WSJ: The AGW bubble is about to pop

posted at 12:15 pm on December 1, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

We’ve certainly seen our share of bubbles created by government interventions.  The housing-market collapse triggered the worst financial meltdown in decades, and we’re still feeding that bubble in hopes of containing the damage.  The Obama administration created a short-lived auto bubble with its Cash for Clunkers program that ended up targeting vehicles already on the lots from last year and eroding demand for new production.  Now Bret Stephens writes at the Wall Street Journal that the scandal known as Climategate may pop bubbles in both Academia and the artificially-created “green economy”:

Consider the case of Phil Jones, the director of the CRU and the man at the heart of climategate. According to one of the documents hacked from his center, between 2000 and 2006 Mr. Jones was the recipient (or co-recipient) of some $19 million worth of research grants, a sixfold increase over what he’d been awarded in the 1990s.

Why did the money pour in so quickly? Because the climate alarm kept ringing so loudly: The louder the alarm, the greater the sums. And who better to ring it than people like Mr. Jones, one of its likeliest beneficiaries?

Thus, the European Commission’s most recent appropriation for climate research comes to nearly $3 billion, and that’s not counting funds from the EU’s member governments. In the U.S., the House intends to spend $1.3 billion on NASA’s climate efforts, $400 million on NOAA’s, and another $300 million for the National Science Foundation. The states also have a piece of the action, with California—apparently not feeling bankrupt enough—devoting $600 million to their own climate initiative. In Australia, alarmists have their own Department of Climate Change at their funding disposal.

And all this is only a fraction of the $94 billion that HSBC Bank estimates has been spent globally this year on what it calls “green stimulus”—largely ethanol and other alternative energy schemes—of the kind from which Al Gore and his partners at Kleiner Perkins hope to profit handsomely.

Supply, as we know, creates its own demand. So for every additional billion in government-funded grants (or the tens of millions supplied by foundations like the Pew Charitable Trusts), universities, research institutes, advocacy groups and their various spin-offs and dependents have emerged from the woodwork to receive them.

This has been one of the credibility issues with the AGW movement from the beginning, although one built into government grants for research in general.  Government grants create a market for research, which universities and other institutions create supply to meet, as Stephens rightfully notes.  That gives government a great deal of power to distort academic markets, if you think of them in those terms — and a massive incentive for the providers to endorse the reasoning behind the supply.  After all, concluding that an issue is negligible or nonexistent means the end of such grants.

But researchers have ethics and a sense of responsibility as scientists, some will argue in return.  That may be true in many or even most fields, but the e-mails exposed at the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit — one of the premier institutions pushing the anthropogenic global-warming theory — show that the AGW field was not among them.  The e-mails repeatedly discuss ways to hide bad and contradictory data and ways to attack other scientists arguing against their conclusions.  The charitable conclusion to draw from this is that they believe in AGW so much that they became high priests instead of researchers; the less charitable conclusion was that they didn’t want the gravy train to end.  Either or both, they stopped doing science a long time ago.

With the discarding of the raw data by East Anglia CRU, the pretense at science has ended.  The cash incentives for reaching those conclusions should end as well.  If AGW is real, then let the scientists build a transparent and complete data set for all to review openly that proves it, instead of only publishing subsets of “adjustments” and destroying the raw data.  Science welcomes critical review; corrupted advocates shrink from it and conspire to block it.  While some may argue over the benefits and problems with government funding of the former, no one can argue that the latter deserves a red cent of public money to encourage it.  Hopefully, Stephens’ optimistic assessment of the end of the AGW bubble will be borne out, but that will take a discipline with public money that this administration and Congress have yet to demonstrate on any level.

Update: Every once in a while I’ll write a headline, and later wonder what the heck I was thinking.  That’s the way the cookie, er, pops, I guess.  Bubbles don’t crumble, obviously.

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3

Well, there is of course a difference between AGW themed policy and general environmental protection / pollution curbing, both of which have merits outside of heading off a changing climate.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 12:42 PM

No one is saying stop logical environmental protection…but stop any additional bills based on this phony global warming.
You are just throwing out a straw man…
The fact is, liberals have been caught scamming the system…so you have a “time-out” from all bills until it is sorted out.
The world is not going to fall apart if you take 9 months and analyze the scope of the scam…

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 1:16 PM

Because the data may have been faked or even completely falsified doesn’t mean that we should not be taking actions (not necessarily legislation, but concerted efforts) to produce less gas and pollution and waste.

scalleywag on December 1, 2009 at 1:12 PM

What are you talking about? How does fighting a Marxist scheme to steal money and control the world’s population imply that suddenly no one cares about pollution or waste?

Stop.It

darwin on December 1, 2009 at 1:18 PM

Another reason for the govt to get out of the business of public schooling.
Science education has fallen by the wayside.
I continually hammer my high school science students about crtitically thinking for themselves about what they hear in the news related to science.
Hopefully I have done a little of something to help close this ignorance gap.

Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 12:24 PM

I wonder…
I always hated labs and science projects in school — it was like fake science. Do what someone else has done, get graded on how close you get to their results. I wonder if this is related.
(I ended up with a PhD in Physics, so it wasn’t the science that bothered me.)

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:18 PM

“Catastrophic man-made global warming” has always been a wholly ludicrous idea. Why would facts make any difference to people who already “believe” in something so preposterous?

July 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:20 PM

The proof that AGW is a scam is evident in their visceral opposition to nuclear energy. If reducing CO2 was truly their aim then they would embrace nuclear energy … instead, all they want is inefficient wind and solar power.

darwin on December 1, 2009 at 1:20 PM

Nobody is saying this. Except “Warmthers” trying to smear “deniers.”

uknowmorethanme on December 1, 2009 at 1:03 PM

Actually, you’re 1/2 right. Its not so much AGW deniers making that argument, its the ‘burdensome regulation’ folks doing it ;-)

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 1:21 PM

AGW stands for? Anti-Global Warming doesn’t seem to fitmike_NC9 on December 1, 2009 at 12:31 PM

All
Getting
Wealthy?

I can’t think of a better word for the “A”

How ’bout
Al
Gore’s
Wealth?

darwin-t on December 1, 2009 at 1:22 PM

A conflation of the definition of evolution is happening every day. But species aren’t turning into other species every day or any day.

LibTired on December 1, 2009 at 12:58 PM
A definition of species is little more than one group of animals that is sufficiently different from other groups of animals. Enough little changes, and by definition, you have a new species.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 1:07 PM

species= a group of potentially or actively interbreeding populations that are productively isolated from all other populations.
Which makes you essentially right, Mark.
LibTired, regarding polyploidy, this results in a brand new species and has happened naturally, as well as probably intentionally through human induced changes.
Considering how little we really know about the natural world, and the continuing advances in understanding genetic traits, I cannot rule out the possibility that our definition of ‘species’ may eventually change and the process of speciation will probably garner even more evidence.

Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 1:22 PM

The proof that AGW is a scam is evident in their visceral opposition to nuclear energy. If reducing CO2 was truly their aim then they would embrace nuclear energy … instead, all they want is inefficient wind and solar power.

darwin on December 1, 2009 at 1:20 PM

If they were serious about reducing energy use, why aren’t they promoting underground or earth sheltered houses?

darwin-t on December 1, 2009 at 1:23 PM

AGW proponents are the ones who should be labeled “deniers”.

They have invented, falsified and distorted data to invent a problem where none existed and at the same time denied the real science and data.

darwin on December 1, 2009 at 1:23 PM

I would pay really good money to see Mann, Jones, Hansen, et al lined up and shot. Preferably by a poor farmer from sub-Saharan Africa or India by whom adherence to the “global warming” fetish would have condemned to squalor and poverty. Call it getting even for Rachel Carson, since that bint is already dead.

PimFortuynsGhost on December 1, 2009 at 1:23 PM

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 12:42 PM

The subject is the fraud that the AGV religious is trying to foist upon us. Nice try though.

Johan Klaus on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

Fortunately, the few vaguely academic minds that argue against climate change are completely unsullied by grant money from energy companies and right-wing donors. Nope, they don’t take a dime.

Supply, as we know, creates its own demand.

Whatever his larger point it’s hard to take him seriously after this line. Aside from the fact that if it were true, no business would ever go broke, it’s the people supplying the money who are the “demanders” and the people supplying the reports who are the “suppliers.”

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

The arguments come from an almost vindictive place, as if to stick it to liberals, causing environmental destruction and harming the health of various communities is a noble goal.

I understand that not everyone on the right feels this way, but it warrants pointing out.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 12:48 PM

I find myself in the shocking position of agreeing with ernesto.

Now, we would probably disagree as to just HOW FAR the government should go in protecting the environment. I would say that it is a matter of property rights — you don’t have the right to do something that is going to cause excessive pollutants in my well, or noxious fumes to blow across my property, or dangerous levels of chemicals or microbes in the stream running through my property, nor to change the terrain in such a manner as to substantially alter drainage onto my property. Enforce those private property protections, and most environmental issues will be resolved.

RegularJoe on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

If they were serious about reducing energy use, why aren’t they promoting underground or earth sheltered houses?

darwin-t on December 1, 2009 at 1:23 PM

I dunno … because they’re not serious?

Nice name.

darwin on December 1, 2009 at 1:25 PM

If they were serious about reducing energy use, why aren’t they promoting underground or earth sheltered houses?

darwin-t on December 1, 2009 at 1:23 PM

The most radical of the environmentalists are. But the politically mainstream ones would rather chase a red herring.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 1:25 PM

No one is saying stop logical environmental protection…but stop any additional bills based on this phony global warming.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 1:16 PM

In fact, it seems safe to say that this focus on CO2 is detracting from reductions in real pollutants (particularly certain heavy metals).

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM

I wonder…
I always hated labs and science projects in school — it was like fake science. Do what someone else has done, get graded on how close you get to their results. I wonder if this is related.
(I ended up with a PhD in Physics, so it wasn’t the science that bothered me.)

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:18 PM

Teaching HS science is pretty much just teaching them to think critically & give them a little background subject knowledge to boot.
At this point, these kids don’t have what it takes (most of them) to do real research. They are just not capable.
Thant’s why science fair sucks IMHO. Only the real eggheads with drive are going to do real research projects.
How many kids are really motivated to do that?

Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM

In fact, it seems safe to say that this focus on CO2 is detracting from reductions in real pollutants (particularly certain heavy metals).

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM

This is very true, and why the knee-jerk reactions to environmentalism and ‘burdensome regulation’ common to the far right are so counter-productive.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 1:28 PM

If they were serious about reducing energy use, why aren’t they promoting underground or earth sheltered houses?

darwin-t on December 1, 2009 at 1:23 PM
The most radical of the environmentalists are. But the politically mainstream ones would rather chase a red herring.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 1:25 PM

Earth ships!

Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 1:29 PM

Bear-Man-Pig lives. I’m serial.

J_Crater on December 1, 2009 at 1:29 PM

it’s the people supplying the money who are the “demanders” and the people supplying the reports who are the “suppliers.”

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

Supply and demand are actually kind of fuzzy, separated only by money. In this case, the money can be seen as the supply. When governments offer to supply money in the form of grants, researchers line up to demand it.

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:29 PM

Fortunately, the few vaguely academic minds that argue against climate change are completely unsullied by grant money from energy companies and right-wing donors. Nope, they don’t take a dime.

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

lol … that comment has been repeated like a gazillion times on leftist blogs. Must be the standard commie talking point of the day.

“Why … how dare they accept one dollar for every 10 miilion we get. That’s outrageous!”

Please show a list of the “vaguely academic minds” that argue against the scam of AGW. Include their benefactors as well please.

darwin on December 1, 2009 at 1:29 PM

Nope, they don’t take a dime.

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

See, this is why science has to be repeatable and verifiable. That eliminates the concern about bias. But when people destroy the actual data, and obfuscate their means of “correcting” data, and simply provide the “corrected” data, so that their work cannot be checked, repeated, or even analyzed, then we no longer have science — we have propaganda, and suddenly motive becomes all-important.

notropis on December 1, 2009 at 1:31 PM

If they were serious about reducing energy use, why aren’t they promoting underground or earth sheltered houses?

darwin-t on December 1, 2009 at 1:23 PM

If they were serious about reducing energy use, they would do without energy themselves, you know, to lead the way. Otherwise, people might get the wrong idea and call them nasty names, like maybe “hypocrites”. Unfortunately, liberalism is all about what somebody else must do.

mr.blacksheep on December 1, 2009 at 1:31 PM

The arguments come from an almost vindictive place, as if to stick it to liberals, causing environmental destruction and harming the health of various communities is a noble goal.

I understand that not everyone on the right feels this way, but it warrants pointing out.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 12:48 PM

More worthy of being pointed out than the smug “environmentalists” who have been out there for a decade preaching against SUVs, incandescent light bulbs, and using more than one squre of toilet tissue as if it were some sort of a mission from whatever the hell it is that tree huggers worship? Put another way, you get in a snit over realistic environmental controls but no mention of the smug prius driving culture that used the junk science of EA-CRU as proof that they were better than the rest of us because they overpaid for a crappy little car.

highhopes on December 1, 2009 at 1:32 PM

This is very true, and why the knee-jerk reactions to environmentalism and ‘burdensome regulation’ common to the far right are so counter-productive.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 1:28 PM

Now you are just making stuff up and trying to change the subject away from the fraud and lies at the CRU. I have not seen anyone, anywhere either right or left saying we should ignore the environment or go back to polluting like we have in the past. That simply is not happening.

Look over there——–> Your strawman is on fire.

Johnnyreb on December 1, 2009 at 1:34 PM

Earth ships!

Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 1:29 PM

I’ve always gotten a kick out of the idea of a bunker or missile silo house.

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:35 PM

highhopes on December 1, 2009 at 1:32 PM

Actually, lower auto emissions has merits outside of the EA-CRU dataset. The smugness is a culture problem, the opposite side of the vindictive coin i mentioned in my earlier post.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 1:35 PM

A definition of species is little more than one group of animals that is sufficiently different from other groups of animals. Enough little changes, and by definition, you have a new species.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 1:07 PM

Which doesn’t give you a Cambrian Explosion.

LibTired on December 1, 2009 at 1:36 PM

Unfortunately, they do have one thing correct — those that control the energy sources, essentially control the economy. This in and of itself is a big enough motivating factor in developing new sources of energy without fearmongering about the big Warming Boogie Man coming to get us.

Drill now, build new nuclear facilites and explore everything so that we can stop supporting regimes that want to kill us with the dollars of hardworking taxpayers. We need to be self-sufficient again. If the government would quit holding us back and let Americans be great so that America can be great again, we’d be a lot farther in the search for alternative energy than we are.

Pushing science creates faux results. Also, pollution is bad, we all know that. Who wants to breathe dirty air, eat contaminate food or live in mounds of refuse. Nothing wrong with taking care of your environment, only in trying to use fear tactics to do it.

Too bad our representatives in Washington are too concerned with themselves and their legacies to truly put the best interests of their constituents ahead of themselves.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

wordsmithy2009 on December 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM

notropis on December 1, 2009 at 1:31 PM

I agree. With their malfeasance, CRU and their ilk have ceased to be true scientific institutions. I can’t help wondering if the same doctoring of scientific data doesn’t occur for other subjects as well. e.g. evolution?

docdave on December 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM

This is very true, and why the knee-jerk reactions to environmentalism and ‘burdensome regulation’ common to the far right are so counter-productive.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 1:28 PM

Well, some of it is unnecessarily burdensome (or outright useless). In environmental politics, there is way too much forcing other people to do the heavy so that you can feel like you accomplished something.

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:39 PM

I can’t help wondering if the same doctoring of scientific data doesn’t occur for other subjects as well. e.g. evolution?

docdave on December 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM

Unlike AGW, evolution isn’t a single subject anymore. The science is so far past what the fundamentalists are willing to accept that there aren’t actually that many experts around doing active research in the area.

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:42 PM

it’s the people supplying the money who are the “demanders” and the people supplying the reports who are the “suppliers.”

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

Supply and demand are actually kind of fuzzy, separated only by money. In this case, the money can be seen as the supply. When governments offer to supply money in the form of grants, researchers line up to demand it.

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:29 PM

Right, and when I go to the liquor store effete wine shop with my money, I’m the supplier, and Jean-Jaques is the demander.

The funny thing is that the effect he documents would be perfectly — almost tautologically — correct if he’d just said “supply creates its own demand,” and explained it as the demand for a certain type of information creates a group of people willing to supply it.

I think he was just trying to be right-wing pc, and not say anything that could be construed as Keynesian as opposed to Reaganomical.

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:42 PM

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:42 PM

So, when a bum accosts you on the street, and badgers you for money, who is the supplier and who is the demander?

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:46 PM

Fortunately, the few vaguely academic minds that argue against climate change are completely unsullied by grant money from energy companies and right-wing donors. Nope, they don’t take a dime.

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

Does that mean that the proponents of AGW in the scientific community are also sullied because they take governmental money?

Or is it that in the big wide, wonderful world of the Statist, those on the Right are ALWAYS suspect and those on the Left are ALWAYS as pure as the wind driven snow?

Juno77 on December 1, 2009 at 1:47 PM

A few years ago, when I lived in Australia, there was a politician who said, inter alia, that which I am sure a majority of Australians were thinking, but said it in a way that people interpreted as ignorant and agenda-driven. Consequently, the “good bits” were contaminated and could not subsequently be discussed in a way in which both sides were rationally represented.

This is the great harm that has been done by the CRU, et. al.: Whatever merit there may be in environmentalist causes is now afflicted with the cancer of doubt that will be in the minds of rational people who understand that a major “environmental” platform was based on fraud, deception and manipulation. To the extent that this revelation will avert catastrophic legislation that will worsen the lives of millions, if not billions, of people, this is a very good thing. But there is collateral damage that can be blamed directly on Mann, Jones and the CRU.

mr.blacksheep on December 1, 2009 at 1:52 PM

by “green” they meant money.

29Victor on December 1, 2009 at 1:58 PM

mr.blacksheep on December 1, 2009 at 1:52 PM

The right can avoid making logical policy collateral damage by being reasonable and not seeing red every time someone considers environmental policy. However, few if any major commentators feel the need to pump the brakes on conservative rhetoric, so we’ll wind up with logical environmental policy as collateral damage nonetheless.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:01 PM

its the ‘burdensome regulation’ folks doing it ;-)

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 1:21 PM

So in your world, there is no such thing as too much regulation?

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:01 PM

Carbon whore Gore needs to be disgraced and jailed on fraud & conspiracy charges. Others do too, but he would be a good start.

ornery_independent on December 1, 2009 at 2:01 PM

Time to re-read the back matter in Michael Crichton’s State of Fear, isn’t it?

Owen Glendower on December 1, 2009 at 2:02 PM

Fortunately, the few vaguely academic minds that argue against climate change are completely unsullied by grant money from energy companies and right-wing donors. Nope, they don’t take a dime.

It’s utterly amazing how many liberals actually believe that the above claim makes sense, much less is a compelling argument.

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

1) Even if they were being paid by oil companies, so what?
Argue the science.
2) The oil companies by and large, are financing the global warming kooks, not the deniers.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:06 PM

So in your world, there is no such thing as too much regulation?

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:01 PM

Of course there’s such a thing as too much regulation.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:07 PM

Oh, and I always laugh at the “arguing against climate change” canard. It’s the same form of intellectual dishonesty that creates the pro- vs anti- immigration “debate”: most Americans aren’t against immigration, per se; they oppose illegal immigration.

Few people I know, or have heard, “argue against climate change”. Many (at this point I would say most) people disbelieve the man-made global warming hypothesis, the key contributors to which have now been shown to be frauds (which is not to say that AGW does or does not exist). More people still would agree that destroying the standard of living of a good proportion of the planet’s population is much too drastic a step, given a) the shaky ground on which the AGW hypothesis now seems to stand, and b) the justifiable doubt that the proposed “solutions” are any solution at all, even if one does accept the AGW premise.

mr.blacksheep on December 1, 2009 at 2:07 PM

Actually, lower auto emissions has merits outside of the EA-CRU dataset.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 1:35 PM

Only up to a point. Beyond that, it is excessive regulation.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:10 PM

Whatever his larger point it’s hard to take him seriously after this line. Aside from the fact that if it were true, no business would ever go broke, it’s the people supplying the money who are the “demanders” and the people supplying the reports who are the “suppliers.”

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

What you wrote is very foolish. Mr. Stephens in his editorial was referring to the general strategy of academic grantsmanship. I have worked in a university setting for almost 30 years and I assure you that the dynamic stated by Stephens is literally correct. Legislation is passed authorizing various government agencies to fund research about Topic X of Problem Y. Experts in disciplines associated with those topics or problems are invited to apply for these grants. It is completely routine at any major university for administrators to specifically call on faculty in a certain area to apply for such and such a federal or state grant because money is available in that particular research area. In short, the supply of government money creates an artificial demand of research effort toward this or that problem.

The economic problem you’re missing here is that the people who are paying for the research — that is, we taxpayers — are neither the ones asking for it to be done nor the ones deciding who will do it and for what pay. Milton Friedman, in Free to Choose, put it this way: when $100 of someone else’s money is up for grabs, it’s worth your spending up to $99 to get it. And that’s exactly what goes on with regard to these grants, on a massive scale.

jwolf on December 1, 2009 at 2:10 PM

The right can avoid making logical policy collateral damage by being reasonable and not seeing red every time someone considers environmental policy. However, few if any major commentators feel the need to pump the brakes on conservative rhetoric, so we’ll wind up with logical environmental policy as collateral damage nonetheless.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:01 PM

Why? because most of us see that the balance has already tipped WAY too far one way… while we were talking nicely.

Now, after all the doomsday rhetoric of the Left and their psuedo science… you want US to be nice?

Might want to tell the Environmental Liberation Front that… or is it only the Right who is supposed to be “nice”.

Romeo13 on December 1, 2009 at 2:10 PM

Of course there’s such a thing as too much regulation.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:07 PM

Then why do you claim that anyone who wants less regulation is against the environment?

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:11 PM

Which doesn’t give you a Cambrian Explosion.

LibTired on December 1, 2009 at 1:36 PM

non-sequitor of the week.
Not to mention scientifically illiterate.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:11 PM

Just think if it were the Pharmaceutical Industry that was caught systematically altering data to get thier Active Pharmaceutical Ingredient (API) approved for human consumption by the FDA.

We’d never hear the end of the “Evil Pharma Companies” from the MSM, Huffpo, other junk.

PS – Carbon is good you tree-huggers

omnipotent on December 1, 2009 at 2:12 PM

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 1:28 PM

Are you a thread subject denier?

Johan Klaus on December 1, 2009 at 2:12 PM

Whatever merit there may be in environmentalist causes is now afflicted with the cancer of doubt that will be in the minds of rational people who understand that a major “environmental” platform was based on fraud, deception and manipulation.

mr.blacksheep on December 1, 2009 at 1:52 PM

This makes three major “environmental” movements in a row that were based on fraud and deception.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:14 PM

Only up to a point. Beyond that, it is excessive regulation.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:10 PM

Its a pretty serious point, though. Auto emissions are downright terrible on the lungs.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:15 PM

The right can avoid making logical policy collateral damage by being reasonable and not seeing red every time someone considers environmental policy.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:01 PM

Once again, you demonstrate that you believe there is no such thing as too much regulation.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:15 PM

Might want to tell the Environmental Liberation Front that… or is it only the Right who is supposed to be “nice”.

Romeo13 on December 1, 2009 at 2:10 PM

I do, when I can. I work with arch liberals that make crr6 and bleedsblue look positively moderate. I’m real big on trying to move black and white people on both sides to a more shades of grey approach.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:16 PM

Its a pretty serious point, though. Auto emissions are downright terrible on the lungs.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:15 PM

At high levels yes. At low levels no.

Once again, reducing pollution is only a public good up to a certain point.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:16 PM

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:42 PM

…few vaguely academic minds…

So when Richard lindzen, MIT meterology professor speaks

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703939404574567423917025400.html

it’s to be ignored, discounted, regarded as bought?

Just like when the dean of Harvard Medical School dumped on Obamacare in the same forum.

Doorgunner on December 1, 2009 at 2:17 PM

The right can avoid making logical policy collateral damage by being reasonable and not seeing red every time someone considers environmental policy. However, few if any major commentators feel the need to pump the brakes on conservative rhetoric, so we’ll wind up with logical environmental policy as collateral damage nonetheless.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:01 PM

I think you’re generalization may reveal more about your attitude than it does about reality. Most people seem to me to be reasonable about reducing pollution, and mitigating environmental damage caused by human activity. However, you must admit that some actions, such as cutting off the water supply to hundreds of thousands of people who supply food to millions, on behalf of some fish that may or may not become extinct regardless, or encouraging the use of food for fuel while people starve, can seem extreme to moderate people who might otherwise support sensible efforts to accommodate so-called “environmental” concerns. The hysterical shrillness over AGW, and the subsequent revelation of fraud, has not helped people who are concerned with the “environment”. Regular people react badly when they find they have been manipulated.

mr.blacksheep on December 1, 2009 at 2:17 PM

can’t help wondering if the same doctoring of scientific data doesn’t occur for other subjects as well. e.g. evolution?

docdave on December 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM

sure is the same cult-like atmosphere and the same pressure against anyone who dares disagree….ie sternberg..

right4life on December 1, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Once again, you demonstrate that you believe there is no such thing as too much regulation.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:15 PM

There’s a difference between reasoned opposition and reflexive, knee-jerk opposition. I thought my using ‘seeing red’ was an allusion to that, but I guess I should’ve been clearer.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:17 PM

However, you must admit that some actions, such as cutting off the water supply to hundreds of thousands of people who supply food to millions, on behalf of some fish that may or may not become extinct regardless, or encouraging the use of food for fuel while people starve, can seem extreme to moderate people who might otherwise support sensible efforts to accommodate so-called “environmental” concerns.

mr.blacksheep on December 1, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Of course. It’s black and white, knee-jerk thinking that’s the enemy of decent policy, not a given ideology.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:19 PM

There’s a difference between reasoned opposition and reflexive, knee-jerk opposition. I thought my using ’seeing red’ was an allusion to that, but I guess I should’ve been clearer.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:17 PM

I understood the seeing red reference, it was the rest of your post where you implied that anyone who objected to any environmental regulation fell into the “seeing red” category. Nor is this the first time you have made such insinuations.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:23 PM

Because the data may have been faked or even completely falsified doesn’t mean that we should not be taking actions (not necessarily legislation, but concerted efforts) to produce less gas and pollution and waste.

scalleywag on December 1, 2009 at 1:12 PM

In other words:

They faked the whole thing. So what.

BobMbx on December 1, 2009 at 2:28 PM

so we’ll wind up with logical environmental policy as collateral damage nonetheless.

ernesto on December 1, 2009 at 2:01 PM

There is no such thing most of the time.
Since I ranch with my husband for a living, we have earned the title of environmentalist.
I know what excessive regulation does to a business that depends upon the land.
I am guessing you have no clue.
Come & get your hands dirty. Come & see what in the hell we’ve all been putting up with for years while snactimonious do-gooders preach to the choir about how to manage the land.

EPA rules are rarely about science. They are about grabbing power, grabbing assets from those of us who have them.
The EPA is now going to regulate dust bcs they have concluded it is pollution.
They will therefore, as an unelected body, have the power to tell me what to do with my land & will have no reason to give me any compensation or bailout when this regulation of dust comes forward.
Govt agencies in general, when regulating businesses such as agriculture are all about power grabs.
It’s one thing to stop the rape & pillage of public lands & the pollution of rivers etc.
It’s quite another to descend into the madness that is the USDA ,EPA etc.
Walk a mile in my shoes, friend.

Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 2:32 PM

Nor is this the first time you have made such insinuations.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:23 PM

I have seen this also.

Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 2:33 PM

The Associated Press has carried an announcement from UEA that Dr. Phil Jones has stepped down pending an investigation of hyping global warming:

LONDON (AP) — Britain’s University of East Anglia says the director of its prestigious Climatic Research Unit is stepping down pending an investigation into allegations that he overstated the case for man-made climate change.

crosspatch on December 1, 2009 at 2:33 PM

Whatever merit there may be in environmentalist causes is now afflicted with the cancer of doubt that will be in the minds of rational people who understand that a major “environmental” platform was based on fraud, deception and manipulation.

mr.blacksheep on December 1, 2009 at 1:52 PM

No rational person could ever have “believed” in something so preposterous as “catastrophic man-made global warming.”

How will the exposition of data manipulation and forgery make any significant difference to people who already believe the AGW canard?

July 10 on December 1, 2009 at 2:37 PM

crosspatch on December 1, 2009 at 2:33 PM

In other words, as soon as the white wash finishes drying, he’ll pick up where he left off.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:38 PM

It did not take Ernesto long to hi-jack this thead.

Johan Klaus on December 1, 2009 at 2:39 PM

crosspatch on December 1, 2009 at 2:33 PM

Arrgh, another whitewash by the AP, not your fault of course. Jones’s crime is not “overstating the case for man-made climate change.” That is just stating an opinion, and perfectly legitimate, whether right or wrong. His crimes are deliberately falsifying data and abetting others doing the same; and conspiring with others to block publication of competing points of view.

jwolf on December 1, 2009 at 2:39 PM

So, IF just for example, we’re pulling hydrocarbons out of the ground (energy the earth has stored) and converting it up here topside into FOR EXAMPLE 100 terrawatts of energy.

Now the AGW crowd demands that we stop this and switch to wind. Ok, so we extract 100 terrawatts out of wind.Which is gonna have a greater effect on CLIMATE?

Reducing wind velocities, causing localized droughts where none should rightly exist, the stumbling effect that causes upper atmosphere winds to be pulled to lower altitudes, which in turn affects cloud formation rates and in some cases causes localized flooding where none should be.Which is the greater change to CLIMATE????

I’ve always thought of the earth as a large solar collector that powers a machine who’s sole function is to clear an area of the solar system of heavy materials and organize those materials into an efficient energy storage device. Oil seems to be the direct result of the collection of solar energy and its distillation into a more efficient and transportable form. It makes sense to me to use it. Wind is a part of our climate, if we start messing with the wind, doesn’t anyone think it’ll be more devastating to CLIMATE than extracting the pure concentrated energy already stored?

Jason Coleman on December 1, 2009 at 2:41 PM

Walk a mile in my shoes, friend.

Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 2:32 PM

And do not forget about that dear snail darter.

Johan Klaus on December 1, 2009 at 2:43 PM

I am still deeply concerned on the affects of AGW on the Loch Ness monster, Big Foot, and the shrinking unicorn population.

Don’t get me wrong. I do believe that if we destroy ENOUGH jobs and swap out ENOUGH lightbulbs, we can come together as a nation and change the thermal output of the sun.

kurtzz3 on December 1, 2009 at 2:43 PM

ernesto, if any environmental policy cannot be justified by cost-benefit analysis in hard numbers, it should not be implemented, and anyone attempting to implement it should be indicted for conspiracy to commit fraud.

SDN on December 1, 2009 at 2:44 PM

I have always contended that true believers in the hoax should be consistent and live in mud huts near rivers and wash their cloths by beating it on rocks.

Instead, they want to fly around in G5s and take my money to promote their pet causes.

Jail terms for all of them!

Bleed_thelizard on December 1, 2009 at 3:00 PM

Phil Jones stepping down pending investigation:

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/uk-climate-scientist-to-221080.html

Chris of Rights on December 1, 2009 at 3:05 PM

Does this mean that we can now use regular incandescent bulbs again? Oh wait, I forgot that those will be outlawed as of 2012.

Stock up now kids, or else you get to use the expensive, not-really-energy-saving, poisonous mercury-laced CFL’s.

Repeal THAT law, now!

J.J. Sefton on December 1, 2009 at 3:09 PM

No rational person could ever have “believed” in something so preposterous as “catastrophic man-made global warming.”

July 10 on December 1, 2009 at 2:37 PM

I tend to agree with you there. It has always been difficult for me to reconcile the claimed accuracy of the prediction of the decades-in-the-future “average temperature”, whatever that may mean, with what would have to be the mathematics of the predicting models. It’s even harder now that the chaotic state of the computer codes needed to generate the predictions is known.

mr.blacksheep on December 1, 2009 at 3:14 PM

The baying of the hounds is getting louder.

Gee, squashing contrary arguments.

I’m shocked, shocked I tell you.

Not.

CPT. Charles on December 1, 2009 at 3:15 PM

it’s the people supplying the money who are the “demanders” and the people supplying the reports who are the “suppliers.”

Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM

the article touched on this. The money supplying “demanders” are the climate change alarmists and the “suppliers” give them “science” which keeps the money flowing. Works out quite well.

Daemonocracy on December 1, 2009 at 3:25 PM

Ok I need to point out something that’s been bugging me alot and I have yet to see it commented on….

These AGW types are always shutting disagreeable scientists out of the debate by insisting that only “peer reviewed” work has any credibility. On this point, I’d like to note that the EA CRU conclusions are, by definition, NOT peer reviewed. Stay with me here….

They now say that they lost the original data. Ok, let’s think about that. If the data was peer reviewed before it was lost, who peer reviewed it? Do those people still have the copies of the original data? Surely someone has asked this question before, and if the answer was that peer review occured then reconstructing the original data (or just getting it from the reviewer) should be a simple exercise. But that’s not what happened here. If a peer review happened, we would already know who did it and we would already have the raw data.

No, in this case, they KNEW no one else had the data. Why else would they claim they lost it in the move? They knew they would get away with it, and unless anyone can point out to me WHO reviewed it and what THEY did with the raw data, my conclusion stands. They were NEVER peer reviewed.

runawayyyy on December 1, 2009 at 3:29 PM

First green shoots, now green jobs, seems that everything that is “green” nowadays is fake.

Angry Dumbo on December 1, 2009 at 3:32 PM

Because the data may have been faked or even completely falsified doesn’t mean that we should not be taking actions (not necessarily legislation, but concerted efforts) to produce less gas and pollution and waste.
scalleywag on December 1, 2009 at 1:12 PM

So extortion is okay as long as it gets the right results?

I have a Prius because it’s cheaper on gas and I want to choke off Middle Eastern oil. I’m very conscious about limiting the energy and waste my household produces because a) it’s cheaper and b) no sane person wants to live in a polluted environment.

Most people do make concerted efforts. You just don’t know about it, those who scream the loudest, the phony celebs and crooked politicians, are the ones who drive the biggest cars, use private jets and have multiple estates consuming vast amounts of energy needlessly.

PoodleSkirt on December 1, 2009 at 3:45 PM

Now that Jones has stepped down at the CRC maybe we can get rid of Hanson at Goddard and a few more of the nutcases. As far as Gore is concerned he should be required to take (and pass) a high school course in basic science.

duff65 on December 1, 2009 at 3:45 PM

dear snail darter.

Johan Klaus on December 1, 2009 at 2:43 PM

Thank God there’s none on my property.
I think you need rain for them-of which we have had very little over the last 10 yrs.

Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 3:54 PM

I have a Prius because it’s cheaper on gas and I want to choke off Middle Eastern oil. I’m very conscious about limiting the energy and waste my household produces because a) it’s cheaper and b) no sane person wants to live in a polluted environment.

Most people do make concerted efforts. You just don’t know about it, those who scream the loudest, the phony celebs and crooked politicians, are the ones who drive the biggest cars, use private jets and have multiple estates consuming vast amounts of energy needlessly.

PoodleSkirt on December 1, 2009 at 3:45 PM

Considering how much oil really comes from them, the effort is sweet, but probably mostly ineffective.
If you want to stay off Mid East oil, research the companies that don’t deal in it & buy from them.
For instance: Tesoro.
Their oil comes from the Williston basin & I know when I buy their gas, I’m helping to support the economy up here on the High Plains.

Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 3:55 PM

If reducing CO2 was truly their aim then they would embrace nuclear energy … instead, all they want is inefficient wind and solar power a return to primitivism.

darwin on December 1, 2009 at 1:20 PM

Sharke on December 1, 2009 at 4:00 PM

**BREAKING**Drudge is reporting that Penn State University is going to investigate Michael Mann.

Michael E. Mann (born 28 December 1965) is an American climatologist, and author of more than 80 peer-reviewed journal publications. He has attained public prominence as lead author of a number of articles on paleoclimate and as one of the originators of a graph of temperature trends dubbed the “hockey stick graph” for the shape of the graph. The graph received both praise and criticism after its publication in an Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report.

In August 2005 he was appointed Associate Professor at Pennsylvania State University, in the Department of Meteorology and Earth and Environmental Systems Institute, and Director of the university’s interdepartmental Earth System Science Center. He previously taught at the University of Virginia, in the Department of Environmental Sciences (1999 – 2005).

Exit question: Will UVA investigate him as well for work he did while in Charlottesville?

ted c on December 1, 2009 at 4:18 PM

Jason Coleman on December 1, 2009 at 2:41 PM

This is something I’ve thought about before – it seems very obvious that extracting our energy needs from the wind is just as or more likely to affect the climate system as releasing CO2, yet when was the last time you heard of a climate scientist constructing a computer model of wind farms and their affect on air currents? Ditto for wave energy and ocean currents. The number of turbines require to power a single city would be astronomical and you can’t tell me these wouldn’t have an affect on a highly chaotic system – think of the “butterfly affect.”

Their reluctance to consider such consequences suggests that they are less motivated by the consequences of climate change than they are by the potential profits to be made from switching from one energy source to another.

Sharke on December 1, 2009 at 4:20 PM

I am always amazed that no environmentalist is ever relieved to hear that there may be no disaster in the making. Doesn’t that say a lot about motivation?

mbabbitt on December 1, 2009 at 4:22 PM

Department of Environmental Sciences
University of Virginia
Clark Hall
291 McCormick Road
P.O. Box 400123
Charlottesville, VA 22904-4123

Phone number: (434) 924-7761

FAX number: (434) 982-2137
will Mike Mann’s work at UVA be investigated?

ted c on December 1, 2009 at 4:22 PM

A definition of species is little more than one group of animals that is sufficiently different from other groups of animals. Enough little changes, and by definition, you have a new species.

MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 1:07 PM

Interesting theory. Too bad there’s no evidence of that ever happening.

fossten on December 1, 2009 at 4:24 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3