Byzantium and Constantinople are the same place. The Crusaders kept it going by overthrowing it in 1204 and killing their fellow Christians. So both catastrophic and the main achievement of the Crusades? Wow.

Didn’t they teach you that “Byzantium” is commonly used to refer generally to the civilization of the Eastern Roman Empire? Byzantium the place was a Greek town that existed near the site of the later city of Constantinople.

And, yes, the sack and temporary capture of Constantinople by the crusaders after the Venetians diverted the Fourth Crusade was catastrophic. And, yes, preservation of Byzantine civilization until the fifteenth century was the main achievement of the crusades.

The Greek churchmen that the Crusaders killed. Pope John Paul II apologized for it.

The Crusaders did indeed kill Greeks aplenty, layman and churchman alike. And this was a travesty. But the Greeks they killed in 1204 were not the same Greeks that fled to the west laden with priceless documents after the fall of Constantinople in 1453. And I can’t help but notice that your sympathy for murdered Greek Orthodox does not seem to extend to the victims of the Turkish government in modern times.

You don’t mention any of the Muslim documents or ideas that also led to the Renaissance, but I suppose that doesn’t fit your narrative.

Much of the surviving classical learning did indeed filter into Western thought from Islamic sources via Spain, but most of this happened much earlier and were generally in the form of Arabic translations. There weren’t many Westerners who could even have read the Greek originals until after Constantinople fell.

You’re right about the nation states, but you fail to mention the Pope who did nothing to stop any atrocities and had influence enough to at least do something.

Which pope? Urban II, or all of the popes and antipopes that passed through Rome and Avignon during the following centuries of the Crusading era? The papacy declined in power during this period so dramatically that it was practically impotent. What do you suppose the popes had influence enough to do? They couldn’t even get themselves out of the Babylonian captivity in France.

We could debate all day about whether or not they would have invaded Europe again after what happened at Tours. I doubt it, but there is no proof either way.

Nonsense. They continued their attack on the West even after seizing Constantinople until they were finally halted at the gates of Vienna. So they did in fact invade Europe again in the fifteenth century – and they are doing so now, moving into the vacuum created by the disintegration of Western Civilization. If this is not somehow reversed, it is quite possible that your great-granddaughter may be stoned to death for some minor immodesty. If you have the stomach for it, you can see Islam in action here: WARNING: NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH.
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm

And that’s what we’re really talking about. Do we want to live in that culture or not? Islam is intent on spreading worldwide, and doing nothing will not keep Islam out. How do these barbarisms jive with your liberal worldview? Unless you can explain how they harmonize, your bickering over the details of my analysis is nothing more than sophistry.

History major from a Catholic college who has read multiple books on the subject, and has taken classes about the crusades, but nice try.

My apologies; based on your prior posts I assumed that you had attended the West Texas School of Veterinary. Hippie.

OMG.

Venusian Visitor on December 3, 2009 at 10:53 AM

Hippie? That’s your cutting insult? But sure, let’s take your arguments one step at a time.

Botched and flawed as the execution of the Crusades were, they managed to keep Byzantium going until 1453.

the catastrophic diversion of the Fourth Crusade to Constantinople.

Byzantium and Constantinople are the same place. The Crusaders kept it going by overthrowing it in 1204 and killing their fellow Christians. So both catastrophic and the main achievement of the Crusades? Wow.

benefit from the texts brought by Greek churchman and scholars. Those texts included, among many other priceless documents, most of the writings of Aristotle that have survived.

The Greek churchmen that the Crusaders killed. Pope John Paul II apologized for it. Also the Crusaders burned quite a few of those documents when they invaded.

The infusion of these documents into the West brought about the Italian Renaissance, and that brought us all kinds of wonderful things like great scientific advances and the beginnings of the secular humanism that you hold so dear.

This is fairly accurate. You don’t mention any of the Muslim documents or ideas that also led to the Renaissance, but I suppose that doesn’t fit your narrative.

The Crusades were botched because the West was only half-civilized at the time. There was no central authority that could control the Crusading forces so as to prevent the tragedy of the Children’s Crusade and the catastrophic diversion of the Fourth Crusade to Constantinople.

You’re right about the nation states, but you fail to mention the Pope who did nothing to stop any atrocities and had influence enough to at least do something.

We would live in a radically different world had the Crusades not been attempted. Islam could very well have destroyed Western civilization in the eleventh century rather than the twenty-first, and you would now be praying on a rug somewhere facing Mecca without a thought in your head.

Pure speculation. We could debate all day about whether or not they would have invaded Europe again after what happened at Tours. I doubt it, but there is no proof either way.

And, seriously, you should have a better understanding of History than you can get out of Wikipedia before you hold yourself out as an expert. Hippie.

History major from a Catholic college who has read multiple books on the subject, and has taken classes about the crusades, but nice try.

It’s funny how none of us ever said we hated muslims.

What about you little friend asking me this:

so why do you hate israel and the jews so?

When did I say I hate Jews?

Venusian Visitor on December 3, 2009 at 10:53 AM

right4life on December 3, 2009 at 1:06 PM

As an amateur, voracious reader of history-
I salute your wasted efforts on the trolls who are muslim apologists.
It’s funny how none of us ever said we hated muslims.
Our hate is inferred by them simply bcs we point out the voilent & intolerant nature of muslims’ civilzation destroying ‘religion’ called Islam.

HeroesforGhosts on December 3, 2009 at 9:15 AM

if it wasn’t for the crusades, you’d be wearing a long robe, or a burkha…dumba**

HeroesforGhosts on December 3, 2009 at 9:15 AM

It didn’t end in a stalemate, hippie, the West lost. But that doesn’t mean that an attempt to retake formerly Christian territory conquered by Islam wasn’t worth the effort.

Botched and flawed as the execution of the Crusades were, they managed to keep Byzantium going until 1453. By 1453 the barbarian West had become much more literate and was ready to benefit from the texts brought by Greek churchman and scholars. Those texts included, among many other priceless documents, most of the writings of Aristotle that have survived.

The infusion of these documents into the West brought about the Italian Renaissance, and that brought us all kinds of wonderful things like great scientific advances and the beginnings of the secular humanism that you hold so dear.

None of this would have happened if Constantinople fell in the eleventh century. The West had, after the fall of Rome, declined to the point where literacy was almost completely extinguished. Charlemagne managed to stop the decline in 800, but real advances did not begin in the West until the twelfth century.

The Crusades were botched because the West was only half-civilized at the time. There was no central authority that could control the Crusading forces so as to prevent the tragedy of the Children’s Crusade and the catastrophic diversion of the Fourth Crusade to Constantinople. Given what they had to work with, which was more like local gang lords than organized nation-states, the Crusades went about as well as could be expected.

Flawed, absolutely. Useless, absolutely not. We would live in a radically different world had the Crusades not been attempted. Islam could very well have destroyed Western civilization in the eleventh century rather than the twenty-first, and you would now be praying on a rug somewhere facing Mecca without a thought in your head.

And, seriously, you should have a better understanding of History than you can get out of Wikipedia before you hold yourself out as an expert. Hippie.

Violence aside, the qur’an tells us how to run the justice system, how to punish crimes, how to settle inheritance. what part of our wealth to give to allah; in his time Moe took care of allah’s cut.

Until Islam is dealt with for what it is, a cult based socio-political system whose objective is world domination, the problems it presents can never be successfully addressed.

THANK GOD FOR THE CRUSADES!!

right4life on December 2, 2009 at 5:47 PM

Sure, because nothing says awesome like a series of useless wars that resulted in mass death and a stalemate. Oh and when all the kids died in the children’s crusade, that was pretty cool too. And hey, remember when the crusaders slaughtered a whole bunch of Jews and Orthodox Christians in Europe? That must have been good as well. Don’t let historical facts get in they way of your hatred of Muslims or anything. Moron.

Church bells ringing through the valley! Lighting up the sky with fireworks at midnight! Obvious displays of Christian dominance! This should be outlawed!

dave742 on December 2, 2009 at 4:02 PM

you are such trash.

Since the Islamic revolution, Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian,
and Bahai minorities have suffered varying degrees of
discrimination, particularly in the area of employment and
education. Universities require applicants to pass “character
tests” in which officials analyze the background and ideology
of each applicant with their local religious authorities and
neighborhood groups. This process has allowed the state to
screen against those who were critical of the government’s
revolutionary policy. The government also requires applicants
to pass a test in Islamic theology, circumscribing the access
of most religious minorities to higher education. Applicants for
public sector employment are similarly required to meet certain
standards of adherence to Islamic orthodoxy.

link

This guy went to Iran carrying a giant cross and didn’t have too many issues. This guy did the same and had the same result. His Iran experiance used to be online. but now you have to get the book to read about it.

dave742 on December 2, 2009 at 2:34 PM

oh yes I can see why this ‘guy’ would be allowed to carry the cross…

Each day we would ask the Lord to show us where and when to carry the cross. All in all, I had the glorious privilege of carrying the cross more that eighty miles! As we entered the first village, some little girls came running after us and presented us with roses just outside the mosque! In many places we were asked to pray for the sick. When asked about the cross, we would tell them that we have come to apologize for the way “Christians” had used the cross against the Muslims in the Crusades.

gee what a surprise!! and they had a ‘guide/interpreter’ isn’t that nice? oh yes another iranian/muslim apologist, just like you!!

this ‘guy’ is a real piece of trash.

THANK GOD FOR THE CRUSADES!!

My mother-in-law is Jewish, and I know many Jews. I do not need a tank to talk to them.

dave742 on December 2, 2009 at 2:16 PM

so why do you hate israel and the jews so? you support iran and their drive to get a bomb, and the iranians want to eliminate the jews and israel.

I don’t think it’s bordering on racism… yet. xax on December 2, 2009 at 2:45 PM

Discrimination on a religious basis (which this is NOT) has nothing to do with racism.
Being a muslim is not being part of a particular race.
It has nothing to do with race.

dave742 on December 2, 2009 at 4:02 PM

Mentioning the few token celebrations these countries allow for publicity purposes does not change the fact that they are brutal, intolerant conquerors of Christians & Jews.
The saying “First comes Saturday, then comes Sunday” is alive and well in muslim nations.
You will be among the first wave of dhimmis caught up in the tide of subjugation, if it ever happens here.

dave742 on December 2, 2009 at 2:16 PM

Why are all hippies exactly alike? All this Muslim love, but if they decide to colonize your precious little suburb or trendy urban neighborhood, then it’s all NIMBY.

When the Muslims get militant here in the USA, like they already have in Europe, it will be the poor people who suffer most – the ones who can’t afford the rent where you live.

Liberals should just stop pretending to give a damn about the poor and oppressed. Those are the people who take it right on the chin so you can feel morally superior while nestling in your book discussions groups and country clubs.

Hypocrites.

Iran’s minority Christians celebrated the New Year on Tuesday by converging on churches at midday to light candles and pray for a prosperous year, hours after ushering in 2008 with colorful midnight fireworks.

The tents of thousands of pilgrims dot the hillside, the air is heavy with the scent of incense, and the sounds of the church bell toll across the valley.

Church bells ringing through the valley! Lighting up the sky with fireworks at midnight! Obvious displays of Christian dominance! This should be outlawed!

Ringing bells!! That should be outlawed! It’s noise pollution! They are trying to project their dominance with noise!

For those who do not, we trust our law-enforcement agencies to deal specifically with lawbreaking rather than conduct purges based on religious affiliation, which is how the Swiss should have left it.

That would be correct if it was for the fact that countries in Europe are often too politically correct to take the proper action. Heck, we can see traces of it over here with the Fort Hood incident.

I’m trying to be honest. Everyone, even the Muslims, know that there is a BIG problem with Muslim extremists. These same people use their religion to validate what they do. These people exist in Muslim society. However, if you dare to mention that specific threat, you are met with charges of racism, religious intolerance, etc. And authorities (politicians and lawmen alike) are too frightened by lawsuits to pursue anything. This is why I believe you have such frustration amongst Europeans.

This minaret thing was stupid, I’ll admit. But if nearly 60% of the people were willing to vote for it, that sends a clear signal of where a lot of people are in Switzerland regarding Muslims. I don’t think it’s bordering on racism… yet. But Swiss politicians need to get more serious about dealing with Muslim extremists within their borders. No more PC BS. If they do not address the real issue- this ridiculous notion of Sharia law in freaking Switzerland- then they will have an out and out race war.

so tell me, when was the last time you were in saudi arabia or iran?

This guy went to Iran carrying a giant cross and didn’t have too many issues. This guy did the same and had the same result. His Iran experiance used to be online. but now you have to get the book to read about it.

dave742 on December 2, 2009 at 2:16 PM

So given an understanding of the Koran, do you not understand what the full goal of this ‘religion’ is?
Muslims will be nice to you bcs they want to convert you.
Just like evangelists, baptists, etc.
But the similarity ends there.
Under full muslim rule, you will treated like they think of you in private: a slave or dead.
It is perfectly clear what is written in the Koran: they will LIE TO YOU bcs it’s OK since you are an infidel.
They will talk nicey nice to you all day long.
But the moment your back is turned, you are a filthy infidel who must be subdued, converted, or killed.
I cannot make it any clearer than this.
Muslims in this country should not be disallowed to practice their religion, just like Satanists are not.
But once they start enforcing the rules of their Koran: that should be it.
There will be no caliphate, or anything close to it, ever established in this country.
Which is why immigrants need to assimilate by becoming citizens, taking an oath of allegiance to their new country or they can get the hell out & go back to where they came from.
Western countries have a right to demand this.

The Swiss betrayed people still alive, provable and documented. Some of the people that did the betraying, hands on, are still alive. That is the difference.

Even still I don’t accept that this forfeits their right to self-defense or that it doesn’t involve the rest of us. If Muslims were looking to take over Switerland – instead of all of Europe, the US, Brazil, Russia and others – then it might be a matter of indifference.

This problem has nothing to do with supposed antisemites in the muslim world

But Iraq’s role in the Holocaust is also within living memory and I’d imagine some of the people involved are still alive. It was a contemporary event (to WWII) to go along with the historical examples.

To me, the interesting thing about that betrayal is that it was done by people who have presented to the world the image that they are the most peaceful, honest, and trustworthy of all of us.

I don’t know how you got that impression. Nazi gold held in Swiss banks is notorious. Also it’s been my experience that most people consider neutraliy to be a little weasally, particularly from a country smack dab in the middle of Europe which has had so many wars.

Though I think that a lot of people are so sick of socialist countries that they are glad fo Switzerland for that reason.

“do you visit jewish communities in a tank, or do you just wear your swastika?”
My mother-in-law is Jewish, and I know many Jews. I do not need a tank to talk to them.

I have, and have friends that have. Either we are visiting different people, or it’s something about you that is the problem. Under what conditions do you visit these communities? In a tank?

dave742 on December 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM

You have visited muslim communities in Iran, Iraq? Afghanistan? Minneapolis? Detroit?
Do you do so as a muslim yourself? Or as an unbeliever?
Do you not know that the Koran justifies the lying to infidels while under their rule?
Do you not understand that their ‘religion’ mandates that under their rule, you will either convert, reduce yourself to dhimmi status, or die?
What do you nto understand about this intolerant, violent political ideology?
I know muslims myself. They are very nice to me. They are very kind.
Have you been to the muslim ghettos of France?
I have no problems with a muslim, as long as they are not trying to subjigate me, convert me, or kill me.
When they live among unbelievers, they go along their merry way.
Read their holy book & you find the ‘religion’s’ true purpose is to destroy the existing govt & enforce a caliphate.
It may take many generations for this to happen, and they all work toward this goal in small ways.
The minarets are just one of many ways they use in order to enfore their goal.
And I’m well aware not all muslims think a worldwide caliphate should be enforced.
But they won’t stop it.
There are not enough moderate muslims that actually say or do anything to turn this tide around.
Bottom line-Islam is no religion.
You cannot fully believe in the Koran and live in a freedom loving society without trying to destroy it.
No matter how moderate a muslim you may be, being moderate will get you killed by your fellow muslims.
So kibbitz away here all you wish.
The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of ‘religions’ that mask themselves as such in order to gain power.
This is one of those.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

vicarious on December 2, 2009 at 12:33 PM

thats right!! THANK GOD FOR THE CRUSADES!!

and people like Charles Martel, and the monks of St. John..