Video: Head of IPCC dismisses Climategate, relies on peer review

posted at 10:55 am on December 7, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

As expected, the chair of the IPCC led off the Copenhagen AGW summit with a dismissal of the Climategate scandal. Rajendra Kumar Pachauri sniffed at the entire controversy as merely a “theft,” echoing Barbara Boxer and apparently signaling the approach to be taken by everyone at the conference. In doing so, Pachauri defended the University of East Anglia CRU and the IPCC itself on the basis of peer review — which the e-mails exposed in Climategate show UEA-CRU actively attempting to undermine:

As Mark Steyn noted, the same people Pachauri hails as part of the scientific, peer-reviewed effort conspired to pervert peer review itself:

Here’s what Phil Jones of the CRU and his colleague Michael Mann of Penn State mean by “peer review.” When Climate Research published a paper dissenting from the Jones-Mann “consensus,” Jones demanded that the journal “rid itself of this troublesome editor,” and Mann advised that “we have to stop considering Climate Research as a legitimate peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers.”

So much for Climate Research. When Geophysical Research Letters also showed signs of wandering off the “consensus” reservation, Dr. Tom Wigley (“one of the world’s foremost experts on climate change”) suggested they get the goods on its editor, Jim Saiers, and go to his bosses at the American Geophysical Union to “get him ousted.” When another pair of troublesome dissenters emerge, Dr. Jones assured Dr. Mann, “I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow — even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!”

Which in essence is what they did. The more frantically they talked up “peer review” as the only legitimate basis for criticism, the more assiduously they turned the process into what James Lewis calls the Chicago machine politics of international science. The headline in the Wall Street Journal Europe is unimproveable: “How To Forge A Consensus.” Pressuring publishers, firing editors, blacklisting scientists: That’s “peer review,” climate-style.

The more their echo chamber shriveled, the more Mann and Jones insisted that they and only they represent the “peer-reviewed” “consensus.” And gullible types like Ed Begley Jr. and Andrew Revkin of the New York Times fell for it hook, line, and tree-ring. The e-mails of “Andy” (as his CRU chums fondly know him) are especially pitiful. Confronted by serious questions from Stephen McIntyre, the dogged Ontario retiree whose Climate Audit website exposed the fraud of Dr. Mann’s global-warming “hockey stick” graph), “Andy” writes to Dr. Mann to say not to worry, he’s going to “cover” the story from a more oblique angle:

I’m going to blog on this as it relates to the value of the peer review process and not on the merits of the mcintyre et al attacks.

peer review, for all its imperfections, is where the herky-jerky process of knowledge building happens, would you agree?

And, amazingly, Dr. Mann does! “Re, your point at the end — you’ve taken the words out of my mouth.”

Climbing onto “peer review” as a moral high ground after the exposure of these exchanges is high irony, low chutzpah, or both.

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Comment pages: 1 2

Why did the U.N. dress up the GEICO caveman in a suit and have him deliver a speech on climate change?

jon1979 on December 7, 2009 at 10:58 AM

Oh no!!! Green suits look lousy on cavemen too.

rhombus on December 7, 2009 at 11:02 AM

Holy Jesus look at this freak!

ClassicCon on December 7, 2009 at 11:02 AM

Not surprising. The headline on the video should read “Scientist” blasts Climategate, though.

If it comes out that this is all a power grab and has little to do with real science, these guys will lose their free hookers and their university tenure.

Hide the decline!

Asher on December 7, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Who is that science fiction looking guy anyway? Anybody know why he is qualified to speak of climate science? Just wonderin’.

Itchee Dryback on December 7, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Climate change scandal, So easy even a caveman can do it.

SHARPTOOTH on December 7, 2009 at 11:03 AM

I would trust the GEICO caveman more than this lying puppet.

kriscoleman on December 7, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Mr Pachauri is basically a railway engineer.

Here’s his CV.

Tell me what part of his education or career qualifies him to head anything to do with climate.

EnglishMike on December 7, 2009 at 11:04 AM

“So easy, a caveman can do it.”

Torch on December 7, 2009 at 11:04 AM

Pachauri jetted off to a soccer match in India during one of the coffee breaks, so was unavailable for comment.

KS Rex on December 7, 2009 at 11:05 AM

Is that George Clinton, the high king of Funkadelic?

kingsjester on December 7, 2009 at 11:06 AM

How did Pachauri arrive in Copenhagen? Private jet? Commercial? Did he take a limo?

And let me repeat in case anyone forgot. IT FREAKING SNOWED HERE IN HOUSTON ON DECEMBER 4!!!

Doughboy on December 7, 2009 at 11:06 AM

It’s fun watching these people go down in flames.

As time goes by, the cooks, freeloaders and moochers will be marginalized. Patience.

rollthedice on December 7, 2009 at 11:06 AM

cooks = kooks. :)

rollthedice on December 7, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Holy Jesus look at this freak!

ClassicCon on December 7, 2009 at 11:02 AM

Who is that science fiction looking guy anyway?

Itchee Dryback on December 7, 2009 at 11:03 AM

You can’t see it in the photo, but his fingernails are six feet long!

As for his qualifications, or lack thereof, see my previous comment.

EnglishMike on December 7, 2009 at 11:07 AM

Why is it these “scientists” all look like wackos??

AZDREAMER on December 7, 2009 at 11:07 AM

The amazing thing is that peer review was never intended to be the gold seal of approval for scientific papers. No peer reviewer would ever take the time to analyze the raw data, to re-run the tests. The job of the peer reviewer was to read through the paper and make sure it made sense.

Was the raw data provided, was the method described clearly enough so that someone else could replicate the experiment if they wanted to. And finally, do the results make sense.

The claims that if an article was peer reviewed, that it therefore must be correct and unchallengeable, would be laughed out of the office in any field other than climate science.

MarkTheGreat on December 7, 2009 at 11:08 AM

Pachauri has sworn that he will spend the remainder of his time tracking down the Real Emails.

LibTired on December 7, 2009 at 11:08 AM

he looks like he escaped from Ringling Brothers Circus…

This BOZO is trying to lecture me on science already debunked as a huge FRAUD and HOAX????

SDarchitect on December 7, 2009 at 11:08 AM

2500 peer reviews of fake data by people who already agreed with the findings.

sonofdy on December 7, 2009 at 11:10 AM

Listen, it’s simple. The is a consensus on climate change among climate science peers and if you don’t agree you are no longer a peer. So, the consensus is the same. Got it?

Rocks on December 7, 2009 at 11:11 AM

I love y’all, I was feeling guilty about my unkind surprise at this gentlemen’s appearence. He does not instill confidence in anything.

Cindy Munford on December 7, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Steve McIntyre at climateaudit.com has a very interesting take on the “uber-viral” (where internet coverage exceeds MSM coverage) nature of the climategate scandal story:

Updating the comparisons, “Climategate” has 32,000,000 google hits as compared to 4,080 news stories (Google), while “Tiger Woods” has 29,500,000 google hits with 54,018 news stories (Google). Although Tiger has over 10 times as many news stories, Climategate (remarkably) has more google hits than Tiger Woods (and many other famous search items e.g. Britney Spears, NFL, NBA or for that matter “climate”).

bigjack on December 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM

It’s Ravi Shankar without his sitar.

sdd on December 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Climbing onto “peer review” as a moral high ground after the exposure of these exchanges is high irony, low chutzpah, or both.

……..

What are you talking about?-Charlie Gibson

artist on December 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Doughboy on December 7, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Given his early career, maybe by train?
/sarc

Incidentally, it seems counterintuitive, but diesel-electric locomotives are extremely efficient at moving freight.

I just like to keep that in mind when environuts start screaming about eeeevil hydrocarbons!

cs89 on December 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Speaking of theft: Police Round Up Notorious Gang “The Hockey Stick CRU” in International Sting Operation http://optoons.blogspot.com/2009/11/police-round-up-notorious-gang-hockey.html

Mervis Winter on December 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM

jon1979 on December 7, 2009 at 10:58 AM

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

D2Boston on December 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Mr. Pichu is actually wearing a disguise. Its really a rubber suit that he will peel off at the appropriate time to reveal his true identity…one of our lizard Overlords. Reliable, though anonymous sources have verified this.

Itchee Dryback on December 7, 2009 at 11:13 AM

If you choose the peers, you’re never reviewed.

Except if a hacker “peers” into your E-mails.

Jones / Mann: We support peer-reviewed science. All who disagree with us are stupid, and are not peers. Global warming is real, the data are wrong.

So let it be written, so let it be done. You love Big Brother.

Steve Z on December 7, 2009 at 11:13 AM

Climate change scandal, So easy even a caveman can do it.

SHARPTOOTH on December 7, 2009 at 11:03 AM

+1.

LastRick on December 7, 2009 at 11:14 AM

Why is it these “scientists” all look like wackos??

AZDREAMER on December 7, 2009 at 11:07 AM

Maybe because he’s not a scientist at all but really ManBearPig.

LastRick on December 7, 2009 at 11:15 AM

I hate these people.

Missy on December 7, 2009 at 11:16 AM

Sorry, but how does looking like a slob decrease your carbon footprint?

Daddy-O on December 7, 2009 at 11:17 AM

Wow… it all becomes clear…

this gentleman just wishes us to return to the Good Ole CAVEMAN days!

Romeo13 on December 7, 2009 at 11:17 AM

Is that George Clinton, the high king of Funkadelic?

kingsjester on December 7, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Tear the roof off the sucker

thebrokenrattle on December 7, 2009 at 11:18 AM

Man this guy looks like about just one generation out of the cave!

patriotparty1 on December 7, 2009 at 11:18 AM

I mean seriously, can’t he come up with enough cash for a haircut? I mean if he really needs it I could loan him 10 bucks.

Johnnyreb on December 7, 2009 at 11:18 AM

They bashed Bush about putting his religious beliefs into policy. Yet this guy is an avowed vegetarian based on his, and he’s trying to affect policy to make all of us give it up. Strange, no?

bikermailman on December 7, 2009 at 11:19 AM

Wait till the NASA Data hits the fan….just saying the other shoe is going to drop.

Dr Evil on December 7, 2009 at 11:19 AM

Wow. They are holding on desperately w/both hands to their fraud. Screaming, kicking and clawing at anyone who would dare to question the fantasy of consensus.

Science has been restored to its rightful place, people. Move along, d*mmit!

JAM on December 7, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Tell me what part of his education or career qualifies him to head anything to do with climate.

EnglishMike on December 7, 2009 at 11:04 AM

He’s pro-AGW

RagTag on December 7, 2009 at 11:20 AM

When did Gollum become the high priest of the Global Warming Religion?

Jerricho68 on December 7, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Love the “Siemens Answers” ad in the upper right corner. One of the uninicted corporate co-consipirators in the climategate scandal. This company stands to reap billions lobbying this lie.

bigjack on December 7, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Is that Charles Johnson?

Knucklehead on December 7, 2009 at 11:20 AM

I am very hopeful for the future if this is the best they got.

rollthedice on December 7, 2009 at 11:21 AM

Is that Charles Johnson?

Knucklehead on December 7, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Charles Manson.

rollthedice on December 7, 2009 at 11:22 AM

Man this guy looks like about just one generation out of the cave!

patriotparty1 on December 7, 2009 at 11:18 AM

Which is precisely where he wants to take us back to.

Diane on December 7, 2009 at 11:22 AM

Hide The Decline Parody Video.

Dr Evil on December 7, 2009 at 11:18 AM

They showed excerpts of hide the decline on CNN.

Jerricho68 on December 7, 2009 at 11:22 AM

I wish, I Wish, I WISH, that there was a way to post images on Hot Air.

This’ll have to do.

http://sparks.brushfireoffreedom.org/post/2009/12/07/Copenhagen.aspx

it is an IP Photoshop of a Copenhagen ad. Read the small print.

:)

TCJ on December 7, 2009 at 11:22 AM

Odumbass and his goons are going to use the EPA to get around cap-n-tax.

txag92 on December 7, 2009 at 11:23 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEiLgbBGKVk

Juan Williams or “AllahPundit” as you know him still believes in ManBearPig.

Jerricho68 on December 7, 2009 at 11:24 AM

“It’s only a flesh wound.”

- The Black Knight, after arms and legs are severed

fogw on December 7, 2009 at 11:25 AM

Steyn’s real money quote:

Looking forward to Copenhagen, Herman Van Rumpoy, the new president of the European Union and an eager proponent of the ecopalypse, says 2009 is “the first year of global governance.” Global government, huh? I wonder where you go to vote them out of office.

gwelf on December 7, 2009 at 11:25 AM

It’s Ravi Shankar without his sitar.
sdd on December 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Don’t demean the maestro.

I like the Gecko thing.

antisocial on December 7, 2009 at 11:25 AM

The claims that if an article was peer reviewed, that it therefore must be correct and unchallengeable, would be laughed out of the office in any field other than climate science.

MarkTheGreat on December 7, 2009 at 11:08 AM

But peer review is the end all for pro-science people. If a theory gets a favorable peer review then that’s it, done deal, factual and indisputable.

Of course in the AWG world only pro-AWG peer reviews are legit. All others are bought and paid for by BIG OIL or done by unqualified people like, weather girls and railway engineers. Maybe even plumbers.

RagTag on December 7, 2009 at 11:25 AM

I suspect there is a very quiet, and very quick internal review going on right now at NASA that will go back and “fix” everything they adjusted. Then they will just be put it out there like it had always been there. Someone who knows how to do that stuff should go and get screen caps of the NASA AGW stuff before it changes.

Johnnyreb on December 7, 2009 at 11:25 AM

What else can he say? “Never mind”?

Jim Treacher on December 7, 2009 at 11:26 AM

Why did the U.N. dress up the GEICO caveman in a suit and have him deliver a speech on climate change?

jon1979 on December 7, 2009 at 10:58 AM

Lol

nyx on December 7, 2009 at 11:26 AM

“Huh? What is this ‘ClimateGate’ thing you mention, Mr. Pachauri? We have not heard of such a thing, so it must obviously be as unimportant and insignificant as you suggest. We will continue to ignore this. Thank you.” NBC, ABC,CNN,CBS,NPR, etc.

Fishoutofwater on December 7, 2009 at 11:26 AM

The hippies are not aging well.
(Just go to any craft show and see.)

faol on December 7, 2009 at 11:27 AM

The IPCC should have required all attendees to arrive in Toyota Insights’s

J_Crater on December 7, 2009 at 11:29 AM

Holy Jesus look at this freak!

ClassicCon on December 7, 2009 at 11:02 AM

The hippies are not aging well.
(Just go to any craft show and see.)

faol on December 7, 2009 at 11:27 AM

No, not well at all. They appear to be morphing.

Diane on December 7, 2009 at 11:30 AM

peer review, for all its imperfections, is where the herky-jerky process of knowledge building happens, would you agree?

And, amazingly, Dr. Mann does! “Re, your point at the end — you’ve taken the words out of my mouth.”

And dodging FOIA requests, destroying raw data and ensuring that your work is only ‘peer’ reviewed by those who are complicit and won’t apply an ounce of skepticism qualify as ‘imperfections’.

gwelf on December 7, 2009 at 11:31 AM

***
This IPCC “CHAIR” looks like he must have been “sampling” the Copenhagen tourism benefits scene all night long before this video was taken. Especially the booze, drugs, and “free” hookers!
***
Would you buy a car or stock from someone who looks like this?? How about buying a “climate change” from him?
***
John Bibb
***

rocketman on December 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM

Diane on December 7, 2009 at 11:30 AM

That was racist, wasn’t it? *sigh* I totally just meant his hair. Oh dear…don’t ban me.

Diane on December 7, 2009 at 11:34 AM

Yeah, right. The peer review team consists of those reknowned climatologists Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, and Dr. Howard.

kingsjester on December 7, 2009 at 11:34 AM

He’s still mad about not getting the scientist part in Back to The Future.

faol on December 7, 2009 at 11:34 AM

Man, f**k dat guy; I hate dat guy.

DrZin on December 7, 2009 at 11:35 AM

It’s like ACORN investigating itself.

SouthernGent on December 7, 2009 at 11:35 AM

As someone here said earlier, I love this big tent coalition of Russian spies, rationist scientists, conservatives, and now…the Saudi’s.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30291.html

bigjack on December 7, 2009 at 11:36 AM

I love being preached to by people who’ve produced more pollution in one weekend than I will my entire life.

gwelf on December 7, 2009 at 11:37 AM

“It’s only a flesh wound.”

- The Black Knight, after arms and legs are severed

fogw on December 7, 2009 at 11:25 AM

We have a winner. End of thread.

bigjack on December 7, 2009 at 11:37 AM

Diane, how the hell was that “racist?” Give yourself a frikkin’ break. Man, people are on eggshells these days about “racist.” Holy Mackrel!

Oh, my. I hope it wasn’t racist to mention “mackrel,” which is an animal, in the same thread in which a non-caucasian is prominently featured!!

DrZin on December 7, 2009 at 11:38 AM

MarkTheGreat on December 7, 2009 at 11:08 AM

True, Peer review only really checks for internal consistency and plausibility (kind of like a Grand Jury). I would have avoided having to submit a correction for one of my papers had I had someone actually look at my data and code in detail (amazing what one misplaced apostrophe will do).

Count to 10 on December 7, 2009 at 11:41 AM

Does anyone else here remember the old lyrics “We belong to a mutua-a-al admiration society, my baby and me”? This hoax reminds me of the self-regard of these peer reviewers. one big circle jerk of a love-in that is blinded by unethical Science.

Raw data cannot stand the disinfecting light of day–It’s dumped. Alternate theories or debunking cannot stand the light of day–We’re throwing you out of the Hair Club for Men.

onlineanalyst on December 7, 2009 at 11:41 AM

Who reviews the peer reviewers?

albill on December 7, 2009 at 11:41 AM

Yeah, right. The peer review team consists of those reknowned climatologists Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, and Dr. Howard.

kingsjester on December 7, 2009 at 11:34 AM

And the finest legal minds from the law firm of; Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

Johnnyreb on December 7, 2009 at 11:41 AM

DrZin on December 7, 2009 at 11:38 AM

It’s okay, you didn’t mention dolphins (aka “kittens of the sea.”)

cs89 on December 7, 2009 at 11:41 AM

You think this kind of intellectual dishonesty exists only in the climate science world? The peer review process has been a dirty little secret the so-called unbiased academics hide behind. But now we don’t need it anymore. Just make scientists put their data on line.

MADgirl91 on December 7, 2009 at 11:42 AM

They showed excerpts of hide the decline on CNN.

Jerricho68 on December 7, 2009 at 11:22 AM

That’s saying something because CNN has been letting every global warming alarmist have their say uninterrupted – no challenging. Maybe they figured out how ratings work?

That’s a great video, Hide the Decline Parody, and you can dance to it :)

Dr Evil on December 7, 2009 at 11:43 AM


The U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has promised to investigate the scandals, although its chairman said Monday that it provided no basis for questioning the science behind global warming.

I’m not sure I could purposefully devise a more tortured logic than this statement. What the F**K IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE????

Fishoutofwater on December 7, 2009 at 11:43 AM

That was racist, wasn’t it? *sigh* I totally just meant his hair. Oh dear…don’t ban me.

Diane on December 7, 2009 at 11:34 AM

Yes, it was. The PETA will get you for that insult.

faol on December 7, 2009 at 11:44 AM

Who is going to stop these lying frauds?????? Not America.

mobydutch on December 7, 2009 at 11:45 AM

@$$holes! Every one of you!

;-)

MNHawk on December 7, 2009 at 11:47 AM

Fishoutofwater on December 7, 2009 at 11:43 AM

They are treading water they are trying to save what little face they have left. If I was them I wouldn’t be leaving any recorded words APPEARANCES that could be used against them in a court of law. They don’t appear to get that this is the beginning not the end of Climategate. They are trying to Bluff their way through and put as good a face on it as they can. Whistling past the graveyard.

Politicians will throw them under the bus first chance they get. I suspect they will start turning on each other when they start getting subpoenaed. Those scientist aren’t built for incarceration :)

Dr Evil on December 7, 2009 at 11:47 AM

Oh…it’s Mann-made global warming. I guess we can’t argue with that.

James on December 7, 2009 at 11:48 AM

I note — He resembles the character Elvis Stojkov plays in the Christmas skating specials — A stand-in for the devil.

So I assume when your science goes falsified, carry on?.

And when it comes to the science of AGW, the missing greenhouse signature means what? Al Gore has lost his warm blanket and run away and hid.

It’s interesting to note that all the GCMs use the now known CRU fraudulent data as their initial value, and all GCMs predict Al Gore missing blanket. In a sane world, that would be enough, fraudulent GCM outputs not verified, but falsified.

So our dear reader is going to say, I wasn’t lying, just reading.

tarpon on December 7, 2009 at 11:49 AM

How pathetic is it that it’s our friends the Saudis calling for an investigation, rather than US.

Drained Brain on December 7, 2009 at 11:49 AM

Did this guy procreate? You know, since man is responsible for all the ills in the world.

Kissmygrits on December 7, 2009 at 11:49 AM

I suspect they will start turning on each other when they start getting subpoenaed. Those scientist aren’t built for incarceration :)

Dr Evil on December 7, 2009 at 11:47 AM

What a hilarious picture that creates in my mind! Thanks, Dr.

Fishoutofwater on December 7, 2009 at 11:51 AM

But peer review is the end all for pro-science people. If a theory gets a favorable peer review then that’s it, done deal, factual and indisputable.

RagTag on December 7, 2009 at 11:25 AM

Sarcasm?
In physics, a huge verity of theories get published. The ones that end up true/verified often get Nobel Prizes, so just being peer reviewed is to be taken with a grain of salt.
(And that isn’t even including the truly crackpot ideas that don’t make it into publication — like “I have discovered that gravity is just magnetism”)

Count to 10 on December 7, 2009 at 11:55 AM

That’s a great video, Hide the Decline Parody, and you can dance to it :)

Dr Evil on December 7, 2009 at 11:43 AM

That repeated, deep “Hide the decline” line is stuck in my head already, and I’ve only seen it once. I’m really surprised someone managed to put together something that good so quickly. Is it based on an existing song?

Count to 10 on December 7, 2009 at 11:58 AM

DrZin on December 7, 2009 at 11:38 AM

slight sarcasm on my part. :P

Diane on December 7, 2009 at 12:03 PM

stolen from a discussion at volokh

Here’s yet a third hypothetical for you. For some reason (perhaps 9/11, but perhaps not), a group of people are convinced that Islamic terrorism is a threat to our society. They come up with the solution of expelling all the Muslims. Of course, if they are wrong, the solution will end up hurting a lot of people who are causing no problems. There are a few dissenters who disagree, some thinking there’s no threat from Islamic terrorism at all, some thinking that there is a threat but not one that justifies extreme measures that hurt a lot of people in the name of preventing a catastrophe that may or may not happen. Would this situation lead to an industry of anti-expulsion skeptics?

agmartin on December 7, 2009 at 12:05 PM

Count to 10 on December 7, 2009 at 11:58 AM

Tommy James and the Shondells “Draggin The Line”

Dr Evil on December 7, 2009 at 12:06 PM

As time goes by, the cooks, freeloaders and moochers will be marginalized. Patience.

rollthedice on December 7, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Like the young circling buzzard said, “Patience H3ll”.

Johan Klaus on December 7, 2009 at 12:07 PM

“Science is about probability, not certainty.”

Andy Revkin, NYTIMES, Yesterday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/07/science/earth/07climate.html?_r=3

Thats not the way I learned it. Isn’t science, essentially, a search for truth, not a search for a 70% chance of truth?

And even if science has some uncertainty on the course to find the truth, do we really want to gamble trillions of dollars on a coin flip?

GopherCon on December 7, 2009 at 12:07 PM

Do all of these greenies get their marching orders from “democrat.talkingpoints.com”?

Johan Klaus on December 7, 2009 at 12:09 PM

Comment pages: 1 2