Howard Dean: The debate on capitalism and socialism is over
posted at 12:55 pm on December 1, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Rarely will you see an American politician speak in such a vapid and meaningless manner than does Howard Dean in this brief clip from last April, speaking to a small group in Paris. It’s hard to know where to start with this nonsense, so let’s go in reverse order of idiocy:
Barack Obama speaks for his generation … the first to do so since JFK? Actually, Democrats argued that Bill Clinton spoke for Baby Boomers, which was his generation — and with more substance. The two Bushes spoke to the political establishment, but the Clintons supposedly represented the apex of the Boomers, of which Obama is certainly a member as well. Sharp and charismatic, Bill Clinton also proved more politically adept and flexible than Obama has thus far. The Democrats may try to continue their JFK fetish, but it makes them look even sillier than the incessant Reagan references on the Right. Conservatives have more or less followed Reagan’s policy lead for the past 30 years, even while Republicans have veered away from them, while Democrats like Howard Dean and Barack Obama have run away from JFK’s muscular approach to foreign policy and his free-market bent on economics.
The same applies to Dean’s credit-grabbing for “the permanent campaign.” James Carville started the permanent campaign in 1992. Dean’s contention that Democrats always lost elections because they took three years off is laughable on its face, as they held the White House for most of the 1990s. Democrats also managed to hang onto control of the House for almost the entirety of the Cold War before either Carville or Dean came along.
But the silliest notion of Dean’s patter is that somehow we’ve just come to the conclusion that the US is going to have both capitalism and socialism. That has been true in the US at least since 1933 and FDR’s New Deal. It became even more true during LBJ’s “Great Society” efforts. We have had a mix of socialism funded by capitalism for several decades, and not coincidentally, we have the national debt to show for it. The debate now is whether we want corporatism in the finance, energy, and health-care fields, which will be an entree to complete government control of those industries in the long term, or whether we want to pursue the free-market solutions that actually create and expand prosperity. Dean may want to say that the science argument is settled, but as the polls show, it’s not only far from over, but the Democrats and statists finally seem to be losing it.
Blowback
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YEEEAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!
…Dumbass
Battlecruiser-operational on December 1, 2009 at 12:57 PM
The communists are coming out of the closet left and right. They believe there’s no stopping them now. They openly talk of destroying capitalism and imposing communism on the world.
darwin on December 1, 2009 at 12:59 PM
The debate is always over with these guys.
Global warming is true, debate over. We need health care reform, debate over. 2+2 = 1 million jobs saved or created, debate over.
Daggett on December 1, 2009 at 12:59 PM
Dear Mothership,
It’s time to collect Howie, stat. His circuitry is FUBAR.
TXUS on December 1, 2009 at 1:00 PM
koo koo
Akzed on December 1, 2009 at 1:01 PM
We might not like it, but he is right. We are not quite capitalist and not full blown socialist. The debate will be the split going forward. The days of capitalism are over in the US.
angryed on December 1, 2009 at 1:01 PM
I can not stand Howard Dean. The fact that his brain functions enough to keep him breathing is astounding to me.
ORconservative on December 1, 2009 at 1:03 PM
Prosperity Deniers
Rocks on December 1, 2009 at 1:03 PM
Yep, ended with the Soviet Union face down in the dust bin of history. Dean obviously drank his way through that era.
tarpon on December 1, 2009 at 1:03 PM
The dirty little secret about Dean is that he, like most of his fellow travelers, grew up in a wealthy NYC family. Somehow I think his vision of socialism still has himself living on Park Ave.
angryed on December 1, 2009 at 1:05 PM
This simply proves there are no qualifications needed to run for POTUS…
d1carter on December 1, 2009 at 1:05 PM
Jet Screamer.
Del Dolemonte on December 1, 2009 at 1:06 PM
Go to hell Dean.
rplat on December 1, 2009 at 1:06 PM
Oxygen thief
gsherin on December 1, 2009 at 1:07 PM
That’s not even a new debate. It has been true since FDR as well that there has been tension between government control of key industries and private enterprise. The industries have changed from steel and trains to healthcare and information systems but the debate remains the same.
Howard Dean is truly the radical socialist’s radical socialist. In other words, he is a complete idiot.
highhopes on December 1, 2009 at 1:07 PM
Isn’t that the whole point of Marxism anyway? A small group ruling the masses with total control over everything they do … while enriching themselves with their toil and sweat?
darwin on December 1, 2009 at 1:08 PM
As Ed says, either we haven’t had capitalism since FDR or we are only looking at incremental steps toward socialism now. Either way, its not like everything is suddenly doomed this moment. We can reverse this.
Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 1:08 PM
Dr. Death speaks in fart tongues
hawkman on December 1, 2009 at 1:08 PM
Democrats are losing the argument because they own the Executive branch, the Judiciary, and both Houses of Congress?
I’d hate to see what it would be like if they were winning.
JohnJ on December 1, 2009 at 1:10 PM
The qualifications are low…. age and place of birth (which the incumbent has managed to prove one of two)….. but being qualified to be POTUS and being competent to be POTUS are two entirely different things.
highhopes on December 1, 2009 at 1:11 PM
I disagree, Darwin. We can still use “natural selection” of .223 and 7.62X39 placement. They haven’t disarmed us yet. And many of us are willing to fight for capitalism and freedom…
Battlecruiser-operational on December 1, 2009 at 1:11 PM
Now available at your nearest toy store!
Shy Guy on December 1, 2009 at 1:12 PM
Am I the only one here who has a deeply rooted desire to beat the living crap out of Howard Dean?
BPD on December 1, 2009 at 1:12 PM
Howard is speaking for the entire democratic party. He was the DNC chairman, does anyone not beleive the socialist society is not discussed in depth behind closed doors? What about candidate vetting for congressional races?
Howard just did us all a huge favor for the second time. First time by stating tort reform would not be a part of Obamacare because nobody wants to take on the lawyers and now this little eye-opener.
Thanks Howard, got any more secrets about the DNC you would like to share?
booter on December 1, 2009 at 1:12 PM
With that woman looking bored in the last part in the background-that looked very much like one of our boring ‘continuing education’ seminars we teachers are forced to attend (waste of time).
The ‘permanent campaign’ is nothing more than providing free loaders jobs for a lifetime-jetting around all over creation, living it up in hotels, cocktail party cirquits aplenty.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 1:13 PM
circuits
Duh.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 1:13 PM
Dean’s 15 minutes are over…time to go home
cmsinaz on December 1, 2009 at 1:13 PM
told ya, a socialist is HoDe and thus his love for Obama
ginaswo on December 1, 2009 at 1:13 PM
YYYYEEEEAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!@!!!@!!
A sound, level-headed political analyst if there ever was one.
Good Lt on December 1, 2009 at 1:14 PM
Dean is an idiot. He argues about issues as though the entire country looks just like Vermont. If anything, Vermont is not representative of anything but Vermont.
He doesn’t take into consideration the minorities and the effect that they have on social issues. He talked about only increasing premiums by 20% for the people in that state who are sick and it works.
It won’t work across the country. I don’t think he’s a bad guy, he’s just ignorant.
ThackerAgency on December 1, 2009 at 1:15 PM
Who is this Howard Dean and why do you think I care of what he speaks?
upinak on December 1, 2009 at 1:16 PM
Socialism can’t exist without capitalism because socialism doesn’t pay for itself.
Capitalism can exist without socialism because capitalism pays for itself while paying for others as well.
Capitalism wins, Dean-O.
Next.
Good Lt on December 1, 2009 at 1:16 PM
But I thought democrats weren’t socialists.
lorien1973 on December 1, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Of course Dean and his ilk will be the guys in charge of this brave new nation they have decided to create.
That’s the thing about liberals, they love the idea of the government controlling everything but every last one of them believes they themselves will be appointed to the government councils.
Bishop on December 1, 2009 at 1:20 PM
“George Bush is not my neighbor” – Howard Dean
thebrokenrattle on December 1, 2009 at 1:22 PM
Dean may want to say that thescienceargument is settled, but as the polls show, it’s not only far from over, but the Democrats and statists finally seem to be losing it.Reading this, there is a song that comes to mind:
The boy said: “My name’s Johnny and it might be a sin,
“But I’ll take your bet, your gonna regret, ‘cos I’m the best that’s ever been.”
The work proceeds apace.
Horatius on December 1, 2009 at 1:23 PM
Why waste your time and besides if you beat the crap out of him the only thing left would be his shirt, shoes and pants.
belad on December 1, 2009 at 1:23 PM
Howard Dean is the gift that keeps on giving.
yoda on December 1, 2009 at 1:23 PM
Correct strikethroughs and quote blocking, however, do not proceed apace.
Horatius on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM
Millionaire Communists are a constant source of entertainment. The best way to stop these people is to give them a taste of communist reality. Nationalize their persons. Confiscate all their assets, make them continue to work at their jobs – acting in movies, making documentaries, reporting the news etc. – but pay them only the minimum wage while the rest of their salaries go directly to the public treasury. Give them the life they wish for everyone else.
lonesomecharlie on December 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM
That’s the second time in the last couple of years.
LibTired on December 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM
How did Doctor Dean get so stupid? He is an insult to educated people.
Conservative Voice on December 1, 2009 at 1:27 PM
It’s called a “mixed economy.” We’ve had one for at least a hundred years. Every country has one. I don’t know who is more vapid: him for saying it or you for thinking it’s important.
Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:28 PM
2nd
cmsinaz on December 1, 2009 at 1:30 PM
We have an epic 10 year struggle to beat back that which comes from the east – Socialism. The foundation has been set but now is the time for the bruisers to begin the coordinated counterattack against The Construct.
It is us who will strike the deadly wound against the head of the beast. Once that’s done, then get ready for the big show.
True_King on December 1, 2009 at 1:30 PM
Mixed economy?
And how has that been working out again here?
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 1:31 PM
Except for Obama. errr, Or Pelosi, or Harry Reid, or Joe Biden…this could go on all day.
bridgetown on December 1, 2009 at 1:31 PM
100+ Trillion in unfunded mandates.
Mixed economy = Ponzi nation
BPD on December 1, 2009 at 1:33 PM
Marxism: “I Won”
faraway on December 1, 2009 at 1:36 PM
What an ass.
Red Cloud on December 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM
We’re all socialists now.
james23 on December 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM
He might sound stupid to you and me, but unfortunately there is a large segment of the population that believes this crap.
UltimateBob on December 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM
Bleeds Blue seems quite pleased that we’re finally on the verge of total economic collapse.
UltimateBob on December 1, 2009 at 1:39 PM
No way ……
I have a reoccurring fantasy that has grown more and more reoccurring as each day goes by.
A carbon fiber deep sea fishing rod – fly or fresh water rods lack the heft – bent back to an approximate 110 degree angle ……. whenever Pelosi, Sharpton, Frank, Gore, etc., etc., embarrasses the human race by opening their mouth – WHACK – right across the forehead leaving a welt that testifies to their ignorance for at least a month.
oldfiveanddimer on December 1, 2009 at 1:40 PM
It’s unsettling at best to think people once depended on this whackjob for their health.
CurtZHP on December 1, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Doctor Dumb.
ZK on December 1, 2009 at 1:46 PM
chuckle
faraway on December 1, 2009 at 1:47 PM
These societal parasites seem to be crawling out of the woodwork now. We’re getting close to the time for a national emetic.
elduende on December 1, 2009 at 1:47 PM
Well, until the Bush Administration got its hand on the tiller, we were the greatest economic engine in the history of the world.
As you might recall.
And, of course, even if Sarah Palin re-molded the nation in her own image and save our moose-bacon, it would still be a mixed economy.
Or are all y’all going to take away your granny’s (who am I kidding, your own) Social Security checks and medicare, abolish public colleges, let the farmers live off what they grow and build your own roads?
Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 1:48 PM
That is an excellent comparison.
Nothing like that will last for long.
From what I’ve gathered over its comments, I perceive this, also.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 1:49 PM
All I pretty much got from you is BOOOOOOOOOOSHHHH!
That’s all I pretty much ever get from you.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 1:50 PM
The Cloward-Piven plan is coming together nicely……
UltimateBob on December 1, 2009 at 1:52 PM
And there are so many who do not believe in such things.
And pray tell Bleeds Blue, where did all of the communists go when the iron curtain fell?
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 1:54 PM
King of the window-lickers.
Track-A-'Crat on December 1, 2009 at 1:57 PM
It sure is funny how Dims can restrict the free market with a mountain of rules and regulations, then complain that it doesn’t work.
Not funny as in “Ha, ha” funny. Funny in the sad way, the Howard Dean way.
BackwardsBoy on December 1, 2009 at 1:57 PM
Yea. We should all stop posting links or referencing the “Tear Down This Wall” speech and move on. Like Newt Gingrinch said, “The Reagan Era is over.” Right Ed?
/sarc off
Sultry Beauty on December 1, 2009 at 1:57 PM
Regarding Social Security, I am willing to take my losses and opt out. I’d forego collecting if I was allowed to cease contributing. And I’m 46 (closer to retirement than I am to “getting started”). Unfortunately, I do not have that option. I’m forced to keep paying into the system until its inevitable demise, which will happen before I’m old enough to collect any benefits.
And if building roads was the only thing that our tax dollars were being wasted on, we wouldn’t have anything to worry about. We could afford that. Road construction should be left to the states anyway, not the federal gummint.
Finally – there should be no “public colleges.” I believe in separation of:
- church and state
- education and state
- commerce and state,
- medicine and state.
UltimateBob on December 1, 2009 at 1:57 PM
It sure is funny how Dims can restrict the free market with a mountain of rules and regulations, then complain that it doesn’t work.
Not funny as in “Ha, ha” funny. Funny in the sad way, the Howard Dean way.
BackwardsBoy on December 1, 2009 at 1:57 PM
ROFL. Yep. That’s pretty much all I hear in the translation.
Shambhala on December 1, 2009 at 1:58 PM
I thought a mix of socialism funded by capitalism is what has been known, historically, as Fascism. You know, like NAZI’s. Yes, as when the left accuses anyone who dares disagree with them of being NAZI’s. Those same NAZI’s the left imitates. Isn’t THAT what you get when you mix of socialism and capitalism?
oldleprechaun on December 1, 2009 at 1:59 PM
Ed missed the elephant (er… sycophant!?) in the room. Here we have Dean candidly verifying what we’ve observed all along: that Obama always seems to be in perpetual campaign mode. Always preaching. Always setting up and blowing down strawmen. The way that liberals rave when they think they have cunningly imposed their worldview on us “dupes” reminds me of super-villains who are compelled to brag of their crimes.
Clearly, Obama and his administration are not custodians of the Constitution. He studied it at Harvard so he’d know how to dismantle it.
jcmorris on December 1, 2009 at 2:00 PM
Perhaps I’ll change my screen name to “confusedoldleprechaun”.
oldleprechaun on December 1, 2009 at 2:00 PM
Socialism cannot exist without Capitalism because Socialism is parasitical by nature. Without Capitalism to parasitize Socialism fails.
It has always perplexed me how the Socialists in the US expect their system to work here if/when they manage to implement it, as we have successfully kept many Socialist states functioning (barely) for decades but there is no one around big enough for a Socialist USSA to bleed.
hachiban on December 1, 2009 at 2:03 PM
Oh boy, we’re going to get to eat horsecrap AND ice cream!
/sarc
Aitch748 on December 1, 2009 at 2:04 PM
When someone in politics declares a debate ‘settled’, it means he’s run out of arguments that can’t be countered by genuine evidence. The very nature of American-style politics precludes anything ever being settled once and for all; the electorate is fickle.
In the liberal mind(?), the term ‘settled’ means anyone in opposition should just shut up. A speech like this is to prevent, using people with minds(?) likes Dean’s, as the way to shut off debate so libs can win by default.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM
That’s historical fact, in this case. If you want to base your objections to a mixed economy on the current situation (the economy is growing again, by the way) then we need to to talk about the guy in charge when the bottom fell out.
If you want to talk about the 65 years before the 2000 election, I’m happy to do that, as well.
You’re creating a permanent caste system. You’d turn America into pre-Independence India.
Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM
With Dean his mind is always torn between idiocy and stupidity and amazingly they both win every time.
albill on December 1, 2009 at 2:10 PM
It is not all Bush’s fault, it is not all Obama’s or Clintons’s or even FDR’s fault.
They all have ownership. ALong with the millions of moronic Americans who sell out ther vote. Along with the millions of dependent welfare bloodsuckers. ALong with the present & past Congresses for giving up more & more of their power over time. Along with the cowardly states for taking govt whore $$ for projects etc, thereby allowing the Fed govt to come in & dictate local policy to them.
So by crying out immediately BOOOOOSH did it supports the idea that you’re a leftist loon-as does all your previous comments I have seen over time here.
I have nothing to talk about with you, nor does anyone else here.
You have made it quite plain you do not deal in reason.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 2:13 PM
And when that transition is complete, the next one begins: meet full blown communism or a dictatorship. Take your pick.
Badger40 on December 1, 2009 at 2:14 PM
The debate is always over with liberals:
The debate on global warming is over: Then the email leak.
The debate between capitalism and socialism is over: Yup, Reagan proved that capitalism works and socialism does not.
Every time liberals stake out an indefensible piece of ground the announce that the debate is over. They only say this when they do not want a debate.
The Rock on December 1, 2009 at 2:14 PM
He has two functioning brain cells, they’re arguing with each other. I guess he’s a classic loner who talks to himself: he wins all the arguments.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 2:17 PM
So, Dean-o, when the Democrats are turned out of the House by the score next year, what will that say about socialism and the permanent campaign?
Kafir on December 1, 2009 at 2:17 PM
His own party has distanced itself from him…he’s just looking for relevance, plus this is from April.
Schadenfreude on December 1, 2009 at 2:17 PM
See, this is the nonsense of the left. The INCONVENIENT TRUTH is that they need capitalism to fund their socialism. JUST DOESN’T WORK.
marklmail on December 1, 2009 at 2:18 PM
Angry white right-wing males pitched a hissy fit.
Amazing to me how libs are always so retro. Marx is soooo 19th Century.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 2:21 PM
Because before the 20th century there were never panics and depressions. And there was a huge and growing middle class.
Do you read anything besides comic books?
It’s a symbiotic relationship. Socialism builds schools, ports and roads. Kids go to school, get smart, build things, ship them down the road to the port, make money, pay some of it back in taxes and the cycle continues.
Bleeds Blue on December 1, 2009 at 2:25 PM
.
As usual, your “historical fact” exists only inside your fevered imagination.
The guy who wants to convert us to socialism is complaining about a permanent caste system.
That’s all socialism is. The elite living high on the hog, everyone else living in misery.
MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:27 PM
I’m creating a free society in which I would be able to make my own choices with my own money, rather than some faceless bureaucrats in another city making them for me. What is so bad about that?
UltimateBob on December 1, 2009 at 2:27 PM
A distinction without a difference.
The only way to implement communism is via a dictatorship.
MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:28 PM
What makes you think that govt interference in the marketplace started in the 20th century? Do you get your history from comic books or something?
MarkTheGreat on December 1, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Rush to discuss this very issue~Next! Rushbo is on FIRE today!
HornetSting on December 1, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Absolutely.
“I won“…. Sound familiar?
UltimateBob on December 1, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Obama, the Spock of modern politics…live long and prosper, so I can tax the sh*t out of you.
Wyznowski on December 1, 2009 at 2:31 PM
The economic ignorance demonstrated on this page is astounding.
Protip: there is no such thing as a ‘pure’ economic system. Even the old Soviet Union had to make some concessions (very quietly) to the free-market ideals in order to prop up their brutal, inefficient regime. Likewise the other way around, the case was made early on in our nation’s history that a purely everyone-for-themselves mentality wasn’t such a great idea.
Also, the debate on capitalism and top-down involuntary socialism is long over: the latter is completely unworkable. Bottom-up involuntary socialism would be worth a look…if we had the values of our earliest years. But we don’t, and the abortive attempts at crafting a system sans the Christian faith (see the hippie communes) have fallen flat.
Dark-Star on December 1, 2009 at 2:33 PM
Very questionable there. Since the Feds got involved and curricula started to change, we have been dumbed-down. Academe is NOT academic, and I know people who got failing grades because they didn’t tow the professor’s line of argument.
I went to school learning math, history, the sciences, English, spelling, etc. I can still diagram a complex sentence after forty years.
What has happened since is that basic math is considered somehow ‘racist’, and true studies are supplanted with self-esteem courses, even into grade school.
Clinton’s first Surgeon General advocated reaching six-year-olds about masturbation.
Maybe to you that’s ‘education’. But not to many others.
You may want a result, but what your wishes require means the rest of us have to cowtow to people like you. Ain’t gonna happen as easily as you seem to wish.
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 2:33 PM
Comic books would be a start!
jdkchem on December 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM
The left wants to end the debate over (insert your favorite topic here) because they cannot debate. They seem to believe that they cannot defend any position on its merits, but rather must attack the position or character of their opponent to mask their own weakness. To me, that tells me they either don’t really believe their own position or don’t think it’s strong enough to prevail. The public finally seems to be noticing…
n0doz on December 1, 2009 at 2:35 PM
Spot-on!
+100 plus kudos
Liam on December 1, 2009 at 2:39 PM
Too bad we haven’t had capitalism for decades.
Riposte on December 1, 2009 at 2:40 PM
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