Breaking: Senate defeats Nelson’s anti-abortion ObamaCare amendment; Update: Nelson hedges on filibuster

posted at 6:02 pm on December 8, 2009 by Allahpundit

Not a surprise but potentially a very big deal. Last week Nelson called the abortion language “non-negotiable” and vowed to filibuster the final bill if it didn’t make it in. If he’s true to his word then Reid is now stuck at 59, with lots more grief to come depending upon how Lieberman, Snowe, and Lincoln, among others, shake out on the public option Medicare “compromise.” TPM surveys the landscape:

The problem is Nelson holds all the cards. So assuming Nelson is unyielding on his filibuster threat, which seems like a reasonable assumption at this point, that means the Democrats need a GOP senator to get to 60. The most likely GOPer to defect is Olympia Snowe, but she comes with pretty high price: no public option for sure. She’s cool to even the latest compromise that would remove public option in exchange for expanding Medicare.

Left unmentioned here: Bart Stupak, who sponsored the anti-abortion amendment that passed the House, has sworn up and down that his pro-life coalition will kill the final bill if the abortion language in it ends up being watered down. If he’s true to his word, not only is the ping pong strategy well and truly dead but the whole endeavor’s now hanging by a thread. Unless they have a Santa bag full of legislative bribes, I don’t know how Pelosi and Reid are going to thread this needle between pro-lifers and -choicers.

The vote was 54/45. Stand by for the roll and updates.

Update: Here’s the roll. Democrats voting no (i.e. not to table the amendment): Bayh, Casey, Conrad, Dorgan, Kaufman, Nelson, and Pryor. Republicans voting yes: Just the wonder twins from Maine, natch.

Update: They called his bluff, and … it looks like it really was a bluff.

A few reporters waiting outside the door asked him how it would effect his decision on whether to support the final effort.

“I want to continue to work on this,” he said, not ruling out his support, at least “not at this point in time. I want to continue to work on the project we’re working on… This makes it harder right now [to support the bill]. We’ll have to see if they can make it easier.”


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a reasonable assumption at this point, that means the Democrats need a GOP senator to get to 60.

Paging Olympia Snowe & Susan Collins….Please pick up a Blue Rino Courtesy Phone….

portlandon on December 8, 2009 at 6:05 PM

Knife’s edge. Thanks for the update.

Spirit of 1776 on December 8, 2009 at 6:06 PM

These are not people I have any confidence in.

Cindy Munford on December 8, 2009 at 6:06 PM

7 Democrats joined Republicans to vote against tabling. The Hag Twins of Maine joined the Democrats to table it.

If those 7 Democrats refuse to vote for the bill now without that amendment, healthcare is dead in the water.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:06 PM

So, what’s it gonna take, Nelson, $3 billion, $5 billion, $500 billion? It’s easy to pay off politicians with taxpayer dollars.
Unless the taxpayers are paying attention.

NTWR on December 8, 2009 at 6:06 PM

Baffles me how they battle back and forth for a vote here, a vote there, on something as important as 1/6 the economy

John the Libertarian on December 8, 2009 at 6:07 PM

So it looks like the Senate Republicans were a bit smarter than the House Republicans on this little trick.

BadgerHawk on December 8, 2009 at 6:07 PM

None of these people are ever “true to their word”. They will all cave and this thing will pass.

yogi41 on December 8, 2009 at 6:08 PM

What else did anybody expect from the liberal scum in that senate?

rplat on December 8, 2009 at 6:08 PM

Further, what happened for an up and down vote on all bills. Didn’t Democrats scream for that during the time Republicans had Congress?

They didn’t even let it get an up-or-down vote.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:08 PM

I’ll paste it here I put this in the other thread I don’t think it matters. I think this bill is a done deal.

This bill is going to pass. Glenn said he thinks it’s going to pass before the year is out. It’s not going to be watered down. I think Nancy will vote on this bill. There will be no changing it cause they can always change it later, they know that.

When this bill is passed by both houses, it will be to loud cheers and clapping. Then they will come out and say they did it.

It will collapse our system within a few years. But that’s ok they passed it. I feel sick knowing there is nothing to do to stop this. American’s don’t want this piece of shit, we are being forced fed and it sucks. A LOT.

Brat4life on December 8, 2009 at 6:08 PM

Roll call is here.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:09 PM

Is that a portrait of John C Calhoun in the background of that picture? Another fantastic Democrat.

Jeff M (Formerly Jeff_McAwesome) on December 8, 2009 at 6:09 PM

So, what’s it gonna take, Nelson, $3 billion, $5 billion, $500 billion? It’s easy to pay off politicians with taxpayer dollars.
Unless the taxpayers are paying attention.

NTWR on December 8, 2009 at 6:06 PM

Even if the taxpayers are paying attention these jerks up there don’t care. All they have to do is add 0′s to the balance sheet. Viola free money for the state. What can we do about that. Nothing but vote them out.

Brat4life on December 8, 2009 at 6:10 PM

Lieberman, Snowe, and Lincoln,

Better be No, Yes and Yes.

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 6:12 PM

Casey is a fraud.

At the end of the day, I bet he votes for Obamacare.

joepub on December 8, 2009 at 6:13 PM

If the Democrats want to see their future, they need to look at the Massachusetts Democratic Primary today. You can hear crickets in the polling places. This is “unprecedented” arrogance.

kingsjester on December 8, 2009 at 6:14 PM

Roll call is here.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:09 PM

So am I reading that right that this amendment going down had more to do with the Dems being stupid strategically rather than the Republicans being smart?

BadgerHawk on December 8, 2009 at 6:14 PM

Shocka!
And the wonder twins? CU Next Tuesday x 2!

HornetSting on December 8, 2009 at 6:15 PM

Lieberman, Snowe, and Lincoln,

Better be No, Yes and Yes.

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 6:12 PM

Actually, Lieberman voted to table it, along with the Hag Twins of Maine.

Lieberman, though squishy, is still a liberal.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:15 PM

So when does the fantabulous GOP manage to kick out those two dolts from Maine? Seriously, what do those hags need to do to raise the ire of the party leaders?

I’m not supporting a party who allows this crap to continue, I’ll stay home, bury my contraband and maintain as low a profile as possible.

Bishop on December 8, 2009 at 6:15 PM

joepub on December 8, 2009 at 6:13 PM

That would be a negative.

Casey (D-PA), Nay

But unlike my damn senator, Begich, who is a slimy little turn and left my city in bankruptcy voted yes.

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 6:15 PM

Lieberman, though squishy, is still a liberal.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:15 PM

I think they are all a little squichy. Either they vote to save their job or vote to be a hero and in the history books for the rest of our natural lives. Either way… does it matter?

Time for new players!

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 6:16 PM

Kill the baby bill…

Seven Percent Solution on December 8, 2009 at 6:16 PM

relax – its still early in the game. folks are now on the record as they wanted to be supporting/opposing this amendment..

now the real horsetrading and legislative strategery can begin… /grabbing more popcorn

gatorboy on December 8, 2009 at 6:16 PM

American’s don’t want this piece of shit, we are being forced fed and it sucks. A LOT.

Brat4life on December 8, 2009 at 6:08 PM

I see no reason why anything the democrats do can’t be undone. It doesn’t begin until 2013. All it would take is a Republican Congress to tie everything up, and then a Republican president to sign.

The other option is for us all to march on DC and drag the traitorous bastards down the Capitol steps. Capitol police can’t shoot us all.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:17 PM

Capitol police can’t shoot us all.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:17 PM

No, but they can sure try. Tactically speaking.. there are other ways, which I won’t refer to on here.

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 6:19 PM

I swear to God. I might mount a self-funded campaign to make each of these criminals’ lives a living hell in their districts. They deserve NOT A MOMENT’S PEACE. They need to become PARIAHs in their home towns as the traitors and thieves that they are IF they are voted out. I will get in the face and call out anyone who steals my liberty and/or money. They are criminals who deserve NOT A MOMENT’S PEACE at any public place.

marklmail on December 8, 2009 at 6:19 PM

Obamacare is dead. At least there’s one liberal who wants to keep his job and maybe has a conscience.

orlandocajun on December 8, 2009 at 6:19 PM

None of these people are ever “true to their word”. They will all cave and this thing will pass.
yogi41 on December 8, 2009 at 6:08 PM

Absolutely correct.

rrpjr on December 8, 2009 at 6:19 PM

I see no reason why anything the democrats do can’t be undone. It doesn’t begin until 2013. All it would take is a Republican Congress to tie everything up, and then a Republican president to sign.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:17 PM

You’d need a Republican House, President and 60 seats in the Senate to undo it, which is why, once something horrible is signed into law, it’s almost never undone.

BadgerHawk on December 8, 2009 at 6:20 PM

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:17 PM

If they start collecting monies for this shit sandwich next year then they repeal this or stall it. Then congress will spend that money and we’ll be in worse shape if it’s not repealed. I just don’t trust them guys up there.

Brat4life on December 8, 2009 at 6:22 PM

You’d need a Republican House, President and 60 seats in the Senate to undo it, which is why, once something horrible is signed into law, it’s almost never undone.

BadgerHawk on December 8, 2009 at 6:20 PM

The reason 2010 is so important!

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 6:22 PM

Not sure if this will matter, but there was on Not Voting…Robert “EX-KKK GRAND WIZARD” Byrd.

BobAnthony on December 8, 2009 at 6:22 PM

That should be ONE!

BobAnthony on December 8, 2009 at 6:23 PM

Republicans voting yes: Just the wonder twins from Maine, natch.

Form of… a RINO!

(sorry, couldn’t resist after that Wonder Twins remark) :)

malclave on December 8, 2009 at 6:24 PM

How does a state as pro-life as LA keep voting for Landrieu. I think even a majority of Democrats in that state are pro-life and she vote for public funding of abortion. Lincoln is gone in 2010, so that’s that.

TimTebowSavesAmerica on December 8, 2009 at 6:24 PM

Sen. Bob Casey (D., Pa.) is the only other Democratic sponsor of the abortion amendment being proposed by Sen. Ben Nelson (D., Neb.). Turn on C-SPAN 2 now to see the final hour of debate on the measure.Will Casey continue to fight for pro-life issues in the health-care bill if the amendment fails today? Doubtful.

From the Allentown Morning Call:

But unlike Nelson, Casey said he will not vote to block consideration of the overall health care legislation if it fails to include the abortion restrictions.

”Even on the public option, even on other issues that are very important, like abortion, I am trying not to draw any lines in the sand because I want to get a bill passed,” Casey said.

That said, Casey insisted he is a strong supporter of Nelson’s amendment.

”I think it’s important that the Senate have a vote on what I believe is a consensus, not only among legislators but among the people, that we shouldn’t have public dollars pay for abortion,” Casey said.

NRO Corner.

Casey Senior must be spinning in his grave.

Wethal on December 8, 2009 at 6:25 PM

You’d need a Republican House, President and 60 seats in the Senate to undo it, which is why, once something horrible is signed into law, it’s almost never undone.

BadgerHawk on December 8, 2009 at 6:20 PM

Yeah, I know … it’s the democrats themselves that will give us everything we need. Only a small fraction of the country wants this … the ignorant and the radical.

If this passes, taxes go up immediately. By the time 2010 rolls around and the final bill has had it’s guts examined for all to see, added on top of everything else … we’ll take everything.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:25 PM

Republicans voting yes: Just the wonder twins from Maine, natch.

Form of… a RINO!

(sorry, couldn’t resist after that Wonder Twins remark) :)

malclave on December 8, 2009 at 6:24 PM

You forgot “Form of… flatulence.”

Since one turns into an animal and one turns into form of water.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:26 PM

TimTebowSavesAmerica on December 8, 2009 at 6:24 PM

Her family has been part of the Dem machine there.

Wethal on December 8, 2009 at 6:26 PM

Casey will vote for Obamacare. Bet on it. Abortion or no abortion, he’s too deep in Obot’s pocket.
When it passes, the earthquake you will feel near Scranton is Casey’s father rolling over in his grave that his son would vote for a pro-abortion bill.

either orr on December 8, 2009 at 6:27 PM

C’mon, this illegal bill will pass and Dems have enough election fraud tanked to win most elections and the GOP will whine but do NOTHING about it.

nelsonknows on December 8, 2009 at 6:27 PM

Breaking….

The Portland, Maine Gazette announced today that the brand new $450M Susan Collins Center for the Performing Arts was just included in the stimulus package.

And in unrelated news, Susan Collins now supports ObamaCare fully.

angryed on December 8, 2009 at 6:27 PM

angryed on December 8, 2009 at 6:27 PM

Exactly.

amerpundit on December 8, 2009 at 6:30 PM

86% of Senate Democrats voted against the Nelson amendment.

95% of Senate Republicans voted in favor of the Nelson amendment.

So WHY is the CATHOLIC CHURCH shilling for Democrats for the past 50 years?

jay12 on December 8, 2009 at 6:30 PM

Brat4life on December 8, 2009 at 6:08 PM

The EPA’s decision yesterday will crater the economy before the Obamacare death panels do.

chemman on December 8, 2009 at 6:30 PM

I wonder if states can simply refuse to participate.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:31 PM

Form of… a RINO!

(sorry, couldn’t resist after that Wonder Twins remark) :)

malclave on December 8, 2009 at 6:24 PM

You forgot “Form of… flatulence.”

Since one turns into an animal and one turns into form of water.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:26 PM

Thanks. Couldn’t think of a good water reference that didn’t involve toilet humor.

malclave on December 8, 2009 at 6:32 PM

At this point they are looking for a way out of this Obama inspired fiasco before it completely implodes their party for a couple of generations.

elduende on December 8, 2009 at 6:32 PM

So WHY is the CATHOLIC CHURCH shilling for Democrats for the past 50 years?

jay12 on December 8, 2009 at 6:30 PM

Corrupt.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:32 PM

I wonder if states can simply refuse to participate.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:31 PM

Arizona amended its constitution a few years ago in anticipation of such a bill. It grants its citizens the right not to be required to enter into a contract. A federal law usually trumps a state law, but a state constitution is another matter.

Wethal on December 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM

I wonder if states can simply refuse to participate.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:31 PM

You mean impose the 10th amendment? Good luck with that in the People’s Republic of CT-Stan or any state for that matter!

BobAnthony on December 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM

I wonder if states can simply refuse to participate.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:31 PM

Only if they include the opt-out option. But, even then, you are still on the hook for paying all of the taxes and not getting any benefit from it.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM

So WHY is the CATHOLIC CHURCH shilling for Democrats for the past 50 years?

jay12 on December 8, 2009 at 6:30 PM

“Social justice.”

Wethal on December 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM

At this point they are looking for a way out of this Obama inspired fiasco before it completely implodes their party for a couple of generations.

elduende on December 8, 2009 at 6:32 PM

I think it’s too late.

If only more democrats understood that the party has been taken over by communist progressives.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:34 PM

Only if they include the opt-out option. But, even then, you are still on the hook for paying all of the taxes and not getting any benefit from it.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM

What if they just refuse?

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:35 PM

Obamacare is dead. At least there’s one liberal who wants to keep his job and maybe has a conscience.

orlandocajun on December 8, 2009 at 6:19 PM

You shouldn’t assume facts that aren’t in the record.

chemman on December 8, 2009 at 6:35 PM

You mean impose the 10th amendment? Good luck with that in the People’s Republic of CT-Stan or any state for that matter!

BobAnthony on December 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM

I’m in VA where we just voted overwhelmingly for McDonnel.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:36 PM

“We Won!”

Grow Fins and her goat

Seven Percent Solution on December 8, 2009 at 6:36 PM

I wonder if states can simply refuse to participate.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:31 PM

Look what it did for Alaska. A bunch of whiners who still took the money and then blamed everyone else for the failure as the people who didn’t want it or participate in it were told to go F themselves.

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 6:37 PM

Wethal on December 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM

Are you sure that went through. If so, which amendment?

chemman on December 8, 2009 at 6:38 PM

splink on December 8, 2009 at 6:37 PM

yep.

Doesn’t it just tick you off. I am not sure when my senator and congressman where my elected high ruler of my state. I sure didn’t elect them to that position!

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 6:40 PM

So, it all depends on a couple of Democrats living up to their word. Lovely.

Kafir on December 8, 2009 at 6:41 PM

On the subject of healthcare, it has just been revealed that Britain has among the worst heart and cancer survival rates in the developed world:

* British cancer and heart attack victims are more likely to die than almost anywhere in the developed world;
* Asthma and diabetes patients are more than three times as likely to end up in hospital as their neighbours in Germany;
* Life expectancy in Britain – 79 years and six months for a man – is far worse than in France, where men expect to live until 81. The deficit is similar for women.

And here’s the money quote:

On the positive side, the survey shows British healthcare is much more equitable than most other countries.

So there you go folks. It does not matter how many people are dying, it does not matter how bad your cancer survival rates are…all that matters is that everyone suffers equally.

Sharke on December 8, 2009 at 6:43 PM

So WHY is the CATHOLIC CHURCH shilling for Democrats for the past 50 years?

jay12 on December 8, 2009 at 6:30 PM

Social Justice, the envelope that holds all the sins mankind ever committed against mankind.

fourdeucer on December 8, 2009 at 6:43 PM

What is interesting is three of the Dems voting NO are up for re-election in 2010: Bayh, Dorgan and the retiring Kaufman.

Bayh and Dorgan are probably dead meat if they vote to fund abortion for any reason. Pryor is from Arkansas and is unlikely to vote for abortion either.
The public plan is likely to stay as well causing Liberman and the Maine Senators to vote NO. That shows 54-46 for some kind of health care de-formation should all filibusters be defeated.

richardb on December 8, 2009 at 6:45 PM

But isn’t Obamacare and the EPA decision and cap n tax all unconstitutional? Can’t we get rid of them through the SCOTUS before Obama stacks it with commies?

Just wondering when to actually bail out of this formerly great country, of if hunkering down for a while will suffice instead.

NTWR on December 8, 2009 at 6:45 PM

Are you sure that went through. If so, which amendment?

chemman on December 8, 2009 at 6:38 PM

I stand corrected. Here is Geroge Will’s report. It lost by a hair, but will come up again next fall:

In 2006, long before there was an Obama administration determined to impose a command-and-control federal health-care system, a young orthopedic surgeon walked into the Goldwater Institute here with an idea. The institute, America’s most potent advocate of limited government, embraced Eric Novack’s idea for protecting Arizonans from health-care coercion. In 2008, Arizonans voted on Novack’s proposed amendment to the state’s Constitution:

“No law shall be passed that restricts a person’s freedom of choice of private health care systems or private plans of any type. No law shall interfere with a person’s or entity’s right to pay directly for lawful medical services, nor shall any law impose a penalty or fine, of any type, for choosing to obtain or decline health care coverage or for participation in any particular health care system or plan.”

Proponents were outspent five to one by opponents who argued, meretriciously, that it would destroy Arizona’s Medicaid program, with which many insurance companies have lucrative contracts. Nevertheless, the proposition lost by only 8,687 votes out of 2.1 million cast, and Arizonans will vote on essentially the same language next November.

But does not federal law trump state laws? Not necessarily. Clint Bolick, a Goldwater Institute attorney, says, “It is a bedrock principle of constitutional law that the federal Constitution established a floor for the protection of individual liberties; state constitutions may provide additional protections.”

In 1997, the U.S. Supreme Court held that under the Constitution’s system of “dual sovereignty,” states’ “retained sovereignty” empowers them to “remain independent and autonomous within their proper sphere of authority.” The court has been critical of the “federalism costs” of intrusive federal policies and recently has twice vindicated state sovereignty in ways pertinent to Novack’s plan.

Wethal on December 8, 2009 at 6:46 PM

Too many ways the Fed can punish out of line states, or just threaten them…education money that not even Utah (in the end) rejected is a big one.

splink on December 8, 2009 at 6:37 PM

Fine, let then withhold money for education. That means we don;t have to abide by their propaganda and can teach what we want.

Something has to give. The US wan’t designed with the Fed having so much power over the states.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:48 PM

I wonder if states can simply refuse to participate.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:31 PM

The Feds will just cut off all federal funding to the states, that’s how the Federal Government extorts states to do their bidding.

nelsonknows on December 8, 2009 at 6:49 PM

If those 7 Democrats refuse to vote for the bill now without that amendment, healthcare is dead in the water.

Enoxo on December 8, 2009 at 6:06 PM

Actually, I think it means “healthcare is saved”
It’s the takeover that will be dead. Melt the phones, tell your friends. Kill the bill!

JusDreamin on December 8, 2009 at 6:50 PM

nelsonknows on December 8, 2009 at 6:49 PM

Hey go in headlines and check out the flag vs HOA thing because I was wondering were you were for that federal law concerning the american flag being flown outside your house. I can’t remember what it was.

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 6:52 PM

figures that abt. the twinkies….oh goodness!

deidre on December 8, 2009 at 6:52 PM

So WHY is the CATHOLIC CHURCH shilling for Democrats for the past 50 years?

jay12 on December 8, 2009 at 6:30 PM

Among other reasons…they wonder why people have left

CWforFreedom on December 8, 2009 at 6:52 PM

I hope Ben “fence rider” Nelson’s Nebraska headquarters have been reporting the negative commercials that are being aired on the radio about him. Heard one while scooping snow.

yoda on December 8, 2009 at 6:53 PM

So there you go folks. It does not matter how many people are dying, it does not matter how bad your cancer survival rates are…all that matters is that everyone suffers equally.

Sharke on December 8, 2009 at 6:43 PM

I think I’d rather die dragging a scumbag, corrupt, communist democrat down the steps of the Capitol than die from a totally inept health care system.

I think the consequences of passing this bill haven’t even been thought about. Many doctors are simply going to retire or quit practicing. In the UK, many native doctors left and came here. Now what will they do?

The UK invited foriegn doctors to come and promised citizenship for them and their familes.

I dunno … the whole thing sounds more like the democrats have declared war on us than anything else. We’re not the UK, or France, or Canada.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:54 PM

If he’s true to his word,

Politicians are never ever true to their word, their word is always for sale…

doriangrey on December 8, 2009 at 6:54 PM

I’ll stay home, bury my contraband and maintain as low a profile as possible.

Bishop on December 8, 2009 at 6:15 PM

You mean you still have some!

Everybody else on here had some darn lepercons come in the night and steal all their stuff. Nobody has any guns or ammo anymore.

Yoop on December 8, 2009 at 6:56 PM

The Feds will just cut off all federal funding to the states, that’s how the Federal Government extorts states to do their bidding.

nelsonknows on December 8, 2009 at 6:49 PM

OK … what’s the problem? The state will have to cut it’s federally mandated social programs, cut all federal programs. The people of any particular state will more than likely stick together if threatened by the federal government.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:57 PM

You may be missing the point – no state can afford to do that.

splink on December 8, 2009 at 6:54 PM

No, I understood your point. Cutting the federal purse strings would be painful but I bet if people understood why, most would rather be independent of the fed.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:59 PM

The people of any particular state will more than likely stick together if threatened by the federal government.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:57 PM

Only Red States that have some sort of natural resource or volume need that is transported around the country.

Alaska has it’s oil, gas and coal. The Feds won’t push too much…
Kansas has natural gas and is heavy on the agricultural… won’t push much.

But

California… will stop and cower. NJ, Mass, NY (who is almost void of farmers) and other smaller and Blue State will all cower. Watch.

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 7:00 PM

Sorry, just move to Ohio, Indiana or Illinois (we’ve lived in all three). You pick. Your answer will be the same.

splink on December 8, 2009 at 7:01 PM

Indiana wouldn’t be so bad if they would put a cap on their welfare issues and not let just anyone get welfare. It is mostly a red state, much like michigan. And they both need a push to become a red state again and bring back the industy they lost as well as take down the taxes.

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 7:03 PM

We already are like them; we wouldn’t be where we are now if we weren’t. To paraphrase Bork, we’re just coasting on the fumes of prior patriotic generations, but the tank for the fuel of liberty has run dry. Tortured analogy, but I believe it. I was hopeful for awhile but now begin to wonder again if there just aren’t enough of us.

splink on December 8, 2009 at 6:59 PM

We’re not like them because they have never been like us. Sure we’ve been headed that way for a while and it’s been done incrementally, slowly.

This Obama guy wants to finish it off by cramming the rest down our throats all at once. Stupid move. The nation has a gag reflex.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 7:03 PM

What needs to happen once this crap is passed is for citizens to start suing. This has to make it before the Supreme Court to be ruled unconstitutional. I’m sure there are plenty of lawyers willing to bring this forth, pro bono.

yogi41 on December 8, 2009 at 7:08 PM

Capitol police can’t shoot us all.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 6:17 PM

No, but they can sure try. Tactically speaking.. there are other ways, which I won’t refer to on here.

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 6:19 PM

I doubt I’ll see armed resistance in my lifetime. however, I would not be surprised to see:
1: A state legislature seriously contemplate secession
2: Multiple states challenging the Federal Government on a variety of issues, citing the 10th Amendment.
3: A wide spread John-Galt-like uprising where taxpayers simply refused, en masse, to stop supporting the unConstitutional Federal activities, and held their taxes in escrow with their State government until we return to Constitutional government.

Red State State of Mind on December 8, 2009 at 7:09 PM

Only Red States that have some sort of natural resource or volume need that is transported around the country.

Alaska has it’s oil, gas and coal. The Feds won’t push too much…
Kansas has natural gas and is heavy on the agricultural… won’t push much.

But

California… will stop and cower. NJ, Mass, NY (who is almost void of farmers) and other smaller and Blue State will all cower. Watch.

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 7:00 PM

Sorry, just move to Ohio, Indiana or Illinois (we’ve lived in all three). You pick. Your answer will be the same.

splink on December 8, 2009 at 7:01 PM

I just can’t see people just accepting whatever Washington desires. Populations may end up shifting.

darwin on December 8, 2009 at 7:09 PM

upinak on December 8, 2009 at 7:00 PM

Even Alaska has cowered in the past to federal mandates like speed limits and drinking age which have only been fought by ONE state, Oklahoma.

nelsonknows on December 8, 2009 at 7:09 PM

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