Howard Dean: The debate on capitalism and socialism is over
posted at 12:55 pm on December 1, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Rarely will you see an American politician speak in such a vapid and meaningless manner than does Howard Dean in this brief clip from last April, speaking to a small group in Paris. It’s hard to know where to start with this nonsense, so let’s go in reverse order of idiocy:
Barack Obama speaks for his generation … the first to do so since JFK? Actually, Democrats argued that Bill Clinton spoke for Baby Boomers, which was his generation — and with more substance. The two Bushes spoke to the political establishment, but the Clintons supposedly represented the apex of the Boomers, of which Obama is certainly a member as well. Sharp and charismatic, Bill Clinton also proved more politically adept and flexible than Obama has thus far. The Democrats may try to continue their JFK fetish, but it makes them look even sillier than the incessant Reagan references on the Right. Conservatives have more or less followed Reagan’s policy lead for the past 30 years, even while Republicans have veered away from them, while Democrats like Howard Dean and Barack Obama have run away from JFK’s muscular approach to foreign policy and his free-market bent on economics.
The same applies to Dean’s credit-grabbing for “the permanent campaign.” James Carville started the permanent campaign in 1992. Dean’s contention that Democrats always lost elections because they took three years off is laughable on its face, as they held the White House for most of the 1990s. Democrats also managed to hang onto control of the House for almost the entirety of the Cold War before either Carville or Dean came along.
But the silliest notion of Dean’s patter is that somehow we’ve just come to the conclusion that the US is going to have both capitalism and socialism. That has been true in the US at least since 1933 and FDR’s New Deal. It became even more true during LBJ’s “Great Society” efforts. We have had a mix of socialism funded by capitalism for several decades, and not coincidentally, we have the national debt to show for it. The debate now is whether we want corporatism in the finance, energy, and health-care fields, which will be an entree to complete government control of those industries in the long term, or whether we want to pursue the free-market solutions that actually create and expand prosperity. Dean may want to say that the science argument is settled, but as the polls show, it’s not only far from over, but the Democrats and statists finally seem to be losing it.
Blowback
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It’s not the govt’s job to build schools. It’s the local community’s responsibility & a parent’s responsibility to get their kids educated.
Socialism breeds dependency.
You can make cracks about what I read all you want.
Your ignorance on the parasitic nature of taxes & govt intervention & intrusion into people’s lives is astounding.
You lost any credibility with me today the moment you uttered Bush.
How ’bout all those other things I mentioned? Hmm? Obama? Congress? Clinton? FDR’s failed onstrous policies?
Past Congresses? The decay of the justice system?
The destruction of the gold standard?
I read more history than most on this site bcs of my genealogy work.
I have a hearty appreciation for freedom.
As a socialist or communist or whatever you are, you clearly demonstrate your profound ignorance of the principles of a Republic and its intentions to keep man responsible for his own welfare.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 2:43 PM
Remember, everyone, only 20-25% of Americans call themselves liberal.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 2:44 PM
Opening line at next DNC convention:
“We have always been at war with America…”
BobMbx on December 1, 2009 at 2:45 PM
You’re an utter dunce. Taxation for the benefit of a community, state and a defense for the nation is not socialism.
The fact that government is a necessary evil, and that taxes must be paid to keep it functioning does not imply that government must steal money and take over every segment of society. Government is inherently corrupt, and the bigger the government is, the more corrupt it becomes.
Only a student of revised history would see otherwise. Only someone in deep denial about human nature would see government as benevolent. Only someone who hates to see the hard work of people rewarded likes government. Only someone who has no faith in themselves sees the state as a savior rather than what it can and will become if not tethered … an oppressor.
darwin on December 1, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Once a person has convinced himself that giving away other people’s money makes him feel better about himself, he will ALWAYS want to do more of that.
Every other addiction in the world is self-limiting to one extent or another: drink too much and your liver turns into a hockey puck; do too much cocain and your heart explodes.
When a crack addict promises you that he knows when to quit, he is usually lying. It is possible that he has finally hit rock bottom, and discovered a pain that outweighs the high.
But every liberal who says he knows when to stop is ALWAYS lying. Every single time. That’s because the liberal never hits rock bottom himself; it is always the society he lives in that pays the price.
Turns out the expression “give ’til it hurts” only applies when it’s YOUR OWN MONEY you are being generous with.
logis on December 1, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Excellent post. But…
You’re talking to a lib. Their concept of logic is what they want to be right, not what is. You will rarely change one of their minds. I mean, if you mention 9/11, the lib will call up the Crusades. And America was undiscovered at that time!
To suggest, since I’ve seen your posts many times and find you’re a reasonable American, rarely shoot back at a lib. Just an idea, please, to keep your thoughtfulness aimed at the rest of us who are genuinely paying attention.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 2:49 PM
The debate SHOULD be over. History has proven over and over again that socialism doesn’t work and rapidly impoverishs people.
Another point, I am a year younger than Obama and he certainly doesn’t speak for me or most of the people I know. I grew up in the 70s and I sure as heck remember the disasterous Carter administration with it’s lines at the gas station and the news filled with the hostage crisis.
Obama is even worse. Is there anything at all that he’s competent at or has accomplished? Anything?
Common Sense on December 1, 2009 at 2:50 PM
That’s more an argument against this particualar trend in education. Even a one-room schoolhouse could have been part of a “mixed economy.” My father went to school on the GI bill, I went to public schools all my life and my son’s at a public college. Seems like all three of us benefited from a “mixed economy”. And we’re all doing OK.
I’m against self esteem classes, I was not aware that basic math was considered “racist” — indeed, the newest trend is to double down on basic math for poor and minority kids — and Elders never advocated teaching wankery to six-year-olds (she said:”I think that it is part of human sexuality, and perhaps it should be taught.”)
But you’re right, we do want to impose fascist communism on everyone and create a new Stalinist state where everyone will serve the politburo by driving the interstate highway system and accepting Medicare when you’re 65.
Oh, and we’re taxing your ammo to pay for health care.
Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Don’t get all twisted up here…..just keep this in mind:
THEY are losing. Again.
And, these 11 words:
Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?
Ask yourself that everyday until Nov 2010, and 2012. If you ever answer “yes”, seek treatment.
BobMbx on December 1, 2009 at 2:50 PM
In the interest of “truth in advertising,” the Democratic Party should adopt, or be known as; The National Socialist Party.”
Why pretend otherwise?
Star20 on December 1, 2009 at 2:55 PM
Entirely appropriate that he’s speaking at the Cafe “Red.”
rivlax on December 1, 2009 at 2:56 PM
Well, you lost credibility with me when you said “gold standard.” Sure sign of a loony and possible a Ron Paul supporter.
I have a question, how is the community going to build and support the school? I can’t remeber all the things you type — I’m trolling over at Malkin, too.
But if you look at the numbers, FDR’s new deal was a smashing success — with employment dropping and GDP up substantially every year but one even before the war.
Clinton? Clinton=BOOOOOSH except, you know, that the stock market, median income and unemployment rate were all higher when he left office than when he entered, and the budget — the product of his “mixed economy” — was in surplus.
What else?
Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 2:56 PM
1) There has never been pure unfettered capitalism in this country. Why do you believe that asking people to look after themselves is such a bad idea?
2) What the h#ll is this bottom up socialism? Outside the family unit there is no such thing. Socialism is always top down, by definition.
MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:57 PM
Then I guess we should start using it then.
Thanks for the heads up.
darwin on December 1, 2009 at 2:58 PM
OH brother! What stupidity will we get next?
petunia on December 1, 2009 at 2:58 PM
It amazes me how many times a single liberal will drag out the same old, discredited arguments as if this was still the first time.
MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:59 PM
Good grief … you goz to publik skools?
darwin on December 1, 2009 at 3:01 PM
Clinton represented baby boomers. Obama represents baby molesters and what state better personifies baby molesting than Vermont? Even worse, Vermont is the home of Howard Dean.
MaiDee on December 1, 2009 at 3:06 PM
Not quite. I worked as a stockboy in a shoe store and paid for my college. I had a car, for which my dad co-signed the loan. I covered everything, by what my dad taught me to do, the man having grown during the Depression your hero FDR caused to last longer.
According to your ‘socialist’ brand of America, my dad worked so hard he made too much money for me to qualify for a loan. So, by his values, I had to get my butt out there and get a job.
I rather have my dad’s teaching than all those of Marx and Engels.
Done in NYC circa 1973. There was a lawsuit. I confess to forgetting the actual year, but the suit was done. I lived near NYC, before cable TV existed, and that debate was there. If this wasn’t true, I wouldn’t mention it; I don’t make things up.
Save the sarcasm. Seriously–you consider yourself so savvy, as you endlessly try to show by lecturing us, tells me you’re more aware of your side than you wish to let on.
Your biggest problem is that you, and you other libs, are too scared to admit what you want to do to America and your fellow citizens.
Curse our Tea Parties all you want. At least we have the brass to say exactly where we stand.
You, on the other hand, try saying you’re altruistic. But you’re not.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 3:07 PM
Guess Dean doesn’t realize that Socialism and Capitalism in equal measure (i.e. State-controlled “capitalism”) is actually called Fascism…
EasyEight on December 1, 2009 at 3:10 PM
Who let all these Commie’s out of the can? Howard Dean as the purveyor of what is and what is not in Amerika? Puhlease. You can see the insanity ebb and flow like the tides in his eyes.
shades_of_gasden on December 1, 2009 at 3:13 PM
M
This is undeniably true, no matter how much in denial you are.
Read ‘em and weep, darwinawardwinner (or read ‘em and start spinning):
Unemployment rate here:
From this site, but only available in xl. Table 1.2
Year GDP (in billions of dollars)
1930 97.4
1931 83.8
1932 67.6
1933 57.6
1934 61.2
1935 69.6
1936 78.5
1937 87.8
1938 89.0
1939 89.1
1940 96.8
1941 114.1
Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 3:15 PM
Economy do good becuz Clinton in office, there4 Clinton gooood! Durrrrr.
TheUnrepentantGeek on December 1, 2009 at 3:15 PM
At some point, you’re going to realize that correlation is not causation. Maybe. I hope.
TheUnrepentantGeek on December 1, 2009 at 3:16 PM
I’d say the same thing about Reagan.
Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 3:20 PM
Nothing in and of itself, but pure unfettered capitalism AS A PURE SYSTEM leaves everyone who slips and falls to their own devices. Think Bioshock’s economy applied to real life…not a pretty picture.
Just what it sounds like, which you could easily have figured out if you’d taken the bother to actually read and think instead of your wingnut-alarm going off at the word ‘socialism’ like a virus detector.
The ‘bottom-up’ bit means a grassroots effort, tailored to local needs, instead of one-size-fits-all dictates being applied from some far-off bureaucrat. ‘Voluntary’ should be self-explanatory: there is no secular, legal law that says you must participate or else.
In short, what happens is those with much are expected to give to those who have little, when those who have little haven’t got that way by their own foolishness. You won’t get arrested for not joining in the system, but you certainly won’t make many friends by doing so. The ‘carrot’ and ‘stick’ are far different than in a system where ruinous taxes are collected and used for inefficent buy-a-vote programs.
Dark-Star on December 1, 2009 at 3:25 PM
That’s what liberals mean when they say: “the debate is finally over.” That it only just now started right this very second.
It’s called circular logic: There is no starting point, wherein definitions and common assumptions are agreed upon; and there is never even any coherently stated point, let alone a resolution.
It’s all just a big fuzzy blur of constantly repeating whatever FEELS RIGHT. And no facts or arguments will ever change that.
logis on December 1, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Nice high horse you got there.
I can speak very well of the public middle and high schools I went to, personally, besides a surprisingly small amount of PC-speak and a single ‘gun scare’, with nobody hurt except the idiot who stuck the loaded pistol in his pocket.
Dark-Star on December 1, 2009 at 3:27 PM
I don’t know about you, but I prospered under Reagan when, under Carter as a newlywed, me and my bride had it rough.
That first year, of 1979 (under Carter) the Feds (under Carter) took half our tax refund. And we needed the money!
That helped, so to speak, to put us on Food Stamps for seven months.
That was liberty?
Under Reagan, we at last began to prosper, by that time having two young children. We got better-paying jobs and invested a little. We had a small CD (NOT something involving music) at a rate of 9.5%.
McDonald’s, near out house, was offering high school kids jobs at $6.25 and hour when the minimum wage at the time was about $4 an hour and change.
Some capitalists are evil, sure, but capitalism isn’t inherently evil.
You proceed from a premise that ‘progressives’ have no evil in them at all. Are you EVER wrong.
You think you libs get donations from only cottage industries? Id the Hollywood thing run by peasants only trying to survive?
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 3:29 PM
Feel free to lecture me all your needs demand of you.
In the end, you can’t tell me a thing. I’ve been through too much, I’ve lost so much. Yet, without your socialism, I remain and I’m not lost.
I pay into the system you love so much, and I feed the hungry from what’s left after you socialists tax and take from me. People like you are the reason charity donations go down.
Just you–not because you think Americans have somehow ‘stopped’ giving.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 3:36 PM
Where are you taking this THING? Surely it does not believe the mindless dribble spewing from it’s disingenuous lips. Therefore, what is the point?
saiga on December 1, 2009 at 3:41 PM
Self-justification and nothing more.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM
I am always right. Even when I’m arguing against progressives. ;)
C’mon, has anyone on this thread ever admitted they were wrong?
Personally, as a lib, I don’t get donations, just a paycheck.
On the other hand, capitalism isn’t some kind of self-lubricating, finely-tuned machine that will work perfectly if we simply leave it alone. Capitalists are as venal, self-interested and occasionally criminal as any other class — more than some — and they’ll start wrecking the system the second they seen an opportunity and and think it’s to their advantage. Collusion, idiot speculation, bubbles, bank runs, cornered markets, monopoly pricing, predatory pricing, trusts. I like like capitalism, but never turn on it.
And, (not trying to be snide here) pleased that you did well, but, you know, correlation is not causation.
Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 3:45 PM
You have NO idea what you said with that statement.
I, and others, have FAST admitted being wrong even when talking to liberals. Seems you’re not up on current events.
To which I agree. I, being a capitalist, do not believe at all in the lassez faire (sic) form of it. The risk to my fellow Citizens is too high and I’m not willing to allow it.
Nice new slogan. Correlation raises questions, not results. The questions themselves are what lead to results when properly applied.
You aim at a syllogism to justify yourself. We gain results not by correlation with another and/or opposing entity or idea, but by examining the concept and working with it, if valid.
The American Experiment, from the early 19th Century is just that: an experiment. Let’s see what works.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 3:55 PM
So we have somehow now come to a point where it has been decieded that capitalism has failed? I was under the assumption that it was a bloated and overreaching federal government that was failing, not capitalism….my bad.
Koa on December 1, 2009 at 3:57 PM
Out – Communism
In – Communitarianism
ronsfi on December 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM
Hate Ron Paul-he’s nuts.
The gold standard is a problem that we should consider going back to. Spending what isn’t ‘real’ is stupid accounting IMHO.
I don’t go to Malkin’s site bcs it’s blocked by the firewall at work-so you won’t ever find me there.
FDR’s legacy is one of welfare & dependence, as well as the inflation of a Depression that did not have to be as bad as he made it: but propaganda usually supports FDR’s efforts, which is where you must get your pre-manufactured conclusions.
And if Clinton = Bush, then why didn’t you mention that?
And BTW-who was in charge of Congress during Clinton?
Conservatives?
Honestly, if I even cared, your spinning could make an a$$ bleed.
Troll along.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 4:00 PM
It’s more like, “Work hard and prosper while you’re young, so we can tax the shit out of you, and then die before you get old so we don’t have to take care of you.”
UltimateBob on December 1, 2009 at 4:00 PM
Here is Howard Dean commenting on the Sarah Palin book tour 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDwODbl3muE
dthorny on December 1, 2009 at 4:05 PM
One thing you and other libs fail to see among us Conservatives: We want to see you prosper and be wealthy. Your idea of hard taxation, and your class envy, also keeps you from realizing your best dreams, too.
Be heartfelt all you want. But don’t impse your value system on me and everyone else. I want to see you rich, I and other cons her want you to never have to fret over where your children will get their next meal.
I, and the other patriots here, want that for you much as we want it for all ourselves.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 4:08 PM
It’s easy to get a little testy about this type of sentiment.
There was a time when I wished the same thing of Bleeds my A$$ & others like it.
But it gets to the point when you realize these are the kind of people who are responsible for the rot & decay of our once great nation.
Their sense of entitlement, social justice, & sheer ignorance & stupidity & refusal to consider letting people make their own decisions, taking perosnal responsibility when they go back, instead of whining for a govt handout, is what is so ruinous about these policies.
They will help themselves of everything that is yours & when it’s gone, will degrade you into dependency.
It is a vicious cycle perpetrated among the weak & ignorant that has created the atmosphere we have today.
It is why I no longer feel charitable toward these types of people.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Hi!
Maybe they don’t know any better, have never been taught?
Just an idea, to pose new things they have maybe never seen before?
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Actually, you’re both somewhat wrong. A system like Dark-Star’s is absolutely justifiable, but it’s not socialism. It’s cooperation in numbers. Think housing associations, or money-markets… anything that permits voluntary participation “if you wanna join” is nothing more than an acknowledgement that you have to follow this set of rules IF you want to be a member. Freedom still applies.
Where freedom DOESN’T apply is under a truly socialist system instituted and enforced by a government. There are no “if you wanna join” rules around social welfare systems: whether you partake or not, you still MUST pay or face the legal consequences.
If people want to band together, freely, to participate in a system they wish to reap the rewards or reap what you sow, more power to them. Just don’t force others to fund or participate in any other way if they truly don’t want to.
Hootie on December 1, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Bleeds Blue & other trolls have had more than enough opportunity to do different.
And upbringing in a free country is no excuse for stupid once you become a consenting adult.
There were a lot of things my parents never told me & school never taught me.
But I had plenty of opportunities to do things different & when I screwed up, I owned it.
Trolls are here to hijack threads & thoughts & to demoralize.
They are not here to become enlightened.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 4:44 PM
You’re largely right, as so often. But there are those who come her to muck things up, and there are others who have views but keep an open mind.
I try going for the latter.
People like simplesimon come here to abuse. Others seek genuine debate; they seek ideas.
Those last are the ones I’m willing to talk to. I can defend with Conservative thought and opinion and, where they wish to listen, make an argument. At worst, we can agree to disagree.
Few hate liberals more than I do; nothing is worse than a reformed smoker. For myself, I won’t dismiss all of them out of hand. It’s a matter of picking battles.
Like you said, many libs don’t come here seeking true discussion but to F up the site. But not all of them do.
Maybe I’m wrong in the end, maybe I’m going to get shot down. So be it. But if there’s a lib out there wanting to talk, I’m in. Who knows? We might gain a new ally. Hell, I was once a lib but not any more and never again.
I’m not the first and certainly not the last.
Just an idea, Friend.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 4:54 PM
Howard Dean, who? Just who does this screeching little leprechaun think he is?
Torch on December 1, 2009 at 4:56 PM
I left out one part of my “bottom-up” system: the incentive to join is social instead of legal. Ideally, if other people observed you had lots and weren’t being generous with what you had, there would be intense social pressure to unclench your fist a little. Not participating at all would, of course, not incur jail time or fines…but you wouldn’t have a lot of friends.
Dark-Star on December 1, 2009 at 5:01 PM
God.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 5:02 PM
I don’t hate libs. I don’t hate my husband’s ex-wife.
But I do despise both. LOL!
Liam-kind heartedness is a good trait to have, & many do desrve the benefit of the doubt at 1st.
But when they prove themselves over & over again to be nothing but simplesimon-minded trolls, like Bleeds Blue, Grow Fins, crrrap6 etc…
they deserve the ire of conservatives here.
I worked with a really nice young liberal history teacher who left our school in SW ND for a job with Greenpeace as an activist in CA.
He was a good guy, but bitter. He learned his liberal bitterness in college.
He looked at all of the conservative, religous youth in our high school & chose often to villify them.
He would often lament about how bigoted, homophobic, and close minded North Dakotans were ( & he is a native himself).
I had a lot of debates with him, but in the end, he will only learn through experience, like Tammy Bruce did.
I can respect someone like her.
Trolls here-there aren’t any that I’m aware of that come here with any frequency that are interested in learning any truth.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 5:05 PM
No you are not …… I already stocked up.
oldfiveanddimer on December 1, 2009 at 5:13 PM
Hating and despising are the same thing. The degree is subjective.
My heart isn’t kind, really. I hate libs to no end, and simplesimon adds to that fury. Which he he also uses to condemn me and, later, also you.
Bitter people can never be good guys. The hard part, among people like you and me, is to not be so bitter we leave no room.
I revile liberalism, I despise simplesimon. But, to keep out of their sick trap is to leave a little room. They don’t deserve a thing, to be sure. We, on the other hand, deserve better than they are willing to give us.
Just an idea.
One or two are. To be an SOB, I use simplesimon against other libs. The hard part is choosing where to use that weapon.
In time…
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 5:18 PM
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 5:18 PM
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 5:34 PM
I put out an idea, based on my experience. I offered something that was NOT an attack. You make your own decisions of course.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 5:39 PM
That noted international scholar Bugs Bunny said it best:
“What a maroon.”
PJ Emeritus on December 1, 2009 at 6:05 PM
Both = fascism (Mussolini’s Third Way)
ebrawer on December 1, 2009 at 6:38 PM
Of course the socialists want to have some capitalism around. Socialism can’t survive without capitalists making taxable income to support socialist programs.
Funny thing about that, though: Capitalism survives without socialism. Capitalism grows without socialism. Capitalism will not leave anyone out or behind because as capitalism grows, it needs people to work and buy and save. Socialism just needs people to receive.
Funny thing about that, though: The more who receive, the fewer there are who produce. The fewer who produce, the less there is to be received. Some people receive less, some people get left out. While the infirm, old, and insane are allowed to die; and the proletariat pacified and intoxicated; the desirable, fashionable and in-control-elite are kept fit, fed and happy.
In socialism, it’s good to be a king. In capitalism anyone can be a king.
Woody.
woodcdi on December 1, 2009 at 9:09 PM
Hey, let’s put people who think like this in charge of the government!
crr6 on December 1, 2009 at 11:53 PM
So you are a conservative!
daesleeper on December 2, 2009 at 12:23 AM
The debate certainly ought to be over. Free enterprise works, communism/socialism doesn’t. There’s no further need to debate it.
But to a liberal, the debate is only over if they can pretend their side won. No matter how many times we see socialism fail and communism fail utterly, they keep reanimating the corpse of Marx with a fresh coat of makeup and a sign, “Under New Management.”
So ignore what Dean says. The truth is that the debate is over as far as the facts go, but it will never be over in a real sense, because the losers of the debate just refuse to quit. They are monuments to self-delusion.
There Goes The Neighborhood on December 2, 2009 at 1:33 AM
It’s the Constitution, stupid. You know, that thing that LIMITS what the Federal government can take from you. That document that the Liberals, Marxists and Elitists have been shredding for a while now. That’s what would defend our system from the abuse of Socialism. A reckoning is coming.
davecatbone on December 2, 2009 at 6:09 AM
There should be zero voluntary government. Voluntary social interaction – the free market can provide for everyone’s need in the *best* possible ways. Defense, school, security, food, water, currency etc. do some google searches and you’ll find that the free market has served people well in the past, that is, well, until government came in and ruined it. But you should know that by now…. Loving the Constitution is still being a statist, there’s no getting around it. Make your own damn “constitution”
where’s my signature on it? I never signed THAT contract. It’s a nice sounding one, but still, I never agreed to it.
Libertarian Joseph on December 2, 2009 at 6:27 AM
oops lol. I meant there should be zero INvoluntary government * anywho, people have the right to be free. Government is a monster that cannot be caged and used for good it will, eventually, grow too strong for your cages.
Libertarian Joseph on December 2, 2009 at 6:29 AM
my definition of government: monopoly over the use of force over a geographical location.
Libertarian Joseph on December 2, 2009 at 6:42 AM
You’re touting the dot.com bubble as a victory?
Expecting us to forget Clinton did not submit a budget to Congress after the ’94 shutdown?
Chris_Balsz on December 2, 2009 at 10:03 AM
Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 2:56 PM
The only reason there was a surplus, as Chris_Balz alludes too, is that Republicans controlled the House. You do realize that the President can’t spend a dime without Congress, right?
celtnik on December 2, 2009 at 11:49 AM
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