Quotes of the day

posted at 10:30 pm on November 30, 2009 by Allahpundit

“Now notice something curious: not one of the initial publicly identified signatories of the Manhattan Declaration is Mormon…

“That degree of commitment might seem to entitle you to a seat at the table. But no. The framers of the Manhattan Declaration say they ‘act together in obedience to the one true God, the triune God.’ Mormons do not accept the concept of God as three-in-one…

“The next wave of social conservatism is presenting itself as a particularly Christian cause, with Christian defined in a way that would exclude not only Mitt Romney, but also the man who created Tiny Tim and Ebenezer Scrooge. (Charles Dickens was a Unitarian, not a Trinitarian.) For that matter, neither George Washington, nor John Adams, nor Thomas Jefferson, nor Abraham Lincoln was a believer in the Trinitarian God of the Manhattan Declaration…

“Mormon America has provided leadership and support for conservative politics out of all proportion to its numbers. If there’s a test for conservative identity that excludes Mormons, it’s not a good test. And if conservatism has shrunk too small to contain conservative Mormons, it is not only Mormons who will search for something bigger.”


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High hopes, I am sorry, but saying that Mormons aren’t Christians is Mormon bashing. Mormons are Christians. We profess Christ. I have never been to a church meeting that was not all about living the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, I taught a lesson on Sunday all about Christ. Your test for what constitutes an actual Christian is less inclusive than Christs- he only asked that we follow him.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:00 AM

Made sense to me:) But I meant if you said things like: The “bad part of Jewish history” or “all the bad things that blacks did” People go insane and say you are obviously a bigot. Doesn’t matter when you are a Mormon though, people will say the most outrageous things right to your face and are shocked- SHOCKED! when you don’t agree with them.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 8:57 AM

Heh, I say stuff like that all the time, to my black and Jewish friends (I like to argue). They get irritated but if you make a rational argument, you can usually have a useful discussion. If people can’t handle a little criticism – well who wants to hang out with a bunch of weenies like that?

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:03 AM

And mainstream faiths reject the idea that Christ made Joseph Smith into his stenographer for another testament. I’m not going to get into a theological debate on a politically-oriented blog. I’m not anti-Mormon but Mormonism is not a Christ-centered faith either. –highhopes

What you just said is Anti-mormon. David Frum has done his job well.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:04 AM

It doesn’t matter what reason you oppose Romney. The Mormon ADL will accuse you of anti-Mormonism no matter what. This only drags the discussion down to a level not worth playing at. Defend your policies without using religion as a shield and an excuse. I think most of us can live with a Mormon president, but not one who uses Mormonism as his politics.

SKYFOX on December 1, 2009 at 9:05 AM

High hopes, I am sorry, but saying that Mormons aren’t Christians is Mormon bashing. Mormons are Christians. We profess Christ. I have never been to a church meeting that was not all about living the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, I taught a lesson on Sunday all about Christ. Your test for what constitutes an actual Christian is less inclusive than Christs- he only asked that we follow him.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:00 AM

Right. This kind of bigotry (“Mormons aren’t Christians”) is part of the reason why Romney didn’t win the nomination in 2008 and won’t win in 2012.

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:06 AM

especially their family values

Conformists do not tolerate what does not fit into their own dogma. One example, Mormon spouses are advised to divorce when one “falls away” from “the” church. Excommunication for having one’s own ecumenical mind severs family ties, as only those with temple recommends are considered “worthy” of permanent/eternal associations.

Ideological intolerance and historical ignorance are disturbing, particularly when dealing with a revisionist theocracy.

maverick muse on December 1, 2009 at 9:07 AM

It doesn’t matter what reason you oppose Romney. The Mormon ADL will accuse you of anti-Mormonism no matter what. This only drags the discussion down to a level not worth playing at. Defend your policies without using religion as a shield and an excuse. I think most of us can live with a Mormon president, but not one who uses Mormonism as his politics.

SKYFOX on December 1, 2009 at 9:05 AM

That mighy hold a little more weight if people didn’t say things like

I’m not anti-Mormon but Mormonism is not a Christ-centered faith either.

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:08 AM

well who wants to hang out with a bunch of weenies like that?

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:03 AM

Not me- I say, bring it on. I like to have rational discussions about Mormonism. I find that it usually stands up well. Mormons tend to be scholars, the glory of God is intelligence- and while I don’t know everything, I find apologetics fascinating. Most of the things you hear about Mormons in the media and what not are usually so outrageously untrue, it is easy to debunk it. I find it hilarious what some people will choose to believe about their nice Mormon neighbors who are friendly and helpful.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:09 AM

I think most of us can live with a Mormon president, but not one who uses Mormonism as his politics.

SKYFOX on December 1, 2009 at 9:05 AM

I don’t recall Romney ever doing that- not once. He only gave his speech because he had to, for people who are so tolerant, like High hopes.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:10 AM

One example, Mormon spouses are advised to divorce when one “falls away” from “the” church. Excommunication for having one’s own ecumenical mind severs family ties, as only those with temple recommends are considered “worthy” of permanent/eternal associations.
maverick muse on December 1, 2009 at 9:07 AM

This is blatantly untrue. My husband served in a bishopric. In the handbook it tells leaders to not advise people to divorce. This is a lie.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:13 AM

Mormons are NOT Christian. Anyone who doesn’t know the origins of Joe SMith and Mormons is an idiot and has no say to what Mormonism is and isn’t.

Read the history of Mormonism before you make a claim that they are Christians.

“One Nation Under Gods”

Joe Smith claimed that God was a man like you and me and you can become a god too if you are a good mormon….. Joe Smith claimed he had special powers by looking into a hat and telling where buried treasures are….Joe Smith claimed to translate the Egyptian book of Abraham, which is the BOOK OF THE DEAD AND NOT THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM.

Joe SMith was a fraud!!!!!

Lisa on December 1, 2009 at 9:16 AM

Interesting thread folks- I need to go have a life this morning, but thanks for the debate!

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:17 AM

I signed the Declaration as did a man I consider a friend and inspiration Bishop Salvatore Cordileone. As did Bishop Dolan, Cardinal Regale and Fr. Fezzio; all very important orthodox Roman Catholics. Bishop Sal and us Knights of Columbus have worked closely with many Mormons on Prop. 8 and other pro-Marriage and Pro-Life issues.

There is NOTHING in the Manhattan Declaration that would exclude Mormon participation. There’s also NOTHING in the “Rules” that we traditional Christians can’t write up a document without consulting Mormons.

What we have here is DAVID FRUM working, as usual, to tear conservatives apart. He is a horse’s ass. He’s a total phony. Everything he does is to tear conservatism apart.

AllahP would do us all a big favor if he NEVER quoted the little bastard again. Why do you AP keep pumping up this traitor’s traffic?

rcl on December 1, 2009 at 9:17 AM

LOL, Lisa- you crack me up. I’d advise some study for you. reading is fun! Ok, now I’m gone. really.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:19 AM

There has been so much of Mormons believe this or that and let’s face it, no one really knows that much about Mormonism. They have a beautiful temple in Salt Lake City and do worship Jesus as their savior. At least they don’t practice jihad or chop heads off. Good enough for me.

Kissmygrits on December 1, 2009 at 9:22 AM

Joe SMith was a fraud!!!!!

Lisa on December 1, 2009 at 9:16 AM

Come on, people beat up on the guy because he was a #1 pick, but the fact of the matter is that the guy was one of the 10 best power forwards in the NBA from 1995-2000, and he’s very useful off the bench even today in the twilight of his career. Sure he’s not Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan, but who is?

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:22 AM

Cue the crickets

tomswid on December 1, 2009 at 9:23 AM

When Mormon’s are attacked for being incompetant, or not fit for office, they always fall back on the victim card “Mormon bigotry”…just as many people don’t like bald men, overweight (read fat) woman, how many of those get elected? Ultra skinny men, how many of those get elected? The fact is many factors come into play.
What does not help, is the constant insistence that Mormon’s are Christians…they should just let that go. They are an Abrahamic religion, as is Jews and Muslims, but they are not Christian…just ask them if they believe in the Nicene Creed (or a few derivatives)…most, as they have posted, think it has no worth and was thrown together by a bunch of religious hacks. It is a Christian’s profession of faith. It is our founding statement of faith in just a few sentences.
It does get grating when someone is trying to steal your beliefs…Mormons have theirs, Christians has theirs, Jews have theirs, Muslims have theirs, Buddhists have theirs, Wickens have theirs…honor the diversity, don’t try to steal it.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 9:24 AM

Chris_Balsz

*applauds*

As to Romney, it’s the $50 abortions and a seat on the board for Planned Parenthood, with none for a pro-life advocate, stupid! It has nothing to do with religion, at least for this highly religious woman. As a Catholic, living in the Deep South most of my life, I haven’t voted for someone who shares my faith, probably ever. Let’s face it, there are very few ‘Catholics’ in politics that a faithful Catholic could ever support, and it is for the same reason I would never support Romney.

I only discriminate based on the positions one takes on issues, not religion. Although I do tend to hold a Catholic’s positions against them even more. Given a pro-abortion Catholic up against a pro-abortion Mormon, and a gun to my head, so I don’t have the option of not voting, I’d vote for the Mormon.

pannw on December 1, 2009 at 9:26 AM

That mighy hold a little more weight if people didn’t say things like

I’m not anti-Mormon but Mormonism is not a Christ-centered faith either.

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:08 AM

So like the global warming crowd, everyone has to accept whatever is told them to accept?
If someone makes a wrong doctrinal statement, you are saying we have to accept that?
Just simple ask a Mormon if they believe in the Nicene Creed, the Christians statement of faith since 300 AD. For 1700 years that was the “litmus” test of faith.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 9:30 AM

Just simple ask a Mormon if they believe in the Nicene Creed, the Christians statement of faith since 300 AD. For 1700 years that was the “litmus” test of faith.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 9:30 AM

I see, so Jesus Christ and St. Peter aren’t Christians? Interesting.

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:31 AM

I really think Romney is a good bet for ’12. The economy will be in a shambles and he has Bain Capital in his background

I hope he doesnt get Hucakbeed out!

ginaswo on December 1, 2009 at 9:32 AM

i’m Catholic BTW and I donlt mind what religion Romney is as long as he doesnt start sacrificing American jobs

ginaswo on December 1, 2009 at 9:33 AM

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:00 AM

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:08 AM

It is not Mormon-bashing to point out why there is dispute over LDS as a faith. Sorry if you are so thin-skinned on the subject.

I also posted that, as far as politics go, it doesn’t matter and that I supported Romney until the bitter end. But, yet, you want to make it all into a Mormon-bashing theme because then YOU ALL can play the victim filled with righteous anger. I’m not playing your game.

highhopes on December 1, 2009 at 9:36 AM

High hopes, I am sorry, but saying that Mormons aren’t Christians is Mormon bashing. Mormons are Christians. We profess Christ.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:00 AM

Then you profess that the Nicene Creed is your statement of faith…or tell us what part(s) you do not agree with?
You are now Trinitarians? When did that happen?

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 9:39 AM

I see, so Jesus Christ and St. Peter aren’t Christians? Interesting.

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:31 AM

I don’t understand your post…the Nicene Creed was written in around 300AD, well after their deaths…you post doesn’t make sense.
That’s like saying Washington didn’t agree he is the father of our country, because he never said it…what a strange argument you tried to present, weird…

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 9:43 AM

I don’t understand your post…the Nicene Creed was written in around 300AD, well after their deaths…you post doesn’t make sense.
That’s like saying Washington didn’t agree he is the father of our country, because he never said it…what a strange argument you tried to present, weird…

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 9:43 AM

Your analogy sucks. You said the only way someone can be a Christian is if they believe in the Nicene Creed. That’s the *ONLY WAY*. Which leaves out Jesus Christ and St. Peter. Your Christianity doesn’t have any Jesus in it.

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:47 AM

They have a beautiful temple in Salt Lake City and do worship Jesus as their savior. At least they don’t practice jihad or chop heads off. Good enough for me.

Kissmygrits on December 1, 2009 at 9:22 AM

From a LDS church-sponsored site:


At the core of a Mormon’s testimony is faith in God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, and Joseph Smith’s restoration of the true church on earth.

It’s that belief in the 1820 chat Joseph Smith had in a Manchester, NY, grove that makes the LDS into a cult along with ascribing to testaments that are not the true and revealed word of God that were based on Smith’s “restoration” of the true church.

highhopes on December 1, 2009 at 9:48 AM

I suppose if you are excluding Mormons, atheists like me are right out.

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 9:48 AM

Do me a favor- could you point out to me the bit in the bible where Jesus instructs the faithful that they must endorse the Nicene Creed? I don’t remember that part. I thought it was about being humble, and repentant, and feeding the poor.

The argument is not weird, it points out that the Nicene creed was constructed by men.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:48 AM

Cue the crickets

tomswid on December 1, 2009 at 9:23 AM

And the Seagulls? O my, I crack myself up.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:49 AM

The argument is not weird, it points out that the Nicene creed was constructed by men.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:48 AM

Of course it was, and adopted by most every Christian Church as being a foundational statement of faith…it cuts to the chase and defines what a Christian is, for over 1700 years.
Just because the exact words, written in the exact way is not in the bible doesn’t make it wrong.
You would have to throw out most every religious writing, and you end up with just one book, the bible.
That is what you want, just the bible? Okay, then you throw out the Book of Mormon…you just made my point even stronger.
It is, as I had stated, a statement of faith adopted by the Christians that define the basic Christian principles…rather then arguing about where it came from, show me what is wrong with it.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 9:53 AM

It’s that belief in the 1820 chat Joseph Smith had in a Manchester, NY, grove that makes the LDS into a cult along with ascribing to testaments that are not the true and revealed word of God that were based on Smith’s “restoration” of the true church.– highhopes

I can understand why you don’t believe it- but hear me out- we believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, like Moses and Abraham. He preached the gospel and Christ crucified. What we have essentially done is added modern day prophets, where you only believe in the old school ones. I don’t get why that disqualifies us from being Christians. You believe in prophets, right? Why is our belief in prophets so off- putting?

Man, I swore I wasn’t getting sucked back in this morning.

And I welcome atheists. I think all good conservative people should be welcome. United we stand, peeps.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM

The hang-up that prevents Romney from gaining acceptance from ‘outsiders’ is his own ideological separation dividing himself from the rest of America. He is BETTER than others BECAUSE he is Mormon.

Regardless of his consignment or perhaps because of his consignment to Mormonism being the only true religion neglects reaching this point: Romney blinks, buckles and reacts with divisive rather than unifying mannerisms when under the gun.

I would not vote for Romney to face down Putin or any dictator. Romney is just another blow hard weak kneed revisionist puppet made particularly of Mormon fabrication for marketing ploys.

And as per “making money”, Romney did it the old fashioned way: backed by investors, specifically by the Mormon hierarchy.

The queerest part of this story is that this Capitalist wealth derived from the Mormon United Order, that being absolute Communism run by the State of Deseret Theocracy. Marx had nothing compared to Brigham Young in their day. Missionaries were sent to convert Christians to Mormonism with the “call to Zion” New Jerusalem SLC, to be there IN TIME for the 3rd coming (most of us know as the “2nd coming of Christ”) to initiate the millenium. So converted folks sold all they had and moved to SLC. Many were surprised to find that their goods were all confiscated in Utah by “the” Mormon church, and they were only allowed what they “needed” from their Mormon bishop who kept everyone in line. No dissent tolerated. Think of leaving; think again. Eventually with an abundance of population to redistribute given polygamy plus converts, many Mormons were ordered on “missions” to start all over again in arid or freezing regions north and south of SLC, with the Mormon authoritarians in charge of every outpost “stake” and “ward” and “branch”. All goods having been confiscated by “the authorities”, those who refused to obey were excommunicated, and subsequent to their breaking their blood oaths, many were never heard from by anyone again. One could easily make the point that this modern church based its fortune on blood money. Modernity arrived with the iron horse and the US Army to settle the issue of Deseret/Utah remaining a US territory, not an independent state as the Mormon heirarchy originally planned, to remain out of the USA. Conservatives are aware of the initial Republican Party Platform: to eliminate slavery and polygamy. This Mormon business of polygamy as the direct from God commandment requiring obedient participation in order to reach celestial glory met its match as the US government established the preeminence of the US Constitution as the supreme law of the land, and prosecuted polygamists. Hence, Mormon history revisionism began its course. Whereas every “worthy” Mormon had been a polygamist under Brigham Young in Utah, after the Manifest(s), polygamists abandoned their plural wives and children to fend for themselves in the wild west. Those who wouldn’t fled to Canada and Mexico, like the Romney extended family. Those who still abide by the original Mormon religion are the Fundamentalists who populate communities in Canada, the border of Utah/AZ, as well as their new fortress in West Texas. Those “real” Mormons born after 1970 actually believe that “only a minority of 19th Century Mormons were ever polygamists” since that’s the revised published word from SLC headquarters.

Faith. Base it on truth, not dogma.

I like the ecumenical Palin much more than I like Romney whose supporters have no tolerance for the ecumenical movement when push comes to shove.

maverick muse on December 1, 2009 at 9:56 AM

And I welcome atheists. I think all good conservative people should be welcome. United we stand, peeps.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM

Admittedly, I was being snarky. But I can’t help but be bemused (and possibly a bit discouraged) by these arguments over points that ultimately are unrelated to political policy (or even social behavior).

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 9:58 AM

Your analogy sucks. You said the only way someone can be a Christian is if they believe in the Nicene Creed. That’s the *ONLY WAY*. Which leaves out Jesus Christ and St. Peter. Your Christianity doesn’t have any Jesus in it.

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 9:47 AM

No, your reading comp sucks…I stated quite plainly that it is a statement of faith adopted by Christians…not the only statement of faith, or the only words, but a statement of faith. And it was a challenge to Mormon’s to contradict it, since you are probably neither, butt out.
Show me the words “only way” in the context that I think that is the ultimate statement…heck just post where I even stated the “only way”, since you repeated it twice.

So you show me, instead of attacking personally, what is wrong with the Nicene Creed in relation to Christianity…do that without Googling your anti-Christian sites.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 9:59 AM

R2B- I have no problem with your belief in the Nicene Creed. I think that anything that invites people to come unto Christ is great. I happen to have doctrinal differences with you, but it does not make me say things like you are not a proper Christian. I think you are a proper Christian, which is the point. Mormons would be glad if you would offer us the same courtesy. Don’t you think that would be the most Christlike thing to do?

Which I will point out that, politically, if Christians of all stripes were to come together instead of arguing over who killed who, there would be no stopping us.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:59 AM

I don’t get why that disqualifies us from being Christians. You believe in prophets, right? Why is our belief in prophets so off- putting?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM

Without getting into Smith’s personal life…do you believe in the statement of Christian faith, the Nicene Creed?
And if you want a real true answer as to what is off-putting with living prophets…well just look at some of their history…the real history away from the LDS sites.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 10:07 AM

And I welcome atheists. I think all good conservative people should be welcome. United we stand, peeps.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM

Admittedly, I was being snarky. But I can’t help but be bemused (and possibly a bit discouraged) by these arguments over points that ultimately are unrelated to political policy (or even social behavior).

Count to 10 on December 1, 2009 at 9:58 AM

I find it disheartening too. the whole point of Christianity is that people should be on one heart and one mind, to do good. I think if we can come together on political policy, that would be a great step for mankind. As for the religious stuff, I just find it entertaining. ;)

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:07 AM

One example, Mormon spouses are advised to divorce when one “falls away” from “the” church. Excommunication for having one’s own ecumenical mind severs family ties, as only those with temple recommends are considered “worthy” of permanent/eternal associations.
maverick muse on December 1, 2009 at 9:07 AM

This is blatantly untrue. My husband served in a bishopric. In the handbook it tells leaders to not advise people to divorce. This is a lie.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:13 AM

Revisionism: YOUR experience NOW hardly covers ALL. You face your own blatant faulty assumption.

Some yet believe that Truth is eternal, not temporary.

As if the latest handbook is not revised according to the latest revelation to fix the old revelation. Denial is your best bet, to deny that yesterday occurred? As if I don’t speak as one having authority; I know the truth. The truth shall set you free. Face your own faulty perfection without calling others who hold records liars for stating the uncomfortable truth of the matter.

maverick muse on December 1, 2009 at 10:14 AM

Without getting into Smith’s personal life…do you believe in the statement of Christian faith, the Nicene Creed?
And if you want a real true answer as to what is off-putting with living prophets…well just look at some of their history…the real history away from the LDS sites.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 10:07 AM

Like I asked you before, I would be super pleased if you could point out to me the part in the Bible where it says I must endorse the Nicene creed in order to be Christian- I am not aware of any commandments in that regard. I thought it was mostly about turning the other cheek, and praying for those who despitefully use you. I think the Nicene Creed has some very beautiful bits- I just don’t think all of it is correct, just like you don’t believe the Book of Mormon to be correct. We are more alike than different.

As for “real” Mormon History- history is usually subjective, isn’t it? You can read all kinds of things about History, and maybe it is true, maybe it isn’t. I will tell you one thing, one of my Great grandfathers was Wilford Woodruff. 4th President of the church. So for me, Church history is family history, and by all the accounts I have read, he said Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were pretty good men. Not perfect, mind you, but good.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:15 AM

Don’t you think that would be the most Christlike thing to do?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 9:59 AM

No, a “Christian” thing to do is be true to your faith…is to be honest.
Being “nice”, is not a substitute for being honest and forthright.
Christ was quite adamant about that, He was not a “nice guy”.
I am not asking if you have a problem, I have no problem with you accepting the Creed…just be honest about it and state, Mormon’s do not accept the Creed, therefore they are not Trinitarian’s, or they do not accept the fact of One God, that you have similarities with Christians, but you are not…accept that and be comfortable in your faith.
Don’t be dishonest and steal someone else’s faith and try to change it’s meaning…either accept it or accept yours.
Be comfortable that you are a Mormon, but you can’t be a Mormon and a Christian…as pointed out, and you agreed, they are different and have different beliefs…or profess your faith to Jesus Christ, repeat the Nicene Creed and I will see you in church Sunday, looking forward to it.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Main Entry: 1Chris·tian
Pronunciation: \ˈkris-chən, ˈkrish-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & noun, from Greek christianos, from Christos
Date: 1526
1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ b (1) : disciple 2 (2) : a member of one of the Churches of Christ separating from the Disciples of Christ in 1906 (3) : a member of the Christian denomination having part in the union of the United Church of Christ concluded in 1961
2 : the hero in Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress

Seems pretty simple to me, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In fact it sounds rather self explanitory.

Koa on December 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Maverick- did you used to be a Mormon? You sound like someone who used to be a Mormon, and didn’t like high standards the church set for the members. They are usually the angriest ones.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Mitt Romney, Glenn Beck and every other Mormon in the world is wrong on doctrine. Period. If I were voting for the Pastor of the United States, I’d have a problem. I’m voting for President. So, uh, whither this false dichotomy, Frum?

Why is it that pipsqueaks like David Frum have to continually make drama out of nothing to get themselves noticed?

Go away, Frum, you drama queen.

spmat on December 1, 2009 at 10:18 AM

No, your reading comp sucks…I stated quite plainly that it is a statement of faith adopted by Christians…not the only statement of faith, or the only words, but a statement of faith. And it was a challenge to Mormon’s to contradict it, since you are probably neither, butt out.
Show me the words “only way” in the context that I think that is the ultimate statement…heck just post where I even stated the “only way”, since you repeated it twice.

You said that Mormons could not be “real” Christians because – and this is the sole evidence you’ve provided – they don’t believe in the Nicene Creed. Therefore, one has to make the inference that Christians may be able to believe many things, but one thing they must all believe is the Nicene Creed. I think being a Christian means you believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

So you show me, instead of attacking personally, what is wrong with the Nicene Creed in relation to Christianity…do that without Googling your anti-Christian sites.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 9:59 AM

Nothing’s wrong with the Nicene Creed. I didn’t say anything’s wrong with it. I’m attacking you personally for saying stupid things, I don’t care about your religious beliefs.

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Really right to bright, it is you who are uncomfortable with Mormons being Christains, we are not uncomfortable at all with you being a Christians, except for the fact that your close mindedness will cost us the election if Romney turns up to be the nominee, which is the point of this thread. See, folks I am trying to stay on topic here.

For the record- I like Romney, but I would so love to vote for Sarah. I think a Romney/ Sarah or Sarah/Romney ticket would be unstoppable, if people could wrap their heads around that. Why not have both?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:22 AM

Proud Rino, you sir, are made of win.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:23 AM

Seems pretty simple to me, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In fact it sounds rather self explanitory.

Koa on December 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Yeah, me too, that’s always seemed pretty straightforward, but what we all just learned is, actually Christian means “You believe in the Nicene Creed, too,” which automatically invalidates any person who considered himself a Christian before 325, including Jesus Christ.

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 10:24 AM

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were pretty good men. Not perfect, mind you, but good.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:15 AM

Well, pedophile is not my gig…nor would I ever follow anyone that proposed and embraced child marriages…let alone marriages to already married women.
And no, in 1850 child marriages were more held in disdain then now…
As I stated, we have similarities…we are both Abrahamic religions, as are Jews and Muslims. We all have a similar history.
Of course the bible doesn’t say embrace the Nicene Creed, seeing as it was written in 300 AD, does it say follow the Book of Mormon? Don’t be foolish, it is a statement of faith that outlines the basic tenets of belief.
No one has ever said the Pledge of Allegiance is the only statement needed, but it out lines many Americans belief in the U.S.
The differences you point out would be…you don’t believe in one God (one essence)…you don’t believe in the trinity…Virgin Mary…one holy and apostolic church…one baptism…into heaven (we believe in only one heaven, not several)…those differences, make up the majority of this statement, which is why you and other Mormon’s can’t stake claim to being a Christian.
But that should be okay, you have your faith, I have mine and we can live in complete harmony…as long as you don’t try to take my religion, and I don’t try to steal yours.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM

someone who used to be a Mormon, and didn’t like high standards the church set for the members. They are usually the angriest ones.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM

LOL. The standard human response to criticism is self defense. The standard “Christian” response to criticism is the leap into self righteousness. Take a month to consider that your auto-response is to attack via denial of truth as it contrasts to dogma. Your social insecurities are understandable. Try some objectivity, and clean up your own emotional “angriest high standard” outburst.

maverick muse on December 1, 2009 at 10:35 AM

I think what the whole religion thing boils down to is this: Either you believe in a higher Being of some kind who has powers we don’t understand, or you don’t. Smart religious folks don’t discount the fact that the atheists may be right,
and the smart atheists don’t discount the fact that the religious people may be right. Since there are a lot of smart people on both sides of this debate, in order to get things done, we must look for things we all agree on and try to move forward in the most efficient way. So we rally around the party that is for freedom, small government, and the Constitution. I think we can all agree on that, yes? So let’s have a litmus test for those things- let’s see which candidate is for freedom.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:35 AM

Yeah, me too, that’s always seemed pretty straightforward, but what we all just learned is, actually Christian means “You believe in the Nicene Creed, too,” which automatically invalidates any person who considered himself a Christian before 325, including Jesus Christ.

Proud Rino on December 1, 2009 at 10:24 AM

Funny, you make those comments, but you never back them up with any facts…I never stated that.
I stated that in 300 AD a statement of faith was written, that defined better, and put to the end some bickering in the churches, it formulated their faith.
How more stupid of a post then what you post?
Tell me, in your church do they state the Nicene Creed?

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM

Of course the bible doesn’t say embrace the Nicene Creed, seeing as it was written in 300 AD, does it say follow the Book of Mormon? Don’t be foolish, it is a statement of faith that outlines the basic tenets of belief. rtb

Actually, there are things about the Book of Mormon in the Bible, in Isaiah it speaks of the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah, a stick, being a scroll of scripture. The stick of Judah is the Bible, obviously, and the stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon. I know you won’t accept that, but I’d love to hear what your interpretation of that particular passage of Isaiah is.

Your claim that I am trying to “steal” your church is the most interesting to me. I have had lots of epithets thrown at me in my time, but never that one- it is a fresh new one. Let me ask you, do you think that the Lutherans or the the other reformers “stole” the gospel from the Catholics? Because as far as I can tell, they had it first. Are all the Evangelical churches then bunk, because they “stole” the gospel?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:42 AM

Seems pretty simple to me, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In fact it sounds rather self explanitory.

Koa on December 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM

It usually is that simple – Occam’s Razor.

I see we have our two resident Mormonism experts back out in full glory. R2B is doing her standard shtick throwing out logical fallacies (like redefining a term “Christian”) to assume her predetermined conclusions. I have neither the time or interest to “educate” you again, because that doesn’t serve your crusade here to make your point at the expense of the truth (read: you don’t own/manipulate a definition of a term to fit an agenda).

Is that what they teach you Lutherans? I see you’re doing a swell job of practicing the teachings of Jesus Christ in not bearing false witness…

Keep up the good work! ;)

SkinnerVic on December 1, 2009 at 10:42 AM

For the record- I like Romney, but I would so love to vote for Sarah. I think a Romney/ Sarah or Sarah/Romney ticket would be unstoppable, if people could wrap their heads around that. Why not have both?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:22 AM

And look at my record, I always thought Romney would be a great VP or a high cabinet member…never the Pres. because he just doesn’t have what it takes, background, experience, personality, the “it” factor, to win a national election.
I never discounted him for being a Mormon, he seems like a great guy, just not a strong national contender…after spending record amount of money, he never could get over that lack of connection with people.
Romney would never support Palin, never, he never has, never will, she is much to personable, much to popular, his lack of “connection” with the public would be spotlighted. She pulls out all of Romney’s faults…she is a believer in Reagan, Romney was not…she is outspoken anti-abortion, he may or may not be, she is pro gun, he may or may not be…
He would make a good cabinet member…

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 10:43 AM

Right2bright- I really like you a lot. I wish more people were as faithful as you are. I am not being snarky, I mean it. Can you not concede even a little that there may be people other than yourself, and other than Nicene creed sayers, that believe that Jesus is the Lord, and that he died for sins? I believe in almost every other thing on your list, one baptism, the whole she-bang. Could you not even see a little how it might be that I consider myself to be born again?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:47 AM

R2B is doing her standard shtick throwing out logical fallacies (like redefining a term “Christian”) to assume her predetermined conclusions. I have neither the time or interest to “educate” you again,
SkinnerVic on December 1, 2009 at 10:42 AM

Yeah, I can just imagine where you got your definition of Christian…at the bottom of a hat looking through an oracle…
Btw, talking about predetermined conclusions…I am a he, funny how you predetermined that.
So tell me oh prophet of the ages, what do you use as a definition of Christian…any sentence with the word Jesus in it?
My definition comes from the bible, then boiled down to just a few sentences as a beginning statement of faith…pretty basic.
Not as fancy as pulling stones from a hat, with hieroglyphics proved to be phony, but good enough for me…

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 10:48 AM

Oh- I am fairly new here. Am I fighting a lose lose battle then, SkinnerVic?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:49 AM

Clearly, since people continue to attack Romney’s faith no matter what he says or does, he is too “divisive”. If you follow the logic of the Palin haters, the controversies that swirl around an individual that are started up and perpetuated by others are the result of that individual’s “divisiveness”. It is their fault.

Brian1972 on December 1, 2009 at 10:50 AM

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Regardless, when all is said and done, it is by faith in the Word made known to us as Jesus and His grace that we are saved from our worst nature. And faith without works is dead. Where Mormonism falls short admiring the Grace of our Lord, it would make up in faith expressed through works. Just as no one can effectively build a fence around “God”, no one can honestly judge in God’s name. Our judgments are all based upon our own experiences that do tend to warp from the urge to preen. Who among us can say that God will not save Mormons or Buddhists or Hindi or Muslims or Christians or Agnostics because of this or that? It’s no one’s place to pass judgment over the souls of others; Christ warned of that spiritual boomerang. We each have our own salvation to tend. If GRACE is all that it’s said to be, then let it be, grant peace and leave it in God’s hands to make what God will of us all.

maverick muse on December 1, 2009 at 10:50 AM

David Frum is such an attention whore. He is SO intent on being part of the discussion that he has to keep starting food fights just to stay relevant.

Piss off Frum. Nobody wants to hear your Rino musings.

portlandon on December 1, 2009 at 10:50 AM

Let me ask you, do you think that the Lutherans or the the other reformers “stole” the gospel from the Catholics? Because as far as I can tell, they had it first. Are all the Evangelical churches then bunk, because they “stole” the gospel?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:42 AM

That is a really good question.

Brian1972 on December 1, 2009 at 10:53 AM

Proud Rino, you sir, are made of win.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:23 AM

Did hell Freeze over? Are Pigs flying?

Do not feed Proud Rino, unless you are willing to pick up it’s droppings.

portlandon on December 1, 2009 at 10:54 AM

I believe in almost every other thing on your list, one baptism, the whole she-bang. Could you not even see a little how it might be that I consider myself to be born again?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:47 AM

You believe that people baptized in my church is every bit as baptized in the Mormon church? You believe in the Virgin Mary? One God in all of creation?
Of course if you believe that, with all your heart I hope…like I stated, you have your faith, I have mine.
You seem to be very misguided about the Christian faith…and apparently so am I about your faith, I never realized that Mormon’s accept baptism in my church is being that same, or that you now believe that their is only one God in all of creation. That is great and I really have not kept up with changes in your doctrine.
These are the steps that bring faiths together, Mormon’s accepting baptism by other Christians as being as valid as yours…great, that’s what it should be.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 10:56 AM

The thing that always amazes me is how the people who profess Jesus Christ and dislike Mormons are so easily led to discount anything “supernatural” that Joseph Smith may or may not have done. Don’t you see how that weakens your own argument R2B?
Jesus walked on water and made bread multiply. Moses had a stick that he could turn into a snake, and call water out of the ground with. The apostles did many miracles, healed the sick, etc. There are many accounts in the scriptures of prophets receiving revelations in miraculous ways. One of the reasons I am a Mormon, is that we still believe in miracles, revelations, etc. I find that in many churches, they profess to believe in God, but deny him His power. I would take a church that still had the power of God in it any day.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:57 AM

Proud Rino, you sir, are made of win.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:23 AM

Did hell Freeze over? Are Pigs flying?

Do not feed Proud Rino, unless you are willing to pick up it’s droppings.

portlandon on December 1, 2009 at 10:54 AM

Well, he was cracking me up, and when you are right, you are right.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 11:00 AM

I believe in almost every other thing on your list, one baptism, the whole she-bang. Could you not even see a little how it might be that I consider myself to be born again?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:47 AM

You believe that people baptized in my church is every bit as baptized in the Mormon church? You believe in the Virgin Mary? One God in all of creation?
Of course if you believe that, with all your heart I hope…like I stated, you have your faith, I have mine.
You seem to be very misguided about the Christian faith…and apparently so am I about your faith, I never realized that Mormon’s accept baptism in my church is being that same, or that you now believe that their is only one God in all of creation. That is great and I really have not kept up with changes in your doctrine.
These are the steps that bring faiths together, Mormon’s accepting baptism by other Christians as being as valid as yours…great, that’s what it should be.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 10:56 AM

Ok- I’ll take the bait. But I’ll answer your question with a question. What do you believe about the priesthood? What is it, who can hold it, what is it for, etc.?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Let me ask you, do you think that the Lutherans or the the other reformers “stole” the gospel from the Catholics? Because as far as I can tell, they had it first. Are all the Evangelical churches then bunk, because they “stole” the gospel?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 10:42 AM

That’s great question…Luther was a priest, and there were man created doctrines he did not agree with. In his 95 thesis he listed those, and over the few hundred years, the doctrines have basically been adopted by the Catholic Church…but the only religious argument, and I think a big one, but just one, was the one of Grace.
BTW, it would be reformation churches not Evangelical churches.
However, notice that the reformation churches kept the Nicene Creed and other statements of faith…it was more a difference in doctrine, not faith….you do understand the difference don’t you?
Let me explain in LDS terms…your doctrine states no polygamy…but your faith accepts it.
So you can move against the faith, as the Mormon’s have with polygamy, as doctrine, but still be faithful by not totally removing it as a statement of faith. Of course the advantage of a “living prophet” is that any given time you can have a message from God telling you to change the faith, as in accepting blacks into celestial heaven. So you can have a change in doctrine, but you also can have a change in faith…Christians don’t change their faith, we will always (if one wanders) go back to the bible as its foundation.
Of course some don’t, like Jim Jones group, and they follow that prophet…that doesn’t work so good.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 11:06 AM

It seems to me that the mere suggestion of a “Latter Day Saint” from the 1800′s being elevated to the equal of the prophets in the Bible is fundamentally offensive to many Christians, and those people refuse to accept the divinity of the “latter day” figures, and refuse the Christianity of their followers on that basis.

I’m no expert either way, but we do need to remember something very important.

All of us should unite to oppose the Church of Modern Day Obama. It is among us, these people have tried to take a leftist radical activist, who is just a man, and elevate him to the status of The Mocha Messiah. I’m not particularly religious, but this offends even me.

We must cleanse our nation of this strange cult running our government.

Brian1972 on December 1, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Avoiding sectarian conflict is just one part of the equation. America has, until very recently, prized the ‘thirst for righteousness’, the happy belief that in any situation there is a morally proper choice that makes a difference. And if you deny that optimist dynamic any seat in your tent, as some kind of abomination, then you leave it free for the Left to claim it.

Chris_Balsz on December 1, 2009 at 11:13 AM

Ok- I’ll take the bait. But I’ll answer your question with a question. What do you believe about the priesthood? What is it, who can hold it, what is it for, etc.?

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Don’t know, I don’t think much about it…because I have such a strong belief in the Grace of God, I don’t pay much attention to this…and since I don’t believe in three levels of heaven, it is even less concern to me. And even worse to Mormon’s, I have no problem with women having high offices or “officaldom” in church’s.
Funny you didn’t correct me or accept as fact that Mormon’s consider baptism by the Catholics or Methodists just as valid…see, that is the problem with Mormon’s when pinned down regarding their real faith, they try to squirm out of it.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 11:14 AM

So you admit that it is ok for Christians with one faith in Jesus Christ to have differences in doctrine? Then you should have no problem with my Mormon faith. And Evangelical churches came from reformation churches. If you don’t understand that, you have some reading to do. I have great respect for the Reformation. I think they were inspired, and on the right track, and set the stage for the gospel to be restored to it’s full measure.

Oh go on try the polygamy schtick. It is the fall back when the other arguments don’t stick. You can’t argue polygamy with me- like I said, my grandfather was Wilford Woodruff- he wasn’t just a polygamist, he was THE polygamist, srsly. lol. We don’t practice polygamy anymore because it is against the law of the land- And in our articles of faith, you will see where Mormons always obey the laws of the land. In fact, polygamy is NOT in the articles of faith, which were written out by Joseph Smith, so it is neither here nor there.

Anyway, I can see the conversation is over, since straws are being grasped at. Likening nice, regular Mormons ( do you know any actual Mormons?) to Jim Jones followers is rude and repulsive, and a very uneducated thing to say. Our current prophet, Thomas S. Monson, is a veteran, and is particularly well known for his kindness to widows and strangers.
Thank you for your time, R2B. My suggestion? Make some friends outside your obviously tiny circle. Learn about the faith and beliefs of others. Sit down with publicans and sinners and find out what makes them tick. You might find it enjoyable, and you may even learn something.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 11:20 AM

The Bible Study War will never end.

On a positive note, unlike the Koran Study Wars, we are not beheading each other over a 1,000 year old sentence.

Good for us!

Brian1972 on December 1, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Brian1972- Mormons find the opposite thought even more strange- why would a God that is the same all the time, have prophets then and not prophets now? It is inconsistent. People like to have their prophets comfortably in the ancient past, not alive now, and telling you to clean up your act and be nicer to your family, like they did at our current conference.

That being said, I am right there with you, man.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 11:23 AM

That being said, I am right there with you, man.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 11:23 AM

These doctrinal debates can be interesting from my point of view, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that there is a powerful secularist movement in this nation today that sees no difference between you ,and R2B, because you both oppose their agenda to remove faith from public life entirely.

This angers me from a Constitutional perspective more than a religious one. I’m all for the Freedom of Religion, not the Freedom from Religion, as written by the Founding Fathers.

Surely when it comes time to vote, these truths will unite the various doctrines into political activism against the common enemy to freedom that we face.

Brian1972 on December 1, 2009 at 11:29 AM

Exactly. A government who can take your religion can take anything they want.

I think people should be allowed to believe what they want. Any dang thing. The founders knew what they were about. I think it is really about those who trust the founders, and those who think they are smarter than the founders. We all know idiots like this- who think they know everything. Mr. Obama and his ilk are all like that. They know what is best for us.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 11:33 AM

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 11:33 AM

We all may have religious differences, but what unites us all is the Constitution of the United States, and the fact that the enemies of the Constitution are now empowered to alter or circumvent the rights enumerated, because those rights are obstacles to their expansion of control over everyone’s lives, regardless of who was a prophet and who was not.

When the time comes we will all move as one to the ballot box and stop this crippling of freedom.

Brian1972 on December 1, 2009 at 11:42 AM

…Good thing Romney gave his speech last year and cleared up all this nonsense, otherwise can you imagine the doctrinal arguments that might occur?

Koa on December 1, 2009 at 11:42 AM

So much for the standard of Freedom of Religion! Most of the Founders were Deists, weren’t they? Masons who recognized God as Creator, not bound by Human understanding or beliefs. It is a personal discovery that as individuals we must make: Life is a blessing as much as a curse, so there has to be a ‘reason’ for our existence on a plane beyond all other species on this planet.

klickink.wordpress.com on December 1, 2009 at 11:43 AM

If GRACE is all that it’s said to be, then let it be, grant peace and leave it in God’s hands to make what God will of us all.

maverick muse on December 1, 2009 at 10:50 AM

I never said Mormon’s or anyone else won’t make into heaven…that is God’s Grace. And “works” is defined by His Grace. It is disgusting that a church would refuse “membership” because they don’t follow the “works” rules.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Calm down honey, I wasn’t dissing the polygamy thing, I was pointing out where faith and doctrine don’t always coincide. That is where the “victim” stuff flys out of your posts. And look again at the polygamy deal, it is still there (The Doctrine and Covenants SECTION 132), so don’t run from the truth, embrace it.
Yes, I do know Mormon’s, more then you think. Ever been to the Temple in San Diego? Beautiful baptismal bowl the carved oxen is awesome, the picture of Jesus with all solar system surrounding it is beautiful, ever been in the temple in Los Angeles?…my son’s best man was Mormon…happy to say was, his family, a life long, with a history similar to yours, decided to become Christian just a few months ago. We had known them and been best friends for decades. It was so difficult, and still is, the acrimony of them leaving LDS is unbelievable, but they are satisfied with their faithful decision. You don’t know hate, until you leave the Mormon church. I have lived within the Mormon community for many, many years.
I am sure your new living prophet is a good man…I was once again, was just saying living prophets can be dangerous. That Christian’s have not had much success with “prophets”, you (with the exception of Smith and Young) have had mixed results. No different from the modern Popes, great men that generally make wise decisions. I just don’t ascribe to the theory that God provides an unbroken chain of living prophets…back to work, good day and May God bless you…or from your standpoint May the God’s bless you…

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 11:53 AM

Surely when it comes time to vote, these truths will unite the various doctrines into political activism against the common enemy to freedom that we face.

Brian1972 on December 1, 2009 at 11:29 AM

It is only a side debate…born from one religion trying to co-opt another…but it had no real basis in accepting or rejecting Romney. Some may have rejected him, and other embraced him…but by and large he just can’t “connect” with the voters, for whatever reason.
Obama, unfortunately connected, so we not only have to come up with someone that reflects our conservative nature, but also has that “it” factor to bring in the votes.
Huck was the same thing, I would choose Romney over Huck any day of the week, even Sunday.
So I guess that make me bias against Christians now.
That was what made Reagan so unusual, the perfect storm, media savvy, intelligent, connected with the people, and distanced himself from the elites…even though he was from them.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 11:59 AM

I find the anti-Mormon bigotry expressed here appalling. I have had the pleasure of knowing and serving with many fine Mormon folks during my career. The Constitution I swore to protect and defend didn’t promote a religious test for national office. In fact, it forbade it.

Some commenters here should be ashamed of themselves. Do you think The Christ was in favor of this type of hate, fear and discrimination?

I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me–and I in him–bears much fruit, because apart from me you can accomplish nothing (John 15:1, 5).

MCPO Airdale on December 1, 2009 at 12:11 PM

It’s not easy for Romney to be a Mormon after all. Not only is it tough politics but he has to accept as fact that the American Indians are all Hebrews by descent. Not easy in this day and age of DNA research.

(Hint: There’s not a molecule of Hebrew DNA in any pre-Columbian Native Americans.)

Mojave Mark on November 30, 2009 at 11:19 PM

Here’s a special treat for you.

You can educate yourself about the DNA issue by watching two short you tube videos here and here.

You can also do some reading by reading these links:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/dna-and-the-book-of-mormon

Conservative Samizdat on December 1, 2009 at 12:16 PM

Conservatives have to get out of peoples personal lives and every plank of the GOP platform must be free of hypocrisy.
If we are the values and principles party, we have to mean it, speak it and live it.
At no point or time can we afford to be accused of do as I say not as I do.

“However, on religious issues there can be little or no compromise.
There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious
beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than
Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme
being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God’s name on one’s
behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are
growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with
wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following
their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups
on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a
loss of money or votes or both. I’m frankly sick and tired of the
political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if
I want to be a moral person, I must believe in ‘A,’ ‘B,’ ‘C,’ and ‘D.’
Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to
claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even
more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every
religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my
vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today:
I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their
moral convictions to all Americans in the name of ‘conservatism.’ ”
Barry Goldwater

What a crybaby. ‘Sit down! Shut up! Your votes are mine, your money is mine! No strings! I’m sick of hearing what you think I oughta do!’ Good riddance to him.

Chris_Balsz on December 1, 2009 at 3:46 AM

Thanks, for proving my point. Pure projection.

What I’m such a crybaby. ‘Sit down! Shut up! Your votes souls are mine, your money tenets is mine! No strings only Christian dogma! I’m sick of hearing what you I think I you oughta do!’ Good riddance to him to me.

Speakup on December 1, 2009 at 12:18 PM

Please PLEASE for the sake of all that’s holy- STOP DEBATING RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE ON A POLITICAL BLOG. Right2bright, kristamatic, shut the hell up. What mormons believe or what evangelicals believe is irrelevant. Right2bright, how much did you get involved with prop 8? Donate any time or money to fight the good fight? If not, get the hell off the comments section! Render unto cesaer means politics and RELIGION are to be kept apart. There is a difference between morality and a religious set of doctrine. And for all you mormons bearing your testimony to the heathens-STOP. This is for political discussion. You shouldn’t give a damn that these “Christians” are willing to judge you as not Christian.

drballard on December 1, 2009 at 12:20 PM

Both McCain and Huckabee played the anti-Mormon card. Conservatives need to face the harsh reality, that this bigotry exists in our party.

Dr B on December 1, 2009 at 12:24 PM

Ok Dr. B, I will quiet myself. I was only playing along for the fun- and to prove a point. I really don’t care what anyone thinks, but it is interesting to see what folks will say when questioned a little isn’t it? They will say, oh I am not a bigot- I have no problem with Mormons, and then you question them a little, and all kinds of ridiculous hate and lies come spewing out. This is indeed a political problem. If Romney becomes the nominee, as he very well might, with his financial background, and how the GOP likes to let people take turns, if we, as a group do not figure out how to get some of these close minded people to listen to themselves, we are going to have four more years of Mr.Obama, and I don’t think anyone here wants that.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 12:32 PM

The anti-Mormon sentiment comes from evil leaders like Huckabee and McCain who use it to stir up hatred. It’s the same kind of dirty politics that leads some Palin supporters to unfairly attack “Romneycare” or his abortion record. Frankly I don’t see why they would stoop to religious bigotry when it is so easy to attack Romney in those other places. Just yesterday I noticed that every thread on Free Republic had an ad that said of Romney: “Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise, this is the creepy smiling face of an evil baby killing butcher!”

Now that’s the kind of dirty politics we expect of conservatives!

Dr B on December 1, 2009 at 12:37 PM

Exactly. I think Romney should be given the same pass that Regan was- he was allowed to evolve in his thought on abortion. Why the purity test for Romney? because he is a mormon pure and simple.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 12:39 PM

Being a conservative in America traditionally has meant that one holds a deep, abiding respect for the Constitution. We conservatives believe sincerely in the integrity of the Constitution. We treasure the freedoms that document protects. By maintaining the separation of church and state, the United States has avoided the intolerance which has so divided the rest of the world with religious wars. Can any of us refute the wisdom of Madison and the other framers?

The religious factions will go on imposing their will on others, less the decent people connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public policy. They must learn to make their views known without trying to make their views the only alternatives. We have succeeded for over 200 years in keeping the affairs of state separate from the uncompromising idealism of religious groups and we mustn’t stop now. To retreat from that separation would violate the principles of conservatism and the values upon which the framers built this democratic republic.
- Barry Goldwater

MB4 on December 1, 2009 at 12:39 AM

I love Barry Goldwater, but I must admonish him to pick up a copy of the constitution and reread it. In fact, I would recommend the same for many here at Hotair, including our beloved AP. The phrase “seperation between church and state” is not actually in the Constitution of the United States of America. The First Amendment actually states the following:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Notice that it says Congress shall make neither a law respecting an establishment of religion nor a law to prohibit the free exercise of the religion (ie, prohibiting prayer in school). Respecting an establishment would be making laws that benefit only one religion to the detriment of others. In otherwords, we cannot have a theocracy. To state that this means that religion has no place in government is wishful thinking and can only be supported through spinning the meaning of Thomas Jefferson’s letter to a concerned group of citizens. I quote:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.]* Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

*Note: The section in block quotes was deleted in the final draft because it concerned Jefferson’s personal opinions and because he did not wish to offend other members of his party.

As you can see here, Jefferson is merely reassuring that Congress can only reach actions, not opinion. He then goes on to restate what the Constitution says about respecting a specific establishment or prohibiting free exercise of it. This is very limiting in scope.

What the left has construed this passage to say is that religion and government must be separated. However, that is not at all what Jefferson is trying to convey. He simply wanted people to know that the state cannot stop them from practicing or coerce them through law to practice as certain religious sect.

If we were to take the Liberal (and Goldwater’s) translation of Jefferson’s letter we would have to do away with the Declaration of Independence as one of our founding documents as it states the following:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Is it any wonder who “their Creator” refers to in the very next paragraph? Of course it is God (though not specified to be the Christian God in the actual document itself).

I do not say all of this to force a belief of religion upon someone else, but merely as a plea to stop using Jefferson’s letter as the basis for court actions and laws that would violate the true meaning of the Fist Amendment. This is extrememly important in the coming Christmas season as lawsuits will be sent trying to use the government to force people/businesses/or even the government itself to remove Christmas decorations or wishes of Merry Christmas. The Goverment cannot legally force anyone to remove such things.

The same would be true of Atheist writings, posters, sign, ect…

So in conclusion, remember that the implied seperation of church and state was to protect religions from the laws that would attack them, not the other way around.

Pattosensei on December 1, 2009 at 1:07 PM

I find the anti-Mormon bigotry expressed here appalling.
MCPO Airdale on December 1, 2009 at 12:11 PM

Anti Mormon bigotry and disagreement are not the same…just thought you should be reminded of that…

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 1:27 PM

Right2bright, how much did you get involved with prop 8? Donate any time or money to fight the good fight?
drballard on December 1, 2009 at 12:20 PM

So that is your litmus test, how much money someone gave to prop. 8…good how many families have you fed lately? How many recovery groups have you led lately? How many homeless have you counseled, fed, clothed, prepared for work, lately? Meanwhile you are talking about prop 8, from a state that is morally and financially bankrupt.
Politics and religion are tied forever together in America…that’s what it is founded upon.
Funny how I had a reasonable discussion, and you came along and stirred the pot.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 1:33 PM

Why the purity test for Romney? because he is a mormon pure and simple.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 12:39 PM

But it was more then that…pro- or anti gun was another waffle…health care, another waffle…running away from being a conservative, another waffle…stem cell research, another waffle…none of these had to do with being a Mormon, it had to be about him not being a conservative, and waffling.
The challenge I through down, last year, was for him to show us for one year true conservative political values…he could have said “My health care was an experiment, I thought it would work, I was wrong”, instead he defends his poor decision.
If he could show us for one year that he is a conservative, then we wouldn’t have to question his credentials…where is his public support for Palin?

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 1:38 PM

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am a Christian. I know it, and God knows it. Ultimately, that’s all that matters.

Still, for someone to claim that I am not a Christian is false and offensive. It matters to me because my devotion to Christ is part of my identity. It’s who I am.

There are more than 13 million Latter-day Saints in the world today. Every year the Church baptizes approximately a quarter million living, breathing human beings, every single one of whom, if you were to ask them, would say, “I am a Christian. I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I believe He died for my sins and I believe He was resurrected. I believe the only way I can be saved is through His grace, wrought through His atoning sacrifice.”

Those who still insist, after knowing that 13 million Latter-day Saints bear their own personal witness of Christ as I have done, that Latter-day Saints are not Christians are anti-Mormon bigots. There is no other way to describe them.

It has been said that we shouldn’t care whether others think we are not Christians. But I do care. It is a vicious lie and those who perpetrate this lie will one day stand before God and will have to give an accounting to Him of why they did so.

Eichendorff on December 1, 2009 at 1:45 PM

Funny, I’ve never heard of the Nicene Creed and never knew that there was a litmus test such as this for being Christian. I also don’t understand this concept of somebody stealing a religion from another, such as Mormon’s ‘stealing’ Christianity from christians, it’s a simple case of doctrinal differences and beliefs from the same source, that’s the gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John in relation to the teachings of Jesus Christ, as well as the rest of the new testament.

I’m not a religious scholar, so I’m not going to debate this topic with what makes a Christian a Christian, but stop talking this crap of ‘Mormon’s stealing Christianity and calling it their own’. Christians still have Christianity, that’s the beauty of freedom of religion. You’re free to believe what you want to believe, and there are thousands of religions to choose from.

And yes, this is a political blog, not a place for religious discourse. I am not going to bash anybody for believing what they believe, I just claim the privelege of worshipping the almighty God according to the dictates of my own conscious, which allows all men the same privelege; let them worship how, where or what they may. If people would respect other people’s religious beliefs and didn’t try to say how they’re right and you’re wrong, the world would be a much better place.

And no, I don’t see religion as a litmus test for who I am going to vote for, rather I would look at how a politician uses their religious beliefs to govern and how such beliefs influence their political platform. Some religious beliefs might be positive, others not so much.

I could care less about Palin, Huckabee or Romney’s religious backgrounds and what their religious beliefs are. I see them as all Christians, just different brands of christians, and probably good people for it. I’m more interested in their actions as politicians, and of the three, I’m most excited by Palin. Romney’s to much of a Rino for me. We’ll see who else gets on the Radar by 2012.

risawn on December 1, 2009 at 1:55 PM

It is a vicious lie and those who perpetrate this lie will one day stand before God and will have to give an accounting to Him of why they did so.

Eichendorff on December 1, 2009 at 1:45 PM

Did you ever stop to think that it is “vicious” to claim something you are not?
All I ask, is that for over 1,700 years, since 300ad a simple statement of faith, it envelops the basic concepts, the foundation of Christian faith has been used by Christians to define those tenets…For 1,700 years those have been attacked by non-Christians, every non-Christian group attacks that Nicene Creed (and other similar), if you accept those very basic tenets, then you have indeed laid the foundation of being a Christian….however, if you do not accept it, then please, call yourselves what you must. Words do mean something, co-opting a religion and it’s faith is serious to many.

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 2:07 PM

The Nicene Creed did not exist for the first three centuries of the Christian era. There is not a scrap of support for it in the Bible. It was voted on at the Council of Nicea and there were obviously Christians in attendance who did not accept it and who voted against it. They just got outvoted. I have never been of the opinion that the nature of God could be decided upon by taking a poll.

I am the world’s authority who I am and what I believe. I am a Christian, and nobody, not even you, Not-Too-Bright, can take that away from me.

Eichendorff on December 1, 2009 at 2:21 PM

Yes, Brother Eichendorff, but she can take away the election if Romney is the nominee. She will cut off her nose to spite her face.

Kristamatic on December 1, 2009 at 2:33 PM

Eichendorff on December 1, 2009 at 2:21 PM

I think you need some polishing of Christian history…it wasn’t a matter of a “vote”. The basic tenets were not in question (however I guess a “controversy” is never by definition settled), it was the specific wording. But the understanding of the wording was in agreement.
And I am sure there were some who didn’t like what was stated, just like some don’t believe we landed on the moon, or that Elvis is actually dead, or that Obama is helping the economy…there are always minor disagreements.
I personally would not like someone to call me a liberal, I guess by your definition, Pelosi could be called a conservative and you would accept that.
There is nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe in…that is why we have the term RINO, so I guess you could say Mormon’s are CINO’s?

There is not a scrap of support for it in the Bible

Imagine, after 1,700 years, you are the one person who discovered that it had no biblical support…you are the only one…all the millions of doctors of theology, all the millions of pastors, the millions who have stated that creed every Sunday for 1,700 years, and not one scrap of evidence that supports it…
“We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible…”
That’s how it starts out, and you say not one scrap of evidence in the bible supports that?….okay

right2bright on December 1, 2009 at 2:36 PM

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