Are targets too low for Afghan army?
posted at 9:30 am on December 2, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Part of the decision to have an 18-month window for the American mission in Afghanistan is a calculation for training additional Afghan troops. The NATO command has authorized the training of 134,000 Afghans for the native army, and Obama thinks that the enhanced effort could get that as high as 150,000. But that number is far too low, says the commander of the Afghan army, and has the historical record to prove it:
Gen. Sher Mohammad Karimi, operational commander of Afghanistan’s defense ministry, said a 134,000-member Afghan National Army is shy of what is needed.
“The 134,000 army, which has been approved so far, it is not enough for our country,” he said. “We have requested to increase that number to at least 240,000.”
He said even during the 1970s, during the reign of King Mohammad Zahir, the ranks of the Afghan army didn’t fall below 200,000 — and the target was for 250,000 troops. “Then, everywhere was peace. There was no fighting,” he said. “Today, with Taliban militants and international terrorists, we even need more troops than during the king’s time.”
Of course, the Afghan army in Zahir’s time was not terribly well-equipped. That became obvious when the Soviets rolled into Afghanistan, initially with ease, in 1980. A more modern army, with technological training and the proper infrastructure, could make up for lower numbers with increased capabilities.
However, Afghanistan completely lacks infrastructure. They only have a handful of paved roads outside of the major population centers, no real network of military bases except what NATO has implemented, and almost no lines of communication as a result. In order to secure Afghanistan, the army will need a very large infantry and a lot of off-road vehicles to move them around the country.
And even if roads magically appeared in the next few months — and remember that the Taliban has targeted road-building and electricity-producing projects — the Afghan army is not going to get that technically adept in 18 months. It took the new Iraqi army years to build those capabilities, and Iraq had the infrastructural support as well as having been a fairly modern state with an educated populace on which to draw. Afghanistan has none of that, nor will they develop it within a generation.
The Obama administration has the right idea, but a very misguided sense of scale and time commitment to reach those goals.









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Um, no.
I work with and have worked with avowed leftists for years. Why anyone is taking Obama at face value is beyond me. If there was no political price to pay, he’d withdraw yesterday. The 18 months is purely a political ruse, not a military calculation. If the Afghan army fails, he has his cover… but he couldn’t care less.
mankai on December 2, 2009 at 9:35 AM
Afghanistan amazes me; how does the place even qualify as a nation with such a backward state of existence?
Bishop on December 2, 2009 at 9:37 AM
Multiculturalism!
All nations are equal to or greater than the US.
mankai on December 2, 2009 at 9:39 AM
Absolutely dead-on, Mankai…
The meme needs to start getting pushed out that this President…hell, Candidate Obama, always says (said) one thing and does another…
Its easy to push out guidelines if the man has no intention to stick to them…
CapitalistPig on December 2, 2009 at 9:40 AM
Helicopters on embassy rooftops will become the icon for the Obummer presidency.
bloviator on December 2, 2009 at 9:42 AM
doesn’t it take longer than 18mos. to train our fighting men & women? and doesn’t some of the high-tech eqmt take years of coordinated training between groups of soldiers?
does this mean the Afghans are so much smarter/savvy than our own soldiers in the art of warfare?
what does Bambi mean exactly?
kelley in virginia on December 2, 2009 at 9:45 AM
Hard to imagine, considering his extensive military experience.
Daggett on December 2, 2009 at 9:47 AM
You know who else thinks so? Everyday Afgahns.
Afghans Unimpressed By Obama’s Troops Surge
Abby Adams on December 2, 2009 at 9:47 AM
It probably wasn’t worth taking for the country that its rivers flow into. Actually, that’s probably part of it: any nation that is cut off from the ocean gets screwed out of independent trade, and can easily end up an economic basket case if it isn’t on very good terms with its neighbors.
Count to 10 on December 2, 2009 at 9:48 AM
He means he hates the military… wants out ASAP… but his advisers are telling him that he has to pretend that he cares and has to find a way to get the troops out before 2012 and then blame the Afghan army when the place falls to the Taliban.
The left is back on board by 2012 and he can tell independents he tried, but apparently the Afghans just don’t care (it’s their fault)… he then will infer that Bush should have understood that before he got us into TWO ill-fated wars.
The fall of Saigon was the fault of the Left, but they never paid a political price for it… they just blamed the S. Vietnamese government (that they double-crossed).
mankai on December 2, 2009 at 9:51 AM
Any sports coach or military leader will tell you: you go into the arena to win, or you don’t go in.
Frankly, Bush — both Bushes — struck me as unwilling to let the military do what it needed to do for victory, either in Iraq or Afghanistan. But they look like military geniuses when compared to Osama Obama.
The Chicago Jesus has as good as painted targets on the back of our soldiers or, at the very best, given the terrorists an excuse to take a two-year vacation while we have boots on the ground in Af/Pak.
Despite Ed Morrissey’s conciliatory words and excuses for the Traitor-in-Chief, this is indeed now Obama’s War, since he chooses to (let others) fight it in a way that seems ripe for American humiliation and needless sacrifices.
MrScribbler on December 2, 2009 at 9:51 AM
This is what 30,000 looks like.
Those kids better get crackin’, they have much to do in a very short time.
Trusser13 on December 2, 2009 at 9:52 AM
It looks like what passes for a river in Afghanistan passes through Turkmenistan (and maybe Iran) to the Caspian sea. Not great, but it would be something if they weren’t cut off even from that by national boarders. Seriously, if you look at a map, Afghanistan looks like a mountain desert that the countries around it couldn’t be bothered with. If there is one place on the planet that really ought to be part of a bigger country, Afghanistan would be it.
Count to 10 on December 2, 2009 at 10:01 AM
What we and the military have on our hands here is the equivalent of a child playing with a loaded firearm. A special needs child at that.
And all we can do is pray.
TXUS on December 2, 2009 at 10:04 AM
Someone told me the last line of his speech was “On that Monday when the war ends and the last troops come home, I’ll do a photo-op with the last one off the plane. Then on Tuesday, we’ll have a little party at the White House with that soldier invited… maybe we’ll serve arugula from Michelle’s garden and kobe beef.”
CC
CapedConservative on December 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM
PRIORITIZE!
National Security is the number one federal responsibility BEFORE funding Big Brother’s Nanny HealthCare death blow. Give McChrystal everything he needs to succeed swiftly, not just what gets left over from the PORK BARREL BAIL-OUT depleted Congressional Budget.
btw, I agree that Afghanistan should not be the never-ending war/occupation that the US habitually produces. Since we’re broke, we should rescind our funds budgeted to the UN before we play Scrooge with our own self-defense/troops. Since we’re broke, we should logistically tar and feather corrupt contractors rather than permit them to abscond with our tax funds appropriated for our TROOPS. But so long as we ARE at war, for the obvious national security reasons, our domestic industries should produce our war needs and TRANSPARENCY ABOUND PRIOR TO ANY CONTRACT THROUGHOUT EVERY PAYMENT.
There is no “national security” protection that hides the tax funded money paper trail.
maverick muse on December 2, 2009 at 10:18 AM
This applies to liberals in general, on any number and range of topics.
Wind Rider on December 2, 2009 at 10:22 AM
It used to be a third world nation, pre Soviet invasion. IIRC, various agricultural products such as nuts were a big export. But it has basically been in a civil war for the last 30 years and degraded a third world state to a fifth world region.
18 months is not going to make anything better. There doesn’t need to be a strong national government, perhaps a 1790s type weak US federal government would be the best to hope for, but apparently Dear Liar doesn’t even want that. He wants only the appearance of doing something military, which annoys Him as He plots to continue to cripple the US domestically.
rbj on December 2, 2009 at 10:23 AM
They probably need more local control. Basically, all the central government should be doing is keeping the local governments in line (guaranteeing individual rights) and fighting the countries enemies. Most of the corruption is probably because of all the money that is being funneled through the central government.
Count to 10 on December 2, 2009 at 10:28 AM
This is really the key…
When “we” think of a modern battlefield, the equipment is used by people who come INTO the military already fairly educated, and who have used technology all their life.
We don’t have to teach folks to drive… or READ.
Add in that it takes YEARS to build a Non Commisioned officer (Seargants) who are the backbone of any military force… and Afganistan has NONE of these as they have no real Military Tradition past that of the Muj’s, who are organized on tribal lines….
134,00 US Army personel could hold that country… 134K Afganis will not be able to. They will NOT be a Modern Mechanized Army until they can have an educated group to draw recruits from.
This plan, IMO, is a non starter… it won’t work.
Romeo13 on December 2, 2009 at 10:32 AM
Or a lot of horses. Yes, the Afghan army isn’t going to be fighting off any mechanized divisions for some time. It doesn’t have to.
So it stays like Wyoming for another 30 years. We don’t really need Afghan soldiers to know how to repair a computer, they need to be able to climb 5000 ft slopes and operate a mortar and get comfy fighting in the dark. Uncle Ho demonstrated that even a 105mm cannon is portable through all terrain, if you have the manpower and take those pesky wheels off.
By all means get as many thousand Afghans as possible taking money to kill Taliban. So what if they ride around on mules and are supplied by helicopter. It’s not any easier for the enemy, and he’s outnumbered, too. Let’s outfight him.
Chris_Balsz on December 2, 2009 at 10:34 AM
Gonna sound weird coming from an American… but with their culture and lack of infrastructure, Democracy has and will continue to fail there…
Best thing we could do? Install a KING. They need at least one generation of political stability… and a King would fit into their cultural framework and traditions.
Romeo13 on December 2, 2009 at 10:35 AM
Count to 10 on December 2, 2009 at 10:01 AM
Sounds Empirically British redux, pushing logic beyond reason?
Would that make sense to Afghans, their own purist tribes, since no other nation is going to “protect” Afghanistan as its own?
What, then. Incorporate Afghanistan within nuclear ballistic Pakistan?
If indeed a DESTRUCTION is ever determined requisite to the preservation of the USA, why wish the compounded target? Because both need to be taken out? That requires eliminating the populations of both countries, something the US has never been willing to do.
You can catch the Afghan intelligence specialist report analyzed on Fred Thompson’s show yesterday with Dr. George Friedman, CEO of Strafor. In short, we lack the intelligence factor to protect any troop level, large or small; and the Taliban owns the intelligence monopoly in Afghanistan/Pakistan. McChrystal’s entire premise would be based upon gaining trust from those who ARE Taliban while facing the reality that the Taliban won the Afghan civil war because they ARE the leading Afghani military force. The Afghan army that the US is attempting to train have more fear of the Taliban than they have of the US, PARTICULARLY given Obama as CinC.
maverick muse on December 2, 2009 at 10:36 AM
The entire Afghan plan and timetable is based around one thing: the 2012 Presidential elections and the re-election of Barack Obama.
The only place Obama cares about winning is his next election.
albill on December 2, 2009 at 10:36 AM
We (the American military tradition) is all about using Mobility and Firepower instead of numbers…
We are really the wrong army for the Afganis to use as a model…
The really need to go to the British system during the Colonial period… Educated Foreign Officers and NCOs with native troops… even if the O’s and NCOs need to come from the Saudis or other Arab cultures…
Romeo13 on December 2, 2009 at 10:41 AM
The WSJ editorial mentions in passing that McChrystal had planned to stand up a force of 400,000 Afghans but was vetoed by Obama for cost and retention reasons.
John E. on December 2, 2009 at 10:45 AM
A body can pretend to care. But they can’t pretend to be there.
If the head of the Afghan Army says he needs 240,000 men minimum to secure the country, THEN GIVE IT TO HIM.
What a nimrod!
Subsunk
Subsunk on December 2, 2009 at 10:51 AM
The Taliban in Afghanistan come from the Afghan Tribes. Tribal allegiance trumps all, no matter what we outsiders “teach” as an improvement. You can lead a horse to water, but can’t make it drink. The Afghans fear the Taliban more than they fear the compassionately enlightened US. And the US does have our own historical record of fighting foreign wars that are limited in duration per presidency.
Obama would excuse his pronounced time-line for withdrawal based upon real time precedent or consistent coincidences established by every 20th Century POTUS. When the “new” Potus Nixon got elected with his “secret plan” to end the war, he pulled out claiming “Peace With Honor” from the Democrat War in Vietnam that the former LBJ both CHOSE to fight strictly on the basis of political pride given JFK’s wag-the-dog engagement, yet LBJ failed to permit the military to win and conclude.
May Providence bless and keep our men and women facing harm on our behalf. May their goal be clearly concise, may logic defeat PC, and may our troops unencumbered hands enjoy the right to self defense and victory.
maverick muse on December 2, 2009 at 10:57 AM
I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard an Iraqi say “Inshallah” when talking about something that NEEDED to be accomplished while I was over there. “God willing.” They act like they are completely powerless to influence anything at all, and if it happens it will be God’s will, not the sweat of their own brow.
And yet, the terrorist elements certainly don’t live by that codicil. They act as though they are DOING God’s will.
Sigh. I hope this isn’t completely pervasive in Islamic culture.
Red Cloud on December 2, 2009 at 10:57 AM
“Of course, the Afghan army in Zahir’s time was not terribly well-equipped. That became obvious when the Soviets rolled into Afghanistan, initially with ease, in 1980.”
My recollection may be wrong, but I thought the Russians went in to help the Afghanistan central government.
davod on December 2, 2009 at 11:03 AM
From what I have seen, it is. Only the extremists believe they can hasten the fatalistic end through effort, but the same end either way.
saiga on December 2, 2009 at 11:11 AM
Lack of infrastructure, a rail system sure would be helpful connecting the three big areas Herat/Kabul/Kandahar. Who uses the paved roads? Logistically if you wanted to move troops around inside of Afghanistan, what would work the easiest? A lot of Afghans are rural, and nomadic they aren’t using motorized vehicles, they are using donkey carts :) Put in some mass transit to start connecting them together. “Transportation” I don’t know what the
“Communication” situation is in Afghanistan with “Cell” towers?
We have been in Afghanistan since Nov of 2001 and they still have open sewer system – not enclosed, in Kabul, and I know folks are using generators for power. How come after 8 years we can’t at least get the capitol set up for basics? I suspect corruption so why does NATO think Nation Building is such a great idea?
Dr Evil on December 2, 2009 at 11:38 AM
I think Obama just sent a message to Iran were not leaving the region. Obama is putting in enough troops to kick this can down the road for the next Administration.
The illiteracy rate in Afghanistan is very high if you could get the children going to school on a regular basis how many generations would it take to build a nation around them?
Lawrence Eagleburger said it to Neil Cavuto yesterday on Your World, Afghanistan isn’t a country it’s a collection of tribes.
Dr Evil on December 2, 2009 at 11:42 AM
Considering that they assassinated the Communist President almost immediately, I’m thinking that was just an excuse. Also, this happened in 1979, not 1980 as Ed thinks. By the dawn of 1980, the Soviets had already installed their puppet and occupied the levers of power in the capital.
calbear on December 2, 2009 at 11:43 AM
Sure, let’s get the Afghan army up to 250,000. Hell, why not half a million while we’re dreaming up ideas?
Where do these people come from? Who cares!
How do we get recruitment to outpace attrition? Not my problem!
Who pays for the salaries of all these people, given that Afghanistan is an incredibly poor country? Well, I’m sure the party of fiscal responsibility who never puts a tax burden on future generations can figure that out, right?
For Morrissey to advocate a larger Afghan army without even addressing these obvious roadblocks is pretty ridiculous.
orange on December 2, 2009 at 12:09 PM
What isn’t talked about is the kind of war that must be fought, and while COIN plays a part the active and kinetic part is Mountain Warfare. What stopped the British and Soviets? Acting like Empires, having centralized bases and not engaging in Mountain Warfare. Consider that every adult male outside of the cities has a culture of passing the warrior history of his tribe and clan down to him, and that is the culture that defeated Soviets, British, Persians and many, many others. It is not a modern form of the Nation State and we would have to look to European history to understand it better: the Scots come to mind, Vikings, Gauls, Germans (especially defeating a Roman Legion) with a bit of the Huns and Mongols thrown in for good measure. That is the culture you are looking at, a tribal agreement culture, not as sophisticated as, say, the Iriquois Nations but close to the Plains Indians of our continent.
The Swiss were not Swiss until they banded together and got organized, before then they had internecine conflicts between Cantons and no one considered the region to be particularly dangerous, beyond Hannibal in ancient times when his army crossed through there and then, like all high mountain ranges, it was the elements he had to fight. If he had to face even 100 Roman soldiers who knew Mountain Warfare, he would have been screwed, royally. The Swiss were just a people with a cross-roads that everyone wanted until they got organized and took down larger armies with small forces. That took some time for the Swiss to get organized, and Napoleon was the last to clean sweep the region and even he had the brains to put in local administrators and keep changes to the laws minor, and by 1812 they were free, again.
Modern war of infrastructure and supply has major problems in mountainous terrain, because a squad can hold up an army, as the Germans found out when the Partisans were able to hold up and attrit an entire Armor Division and only once the Alpenkorps got sent in did things run half-way well. We have a grand total of two choke points through which 90% of our supplies go through, and those choke points run through the Pashtun tribal territories. They have been periodically interrupted time and again, and a concerted effort by local tribes and suicide bombers could close that up entirely in a day.
What does win?
Overwhelming force can push back, but the casualty rates are high and the results can only be held with lots of forces that are not garrison troops. You can’t hold mountainous terrain without patrolling it constantly.
High tech gets equalized by lack of oxygen and air pressure, sudden changes in temperature that can go over 100 degrees in a day (from 90 above to 10 below with a temperature inversion), and by the way normal materials act in those conditions. Batteries freeze. Small wiring gets brittle along with plastic. And you have to carry all materials to survive with you. Not to mention weapons.
Bodies that are not acclimated to high altitude get worn out fast, very fast. No matter how rigorous the flatland training, only training at low oxygen and pressure can let you get mountain based stamina. Typically a year of training is necessary for this, and altitude sickness can still happen.
Thus to properly fight in the region you need troops acclimated to the altitude, specialized equipment to deal with sudden temperature inversions, tested equipment that has lubricants that won’t either evaporate or congeal, and generally a lot of stamina at altitude per trooper. Aircraft typically lose 30% of their lift capability in Afghanistan, so helicopters and AIRCAV become a tricky question and you need more airframes, per unit, than you do at lower altitudes.
These troops are specialized, and the US 10MD is typical of them: high morale, high pack loads, and fighting the old fashioned way on the ground with whatever you can get that works. The Canadians, in particular, surprised the locals by waging an effective Winter Campaign, which is nearly unheard-of in Afghanistan, and the spring after that yielded the famous 28 training bases found in Pakistan. Mountain Warfare is often just doing that: finding bases and camps for others to deal with. Small unit tactics are King in Afghanistan.
Who has won there?
Alexander the Great with an effective fighting force of 10,000. He took an impregnable fortress, on a mountain top, at night with 100 men… well, less if you believe the stories. Afghan tribes STILL talk about him and his exploits there, so he made an impression on them. His Empire fell with his death, not by insurrection. He won with small unit, mountain acclimated fighters who were willing to take on the terrain and still fight in a way the locals understood. Make no mistake about: audacity and capability get respect in Afghanistan, and if you can do the impossible in the way that is understood you get respect.
COIN must work hand in glove with Mountain Wafare or you are not successful, as the Nazis found out in Yugoslavia. The Alpenkorps couldn’t do it all and the COIN failed. We have a lot to unlearn about warfare in Afghanistan and a lot to brush up on… and we, as a Nation, are doing neither. Our troops could nail what needs to be done, but they also need leadership and backing that understands the problem. Too bad that requires history and understanding the cultures of the region, not Multi-Culti but actually understanding the warrior culture there. We cannot win as we understand it, therefore we must change our understanding and win with new parameters that still get us to where we want to be. A second Mountain Division would be a great start. That we aren’t thinking in those terms tells me much of just how sophisticated our modern culture is… or isn’t.
ajacksonian on December 2, 2009 at 12:17 PM
They have a very, very, very high unemployment rate.
Not rocket science. You see to it that most of your quitters bail in the field, not in base. That slows desertion. Then you never commit all your units to any operation, you don’t send replacements into the field, and when a unit is exhausted by losses you break it up, promote the survivors and use them as cadre in a new unit. It requires dedicated unit officers and firm discipline and as much attention to morale as equipment maintenance. That’s how commie partisans and the Foriegn Legion did it, anyhow.
In a country where a working man can expect to make about $350 a year, we can pay 240,000 troops for the price of one Congressman’s airport. In gold. And to stretch the family dollar, boost recruitment, and keep up morale in the field, have some soldiers in town to ‘explain’ the benefit of serviceman’s discounts to anybody trying to mooch off military families.
Chris_Balsz on December 2, 2009 at 12:32 PM
If combating attrition is so easy, why hasn’t anybody done that in the last 8 years?
Even using your numbers, you don’t mind spending $84 million a year for the next several decades to pay Afghan soldiers who have no loyalty to the US? And that’s not even getting into the equipment and infrastructure they’ll need.
orange on December 2, 2009 at 12:41 PM
***
Aren’t the warlords who control the opium fields the real employers in Afghanistan? The drug money is the real funding source for Afghan soldiers.
***
Is any victory possible there without many years of casualties in our military? Can airpower and drone attacks do the job?
***
It seems like a bag of cobras to me–no real good choices.
***
John Bibb
***
rocketman on December 2, 2009 at 12:56 PM
For one thing, US commanders wanted a “low footprint”. For another, outlying warlords did not really want a huge central army.
That’s what, 3 murthas? How much did we just spend destroying perfectly operable 1999 Ford trucks? I know most Americans can’t believe you can get by without a 4-lane highway, but if it will take 3 years and a billion dollars to build a 1450-mile road that gets rocketed all day, it may be cost-effective to replace the whole motor pool 3x a year. When you kick the ass of the ambushing guerrillas, damage from insurgent fire will drop to $0.
In 1917, without air or roads, a nation of 100 million raised an army of 1 million troops, sent them to France in 12 months, and 55,000 of them were killed in combat. This is remembered as a triumph. Get your head right.
Chris_Balsz on December 2, 2009 at 1:31 PM
the US troop level will peak at 100,000. it takes a minimum of 5 Afghan troop to each American troop for the same operational tasks so a minimal estimate of needed Afghan troops is 500,000, NOT 125,000.
a more reasonable estimate of Afghan troops required would be around 1 Million troops.
another NObama Failure
mathewsjw on December 2, 2009 at 1:41 PM
Have the outlying warlords changed their mind?
Again, that’s “3 murthas” per year every year into the foreseeable future. Before we consider equipment and infrastructure. And paying for our troops, who are (rightfully) a bit more expensive.
(btw, I find it interesting that a “murtha” is now defined as “an insignificant amount of money”, which implies that Murtha’s earmarks are insignificant.)
Sure, that’s easy to say when it’s not your vehicle that just broke down in the middle of nowhere due to poor road conditions, leaving you as a sitting duck for insurgents.
Maybe it’s even more cost-effective to pull out.
For the most part, I’ve appreciated your thoughtful responses. However, surely the answer to Afghanistan is a bit more complicated than “kick their ass”.
orange on December 2, 2009 at 1:45 PM
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head right there man. How about instead of defoliating poppies or trying to pay off farmers to grow something else (which I can guaran-damn-tee you they aren\’t doing now even if they take the payments) we (or any other modern country with a Pharmaceutical Industry) buy the poppy?I mean that would actually I dunno MAKE SENSE?! The farmers get top dollar for their poppies and the drug lords don\’t get a damn thing. Drug companies make the opium into methadone, morphine, and other narcotic painkillers. Considering that Afghanistan produces the opium used in 70%-90% of the world\’s illicit drugs that should help everyone out on multiple fronts.
SgtSVJones on December 2, 2009 at 2:25 PM
A bit high; the British and French imperial armies held to a 2:1 ratio. And even so, you only need to beef up field operations that way. You don’t need Afghan clerks and cooks in the garrison.
That’s got to be involved in any program.
The simple fact is that there are at least several thousand yahoos over there who believe Almighty God wants somebody to blow up the Space Needle in Seattle. (They tried, Clinton’s DOJ caught on in time). So if we can disrupt their lives with thousands of ill-trained, mercenary riflemen for the cost of a kamikaze moon rocket, I’m for it.
The plan to rehabilitate the Taliban warlords reminds me of the moving reconciliation ceremonies the medieval Church had for repentant outlaw nobles. Very touching things, a parade through town, incense and prayers and oaths and hugs from the king and the archbishop. Some barons repeated it five times…
How dare you suggest the US military soil itself with the drug trade.
Give the concession to the French; nobody expects any better from them, and hard cash income will tie them in tighter than any treaty.
Chris_Balsz on December 2, 2009 at 3:35 PM
Chris I made no such suggestion and I really don’t see how anyone could have a problem with the idea presented above nor how it even comes close to suggesting as you put it
I simply stated that U.S. policy position towards opium farmers should be that instead of trying to get the farmers off the poppy-which we have been trying for several years now with little to no success for a variety of reasons including intimidation by the Taliban and the fact that for many people no other crop provides near enough income to provide for their families-that we (the U.S. government) broker a tentative deal between say GlaxoSmithKline (to name one major drug manufacturer in the U.S.) and the province of Khandahar. GSK pays x per tonne of poppy and the province gets a nice chunk of change that can be spent on local improvement projects.
This:
-Keeps the farmers happy b/c they can still grow the poppy and get money (poppy is the most profitable crop in Afghanistan)
-Keeps the poppies from being used by the Taliban to fund themselves, and
-Keeps them out of the hands of illegal drug cartels instead putting them to good legal medical use in form of morphine, methadone, and codeine (to name but a few opioid-derived medicines used worldwide by medical professionals). Drug cartels lose money and there is less HEROIN worldwide.
At no point did I ever suggest that the U.S. military become drug runners or involved in any way with the illegal drug activities that have flourished since we ousted the Taliban.
SgtSVJones on December 2, 2009 at 4:42 PM
The US Military is great at kicking ass, though. And they’ve been over there for 8 years. The problems are not to to a lack of kick-assery.
Can you give me a citation for this simple fact? I hear it’s more like 100 yahoos who want to do that.
But disrupting the lives of people in Afghanistan can also push people towards terrorism.
Much like some Afghan recruits have gone through paid training several times, collected the money, and run before ever serving in the Army.
orange on December 2, 2009 at 5:01 PM
My bad for leaving the /sarc off… I do suggest we let a proxy run that, lest we get hit with “blood for Big Pharma”
Yeah I’m counting “fellow travelers” who share their values. I think we agree there’s plenty of Afghans who aren’t active on those beliefs yet. (I seriously doubt AQ is down to 100 unless we have a list of 100 names. I don’t think the FBI got that accurate with the Mafia without informants).
Chris_Balsz on December 2, 2009 at 6:46 PM
Is the second sentence supposed to be related to the first? Are you saying that Afghans who are not active jihadists still need to have their asses kicked? How do you intend to kick the asses of the jihadists who don’t even know they’re jihadists yet without causing an incredible amount of chaos?
Regardless, while certainly there are more than 100 Taliban insurgents, those are people with local concerns. There is no evidence that they wish to attack American soil, nor is it likely that they have the resources to do so. So they do not count amongst those who wish to blow up the Space Needle, as you said.
Well, you’re entitled to your doubts. But that number reflects the conclusion of American intelligence agencies and the Defense Department. It’s always possible you know more than they do, I guess (That would explain the Minority Report-style action you seem to be advocating earlier). But I have my doubts.
For something you claimed was a “simple fact”, it doesn’t seem to be very easy for you to substantiate it.
orange on December 2, 2009 at 7:27 PM
Sorry Chris…I take the slander of my brothers & sisters in arms & uniforms quite seriously.
However the reason I suggested this model is because this is the very same thing that IRAQ does with their major export product OIL! In the very beginning the U.S. set up the first few deals for the first several years but it is now run entirely by the Iraqi Oil Ministry.
Iraq sells oil (or in a very very very few cases drilling rights), the money is paid to the government of Iraq and then Baghdad divides it up amongst the various provinces.
SgtSVJones on December 2, 2009 at 8:23 PM
Orange, how far are they from terrorists if you think they can be ‘pushed to terrorism’?
Just as the intense fury of Meiji imperialism was smashed, so we can break Central Asian terrorism. As we do that they will draw new converts. If we leave though, they will draw new converts. Not everybody supporting the US military has served or will serve; so too I think there are thousands of Afghans who gladly let AQ alone to do its work.
Chris_Balsz on December 2, 2009 at 10:01 PM