Three Navy SEALs court-martialed after giving most-wanted Iraqi terrorist a fat lip

posted at 5:32 pm on November 24, 2009 by Allahpundit

Looks awful, but I’m suspicious that it’s as bad as it seems given Fox’s misleading headline: “Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist.” That makes it sound like the act of capturing him is the offense here, which would be insane even by the Army’s Nidal-Hasan standards of political correctness.

But that’s not what happened. They’re being charged for allegedly giving him a beating and covering it up.

Navy SEALs have secretly captured one of the most wanted terrorists in Iraq — the alleged mastermind of the murder and mutilation of four Blackwater USA security guards in Fallujah in 2004. And three of the SEALs who captured him are now facing criminal charges, sources told FoxNews.com…

Ahmed Hashim Abed, whom the military code-named “Objective Amber,” told investigators he was punched by his captors — and he had the bloody lip to prove it…

[A SEAL witness] told investigators he had showered after the mission, gone to the kitchen and then decided to look in on the detainee.

“I gave the detainee a glance over and then left,” the SEAL wrote. “I did not notice anything wrong with the detainee and he appeared in good health.”…

United States Central Command declined to discuss the detainee, but a legal source told FoxNews.com that the detainee was turned over to Iraqi authorities, to whom he made the abuse complaints. He was then returned to American custody. The SEAL leader reported the charge up the chain of command, and an investigation ensued.

I like Goldfarb’s take: “A fat lip? That’s enough to get you rough military justice from the Obama administration, but blow up the World Trade Center and you get all the due process rights of the civilian criminal justice system.” Even so, the fact that this turd got the Iraqi authorities involved may have left Central Command with little choice here. The last thing the military needs right now is another detainee-abuse headache, especially with some Iraqi pols already leaning on them about withdrawal. Giving the SEALs a zero-tolerance wrist slap reminds other troops not to do anything more seriously stupid that might be exploited politically. And it will be a wrist slap, I’m sure: The last thing The One needs after shipping KSM off to NYC for his close-up is the image of SEALs being hauled off to prison for busting some jihadi in the face. In fact, according to Fox, the SEALs requested a court-martial rather than nonjudicial punishment, presumably because they know full well how awful this looks for the military. Prediction: Wrist slap.


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4

Jesus, you people are ridiculous.

If the SEALs mishandled a detainee, they should be held accountable. All this “they should have cut his throat” is childish crap. I’m sure the court martial will throw some light on the situation. All of you who want to make excuses for detainee mistreatment – would you kindly go f*ck yourselves? The U.S. should be held to a higher standard. If anyone has a problem with that, fair enough, go ahead and whine about it. And when you’re done with that, you can explain how it’s okay for police to arrest an Ivy League professor in his own home. Crybabies.

You people are acting like Allahpundit is somehow a Kos fellow traveler now. Grow up.

Enrique on November 25, 2009 at 9:29 AM

I, for one, am tired of the “higher standard” excuse for the tactics that bring the decline of the nation. Bottom line, you combat violence with even greater violence. If this concept upsets you, too bloody bad.

As for the non-sequitur of an “Ivy League professor,” The Won had the “beer summit,” problem solved. That argument has been rendered moot.

I complain, not “whine,” complain about AP’s mind set it is because he is becoming a Kossack. Progression is slow, but definite. So, if a terrorist is given a fat lip, sucks to be him. As it seems it sucks to be AP and you.

p.s. don’t bother responding, I’m not listening.

TwinkietheKid on November 25, 2009 at 9:57 AM

The U.S. should be held to a higher standard.

Enrique on November 25, 2009 at 9:29 AM

I hear this all the time from people like you and apologists like Barry, and I have no idea what this means. A higher standard of what? And is this why the terrorists hate us? Because we don’t comport ourselves in accordance to some mythical “higher standard”? And do you think if we were held to this mythical “higher standard” the violence against us would stop? What evidence is there that holding to this mythical “higher standard” is effective in fighting terrorists?

Fed45 on November 25, 2009 at 10:13 AM

Never send Navy SEALS to do a Boy Scouts job!

cartooner on November 25, 2009 at 10:15 AM

Why not serve terrorists milk and cookies…say just before we execute…the heinous act of Mirandizing them? I’ll bet you just thought I was going to say shoot them in the head when no one is looking.

Nalea on November 25, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Oh dear limited war rubbish again, higher standard of behaviour what a load of tosh, these people when they capture our soldiers kill them in a terrible way, we don’t do that to them, there you go, thats a higher standard, now under the Geneva convention these people can be shot out of hand actually, but we do not…

TrueBrit on November 25, 2009 at 10:41 AM

Break the rules, deal with the consequences. I just hope the consequences include a cushy position with Blackwater and a free week in Vegas.

spmat on November 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

I hear this all the time from people like you and apologists like Barry, and I have no idea what this means. A higher standard of what? And is this why the terrorists hate us? Because we don’t comport ourselves in accordance to some mythical “higher standard”? And do you think if we were held to this mythical “higher standard” the violence against us would stop? What evidence is there that holding to this mythical “higher standard” is effective in fighting terrorists?

Fed45 on November 25, 2009 at 10:13 AM

Actually, a “higher standard” is necessary for counterinsurgency. I’m a military neophyte and even I know that much. Just draw a comparison to the elite, professional army of today and the army of Vietnam. I guarantee you will find it has improved quite a bit from the rampant drug use, civilian killings at the drop of a hat, and fragging.

Not to denigrate the service of those who were in Vietnam, but nobody can argue that there were a lot of terrible things going on at that time – because the Army wasn’t as disciplined.

Black Yoshi on November 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

Sorry, Army should have been capitalized.

Black Yoshi on November 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

, for one, am tired of the “higher standard” excuse for the tactics that bring the decline of the nation. Bottom line, you combat violence with even greater violence. If this concept upsets you, too bloody bad.

For those who think that cops and military don’t hold themselves to a “higher standard” when they are put into situations such as these, I most strongly recommend that you get yourself down to your local police station and ask to go on a ridealong. Ask to ride along in the most crime ridden neighborhood they have. That way you greatly increase your odds of seeing a situation such as the one the Seals found themselves in. Then come back and tell me whether the arrestee got a fat lip and, most importantly, whether the police used too much force in executing the arrest. Your eyes will be opened.

Admittedly, there are people out there who shouldn’t be in the military or on a police force, but those situations in which the the “higher standard” is not met are far fewer than most people think. The vast majority of the cops I worked with were highly professional and, though tempted, would not go over the line in use of force.

NavyMustang on November 25, 2009 at 10:43 AM

May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won’t.
- General George Patton Jr

If we don’t get back to this way of thinking, we will lose this war.

labrat on November 25, 2009 at 10:45 AM

labrat on November 25, 2009 at 10:45 AM

I prefer:

It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.

General Patton was America’s Sun-Tzu.

Holger on November 25, 2009 at 10:51 AM

Anybody ever notice that the number of terrorist prisoners doesn’t seem to be growing? I think our guys are seeing the folly in the idea of “bringing terrorists to justice.” I think they are more likely to introduce them to their Maker.

Star20 on November 25, 2009 at 10:57 AM

This, along with the NY Terror Trials, is starting to remind me of a scene in the movie “Aliens.”

At the strat of the movie, a squad of Marines has to track down lost colonists who have been abducted by some very ugly ET’s. When it is realized that the colonists..and the monsters…are located in the middle of a nuclear cooling system, the Marines are ordered to unload their weapons so that they don’t cause any damage. This leads to the memorable line, “What the hell are we supposed to use, man? Harsh language?”

That’s how all of this is feeling right now.

And I wouldn’t be surprised to see Courts Martial for harsh langauge in the near future.

Abelard on November 25, 2009 at 10:58 AM

Okay so they refused Article 15 punishment, which is when you essentially plead guilty and the CO can impose extremely minor punishment. You only request Court Martial when you A)Think your CO is prejudiced against you, or B) you think you were innocent or that a trial with legal counsel will get you off. Do we know what kind of CM they’re getting? Unless otherwise advised I’d believe they’re only getting Summary, the lowest level. Here’s a….*ahem* summary of what they’re looking at in punishment, max:

In a Summary Court-Martial, the maximum punishment that may be imposed depends upon the rank of the accused. For an enlisted accused in the payrade of E-5 and above, the accused may be reduced one pay-grade, be restricted for a period of 60 days, and face a forfeiture of two-thirds of basic pay for one month. For an accused in the rank of E-4 and below, the accused may be sentenced to confinement for up to 30 days, hard labor without confinement for a period of 45 days, restriction for a period of 60 days, reduction to the paygrade of E-1 and forfeiture of two-thirds of basic pay for one month. An accused has an absolute right to refuse trial by Summary Court–Martial. Generally speaking, only relatively minor offenses are taken to Summary Court–Martial. A benefit to the accused to accept the Summary Court-Martial is that this Court has no power to adjudge a punitive discharge in any case and is not considered a federal conviction, unless the accused is represented by an attorney at the Summary Court-Martial. Although the Summary Court-Martial Officer that is appointed to hear the case may have absolutely no prior legal experience or training, he is tasked with responsibilities to perform a multi-functional role, that of the judge, the prosecutor and the defense counsel. A Summary Court-Martial is a Court of Law and as such, the rules of evidence and procedures that are applicable to Special and General Court-Martials are equally applicable at a Summary Court-Marital. This can make for a rather difficult situation, since the Summary Court-Marital Officer may have no legal experience whatsoever, but he is in effect considered as a judicial officer for purposes of the trial and is obligated to comply with the applicable procedural rules, as well as the Military Rules of Evidence.

If this is a Summary CM, they aren’t going to prison, anyway. Max a month in the Brig (Brig=jail vs a penitentiary like Leavenworth)

The other levels of Court Martial, and the max penalties, are described at this link:
http://www.militarylawyers.org/court-martial-levels-difference.htm

quikstrike98 on November 25, 2009 at 11:05 AM

Many have said before. The only thing they should have captured was a corpse. Its not like we are allowed to really interrogate him. Apply the dreaded non venomous ladybug then we will see how much info he spills. Worst administration ever.

Greed on November 25, 2009 at 11:21 AM

If the SEALs mishandled a detainee, they should be held accountable. All this “they should have cut his throat” is childish crap. I’m sure the court martial will throw some light on the situation. All of you who want to make excuses for detainee mistreatment – would you kindly go f*ck yourselves? The U.S. should be held to a higher standard. If anyone has a problem with that, fair enough, go ahead and whine about it. And when you’re done with that, you can explain how it’s okay for police to arrest an Ivy League professor in his own home. Crybabies.
You people are acting like Allahpundit is somehow a Kos fellow traveler now. Grow up.
Enrique on November 25, 2009 at 9:29 AM

that’s the stupidest thing I’ve read in a while and that’s saying something

A fat lip……

On a savage animal that happens to follow the lib lifepreserver of complain as soon as one is caught of abuse.

Being part of a lib ideal always leaves one weak, in this case supposed bloodthirsty, savage animals are reduced to whining babies like other liberals upon capture when they use the agrieved and abused tactics provided by libs

yep, illegal combatants are subject to summary execution upon capture, yet libbys have forgotten any history of this and asigned their own so they can protect vast areas of despotism since is how their power is derived

the commies cannot allow people to take care of themselves

And Enrique is just another one of the deluded masses parroting garbage

I wonder what Enrique does and would feel the same if he was handcuffed and thrown into the water?

Sonosam on November 25, 2009 at 11:45 AM

If the SEALs mishandled a detainee, they should be held accountable.

A ticker tape parade, medals of honor, trips to Disneyland.

A firm handshake and a hearty slap on the back.

BTW; can I give the terrorist a swift kick in the ass also?

Kini on November 25, 2009 at 11:55 AM

May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won’t.
- General George Patton Jr
If we don’t get back to this way of thinking, we will lose this war.

labrat on November 25, 2009 at 10:45 AM

Thanks for great quote worth repeating

I might have to court martial them, but then I would shake their hands for having the self control to not kill the guy.

A bloody lip. How horrifying.

Jumping from the upper floor of a burning WTC. Nothing here folks. Keep moving. We have a State dinner to attend

I once was stuck at a bus stop with an unusual old man, who was carrying a bundle tied on a stick like an old style hobo. He started talking about his life under communism, just after WWII. He told me “the communists are not satisfied until everyone is dead, and then they will stand on the top of the mountain and cheer”

Obama will not be satisfied until he has crushed every American institution to dust, and then he will stand on the mountain and cheer

entagor on November 25, 2009 at 11:56 AM

Munchausen-By-Proxy Military-By-Pussy Syndrome.

The Obama variant.

Even if we lose a little intel, just shoot the s.o.b.’s from now on, until the ROE’s are returned to sanity.

This ridiculous self-castration of our forces will only get more of our people killed.

Don’t give terrorists a fat lip, give them a new hole in their skull, if not twenty.

Avoids lawyers and show trials.

profitsbeard on November 25, 2009 at 11:58 AM

yep, illegal combatants are subject to summary execution upon capture, yet libbys have forgotten any history of this and asigned their own so they can protect vast areas of despotism since is how their power is derived

On December 18, 1944, 3 German soldiers participating in Col Otto Skorzeny’s “Operation GREIF” were captured wearing American uniforms (making them illegal combatants) in the Ardennes forest. On Christmas Day, 1944, seven days after capture, all three were executed by firing squad, after facing court martial. We have lost our way since then…

quikstrike98 on November 25, 2009 at 12:01 PM

Those SEALS should be subjected to a Military Tribunal!

Daggett on November 24, 2009 at 5:39 PM

I think they should be subjected to a ticker tape parade.

jimmy2shoes on November 25, 2009 at 12:01 PM

Apply the dreaded non venomous ladybug then we will see how much info he spills. Worst administration ever.

Greed on November 25, 2009 at 11:21 AM

That just galls me. Lady bugs are torture. (rolls eyes) If that’s torture, my kid tortures himself all the time.

jimmy2shoes on November 25, 2009 at 12:04 PM

I guarantee you will find it has improved quite a bit from the rampant drug use, civilian killings at the drop of a hat, and fragging.

Not to denigrate the service of those who were in Vietnam, but nobody can argue that there were a lot of terrible things going on at that time – because the Army wasn’t as disciplined.

Black Yoshi on November 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

What’s your source for ‘civilian killings AT THE DROP OF A HAT’ ??

You ARE denigrating every soldier, sailor, airman and Marine who served in that God-forsaken country. You’re denigrating ME–I’m not important but those sixty thousand men and eight women on ‘Mall Wall’ deserve better than what you posted

Janos Hunyadi on November 25, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Should have wasted him on site to avoid this whole situation.
That’s my 20/20 hindsight, yadda, yadda.

Geronimo on November 25, 2009 at 12:31 PM

I’m not terribly troubled by the fat lip itself. But if you are part of the Navy and your CO tells you to treat your prisoners without violence then you better not beat up the guy you just captured, no matter how you feel about him or the order not to rough him up. And if you disobey an order there should be consequences. Am I really off track here?

factoid on November 25, 2009 at 12:34 PM

If we don’t get back to this way of thinking, we will lose this war.

labrat on November 25, 2009 at 10:45 AM

Obama is {shudder} prez
Nancy is house
Reid is senate

this war is lost

Kini on November 25, 2009 at 12:35 PM

The U.S. should be held to a higher standard.

Enrique on November 25, 2009 at 9:29 AM

Enrique’s got a mind meld with John McCain. Total BS of course.

The guys who pull special ops cannot operate when PC Jags are hovering over them waiting to fuck ‘em. Allah’s “wrist slap” is a career ending perversion of justice. It’s the fear of this “wrist slap” that got 15 people killed at Fort Hood. If AP was a real conservative he’d be pissed off that PC activists in the Pentagon’s bureaucracy are working to disable the warriors that keep us safe.

A friend of mine left the Marines over this sort of crap. He was put up for Courts Martial for taking out a Talib commander with a head shot from his A3. At the same time he was going to be decorated for saving a platoon from ambush by exposing his position at extreme peril to his life.

These guys work at a level of controlled aggression that Allahp and Enrique cannot fathom. The Brass and clueless Beta Male pundits should be able to grasp that BS charges like these drive out the kind of men they need most to fight a COIN war against the Takfiri.

My pal, BTW, has a new Sako TRG-42 with a Nightforce scope. He’s ready to go back…

rcl on November 25, 2009 at 12:35 PM

Allah may someday wake up to find he’s required to take Arabic language classes. But he won’t mind, as it will let him learn how to say “I’m SO sorry for my country” in yet another F-ING LANGUAGE.

leftnomore on November 25, 2009 at 1:09 PM

SEIU dues = $8
SEIU t-shirt = $20
Getting away with beating the crap out of numerous TEA partiers while 3 Navy Seals are prosecuted for giving a murdering jihadist a fat lip = Priceless

Logboy on November 25, 2009 at 1:43 PM

Are we really pissing all over AP for pointing out that the military’s hand was likely forced by the involvement of the iraqi gov’t and the political implications?

Seriously, climb down and read for comprehension.

TexasDan on November 25, 2009 at 1:49 PM

So Kenneth Gladney (sp?) gets beat up on video by union thugs, no charges. Liberal punks throw objects(pies) at people, no charges. Al Franken tackles and puts wrestling moves on a heckler, no charges. Sleazebag black female politician attacks capital building security guard, no charges.

Where is Pinochet?

Spartacus on November 25, 2009 at 2:07 PM

Factiod, If the seals captured him, it wasn’t in a civilized area.

Spartacus on November 25, 2009 at 2:09 PM

Jesus, you people are ridiculous.

If the SEALs mishandled a detainee, they should be held accountable. All this “they should have cut his throat” is childish crap. I’m sure the court martial will throw some light on the situation. All of you who want to make excuses for detainee mistreatment – would you kindly go f*ck yourselves? The U.S. should be held to a higher standard. If anyone has a problem with that, fair enough, go ahead and whine about it. And when you’re done with that, you can explain how it’s okay for police to arrest an Ivy League professor in his own home. Crybabies.

You people are acting like Allahpundit is somehow a Kos fellow traveler now. Grow up.

Enrique on November 25, 2009 at 9:29 AM

The wonders of a public education never cease to amaze me.

Old Hippie Vet on November 25, 2009 at 2:21 PM

Black Yoshi on November 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

You are correct in one thing… you do know nothing of the Military… either todays or the one which served with distinction in Viet Nam.

You also apparently know NOTHING of Middle Eastern culture. They see forbearance as weakness.

This individual may accomplish through our own PC over lawyer’d Defense Depts. own rules somthing he could never accomplish in real life…. by complaining about a split lip (which may have very well been given by the Iraqis themselves, or nonexistant)… he may very well take 3 SEALS off the battlefield.

Romeo13 on November 25, 2009 at 2:21 PM

Enrique on November 25, 2009 at 9:29 AM

Says someone sitting in the Stands… armchair quaterbacking those who spill their blood in order to keep HIM safe…

Romeo13 on November 25, 2009 at 2:23 PM

The U.S. should be held to a higher standard. If anyone has a problem with that, fair enough, go ahead and whine about it.

Too bad your “higher standard” skips the part about US citizens being innocent until proven guilty, no matter how useful it might be to hang them high. If the judges find it reasonable to conclude Mr. Terrorist marked himself up, like Admiral Stockdale did in Vietnam, will you whine about it?

And when you’re done with that, you can explain how it’s okay for police to arrest an Ivy League professor in his own home. Crybabies.

People who break down front doors in the suburbs have to explain themselves to armed force. If they’re really lucky, that armed force will be a cop.

Chris_Balsz on November 25, 2009 at 2:46 PM

I’m thinking this may be a preview of KSM’s trial in NYC…

Oh and the fat lip? Do you suppose he might have done it himself? He has every reason to do so, and if IIRC, these guys are encouraged to claim terrible torture, at the hands of the infidel, to garner sympathy. If he could have buttstroke himself, I’m sure he would have done that too…

Venril on November 25, 2009 at 2:48 PM

You really have two questions presented here:

1. Are the applicable laws (from UCMJ or wherever) too harsh toward our own servicemembers when it comes to handling detainees as awful as this one?

2. Should the laws be applied fairly uniformly no matter how highly society views the victim?

I have to think much of the blow-back here is directed more toward the public policy behind our current system of laws. I won’t say too much in this regard. It’s a very close question–although I do tend to favor holding Americans to a high standard of conduct, the rules of warfare with respect to irregular enemy combatants could easily lead to the ruin of Western civilization. After all, these combatants won’t return the favor any time soon…

In response to the second question, our nation was founded upon the concept of a rule of law (versus the rule of a king). Even when the law leads to unpopular results, it must be upheld. Lefties love to assault the rule of law when it suits their pet policies. Conservatives should not take the bait by making a similar assault from the Right. As the rule of law erodes, chaos ensues.

In sum, maybe we should revisit our rules of engagement. But these servicemembers know full well what those rules are before taking action. If the evidence proves beyond a doubt that they broke the rules, then punishment must follow. I hope they can understand we are nevertheless grateful for the honorable accomplishments they’ve produced.

(Now, as for the NYC trials, I maintain that Eric Holder is continuing to make a mockery of the U.S. Department of Justice…)

cackcon on November 25, 2009 at 3:24 PM

Actually, a “higher standard” is necessary for counterinsurgency. I’m a military neophyte and even I know that much. Just draw a comparison to the elite, professional army of today and the army of Vietnam. I guarantee you will find it has improved quite a bit from the rampant drug use, civilian killings at the drop of a hat, and fragging.

Not to denigrate the service of those who were in Vietnam, but nobody can argue that there were a lot of terrible things going on at that time – because the Army wasn’t as disciplined.

Black Yoshi on November 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

You are full of sh*t jr…..plain and simple. I was there in 1971, US Army.

Old Hippie Vet on November 25, 2009 at 3:25 PM

Are the troops allowed to beat up prisoners?

Spathi on November 25, 2009 at 3:35 PM

This is so outrageous to train someone to risk theor life and kill to protect us, and then do this to them???!!! I feel so ashamed, sorry for and indebted to those guys. 2010 and 2012 can’t get here soon enough. Iknow a lot of people feel like this, even Obama voters. Mustn’t let them forget!

Reality Check on November 25, 2009 at 4:19 PM

the army of Vietnam. I guarantee you will find it has improved quite a bit from the rampant drug use, civilian killings at the drop of a hat, and fragging.

Black Yoshi on November 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

Damn! Somehow I always seem to manage to miss out on the exciting stuff!

MB4 on November 25, 2009 at 4:47 PM

ARGH!!!

Anyone that keeps talking about this higher standard crap can kiss my big fat butt. If you think that our Marines should have restrained themselves when capturing the man that tortured, killed, burned, dismembered and hanged fellow Marines, I have to ask “have you ever been part of any deeply committed organization where brotherhood meant something?”

If you were the father of a child or friend that was raped and murdered, and you happened to capture the thug that did it, do you think you could hold yourself to a higher standard? If you happened to capture someone that was stealing stuff from your home, or harming a family pet, or desecrating a family grave, could you control yourself?

Do you have ANY friggin concept of pride and brotherhood? Who knows what was said when he was captured. Did this evil piece of vile filth have the ballz to mouth off to his captors? Or better yet, is he completely aware of the pussification of America and received the bloody lip while in Iraqi custody to be used to further slime our military?

The fact that this piece of crap is still alive is PROOF that our soldiers acted with restraint. They should be given a medal, not a trial.

cannonball on November 25, 2009 at 5:04 PM

And when you’re done with that, you can explain how it’s okay for police to arrest an Ivy League professor in his own home. Crybabies.

Enruique

When someone acts like an ass-hat to a cop and does not follow instructions from said cop, it is ok to arrest him.

You are clueless, now get the hell out of here before you lower your IQ any further with your KOS-ian crap.

cannonball on November 25, 2009 at 5:05 PM

Are the troops allowed to beat up prisoners?
Spathi on November 25, 2009 at 3:35 PM

Sure, if theyr’e acting as wardens, and have reason to. Just like back in the States.

Chris_Balsz on November 25, 2009 at 5:30 PM

As a former SEAL, I sit here almost speechless. I cannot imagine operating under the ROE that the warriors must suffer today. The whole purpose of the SEAL and other SF is to accomplish the mission using extreem violence. That is the only way to accomplish the things we did with the few men we had. You cannot expect a SEAL who has been taught this to suddenly become a pussycat with an enemy who has vowed the destruction of our country.

Give them a medal, not Admiral’s Mast.

wirebitersmith on November 25, 2009 at 6:07 PM

“Black Yoshi on November 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM
You are full of sh*t jr…..plain and simple. I was there in 1971, US Army.

Old Hippie Vet on November 25, 2009 at 3:25 PM”

Amen, Old Hippie! It seems that the most opinionated, loud mouthed critics of Vietnam are people who weren’t there. Black Yoshi doesn’t know what the hell he is talking about.

Star20 on November 25, 2009 at 6:48 PM

having served over here with the Teams and currently serving in Iraq, wirebitersmith is correct that they are lucky that a fat lip was all he received. One other thing to consider is that at times we have to breach a door or other obstruction and he could have received the fat lip blocking the door! I cannot believe I am actually talking about a guy responsible for killing, desecrating, burning, dragging, and then hanging Americans from a bridge is crying about a fat lip!! On top of that, there are those of you talking about this PC wimpified crap and standing up for this guy’s “rights”! That attitude gets you killed over here! Wake up America. We are over here fighting for our rights, values, and freedoms! I am sure Washington, Jefferson, Patrick Henry, et al were a little rough at times with the Brits!

g2825m on November 25, 2009 at 6:58 PM

First, your headline is wrong. They have not been court martialed. They have elected court martial in lieu of Article 15, or Captain’s Mast, in the Navy. Future tense, not past tense. Second, I don’t believe they have done anything wrong and only one is being tried for the actual “assault”. Get a grip people, these guys are our warriors and if a fat lip was all this guy got after what he did, he’s extremely lucky. This is a war, not a police problem, these guys should be honored for their service, not crucified by political correctness. Personally, I think the Iraqi is lying.

Bill R. on November 25, 2009 at 7:20 PM

I think we have jumped the shark with interrogations. Just kill ‘em in an ambush. It’s a war people. That way we won’t have ObamaCo punishing our warriors for being actual men.

This is a disgrace.

Mojave Mark on November 25, 2009 at 7:47 PM

g2825,

Don’t let the morons get you guys down. Millions of Americans appreciate what our troops are doing and keep you in our prayers, every day. We have your back.

Star20 on November 25, 2009 at 8:23 PM

So, here is what we are held to a “higher standard” against.

And these jihadis took NO hostages, but instead executed them on the spot.

I guess the only ones who realize this is a fight to the finish is the enemy.

OkieDoc on November 25, 2009 at 8:35 PM

And when you’re done with that, you can explain how it’s okay for police to arrest an Ivy League professor in his own home.

Enrique on November 25, 2009 at 9:29 AM

That would depend on the circumstances of the arrest. Who would claim that it would never be right to arrest an Ivy League professor in his own home? Not under any circumstances?

There Goes The Neighborhood on November 25, 2009 at 9:44 PM

Anybody ever notice that the number of terrorist prisoners doesn’t seem to be growing?
Star20 on November 25, 2009 at 10:57 AM

Yes, its been that way for about a year and a half now.
Seems that if they are dead, you aren’t violating any of their civil rights when you go through their stuff.

KISS
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

DSchoen on November 25, 2009 at 10:02 PM

“Black Yoshi on November 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

You are full of sh*t jr…..plain and simple. I was there in 1971, US Army.

Old Hippie Vet on November 25, 2009 at 3:25 PM”

Amen, Old Hippie! It seems that the most opinionated, loud mouthed critics of Vietnam are people who weren’t there. Black Yoshi doesn’t know what the hell he is talking about.

Star20 on November 25, 2009 at 6:48 PM

Those of us “who weren’t there,” have been told all our lives about how horrible the Army behaved. Lies, of course, but it’s hardly surprising how often people assume that there must have been some fire under that smoke.

I think the military does have higher standards now that it is all volunteer, but I’ve come to realize that virtually every negative word about the Vietnam Vets was no more accurate than Rather’s forged documents.

There Goes The Neighborhood on November 25, 2009 at 10:04 PM

And when you’re done with that, you can explain how it’s okay for police to arrest an Ivy League professor in his own home.
Enrique on November 25, 2009 at 9:29 AM

People get arrested in their own home all the time!

Watch a couple of the “cops” show.

When the cops show up with a warrant to arrest someone they don’t sit outside going golly, he’s in his own home.

In fact A HARVARD professor, Dirk Greineder, was convicted of murdering his wife during a walk in the woods.
You know where they arrested him?

Ex-Harvard Med School Professor turned Cross-Dressing Murderer Hangs Himself in Jail Cell
You know where they arrested him?

Former Harvard Medical School Professor Convicted of Attempted Grand Larceny in L.A.

You know where they arrested him?

Lets not forget that brainiac

HARVARD grad who also got a PHD from University of Michigan and became an assistant professor at the University of California, Berkeley at age 25.
Remember him?

Ya

Ted Kaczynski

You know where they arrested him?

That’s right! In his own home!!!

NEXT!

DSchoen on November 25, 2009 at 10:38 PM

I think the military does have higher standards now that it is all volunteer, but I’ve come to realize that virtually every negative word about the Vietnam Vets was no more accurate than Rather’s forged documents.

There Goes The Neighborhood on November 25, 2009 at 10:04 PM

Or Hanoi Jane’s treasonous actions, never called upon.

Peeps, anybody that displays this kind of contempt for the freeerdoms they enjoy to subvert those same freedoms should be by necessity be sumariarly executed in the hour of war. Boys, eliminate them, Damn the ROE and “FULL SPEED AHEAD”.
It ain’t Christmas at the Bulge; Your lives (and ours depend on it).
Happy Thanksgiving. Be Safe.

OkieDoc on November 25, 2009 at 11:21 PM

There’s no way of denying this very simple fact. The election of Barak Hussein Obama did far more damage to America than the 9/11/01 atrocities. The latter inflicted damage on America from without while the former has essentially been an eleven month terror attack from within.

Let’s roll.

highhopes on November 25, 2009 at 11:48 PM

I think the military does have higher standards now that it is all volunteer, but I’ve come to realize that virtually every negative word about the Vietnam Vets was no more accurate than Rather’s forged documents.

There Goes The Neighborhood on November 25, 2009 at 10:04 PM

Dropping the Bomb on Vietnam myths

MB4 on November 25, 2009 at 11:50 PM

To all who commented: I know the military wasn’t rife with the abuses I pointed out, but I think you would be very hard pressed to argue that the same number of abuses take place in today’s military. For example, My Lai and the activities of Tiger Force were both black marks that have no analog in Iraq or Afghanistan.

No, I don’t believe the garbage Fonda or any other antiwar tool in those days was spouting. Seems you simply misunderstood my intent.

Black Yoshi on November 26, 2009 at 12:24 AM

There’s no way of denying this very simple fact. The election of Barak Hussein Obama did far more damage to America than the 9/11/01 atrocities. The latter inflicted damage on America from without while the former has essentially been an eleven month terror attack from within.

Let’s roll.

highhopes on November 25, 2009 at 11:48 PM

Let’s roll – lulz

simplesimon on November 26, 2009 at 7:39 AM

This is my opinion,Enrique, take or leave it. In war, a nation whose military is forced to conform to higher standards even in the battlefield by their politicians and lawyers will always lose the war against an enemy who have none and who knows where the real battles are won which is not on the battlefield, but in the heart and minds of the nation’s elite.

The rules of war used to be simple
1) Do not rape female prisoners or civilians
2) Do not murder civilians and your fellow soldiers
3) Treat the enemy the same way they treat your own men.
4) Find and exterminate traitors in your midst.

Enrique, Higher standards in war is nice to have, but winning the war is even better. But the best solution would be this, win the war by beating your enemy to a pulp, their cities are in ruins and their armies wiped out in the battlefield it tries to offer battle and the survivors returning home in rags. Cold and cruel, definitely, but it’s better than Tamerlane’s approach or the Mongols.

DinobotPrime on November 26, 2009 at 7:48 AM

Let’s roll – lulz

simplesimon on November 26, 2009 at 7:39 AM

Or, we could just as easily say, “Let’s simple, simon”. LSS is the new LOL. It works.

Come on man, there’re enough turkeys to go around today.
You don’t have to play one on the net.

OkieDoc on November 26, 2009 at 7:53 AM

Black Yoshi

My Lai is a black mark, but the the activities of Tiger Force, ahh, that’s debatable. I’m not military so I have no dog in this quarrel, but Tiger Force was doing the same thing as any military unit was doing from time immemorial. F**K your enemy and their supporters. Hell,Mao did it successfully in China and Uncle Ho Chi Mihn did it in Vietnam against the Japanese and the French prior to America’s involvement in that country.

DinobotPrime on November 26, 2009 at 7:56 AM

First the cut in miitary funding, then the unabashed dithering, then multi-million dollar taxpayer-funded show trials for KSM, now this.

Morale in the miliary must be plummeting faster than O’bummer’s approval ratings.

How much longer do we have to suck it up?

Sweet_Thang on November 26, 2009 at 9:13 AM

Anybody ever notice that the number of terrorist prisoners doesn’t seem to be growing? I think our guys are seeing the folly in the idea of “bringing terrorists to justice.” I think they are more likely to introduce them to their Maker.

Star20 on November 25, 2009 at 10:57 AM

It is getting rather noticeable, isn’t it? hahahaha—stupid liberals

flyoverboy on November 26, 2009 at 12:41 PM

What’s your source for ‘civilian killings AT THE DROP OF A HAT’ ??

You ARE denigrating every soldier, sailor, airman and Marine who served in that God-forsaken country. You’re denigrating ME–I’m not important but those sixty thousand men and eight women on ‘Mall Wall’ deserve better than what you posted

Janos Hunyadi on November 25, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Looks like another youngun readin liberal history and not havin a f***ing clue. All the dopers I knew were layin on the USS Santuary with regular morphine hits comin.You drink that liberal koolaid you can KMA

flyoverboy on November 26, 2009 at 1:01 PM

flyoverboy on November 26, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Heh. Again, the atrocities I was referring to were documented. Obviously they were the actions of a tiny minority, since everybody in Vietnam would be dead if My Lais happened with any regularity – but remember, we do not have My Lais happening in Iraq or Afghanistan. This is indisputable.

F**K your enemy and their supporters. Hell,Mao did it successfully in China and Uncle Ho Chi Mihn did it in Vietnam against the Japanese and the French prior to America’s involvement in that country.

DinobotPrime on November 26, 2009 at 7:56 AM

If what I read about Tiger Force is to believed, they really weren’t much better than Mao’s troopers. However, there is always the possibility I just got the wrong source. Defense anyone?

Black Yoshi on November 26, 2009 at 1:31 PM

Heh. Again, the atrocities I was referring to were documented. Obviously they were the actions of a tiny minority, since everybody in Vietnam would be dead if My Lais happened with any regularity – but remember, we do not have My Lais happening in Iraq or Afghanistan. This is indisputable.

rampant drug use, civilian killings at the drop of a hat,fragging? HeH Heh I’ll bet you do. You sure as hell don’t get it. Your attempt at backtracking is as lame as the original post.. Screw You

flyoverboy on November 26, 2009 at 2:12 PM

Allahpundit and others who rationalize the prosecution of the NAVY SEALS, I say you are full of it. Get some prespective and some sense. A radical Islamist jihadist combatant was captured by brave actions of some of our finest and bravest, and what are we doing? Prosecuting our finest for not treating the radical Islaimist killer gently upon capture?!? To do so is just a reflection of the mentality of blaming America and treating the radical Islamist jhadist combatants as entitled to the protections of American citizens. It’s wrong, wrong, wrong.

Phil Byler on November 26, 2009 at 8:41 PM

rampant drug use, civilian killings at the drop of a hat,fragging? HeH Heh I’ll bet you do. You sure as hell don’t get it. Your attempt at backtracking is as lame as the original post.. Screw You

flyoverboy on November 26, 2009 at 2:12 PM

You just want to hate an acceptable target. What I pointed out is indisputable. Besides that, the article on Vietnam myths points out a higher drug abuse rate as the war drew to a close, fragging was real:

“During the years of 1969 down to 1973, we have the rise of fragging – that is, shooting or hand-grenading your NCO or your officer who orders you out into the field,” says historian Terry Anderson of Texas A & M University. “The US Army itself does not know exactly how many…officers were murdered. But they know at least 600 were murdered, and then they have another 1400 that died mysteriously. Consequently by early 1970, the army [was] at war not with the enemy but with itself.”

http://home.mweb.co.za/re/redcap/vietcrim.htm

and My Lai covers the third. The demons existed. Did they characterize the service at large? No. But they existed.

Now you’ll probably are going to bring up the “denigrating servicemen” card again. Forget it. I respect soldiers, Marines, sailors, and airmen, and at the same time I can recognize what happened in regards to a very bad minority.

Black Yoshi on November 27, 2009 at 12:10 AM

What makes the Americans and their country seem to me worth saving is the relatively small class of men among them that includes Allahpundit. He does not even seem to be among the best of that class; nevertheless, most of his critics seem unfit to tie his shoes. I care about the Americans treating their military men well and winning their wars, for the sake of the class of men that includes Allahpundit. Were it not for them, the Americans and their wars would be of general interest, but no particular interest.

Kralizec on November 27, 2009 at 1:29 AM

Anybody ever notice that the number of terrorist prisoners doesn’t seem to be growing? I think our guys are seeing the folly in the idea of “bringing terrorists to justice.” I think they are more likely to introduce them to their Maker.

Star20 on November 25, 2009 at 10:57 AM

Sadly, I think you’re right. I’m not sad at the terrorists assuming room temperature, though. What grieves me is the potential loss of intelligence brought about by the lawyers who are now making war policy.

Some terrorist got a fat lip? Wahhhhhh. We’re talking about people who recruit kids who blow themselves up. Folks whose idea of a fair fight is planting roadside bombs that could hit an ambulance, school bus, or Humvee.

hawksruleva on November 27, 2009 at 10:07 AM

OK, the 3 SEALS are going to end up as heroes to the vast majority of the USA. And that’s the way it should be! However, I like the larger political ramifications. This will help lower Obambi’s standing with the country.
.
You just don’t handle these kind of situations the way Obambi is handling them. Yes, military discipline is important. In this case the SEAL commander should have spent 5 minutes behind closed doors with the 3 men and had a serious heart-to-heart with them. Then he should have immediately handed them tickets out of that hell hole for 30 days of R&R.
.
This incident will just be one more scrap of evidence added to the public opinion scales against Obambi. He is the CIC after all and I think the buck stops at his desk does it not?

Metanis on November 27, 2009 at 10:45 AM

Now you’ll probably are going to bring up the “denigrating servicemen” card again. Forget it. I respect soldiers, Marines, sailors, and airmen, and at the same time I can recognize what happened in regards to a very bad minority.

Black Yoshi on November 27, 2009 at 12:10 AM

Sounds to be a John Kerry apologist. I was there , I lived it. Both there and at home. And granted there are a lot of “indesputable facts” to cover your points. It seems there were substantially more documented negative “facts”at that time,than positive. It was the in thing to do. Just ask John Kerry . Never mind it was the people RUNNING and setting policies for that war that caused a good deal of the rot. Same as now. So take your facts and stickem where the sun don’t shine.

flyoverboy on November 27, 2009 at 1:50 PM

Sounds to be a John Kerry apologist. I was there , I lived it. Both there and at home. And granted there are a lot of “indesputable facts” to cover your points. It seems there were substantially more documented negative “facts”at that time,than positive. It was the in thing to do. Just ask John Kerry . Never mind it was the people RUNNING and setting policies for that war that caused a good deal of the rot. Same as now. So take your facts and stickem where the sun don’t shine.

flyoverboy on November 27, 2009 at 1:50 PM

No, I’m not a John Kerry apologist, thanks.

Black Yoshi on November 27, 2009 at 10:37 PM

…It seems there were substantially more documented negative “facts”at that time,than positive. It was the in thing to do. Just ask John Kerry …

BY, all one need do is to look at the current political atmosphere to see the corollary to the VNW.
- See the accusations of atrocities on both fronts, then and in our current TOW.
- Examine the record of Johnson, or do we give him a break cause he was “thrust” into this role by the Kennedy assassination?
-Why did the conservative Republican president attract so much feces flinging from the media during the close of the war; I know right? No feces flying now, is there? NO Bush.
-Who’d we end up with after the libturds were able to smear his administration? [HINT: See
Sha Reza Pahlavi]
-Where was the Russo-China pact operating during this period? And as important, where are their efforts focused NOW?
- Are you really stooopid or just neglegent in you scholarship?

And, hell no, I won’t provide you with links and references, do you’re own frelling work. Or are you that lazy? Or, is it as suspect? You’re spending remedial time brushing up on your military history?

Until you can come up with answers to my statements, Don’t try to talk outta yo ass and pie hole at the same time. It takes practice...

Then again you might have a lock.

OkieDoc on November 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4