrong. What I am not sure about though is whether it would be common at 22 weeks for a woman to be pre-eclampsia to the point that a termination is justified. Yes, there are risks, but why could it not be managed?

Since we do not know all the details of why this woman had to have a termination at 22 weeks, this leaves open the question of whether or not it really was a medical emergency, and that is the point that the nurse was making as far as her participation is concerned. If this was a patient presenting with an ectopic pregnancy, then that would be an emergency. If the woman had gone into eclampsia, that would be an emergency… but how many other situations would be a real emergency?

maggieo on December 13, 2009 at 2:46 AM

atheling

On the subject of whether a Christian should pay taxes that support abortions, I bring to your attention Mark 12:14-17

“Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar; or shall we not give it? Who knowing their wiliness, saith to them: Why tempt you me? bring me a penny that I may see it.

“And they brought it him. And he saith to them: Whose is this image and inscription? They say to him, Caesar’s. And Jesus answering, said to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.”

Thus Jesus was saying that people should pay tribute/taxes even though the tribute/taxes would be going to do evil thing like oppression, abortion, gladiator games, worship of pagan gods

Another way of viewing this issue.

I go to 7/11 to buy a hot dog and a soda. I notice that they sell pornography. Buying the hot dog and soda supports 7/11, but as long as I don’t have the intention of buying the pornography, I have not cooperated with evil.

Now certainly I should go to a store that doesn’t sell pornography and I should try to convince 7/11 not to sell pornography, but buying a hot dog and soda is remote enough that I’m not cooperating with evil.

panzerkardinal on December 13, 2009 at 3:26 AM

There lies the answer to AnninCA, a sick twisted mother left a daughter who is detached from basic human compassion.

tessa on December 12, 2009 at 10:11 PM

That’s mighty Christian of you. You speak of compassion but with a forked tongue.

The Race Card on December 13, 2009 at 5:44 AM

Those of you claiming that the hospital could have found a substitute OR nurse on Memorial Day Weekend are nuts.

Blake on December 12, 2009 at 11:04 PM

Do you work in healthcare? I do, and hospital staffing remains the same on a holiday weekend. No kidding!

ladyingray on December 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM

These abortions at 22 or so weeks are usually because the baby was found to have a defect of some kind. Most sonograms for anatomy are done at 20 weeks and by the time the mother is referred to a specialist and given her options, she’s around 21-22 weeks. It depends what state you’re in as to when you can get an abortion, how far along I mean. And when it’s for that reason, a physical anomaly or Downs or something, they use the Nazi method, as I described in a previous post.

So, if you think it’s your “choice”, and you choose to kill, just be ready when down the road this sick feeling rises in your gut that you mutilated your own baby. Live with that choice.

gina4 on December 13, 2009 at 6:17 AM

Also, some Doctor’s lie and state the baby has died in utero so the woman can be induced and skip the Nazi method. The Doctor is trying to save the woman that pleasant little journey. So, it sounds to me that something like that was going on in this story. Maybe, just a thought.

gina4 on December 13, 2009 at 6:22 AM

I go to 7/11 to buy a hot dog and a soda. I notice that they sell pornography. Buying the hot dog and soda supports 7/11, but as long as I don’t have the intention of buying the pornography, I have not cooperated with evil.

You think so? Then by that reasoning voting for a Democrat, even if they don’t personally support abortion, is OK? Aren’t you, in effect, voting for the Democratic Party as a whole, and then aren’t you indirectly helping their platform, including abortion? Which makes it not so indirect.

I think you are cooperating with evil. In fact, evil is thrilled with your reasoning!

gina4 on December 13, 2009 at 6:38 AM

I’m saying Mt. Sinai probably has a large enough staff where a qualified RN could have switched assignments.

They need an OR nurse – not just any RN. They are short staffed because it is a weekend. They are even more short staffed because it is a 3 day holiday weekend. The chances of finding an OR registry nurse are zero to none.

Additionally, the complaint alleges one option would have been for the supervisor requiring her to do this to take over. Dunno how feasible that was, not knowing what else was on her plate at the time.

cs89 on December 12, 2009 at 11:30 PM

It’s ridiculous to expect the supervisor to fill in. She has her own duties. Who’s going to cover for her?

The plaintiff’s suggested accommodations were not reasonable. She’s suing because she can’t get scheduled for on call where she makes a good chunk of money. But if she is going to refuse to do abortions that the hospital has declared an emergency, they will not give her on call. This is not unreasonable for the hospital. Their on call staff must be able to handle all emergencies.

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 7:26 AM

Do you work in healthcare? I do, and hospital staffing remains the same on a holiday weekend. No kidding!

ladyingray on December 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM

I have worked in healthcare. I have worked in healthcare in NYC. Staffing is not the same on weekends let alone holiday weekends. You’re a liar. No kidding!

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 7:30 AM

I think you are cooperating with evil. In fact, evil is thrilled with your reasoning!

gina4 on December 13, 2009 at 6:38 AM

So, the nurse/plaintiff in this case was not only cooperating with evil she was working for evil in that she worked at a hospital that performed abortions? In fact anyone who is treated at a hospital that performs abortions is working for evil? And this includes abortions that have been deemed emergencies by the hospital and the treating physician? So, to be sure you’re not working for evil, better never go to a hospital that has an OB/Gyn department.
Good luck with that. LOL

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 7:40 AM

I work in healthcare, and have for 30 yrs. Staffing is not the same, especially w/ the addition of call-ins. The nsg. supervisor is not allowed the work as a floor nurse–she has to be available to all floors. This was in direct violation of her workman’s rights, and she should not have een threatened.
I will not condemn this woman. I believe that she should have stood by her beliefs, but I was not standing in her shoes, fearing for my job at Christmas-time.
As was said earlier, even Peter, Christ’s most beloved disciple denied Him 3 times.
You may condemn the act–but are you ready to throw the first stone at this woman? I think she is within her rights to sue the hospital, and I hope she sets a precedent!

lovingmyUSA on December 13, 2009 at 7:56 AM

So, to be sure you’re not working for evil, better never go to a hospital that has an OB/Gyn department.

Just go to a Catholic hospital, smart ass. And if it’s an emergency, go to the nearest hospital. There is no such thing as “emergency abortions”. You sure you’re in healthcare? The cafeteria maybe?

There are righteous places on earth, seek and ye shall find, oh wisecracker.

gina4 on December 13, 2009 at 8:40 AM

I have worked in healthcare. I have worked in healthcare in NYC. Staffing is not the same on weekends let alone holiday weekends. You’re a liar. No kidding!

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 7:30 AM

I am not a liar. Are you really going to say that this hospital had only one nurse on staff that day? I mean, really?

ladyingray on December 13, 2009 at 10:11 AM

“And they brought it him. And he saith to them: Whose is this image and inscription? They say to him, Caesar’s. And Jesus answering, said to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.”

panzerkardinal on December 13, 2009 at 3:26 AM

Remembering that “In G_d We Trust” is on all American money

canditaylor68 on December 13, 2009 at 10:16 AM

No, I didn’t read the complaint. I just read what was posted in the article.
If what you are saying is true, she lost her job anyway. If so, I’m sure she wishes even more now that she hadn’t participated in terminating a life.

redslippers on December 12, 2009 at 10:44 PM

The reason she filed the suit is not only because of the abortion, but because after she complained, they tried to open up the types of abortions in which she would be obligated to assist by forcing her to sign a document allowing them to do so. By that time, she’d “lawyered up” and had correct counsel to allow her to refuse.

That our Government is not stepping up to relieve her of the burden of guaranteeing her Constitutional rights is telling.

When Obama knocked down Bush’s executive guarantee of these rights, there was indeed an agenda. We are seeing the result. I’m hoping she owns the hospital after this is over.

unclesmrgol on December 13, 2009 at 10:47 AM

Now certainly I should go to a store that doesn’t sell pornography and I should try to convince 7/11 not to sell pornography, but buying a hot dog and soda is remote enough that I’m not cooperating with evil.

panzerkardinal on December 13, 2009 at 3:26 AM

If buying the hot dog and soda at a store who sells pornography is remote enough that you are not cooperating with evil, then why should you (as you opine) bother going to a store that doesn’t sell pornography?

Your seamless garb seems to have a few rents.

unclesmrgol on December 13, 2009 at 10:52 AM

I have a friend who’s an RN and she dropped out of nurse anthesthetist training because at her big HMO they get stuck with all the abortions. The docs don’t want to do them, so the low guy on the totem pole gets them. She just couldn’t do that as a career.

PattyJ on December 13, 2009 at 11:33 AM

Just go to a Catholic hospital, smart ass. And if it’s an emergency, go to the nearest hospital. There is no such thing as “emergency abortions”.

Pardon me for using a phrase that I thought a simple minded person, i.e., you, could understand.

By your logic any one who goes to any hospital that performs abortions, including emergency dilation and evacuation, because even though a doctor may have designated it an emergency any RN or tool like you can come along and claim that it is not, is working for evil. Since dilation and evacuation is a legitimate life saving procedure, even a Catholic hospital would be held liable if one was necessary and refused. Also, according to your logic, even if you go to a hospital for a fractured arm, if they perform abortions, you are working for evil.

You sure you’re in healthcare? The cafeteria maybe?

I’m sure I’m not in healthcare. Apparently, reading skills are not required in your job, assuming you have one.
You sure you can read? Or is this another case of you seeing only what you want to see?

There are righteous places on earth, seek and ye shall find, oh wisecracker.

gina4 on December 13, 2009 at 8:40 AM

Unfortunately, there is no place on earth for dumbasses like you.

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 12:15 PM

I am not a liar. Are you really going to say that this hospital had only one nurse on staff that day? I mean, really?

ladyingray on December 13, 2009 at 10:11 AM

Yeah, you are. And it’s not the first time, either. Are you really saying that this hospital is staffed by all OR nurses? Another clue that you don’t know what you are talking about.

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 12:21 PM

That’s mighty Christian of you. You speak of compassion but with a forked tongue.

The Race Card on December 13, 2009 at 5:44 AM

In case you haven’t read…compassion to those who seek it, compassion for those that are the “least” among us…Jesus never had compassion for “evil”, and killing a baby is evil.
Amazes me how people think Christians shouldn’t fight against evil…where have they learned such junk?

right2bright on December 13, 2009 at 12:40 PM

They are short staffed because it is a weekend. They are even more short staffed because it is a 3 day holiday weekend. The chances of finding an OR registry nurse are zero to none.

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 7:26 AM

Attending Physicians…2,181
Residents & Fellows…689
Nurses (RNs)…1,800
Newborn Deliveries (Live Births)…5,574
Emergency Room Visits…79,493

One of the largest and busiest hospitals in America…I think they have the resources to find a nurse or two on a weekend or holiday….especially within 6 hours…(and seeing as they have as many as hundreds of nurses on duty at any one time, a switch of patients would be simple)…

Aren’t you ever embarrassed by your posts?

right2bright on December 13, 2009 at 12:52 PM

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 7:26 AM

Aren’t you ever embarrassed by your posts?

right2bright on December 13, 2009 at 12:52 PM

Embarrassment requires self-perception.

Perceptron on December 13, 2009 at 1:55 PM

Embarrassment requires self-perception.

Perceptron on December 13, 2009 at 1:55 PM

Exactly, and introspect…but we both know that was an academic question.
1,800 nurses, and they can’t find one to work on a three day holiday…
The sad part of the story, is that this is a faith based hospital, you would think they would be a little more sensitive to this, then say a general state run hospital.

right2bright on December 13, 2009 at 2:10 PM

Since dilation and evacuation is a legitimate life saving procedure, even a Catholic hospital would be held liable if one was necessary and refused.

Please identify any situation in which a D&E must be done within 24 hours.

They are short staffed because it is a weekend. They are even more short staffed because it is a 3 day holiday weekend. The chances of finding an OR registry nurse are zero to none.

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 7:26 AM
Attending Physicians…2,181
Residents & Fellows…689
Nurses (RNs)…1,800
Newborn Deliveries (Live Births)…5,574
Emergency Room Visits…79,493

One of the largest and busiest hospitals in America…I think they have the resources to find a nurse or two on a weekend or holiday….especially within 6 hours…(and seeing as they have as many as hundreds of nurses on duty at any one time, a switch of patients would be simple)…

Aren’t you ever embarrassed by your posts?

right2bright on December 13, 2009 at 12:52 PM

The basis of Blake’s argument is that hospital overtime and holiday procedures are of greater importance than a medical emergency. This situation was so urgent that the RN had to take part, like it or not…but not so vital that anybody got called in on their day off. Let’s hope Al Qaeda doesn’t blow up anything on July Fourth!

Chris_Balsz on December 13, 2009 at 3:49 PM

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 7:26 AM

So, it’s “ridiculous” to expect the supervisor to fill in, but perfectly acceptable to force this RN to perform a procedure she made clear violated her ethical principles upon being hired?

Hard to square that circle, buddy.

cs89 on December 13, 2009 at 4:57 PM

right2bright on December 13, 2009 at 12:40 PM

Either read the thread or back off. My sarcastic remarks were directed at this comment:

There lies the answer to AnninCA, a sick twisted mother left a daughter who is detached from basic human compassion. tessa on December 12, 2009 at 10:11 PM

Tessa calls Anninca’s mother “sick” and “twisted” after Ann shared her mother’s expressed struggles while pregnant with AnninCA. There is nothing compassionate about that. In fact, that’s downright ugly, spiteful behavior. Hence my snark about her sense of Christian compassion.

Listen up. I don’t expect compassion for serial-aborters or for abortion advocates. I don’t even expect civility. However, I would appreciate that you at least be able to follow a bouncing ball if you seek discourse with me.

The Race Card on December 13, 2009 at 5:26 PM

I would appreciate that you at least be able to follow a bouncing ball if you seek discourse with me.

The Race Card on December 13, 2009 at 5:26 PM

I guess you had a difficult time reading my post…it was straight forward…evil does not receive compassion.
Annin is one who is pro abortion, yet you want her to receive “compassion”…something she didn’t ask for, and I believe is uncalled for…you think she should receive “compassion”.
Either read my thread or back off…as you stated.
People who have no problem with abortion do not receive compassion…aren’t the babies in the womb “the least among us”?

What you miss is the irony of Annin lamenting her mothers indecisiveness to giving birth to Annin, and Annin having no problem with abortion.
You don’t see a disconnect there? Really, you don’t?

right2bright on December 13, 2009 at 5:50 PM

New York already has a law that would have protected her. Looks like she didn’t take advantage of something that’s been around for twenty years.

____________________________

s.79-i (Consol.1989) Discrimination against person who refuses to perform certain act prohibited.
1. When the performing of an abortion on a human being or assisting thereat is contrary to the conscience or religious beliefs of any person, he may refuse to perform or assist in such abortion by filing a prior written refusal setting forth the reasons therefor with the appropriate and responsible hospital, person, firm, corporation or association, and no such hospital, person, firm, corporation or association shall discriminate against the person so refusing to act. A violation of the provisions of this section shall constitute a misdemeanor.

2. No civil action for negligence or malpractice shall be maintained against a person so refusing to act based on such refusal.
——————————————————————————–

Jimbo3 on December 13, 2009 at 6:14 PM

From Wikipedia: United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.

Do you play fast and loose with the truth to the people that you sidewalk counsel the same way you twisted my words?
And none of those Bible passages deals with abortion.

Jimbo3 on December 11, 2009 at 11:58 AM

Just wanted to get this on the record even if you never read it.

You have proven my point once again that you are completely ignorant on the subject of abortion. You say that the sources you use to “prove your facts” is wikipedia. Wikipedia, in case you havn’t heard, is an internet free-for-all where ANYONE can post anything and that’s that. I wouldn’t let a first grader use wikipedia as a source for cathing cottontail rabbits.

Let’s just take your number of 1.4% of abortions being perpetrated after 21 weeks. That’s only 16,926 for the entire country. Priests for Life says that the abortion industry’s own statistic says it’s 19,650, almost 3,000 more lives snuffed out. If almost 20,000 one-day old infants were murdered every year in this country, what would you say about that?

Also, the abortionists are liars before they even get around to the murdering part. They have censored the truth about their savagery since 1973 and certainly will not tell the truth about abortions after 20-21 weeks because that is when people are more informed about the baby’s full development and they would be horrified to know how common it is.

And, as I said, the abortion mill that I sidewalk counsel at does about 5,000 second trimester abortions per year. About 1/3 of those are after 20-21 weeks. That is 1,500 post 20-21 week abortions in ONE LOCATION only in the USA.

Now, there are about 1500 abortion locations in the USA.
According to the abortion promoting Guttmacher Institute, about 20% do second trimester abortions. That is 300 abortion mills. If we give them a very low estimate average of only 500 abortions after 20-21 weeks, that would come out 150,000 per year. And that is being conservative.

So, Jimbo, I think you are projecting a little when you accuse me of twisting words. Your statitistics, as well as your morals are twisted when it comes to defending helpless fetuses (remember, I told you that word is Latin, for “Little ones”). As far as twisting words when I sidewalk counsel, well, I can give you the testimony of many happy mothers and fathers as they hold their children in their arms and speak about the lies they were told by the abortionists and how grateful they are that they spoke to me on the fateful day that their baby hung in the balance between life and death.

tigerlily on December 12, 2009 at 3:38 PM

Tessa calls Anninca’s mother “sick” and “twisted” after Ann shared her mother’s expressed struggles while pregnant with AnninCA. There is nothing compassionate about that. In fact, that’s downright ugly, spiteful behavior. Hence my snark about her sense of Christian compassion.

Listen up. I don’t expect compassion for serial-aborters or for abortion advocates. I don’t even expect civility. However, I would appreciate that you at least be able to follow a bouncing ball if you seek discourse with me.

The Race Card on December 13, 2009 at 5:26 PM

–Some of the strict pro-lifers, like Tigerlily, have no problem in rejecting fairly impartial and relatively good verifiable evidence on the other side of the issue. They also have no problem with personal insults and other statements, apparently believing the ends justify the means.

Tigerlily is Satan on earth in my humble opinion. I wonder what sorts of lies she knowlingly tells when she is sidewalk counselling.

Jimbo3 on December 13, 2009 at 6:29 PM

Annin is one who is pro abortion, yet you want her to receive “compassion”…something she didn’t ask for, and I believe is uncalled for…you think she should receive “compassion”.
Either read my thread or back off…as you stated.
People who have no problem with abortion do not receive compassion…aren’t the babies in the womb “the least among us”?

You’re a judgmental putz. To withhold compassion en toto because of what you determine to be one sinful facet of a person’s life is not very Christian. It’s petty and usually speaks to personal struggles that often mirror the sin of those judged by people like you.

What part of your life is most shameful? What recurring sin has been challenging for you to purge from your life? Should the rest of the world withhold compassion for you because of your sins?

Or are you casting that first stone?

The Race Card on December 13, 2009 at 6:48 PM

What you miss is the irony of Annin lamenting her mothers indecisiveness to giving birth to Annin, and Annin having no problem with abortion.
You don’t see a disconnect there? Really, you don’t?

Anninca reflected about her mom’s struggles openly. Many women have misgivings about getting pregnant when they did — hence that steely resolve Republicans are so found of in conservative women. Anninca’s mom sounds like she did exactly what pro-lifers would hope — she kept her kid.

The disconnect is betewen biblical teachings on compassion and your behavior.

The Race Card on December 13, 2009 at 6:54 PM

be one sinful facet of a person’s life is not very Christian.
Or are you casting that first stone?

The Race Card on December 13, 2009 at 6:48 PM

Obviously you flunked theology…and so did Jesus by your interpretation.
I would say calling on killing a baby is in the ballpark of being sinful…even if it is only one single facet (that we know of).
….gee that guy is really a nice person, he just killed a couple of people, but that’s just one facet of his life…

And I don’t think I am “casting the first stone” (seeing as she is the one who has admitted being pro-abortion)…once again you failed theology…I guess you don’t believe in judging people.

…yeah, I know you do drugs, and you are carrying a bottle of gin, and the rumor in the neighborhood is that you have molested children, but I don’t want to cast the first stone so come on in and babysit my 6 year old…

I think you should get it now…but I doubt it.

You obviously have a reading disorder…let me quote me again.

mothers indecisiveness to giving birth to Annin, and Annin having no problem with abortion.
You don’t see a disconnect there? Really, you don’t?

See where she is upset that her mother thought of aborting her…yet she cannot understand how others don’t want abortion to take place, she thinks it is okay to abort others, but not her.
Now do you see the…never mind, you won’t admit it even if you do understand.
Goodnight, glad your mother didn’t abort you, and Annin…I just want Annin to realize the same for others.

right2bright on December 13, 2009 at 7:15 PM

Yeah, you are. And it’s not the first time, either. Are you really saying that this hospital is staffed by all OR nurses? Another clue that you don’t know what you are talking about.

Blake on December 13, 2009 at 12:21 PM

I can guarantee you that the hospitals owned by the company I work for have more than one OR nurse on duty on a holiday.

Give examaples of my “other” lies or STFU.

ladyingray on December 13, 2009 at 7:47 PM

you won’t admit it even if you do understand

If an argument persuades me or I have been bested in debate I am glad to acknowledge that. In alleging otherwise, you essentially call me a liar or disingenuous at best. I have no reason to lie to you. What would I gain? If you’re going to accuse me you could at least provide a scintilla of substantiation.

I know that a lot of you get overly-excised and all emotionally invested in these blog-tete-a-tetes. I enjoy the back and forth, myself. But, try to leave ego out of it.

The Race Card on December 13, 2009 at 8:18 PM

s.79-i (Consol.1989) Discrimination against person who refuses to perform certain act prohibited.
1. When the performing of an abortion on a human being or assisting thereat is contrary to the conscience or religious beliefs of any person, he may refuse to perform or assist in such abortion by filing a prior written refusal setting forth the reasons therefor with the appropriate and responsible hospital, person, firm, corporation or association, and no such hospital, person, firm, corporation or association shall discriminate against the person so refusing to act. A violation of the provisions of this section shall constitute a misdemeanor.

2. No civil action for negligence or malpractice shall be maintained against a person so refusing to act based on such refusal.
——————————————————————————–

Jimbo3 on December 13, 2009 at 6:14 PM

Interesting. However

1. We don’t know whether she filed such a thing.
2. It seems quite a technicality, on a par with allowing me to decline organ donation or conscientious objection to combat duty–IF I filed the appropriate form with the appropriate bureaucrat in advance. If not, sucks to be me.
3. It doesn’t say they can’t order somebody who so filed to do an abortion; it just gives that somebody the ability to sue after their boss punishes them for the refusal.

Chris_Balsz on December 13, 2009 at 10:10 PM

Interesting. However

1. We don’t know whether she filed such a thing.

She did, in 2004. It’s in her complaint.

2. It seems quite a technicality, on a par with allowing me to decline organ donation or conscientious objection to combat duty–IF I filed the appropriate form with the appropriate bureaucrat in advance. If not, sucks to be me.

Seems fair, however. The employer and the employee have, as part of the stipulations in the employment contract, knowledge of the employee’s position with respect to participating in abortions.

3. It doesn’t say they can’t order somebody who so filed to do an abortion; it just gives that somebody the ability to sue after their boss punishes them for the refusal.

Agreed. That’s exactly what happened here; she reluctantly participated in one, and they then attempted to coerce her into signing a form which negated the previous form she signed (which indicated that she would participate in D&C only for a stilborn (dead in the womb) child). She refused and endured retaliation by both her employer and her union.

Chris_Balsz on December 13, 2009 at 10:10 PM

unclesmrgol on December 13, 2009 at 11:58 PM

No, because people like me will start killing people like them well before we let it get that far.

The Ronin Edge on December 13, 2009 at 8:51 PM

People like whom? Indirectly you’re threatening the President. You are the worst of the worst on the right or left. You are an un-American coward.

And you’re so full of sh1t that you’re septic. Let us momentarily suppose that you’re not a murderous wingnut. In that case, you are an idiot waiting to be caught.

The Race Card on December 14, 2009 at 1:32 AM

If her supervisors knew of her objections to performing abortions for five years now, and then forced her to assist one anyways, then that seems to me like a petty, cruel thing to do.

I think it was by design. Pro-lifers need to be punished for standing up for unborn life. How better to do that than allowing a martinet within the organization force the pro-lifer into abetting the killing of a child?

highhopes on December 14, 2009 at 7:15 AM

First they force us to participate in aborting children. Next, they will force our Churches to conduct gay “marriage” ceremonies. The final step will be when they try at gunpoint to force us to renounce Christ.

olesparkie on December 14, 2009 at 7:43 AM

I’m just now commenting on this thread. I saw it two days ago. It’s taken this long to type coherently and legibly.
 
First, you vote with your feet. If eliminating bad actors is a problem for you, don’t put on a uniform. If you actually have a moral objection [i.e. no faking] to an act, DON’T DO IT. “Blessed are you who are persecuted in My Name.”
 
Second, You bet the nurse should sue and win (maybe settle) for at least five years at full pay.
 
Last

It’s bad enough we even allow mothers to kill their own children. Now Obambi wants us to either participate in it or pay for it.

Sick.

Mojave Mark on December 12, 2009 at 10:51 PM

I’m thinking Barry likes it both ways.

Blacksmith8 on December 14, 2009 at 9:14 AM

Interesting. However

1. We don’t know whether she filed such a thing.
She did, in 2004. It’s in her complaint.

2. It seems quite a technicality, on a par with allowing me to decline organ donation or conscientious objection to combat duty–IF I filed the appropriate form with the appropriate bureaucrat in advance. If not, sucks to be me.
Seems fair, however. The employer and the employee have, as part of the stipulations in the employment contract, knowledge of the employee’s position with respect to participating in abortions.

3. It doesn’t say they can’t order somebody who so filed to do an abortion; it just gives that somebody the ability to sue after their boss punishes them for the refusal.
Agreed. That’s exactly what happened here; she reluctantly participated in one, and they then attempted to coerce her into signing a form which negated the previous form she signed (which indicated that she would participate in D&C only for a stilborn (dead in the womb) child). She refused and endured retaliation by both her employer and her union.

Chris_Balsz on December 13, 2009 at 10:10 PM
unclesmrgol on December 13, 2009 at 11:58 PM

–So then why isn’t she asking the State of New York to charge the hospital with a misdemeanor?

Jimbo3 on December 14, 2009 at 10:49 AM

The Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) has filed a lawsuit on behalf of a Catholic nurse who was forced to participate in an abortion, despite voicing her moral objections.

1. We don’t know whether she filed such a thing.
She did, in 2004. It’s in her complaint.

Uncle and Chris, I can’t find her actual complaint, but if she only voiced her complaint (rather than putting it in writing), technically she wouldn’t be covered by the NY law.

Jimbo3 on December 14, 2009 at 10:53 AM

This story brought tears to my eyes. You are right to point out how cruel this is. I firmly believe that abortion advocates just don’t realize that abortion opponents are not in the fight to control other people but only because we believe abortion to be murder. This nurse will probably have to undergo severe counseling sessions as in her mind (and mine) by forcing this nurse to participate in this abortion she has become an accomplice to murder.

therambler on December 14, 2009 at 11:52 AM

In my profession I am asked to do things all the time that are wrong.
As a teacher I am always being ‘coerced’ into giving someone a grade they don’t deserve, or changing their grade bcs of who they are or who their parents are, etc.
I have never done so, but a public school administrator can write up a less than flattering evaluation on that teacher who refuses to play politics & it goes into their public file & the only recourse that teacher has is to write up a response, but in the end, it is the admin who makes the reccommendation to the school board who stays & who goes.
So it is dependent upon the integrity of those voted officials to actually involve themselves in what’s going on, which oftentimes they do not.
I’d honestly rather lose my job & my license than to play politics.
And in teaching, that may very happen to me bcs I don’t like to play the game.
So that is why I have a science degree bcs if it ever comes down to it, I know I can get a job doing something else.
Tough luck for this nurse.
It’s crap they threatened her.
But if she truly believed in the sanctity of life, pray tell why did she cave & help with the abortion?
I’d rather lose my nursing license than my get into heaven card.

Badger40 on December 14, 2009 at 2:11 PM

When the government funds abortions (to a more overt degree than they currently do), are you going to take a stand by refusing to pay the taxes that will fund them?

justltl on December 12, 2009 at 2:06 PM

2 word to deal with that:
Underground economy

Badger40 on December 14, 2009 at 2:15 PM

As a teacher I am always being ‘coerced’ into giving someone a grade they don’t deserve, or changing their grade bcs of who they are or who their parents are, etc.

It would seem that someone as resourceful as yourself would have more recourse than a follow-up statement and random blog comment if they were “always being coerced into” doing stuff they didn’t want to.”

Do you teach at a private school? If you teach at a public school, why wouldn’t your union protect you?

“Always” is a strong word as used in your sentence. I am not doubting you. I would actually appreciate it if you could detail some of of those situations.

The Race Card on December 14, 2009 at 4:15 PM

If you teach at a public school, why wouldn’t your union protect you?

“Always” is a strong word as used in your sentence. I am not doubting you. I would actually appreciate it if you could detail some of of those situations.

The Race Card on December 14, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Obviously you have to have proof of an admin asking you to do this. Even the union can’t protect you much from he said/she said.
And as I said, it’s done through ‘coercion’ (sp?) i.e. intimidation, etc.
OK-then 100% (always) it doesn’t happen-let’s say, when these situations actually arise, it’s about 85% of the time I’m being asked to do things that aren’t right.
Example: Little Billy’s a star basketball player & has been failing so much so that he’s not eligible to play.
So principle & suptd. get on my case about my class being ‘too hard’.
Don’t tell me it’s coincidental when the state b-ball tournament is coming up.
Happens a lot.

Badger40 on December 14, 2009 at 5:17 PM

Fascism. And it’s only begun.

petunia on December 14, 2009 at 7:28 PM

–So then why isn’t she asking the State of New York to charge the hospital with a misdemeanor?

Jimbo3 on December 14, 2009 at 10:49 AM

Pigs will fly before New York does anything against abortionists. She’s using the one arena she can influence, and good upon her.

unclesmrgol on December 14, 2009 at 8:19 PM

If you want to see them squirm, ask a pro-abortion politician if they would be in favor of abortion, if THEIR own mother would have aborted them!

p51d007 on December 14, 2009 at 8:52 PM

Badger40 on December 14, 2009 at 5:17 PM

Thank you.

The Race Card on December 15, 2009 at 12:36 AM

I volunteer in the ER of a city hospital that is prohibited by law from aborting babies; however, one day, I was asked to take to the lab a specimen that must have come from a mother who’d had a botched abortion somewhere else. The vial, which contained little pink bits swirling in bloody fluid, was labeled “product of conception.” What a cold, heartless phrase! Seeing that helped steer me toward working in the pro-life movement.

As mentioned earlier, America’s growing “culture of coercion” will involve pharmacists as well in the area of assisted suicide (and probably already has, in some places). Health-care providers, including pharmacists, know that many chronically or terminally ill patients are clinically depressed, and could live much better lives if their depression were treated, which can often be done successfully. We’re approaching the time when lethal drugs will be prescribed; pharmacists, especially those who know their customers, will be ordered to dispense life-ending drugs even though they may suspect that the customer would benefit from an antidepressant. I think this will become an everyday dilemma.

KyMouse on December 15, 2009 at 10:31 AM

As mentioned earlier, America’s growing “culture of coercion” will involve pharmacists as well in the area of assisted suicide (and probably already has, in some places). Health-care providers, including pharmacists, know that many chronically or terminally ill patients are clinically depressed, and could live much better lives if their depression were treated, which can often be done successfully. We’re approaching the time when lethal drugs will be prescribed; pharmacists, especially those who know their customers, will be ordered to dispense life-ending drugs even though they may suspect that the customer would benefit from an antidepressant. I think this will become an everyday dilemma.

KyMouse on December 15, 2009 at 10:31 AM

They’re developing a functionalist approach to the Bill of Rights. Our “rights” to the end product of a chain of labor is coming to mean that no citizen employed as a cog has any freedom to refuse to produce that end product on moral grounds. The State will define your morality for you. As fewer and fewer people can personally remember Nuremberg, this will come to seem more reasonable.

Chris_Balsz on December 15, 2009 at 10:37 AM

I

volunteer in the ER of a city hospital that is prohibited by law from aborting babies; however, one day, I was asked to take to the lab a specimen that must have come from a mother who’d had a botched abortion somewhere else. The vial, which contained little pink bits swirling in bloody fluid, was labeled “product of conception.” What a cold, heartless phrase! Seeing that helped steer me toward working in the pro-life movement.

As mentioned earlier, America’s growing “culture of coercion” will involve pharmacists as well in the area of assisted suicide (and probably already has, in some places). Health-care providers, including pharmacists, know that many chronically or terminally ill patients are clinically depressed, and could live much better lives if their depression were treated, which can often be done successfully. We’re approaching the time when lethal drugs will be prescribed; pharmacists, especially those who know their customers, will be ordered to dispense life-ending drugs even though they may suspect that the customer would benefit from an antidepressant. I think this will become an everyday dilemma.

KyMouse on December 15, 2009 at 10:31 AM

As mentioned earlier, America’s growing “culture of coercion” will involve pharmacists as well in the area of assisted suicide (and probably already has, in some places). Health-care providers, including pharmacists, know that many chronically or terminally ill patients are clinically depressed, and could live much better lives if their depression were treated, which can often be done successfully. We’re approaching the time when lethal drugs will be prescribed; pharmacists, especially those who know their customers, will be ordered to dispense life-ending drugs even though they may suspect that the customer would benefit from an antidepressant. I think this will become an everyday dilemma.

KyMouse on December 15, 2009 at 10:31 AM
They’re developing a functionalist approach to the Bill of Rights. Our “rights” to the end product of a chain of labor is coming to mean that no citizen employed as a cog has any freedom to refuse to produce that end product on moral grounds. The State will define your morality for you. As fewer and fewer people can personally remember Nuremberg, this will come to seem more reasonable.

Chris_Balsz on December 15, 2009 at 10:37 AM

–So why do 46 or 47 states have “freedom of conscience” laws that already generally prevent you from being involved in abortions if you follow proper procedures? I think you’re losing your grip on reality.

Jimbo3 on December 15, 2009 at 11:23 AM

Aetheling,

THERE IS NO EXCEPTION IN CANON LAW FOR “SAVE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER” ABORTIONS!

Direct abortion is always and every where prohibited, resulting in latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication and is considered a serious (mortal) sin!

PKO Strany on December 15, 2009 at 8:14 PM

Comment pages: 1 4 5 6