The third-party moment
posted at 8:10 pm on November 23, 2009 by Doctor Zero
Two spectacular book-signing tours by prominent conservative figures are currently in progress: Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. They share many of the same ideas about the decay of the American system, and how to reverse it, but one striking difference is their approach to the Republican Party. Palin wants to revive the party, while Beck has already taken a seat on its death panel. In Florida on Sunday, he gave a speech calling for an end to the two-party system, and has often spoken of the futility of counting on the Republican Party for any meaningful assistance in rescuing America from socialism.
The confusion and weariness of the Republicans doesn’t automatically mean the third-party moment has arrived. It’s possible to be fed up with the GOP, but still opposed to investing serious energy in the formation of an alternative party. I don’t disagree with most of Beck’s criticisms of the Republicans, but I favor Palin’s approach to reforming them, instead of abandoning them. For me, the third-party moment will be one of absolute despair, aimed more at salvaging the remains of a broken country than averting disaster. It will be more about resurrection than reformation.
The current environment is one of peril, not despair. The Republicans have improved their game considerably since the dark days of 2006, partially due to the dead wood cleaned out in a couple of bad election cycles. They’ve maintained a respectable amount of discipline in the House and Senate votes against the Democratic health-care takeover. People like John Boehner and Jim DeMint have displayed intelligence, leadership, and parliamentary skill. When even Lindsay Graham can tap into the ring and put Obama’s Attorney General on the mat with the Soft On Terrorism Suplex, it’s tough to declare the party completely devoid of energy and courage.
The most ardent critics of the GOP say that its worst elements outweigh its best – the RINOs and disguised Democrats in the lower decks will always sink the ship, no matter who takes the helm. When the Republicans give in to their worst instincts, a little tough love is called for, as we saw in the recent New York District 23 race. Conservative insurgent Doug Hoffman didn’t lose because he leaned too far to the right. He lost largely because of backstabbing from masked Democrat Deedee Scozzafava, a lack of campaign funding and organization, and some perceived weakness on local issues… all things a faithful Republican Party could have helped him with, if they weren’t busy weaving a million dollars of Scozzafava campaign money into a noose for themselves.
Hoffman wasn’t trying to destroy the GOP. He wanted to run as its candidate, and he lose because the party failed him. If Hoffman runs again, with the money and political assistance of the Republican Party behind him in 2010, he’ll win. If the party cruises ACORN ballot-stuffing parties, looking for another union organizer’s wife to put on the ticket, they’ll lose. We’ll soon find out if they learned their lesson.
Talk of building a new party to escape the RINOs is akin to talk about secession to escape from disastrous liberal policies: how do you keep the same people from migrating into your new party or nation-state, and starting the whole miserable process again? How does a third party of conservative purity defeat both the Democrats, and the enraged rump of an embittered Republican Party bent on revenge? If you think the media gives disproportionate attention to liberal Republicans now, just wait until it can use them as clubs to beat the Third Party… a mission those liberal Republicans will gladly volunteer for. As the NY-23 race showed, it’s better to defeat the Republican left from within the party, rather than give the Democrats ringside seats at a Conservatives vs. Republicans smackdown.
I’ve always wondered how a conservative movement that essentially concedes defeat against liberal Republicans, and withdraws from the party, could expect to defeat the much larger and more powerful Democrat Party. If we can’t handle Olympia Snowe swooning before “the call of history,” I don’t like our chances against the guy on the other end of the line.
Glenn Beck’s call for dissolving the two-party system is unlikely to make any headway, because one of those two parties has no intention of dissolving. The Democrat coalition has its fault lines and bitter rivalries, but they are united in defending the growth of the State. The members of that coalition are willing to set aside their differences to support increasing the size of government as an inherently desirable goal, then fight among themselves for influence within the immense government they have created. The challenge for conservatives is to reach the independents and moderates who orbit the fringe of the Democrat coalition, and show them why their faith in Big Government is misplaced. At the same time, they must provide a coherent philosophy that can unite those who already mistrust Big Government. A Third Party wrapped up in a messy divorce from the GOP would not be in a stronger position to do either of those things.
A political party is a mixture of money, tradition, and political machinery. The two major American parties have been brewing for a long time, accumulating assets that would not be easily replaced or duplicated. The Republican Party, for all its flaws, is a valuable instrument for conservatism. Changing the attitude of the people who control the party will be a less formidable task than persuading the rest of the nation without it. Glenn Beck says that his goal is to reform government by changing the hearts and minds of the people who vote it into existence. If he can accomplish even a fraction of that goal, he won’t have to worry about creating an alternative to the Republican Party.
Meanwhile, middle-class voters are tired of being dismissed as mindlessly angry white people by sneering journalists. They want someone who understands their concerns to express them with eloquence and passion, giving them a voice that would never be willingly provided by a partisan media culture. That’s why they like Sarah Palin so much. Her remarkable journey took her completely outside a party apparatus that was already polishing its alibis and planning how to dispose of her remains, even as it demanded the impossible from her last year. More of the GOP establishment should try “going rogue,” and finding the party’s future in the vast crowds waiting to get Palin and Beck to sign their books. The Republican Party is America’s home team, in the contest to re-define its essence. By the time we could replace them with another team, we’d be playing an entirely different game.
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At this point I would just be willing to vote for Pedro if he upheld freedom.
RobertInLexington on November 23, 2009 at 8:14 PM
I’m Back!
Mr. Joe on November 23, 2009 at 8:14 PM
Tan, Rested and Ready, with a new bar chart to boot!
Mr. Joe on November 23, 2009 at 8:15 PM
Don’t want a third party, just want the republican party to start advocating conservative values, small government, lower taxes, controlling spending, personal responsibility, and protecting our border and enforcing/strengthening our immigration laws, and giving our troops the tools to kill the bad guys and come home.
Oh, and could you please promote Doc Zero please, Michelle?
HornetSting on November 23, 2009 at 8:15 PM
Please NO third party, a third party would just give the dems more power. as rush says no need for a third party just retake the gop.
lavell12 on November 23, 2009 at 8:16 PM
Pedro is all about freedom. But the llama is a real pain in the ass.
Uncle Rico: I’m not goin’ anywhere, Napoleon.
Napoleon Dynamite: Get off my property!
Uncle Rico: It’s a free country. I can do whatever I want.
Napoleon Dynamite: Get off my property or I’ll call the cops on you.
Uncle Rico: Well then do it! Go on!
Napoleon Dynamite: Maybe I will, GOSH!
Mr. Joe on November 23, 2009 at 8:17 PM
What Hornet said.
Geochelone on November 23, 2009 at 8:18 PM
Don: Hey, Napoleon. What did you do last summer again?
Napoleon Dynamite: I told you! I spent it with my uncle in Alaska hunting wolverines!
Don: Did you shoot any?
Napoleon Dynamite: Yes, like 50 of ‘em! They kept trying to attack my cousins, what the heck would you do in a situation like that?
Don: What kind of gun did you use?
Napoleon Dynamite: A freakin’ 12-gauge, what do you think?
Mr. Joe on November 23, 2009 at 8:18 PM
Pedro: Do you think people will vote for me?
Napoleon Dynamite: Heck yes! I’d vote for you.
Pedro: Like what are my skills?
Napoleon Dynamite: Well, you have a sweet bike. And you’re really good at hooking up with chicks. Plus you’re like the only guy at school who has a mustache.
Mr. Joe on November 23, 2009 at 8:19 PM
Pedro: Vote for me, and all your wildest dreams will come true.
Mr. Joe on November 23, 2009 at 8:20 PM
FIFY
LASue on November 23, 2009 at 8:24 PM
Sure do wish I could remember which other thread I posted on, as this is actually more timely.
I LOVE Beck (Yup, I also think he’s got a screw lose, but betcha those silly colonists thought the same about “batsinthebelfybenny”, “TommytherandymanJefferson”, George”I’llsleepwithmyhorse,” etal.
The third party movement is a total non-starter. If the Republicans vote for Mickey Mouse, the rat has my vote, provided he doesn’t get written up in the tabloids for doing somehthing really nasty to Miss Minny (Even then, I’d need proof!).
I sure wish it weren’t so! Wish we had the power to thumb our noses at a mediocre candidate, but we just flat don’t.
A second Obama term, and a second Obama term with a democratic congress just scares the ever-lovin stuffin out of me.
Sorry if I’m a sell out, but I’ll vote for the repub, regardless of his/her rap sheet…all they have to do is assure me they will vote against ANY expansion of gob’ment.
Chewy the Lab on November 23, 2009 at 8:25 PM
Glenn needs to read more Dr. Zero and spend less time with O’reilly, in the evolution of Glenns grand scheme maybe he will come around to the same conclusion. Third parties always hurt the republicans and I can’t believe that is Glenns objective.
fourdeucer on November 23, 2009 at 8:28 PM
I hate the 2 party system, but a 3rd party now means without a doubt an Obama 2nd term…. *shudders*
misterspork on November 23, 2009 at 8:28 PM
Here,s a idea let,s take back the Rep. party and return it to it,s conservative values. Then we can put all the Rino,s in there own party and call it the new third party.
thmcbb on November 23, 2009 at 8:32 PM
Apparently John Stossel is a Doctor Zero fan.
JohnJ on November 23, 2009 at 8:33 PM
At least the GOP will clean out its deadwood such as Snowe and Collins, then cast its support behind solid, credentialed conservatives such as Scozzafava; that much I know they will do.
Butt, say hello to flying monkeys.
Bishop on November 23, 2009 at 8:36 PM
What makes up the Democrat Party?
Registered Democrat voters, every single union, the educational system, the main stream media, Hollywood, the public sector, every single bureaucrat who’s job depends on government, socialist, Marxists, fascists, foreign governments, ACORN, those who control the money, those who control the government, those who control information and the pop culture, and every champion of graft, corruption, fraud, waste and abuse.
What makes up the Republican Party?
Everyone else…
No ‘Third Party’ please, it’s going to be hard enough.
Good post, Doc.
Seven Percent Solution on November 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM
*Cross posted from the Green Room*
I have a question for all those on the “let’s start a third party” route.
My understanding is that, according to these folks, the GOP is just too tainted to stand up against statism…that it has been infiltrated by the self-serving, the leftists and the principle-less wimps and morons to the point that it’s “just as bad as the other party”.
Okay. So let’s say we go all in and create this perfect third party…which will, if history is our guide, serve more as a spoiler than a real contender. But let’s set that aside and pretend that there’s SUCH a momentum that a third party wipes the floor clean and the GOP gets the kind of votes the third party normally would.
Here’s my question.
What do we do when that third party becomes corrupted by the same leftist, wimpy, self-serving, principle-less morons? Because it would only be a matter of time. Whenever there’s an effective fight against statism, it will inevitably become a target to be infiltrated and corrupted by the worthless, self-serving cancerous elements as the GOP is.
Do we then create a new third party and go through it all over again?
OR DO WE TAKE OUR STAND AND TAKE OUR PARTY BACK IN THE NAME OF CONSERVATISM AND IN THE PRINCIPLES WE BELIEVE IN?
powerpro on November 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM
Like wise yours.
fourdeucer on November 23, 2009 at 8:43 PM
Winner.
“Pedro offers you his protection.”
russcote on November 23, 2009 at 8:51 PM
Minnesota has a “strong” 3rd party movement. It’s given us Jesse Ventura, Tim Pawlenty and Al Franken.
It went from being a player to a spoiler to a collection of cranks.
The history of 3rd parties is that of the “cult of personality” be it Teddy Roosevelt’s Bull Moose or Ross Perot’s, well, whatever it was.
The Left fears and loathes Palin because she’s a Republican Reformer. If she can make over and take over the national GOP like she did in Alaska, the Donks will be sucking wind and playing catch up for years.
For them the vision of Palin at the top of the GOP ticket in ’12 is like that of a snake contemplating a mongoose.
Bruno Strozek on November 23, 2009 at 8:52 PM
Excellent article, Doc!
Sekhmet on November 23, 2009 at 8:55 PM
Reagan was right to eschew a third party after his defeat in 1976. The same holds for today. If conservative ideals can’t even win in the Republican Party then why split off to be a third? Win back our party and win elections with it. Remember, Conservatives may be 40% of the electorate but it still takes 50.1% to win.
jnelchef on November 23, 2009 at 8:57 PM
Another verbal masterpiece by Doctor Zero!
So,to Purge or not to Purge!!!!
canopfor on November 23, 2009 at 8:58 PM
Literary legend Doctor Zero strikes again! Well done, sir.
jgapinoy on November 23, 2009 at 9:00 PM
As long as the Democrats are as crazyinsane as they are, I will do everything I can to promote Republicans. Third Party is just a vote for Marxism at this point.
Dark Eden on November 23, 2009 at 9:06 PM
Apart from a very fews years at the beginning of our history and another brief stint in the 1830s/40s…….this nation has never been a serious multi-party country. Multiple parties don’t lend themselves well to the type of government we have. Multiple parites survive and thrive in parliamentary style governments where single issue-groups and special interests can gain inordinate weight with proportional balloting and such. In those countries, some numbers can get you a good showing. In the U.S. it’s big numbers that count……winner take all.
The “third party” idea is assurer of defeat. We need to re-command the GOP because it’s core, traditional values are strong, sound, and winning new hearts and minds everyday as the wrath of rampant liberalism leaves swathes of the country in dismay.
JoeinTX on November 23, 2009 at 9:06 PM
A third party is ridiculous and unconscionable in the current political atmosphere. Niether side can afford to split their factions and expect to win a majority.
We can all hope not to reach this crescendo.
Doc didn’t parse whether he was talking about middle class conservatives or liberals here, but if you take into account the tea partys that the media poo pooed as some group of organized right-wing fanatics, this pissed off the middle class worker even more. I think these people were a spectrum of conservative R’s D’s and Independents just fed up with far too much government intrusion into our daily lives.
Great post as always Doc.
Rovin on November 23, 2009 at 9:11 PM
Problem is that the GOP listens to the pundits, not the people.
Look at the RINOs getting money…. and thats after TWO election cycles where they were thrown from power… because of THEIR incompetence.
Do you really see the Good Ole boys of Washington letting the people have a voice? OR, as we hear now, do they argue that they MUST have RINOs or they won’t win? Will they once more make the arguement (as many did for McCain) that if we don’t vote FOR him as the lesser evil, its all our fault?
Perot’s Party brought BOTH parties to fiscal sanity… notice that as soon as that party was no longer a threat to their power, we suddenly could no longer balance the budget?
Most polls put almost 40% of the electorate registered as Independent or Non Affilitated, which is MORE than either political party… question becomes do you reinforce FAILURE?
Romeo13 on November 23, 2009 at 9:13 PM
Well, I guess everybody is going to have a whiff during some of their at-bats… you’ve had a good run, Dr. Z, I’ll assume this was an anomaly.
fabrexe on November 23, 2009 at 9:14 PM
Clearly it is a less monumental task to rework something than it is to build something from scratch (which would likely be stillborn anyway).
MB4 on November 23, 2009 at 9:20 PM
Purge, but define the process that sets standards that includes social and fiscal responsibility. Both can framed as a moral conscience/compass. Create a pact, so that both sides of Party can accept a firm platform where we are united right from the start. This way, the media and the libtards won’t find a way to divide or define our values or priorities.
Rovin on November 23, 2009 at 9:27 PM
You hit that one out of the park Doc- Well Done!!!!!!!!
huskerdiva on November 23, 2009 at 9:31 PM
We as conservatives should do these things:
1. Find a way to discuss, and agree to, a core set of principals – some of these could be:
A. True Fiscal conservatism; radically smaller, less intrusive government.
B. A stated belief in American Exceptionalism.
C. An energy indepence plan that is both multi-faceted and immediate.
D. A foreign policy statement in support of expanding freedom and democracy.
2. When we adopt these basic planks, we can invite all who will help us to “come aboard, and grab an oar.”
(See, in my vision, it’s not a tent; it’s a boat!)
3. Now, we have our core beliefs, and a truly impassioned army of supporters.
4. We then bring forth strong spokesmen/spokeswomen, who can articulate our core beliefs.
5. AND we agree not to tear into these spokesmen, just for the destructive sport of it.
When we have done these things, the Republican party will have no choice but to join us!
We will be the Republican Party.
massrighty on November 23, 2009 at 9:31 PM
If you’re going to vote third party you might as well pull the lever for Obama, cause that’s who we’ll get.
redridinghood on November 23, 2009 at 9:35 PM
I have loved Beck in the past. He has done some great work. But if he starts a third party the man has gone insane. If the fight to take back the Republican party is just too great, how then will he be able to handle the fight to take back the entire nation? If fighting against one party is too much, how will he win against two?
This is the problem I have with the third party movement. I think some would just rather rule in their own little kingdom than take a lessor rule in reviving the nation.
There is never going to be a pure party. What will the 3rd party people do when moderates take that over? Start a 4th party movement?It is an easy, quick high to start a brand new party and make yourself the king. You may have the best of intentions. But, as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
JellyToast on November 23, 2009 at 9:36 PM
yes, yes, yes and yes. The problem being the weak-kneed amongst us need to get, well, strong.
No third party! Force the republicans to be, well, republicans!
Chewy the Lab on November 23, 2009 at 9:39 PM
Jell, hon could not have said it better.
Chewy the Lab on November 23, 2009 at 9:41 PM
Hmmm….somehow I missed that part of the speech. I’d be interested in seeing the quote.
Deanna on November 23, 2009 at 9:41 PM
That 40% independent are a weird amalgam of factions….conservatives disaffected with the GOP…..genuine namby-pamby fence-riders…..”populist” romanticists….maybe even some whacked out hard lefties who don’t think the Dems are Commie enough………hardly a group with which to build a lasting political force with any chance of lasting beyond a single election cycle if that. All people who aren’t happy with how their particular political bent is being represented right now…..but not all of a common heart, cause, or end.
I mean, come on. The almost perfect “centrist” candidate ran in 2008 AND LOST. McCain was a patriot…..but a pragmatist, he was a Republican…………but a bipartisan one, he was a classic Southern/Midwestern Democrat………but lost ground in both parts of the country. He was the anti-Bush in 2000 and 2004…..but somehow became the anti-Christ in 2008.
Third party is all going nowhere…….
JoeinTX on November 23, 2009 at 9:44 PM
If we had elected Perot, we wouldn’t be in this mess. Shame the way he was treated. Good people who aren’t propped up by the special interests are driven out. Palin is getting the same treatment because she draws the people who stand and fight. That is what the socialists fear – the fighters.
And no, Perot didn’t elect Clinton. BushOne would have lost either way. All the legitimate polling data shows Perot drew equally from Clinton and Bush.
Perot’s plans are still timely.
eaglesdontflock on November 23, 2009 at 9:45 PM
Well said.
Dominion on November 23, 2009 at 9:45 PM
Another thing about the third party people,, the Republican party has a great heritage. It has a great beginning. It is the party of Reagan! Just because it has lost it’s way does not mean it should be abandoned. Just because it has had some bad leadership, does not mean it is a worthless party. Abandoning the Republican party, to me, is a bit like abandoning our nation.
Every single example you make to abandon the Republican party can also be given as examples to abandon America. America has lost it’s way. America has been immoral. America has had bad leadership! American Presidents have been RINOs and Marxists, thieves and liars. But is that reason to burn my flag? Make a coffin and declare America dead? Start a new nation? Write a new constitution?
No! I’m not quitting on America just because it’s filled with despicable leaders! And I’m not quitting on my Republican party just because it is as well!
We are the party that freed the slaves! The party that freed millions of people from tyranny all over this world! That is no small thing! We have a lot to be proud of as Republicans just as we also have a lot to be proud of as Americans! And I don’t trust the character a person that so easily wants to quit when the going gets tough, especially when the quitter’s actions may endanger the war!
JellyToast on November 23, 2009 at 9:58 PM
Changing government from a wasteful, out-of-control, power hungry monster is as easy as changing the pay program for government employees. And, it could be done almost overnight.
In my guestimation, we could reduce the size and cost of government by 50% in about one and a half Presidential terms by simply changing the pay program to an incentive based bonus system.
Here are more details:
http://galtfalcon.blogspot.com/2009/07/stopping-government-waste-sprawl-is.html
This one, simple change would solve so many other problems associated with government.
Why no one proposes or tries this is beyond me.
watson007 on November 23, 2009 at 9:59 PM
JoeinTX:
I respect the heck out of your position, but respectively disagree.
I think this is a seminal moment in American history. I think it is to the point that our grandchildren (not our own kids…and I’m 50 so my kids are grown)will look back on this time and say shame!shame! shame, Grandma and Grandpa.
I, personally have already written a letter to my grandkids apologizing for this debacle(I remind you, I have written this letter to as-yet-un-born children!). I hope to heck they have no clue what I’m talking about when they read it!
Actually, I hope I have the chance to tear it up before they read it, but, I really, really don’t think that’s a possibility.
Please God, preserve our liberty, preserve our freedom, and make those that don’t know those fundemental things are truly at stake, get it. Amen.
Chewy the Lab on November 23, 2009 at 10:00 PM
I have nothing to add, but my respects. So very well said!
Chewy the Lab on November 23, 2009 at 10:09 PM
My dear Watson, you’re always ahead of the game! Excellent!!
Will the Republican Party’s leadership learn the lesson and make needed changes?
The effort to replace Sen. Boxer (D-CA) provides an important test. Will the Party’s elite’s support Carly Fiorini? Fiorini has already poo-pooed conservatives and played a combined race/gender card against her competition. This candidate appears to be a potetial “moderate” or even center-left candidate. RNC and other party support for Fiorini over other party candidates could provide a leading indicator that the GOP’s elite aren’t going to change.
Does this mean we should go third party? Of course not…we need to take our party back. When the whole team is struggling, in pro sports the leadership get replaced…. A time-tested approach to improving performance (that means WINNING)….we should follow it!
Perfesser on November 23, 2009 at 10:28 PM
You are the party that when given BOTH houses of Congress, and the Presidency, did NOTHING to forward a Fiscaly Sane agenda.
Did NOT enforce immigration laws.
Did NOT make government smaller, and in fact presided over the largest expansion of the Government in American History (DHS).
Did NOT get our of Education, but put more Federal Strings on it.
Gave us the Blatantly UnConstitutional McCain Feingold…
Attempted to force Illegal Alien Amnesty…
Funny you bring up freeing the Slaves… as the Republican party did help do that… it was right after they REPLACED the Whigs.
Romeo13 on November 23, 2009 at 10:29 PM
The question becomes, as entrenched as the Party Elite is… how long will it take to retake the party?
And does our country have TIME to go through 2 or 3 more election cycles before they get a clue?
Romeo13 on November 23, 2009 at 10:31 PM
I overheard an interesting conversation among some heretofore liberal, Obama-supporting university students. Seems they’re becoming disillusioned with The Messiah and the national debt, which they realize they’ll be paying for. One of them chimed in “I have some Ron Paul bumper stickers. Do you want one?” He found several takers. It would be nice to see a third party that siphons away votes from the Democrat base.
Kalifornia Kafir on November 23, 2009 at 10:37 PM
Yup, you’re right. Royally screwed up on all counts.
So, Romeo, ya’all want to join us in fixin’ this mess, or you wanna bitcha about it? Let me know your thoughts on the fixin’ it part.
Chewy the Lab on November 23, 2009 at 10:39 PM
The problem is, the folks that are drawn to starting over from scratch (with a new party) are not politically savvy enough, because if they were politically savvy, they’d do it a much easier way–take over one of the major parties from the inside.
RBMN on November 23, 2009 at 10:40 PM
You’re cute hon…
…but dumb as a box a rocks.
sickemfolks!
Chewy the Lab on November 23, 2009 at 10:50 PM
The problem I have with the GOP is that the leadership looks at candidates
as “it is their turn.” please ….
when the GOP runs conservatives it will win ….
I am a registered indie because in my state I can vote in either primary …
Now … I understand that “hard” right candidates can not win in everything
district … but their are core GOP beliefs …. as long as the candidate is
within some wiggle room depending on their district … I am ok …
Suzzi in NY23 was a disaster waiting to happen ….
jqusnr on November 23, 2009 at 10:52 PM
An unfortunately-urgent concern. Hopefully we won’t have to find out!
It is possible to to put at stop to the madness in 2010. Can we effectively stop critical legislation in the Senate (like cap and trade, healthcare, and other bad ideas)? are enough Senate seats in play next November to balance the power until the House or Presidency could be won? Perhaps. I would like to think we could.
Do we need the national-level elites to be effective – or even control of national-level GOP leadership? We’re all individualist-minded people that can effectively work together on the local level. Leaders are rising up where needed – look what’s been happening the last 6 to 9 months. All that’s needed is dedication to winning race-by-race, persistence, and effective ground-game communication.
Simple? Yes. Complete? No – I won’t pretend to have all the answeres. Hard? Yes.
“Failure is not an option” applies here – think Stockdale Paradox (reference Jim Collins’ interview with Adm. Stockdale), which praraphrases as grim determination to achieve our goal no matter how long it takes.
Perfesser on November 23, 2009 at 11:12 PM
Beck could be an unaffiliated community organizer just like ACORN.
If he’s not affiliated with either party he can get federal grants and stuff to convince the homeless to vote for Palin.
Brilliant!!!
Mr Purple on November 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM
It does not destroy the GOP to have spirited primaries, where the Tea Party preferreds receive grassroot financial and door to door support over their more RINOish counterparts.
Once the primary season is over, close ranks to defeat the Dem, unless the GOPer is Scozzafava or worse — there could be a few cases nationwide where the Dem is the more fiscally conservative choice after the primaries.
Don’t forget the crossover tricks that they, and we, may have to employ in the primaries to protect our candidate and make theirs worse.
GnuBreed on November 23, 2009 at 11:49 PM
Sage insight indeed!!
Perfesser on November 24, 2009 at 12:00 AM
Glenn Beck officially jumped the shark with the 3rd party strategy. Watch his ratings begin to tank when voters realize the end results in more Obowma, not less.
Wrong, that would be FDR’s new deal and LBJ’s war on poverty, both democrats.
Wrong, look at the voting records of democrats in the 60′s as democrats voted NO, including Al Gore’s father, on civil rights and the democrat party officially started as the “SEIU strong arm” of the KKK. See Bob KKK Byrd.
dthorny on November 24, 2009 at 1:27 AM
IMHO, both Beck and Palin are right.
You see, conservsatives were KICKED to the curb by McCain, the man who is todays leader of the GOP, and who continues to set his attack dogs on Sarah. This is why Conservatives in America today ARE the Third Party, and our movement is strong, and continues to gain momentum.
Sarah is perhaps THE political leader of the conservative movement, and as she works to get more conservatives elected to Congress she will in fact be seting the stage for a total shake-up of the Republican Party.
Right now the problem to be overcome is dealing with the naysayers who are working hand in hand to keep down the conservative movement. Those people will realize that they are about to become members of the lost in the desert Liberal Republican party … if they don’t wake up pretty soon.
McCain is begining to see that as he now faces a tough re-election battle. IMHO, he will lose.
DannoJyd on November 24, 2009 at 1:48 AM
Third Party only if the Democrats start a third party.
No Ross Perot split!
yoda on November 24, 2009 at 2:21 AM
I’ve been saying this for years, but no longer. It’s like trying to make new bread, using old starter. It looks fresh, but it ends up just as sour as the old stuff.
We just had a “sourdough” candidate for president, and it got us a one-way ticket to national second-class status.
Squiggy on November 24, 2009 at 6:10 AM
A Third Party (with a conservative platform) will guarantee Democrats in power forever.
Anyone see any of the liberal journalists or other Democrats saying how stupid this 3rd party idea is? No, they love it. Split the Republicans in two and the Democrats will win every time.
albill on November 24, 2009 at 6:35 AM
HornetSting on November 23, 2009 at 8:15 PM
What (he/she?) said.
nwsseeker on November 24, 2009 at 6:49 AM
I like Beck but this is not the path we should take. The two parties are already composed of multiple factions. We do not need to formalize it into 3, 4, or 5 parties that will only benefit the liberals. The liberal & moderate party would always collude to marginalize the conservatives. Saying we are trying to impose a theocracy. We would continue down the road to socialism without any real power to stop it. The answer is a renewed republican party that upholds its principles and when they gain power again to begin the process of actually limiting government.
sjramos on November 24, 2009 at 7:12 AM
If you want to do a third party, you need to start small by running candidates at the local level. As you candidates start winning and holding office, you start moving up. I would take decades before you could elect a Senator, and then he would have to caucus with one of the two parties. If you shoot for the stars and run a presidential candidate, you just end up siphoning off votes from someone who is close to you ideologically.
Kafir on November 24, 2009 at 7:32 AM
The best think that Sarah and Glenn could do for the country would be to search out real conservatives running as Republicans and use their star power to endorse them, i.e., Doug Hoffman. Had Hoffman gotten into the race sooner and the RINO hadn’t run, he surely would have won.
If the Party won’t go conservative on their own, then the people of the country can do it as long as the real conservatives are identified and brought into the light. An excellent example of this is the Florida Senate race between Crist and Rubio. Crist immediately got the endorsement of the RNC due to his RINO/career politician status. Little known Rubio is gaining fast on Crist without spending any money purely as a result of grassroots conservatives beginning to ban together. If Palin and Beck endorse Rubio, Crist is done.
In my opinion, this is the best of both worlds without having to organize a third party and ensure more Democrat wins.
orlandocajun on November 24, 2009 at 8:17 AM
What is lost in the concept is that a third party does not need to be a ‘majority’ party. That only happens when one of the two existing parties in a two party system is moribund or corrupt, like the Whig Party in the US that lost its ‘base’ to the Free Soil movement which became the Republican Party.
There does, however, exist a different concept of a third party and it is one that takes some understanding but comes under the title of: Kingmaker.
A Kingmaker third-party is not a majority, but strong minorty party that cannot be easily dislodged. Such a party need only hold 10-15% of the seats in a legislative body with the rest being about equally divided between two major parties. When the two parties come into deadlock, the Kingmaker decides the day by either getting the legislation changed to its liking, or just voting ‘Present’ as it does NOT have to put forward an all-encompassing platform for the Nation nor even one word of legislation on its own. By being an internal veto power, the other two parties must either try to subvert members of the third party, which is hard to do since they all run on a tight an uniform platform, or they must try to ‘take away’ those platform planks by ADOPTING THEM and SUPPORTING THEM, or the two parties coalesce into a single party and those dissatisfied with that course of affairs has a viable option and opposition to turn to.
Truly, if you don’t think outside the two party box, the ways that a third party can work are stuck in an unworkable paradigm structure that discounts a third party as its basis for consideration. If you ask one simple question the type of answer you get becomes clearer: what can a third party do, and what does it need to do that?
You don’t need to start off at 43%, and the two parties have so rigged the system that you CAN’T do that easily. Fighting entrenchment wars inside an established party (like the PUMAs did during 2008) becomes an alienating affair as the party elites over-rule the peons. Thus reforming a corrupt party is much harder than taking an outside position that is intellectually, morally and ethically consistent and taking up a small but significant minorty position to get a coherent platform enacted via stopping legislation and supporting legislation that curbs the avenues for abuse within the legislative structure.
Take a look at the 30-40 ‘swing’ seats in the House. Imagine capturing a portion of those, and perhaps some un-safe two-party districts that are at odds with their Representatives and tell me just how those votes would NOT be in a position to stop legislation with neither party in majorit status?
Similarly 5 to 7 Senators in the upper body. Would that have NOT made a difference with one vote ‘majorities’ then turning into pluralities and needing those 5 to 7 to get ANYTHING passed? Plus you would stop having 97/98/99/100 to 0 laws passed, and even a minority can demonstrate that no law should have unanimous backing no matter how ‘good’ it is for the bureaucracy…and for ‘bi-partisanship’.
I would support a party like that, made up around the restrictive government platform and voting to keep expansive government legislative in check… and denying it a majority at all costs. It would be a hard party to make, formulate and need constant, ongoing work… but that is what republics are made of. Hard work.
ajacksonian on November 24, 2009 at 8:21 AM
The GOP’s new “8 of 10 principles”, litmus test, will go a long way toward restoring my faith in the party (if it’s enforced) though I will support no party that supports the taking of innocent life as policy.
All other issues are secondary to being alive and treating life, all life, with the dignity that nature’s God gave it!
Don L on November 24, 2009 at 8:26 AM
I disagree w/that statement totally, Doc Z. The GOP of 11/7/06 and 11/4/08 remains. While I agree that the Republican Party is “fixable”, they are doing little to self analyze themselves and pinpoint the essence of the problem they have. They’re in denial about it and spend 100% of their time attacking the left. Telling us what we already know about them. Rather than trying to “pull the log out of their own eye…”. The threat of a 3rd party brings teeth to the negotiations and may, indeed, save the Republican Party.
Additionally, I’m not as certain as you that the democrat party can survive or is repairable. They have moved too far left. And a new party may be needed to take the place of this dying democrat party. Darvin Dowdy
Darvin Dowdy on November 24, 2009 at 8:28 AM
I agree Doctor Zero.
But I really love Glenn Beck, third party or not.
It’s up to the Republican Party. Will they listen to Palin? If they don’t, Glenn will then be a threat.
If they do, Glenn can comfortably return again to Republican Party.
TheAlamos on November 24, 2009 at 8:55 AM
Bush senior, with his taxes back-stab, stole victory from himself. There’s a better argument to be made that he stole Perot’s victory, not the other way around.
abobo on November 24, 2009 at 9:02 AM
No 3rd party … fix the GOP
the litmus test is good …
no more retreads …. no more RINO’s
no more Suzzi’s (NY-23) primaries are a GOOD thing.
nominate and support conservative candidates
and hold the local GOP’s feet to the fire …
no RINO’s… no more their turn …
conservatives …. move to the right ….
jqusnr on November 24, 2009 at 9:02 AM
The GOP has changed?
Dr. Z’s picking that up from the media offensive the RNC is running against the theft of our money and rights.
Or maybe his proof is the Unemployment Extension bill; an unfunded mandate on States, most already in the red, that immediately will raise taxes on all business nationwide. Vote 98-0-1. That’s showing ‘em!
The GOP is dead. They’re embarrassed to be capitalists and embarrassed to defend our Constitution.
In the end they may be fixed but only by heavy attrition of the current membership. That won’t come without some virtual blood spilling. Playing their Big Tent game is playing to lose.
America has to DECREASE power in Washington. No one in Washington today of either party can be trusted to do the work that has to be done.
rcl on November 24, 2009 at 10:04 AM
PLEASE, no third parties!!! The most successful third-party run in recent history, Ross Perot in 1992, gave us President Bill Clinton. The far-left third-party run of Ralph Nader in 2000 got 70,000 votes in Florida. Give those votes to Al Gore, and he would have been President.
Even last year, Senator Saxby Chambliss was forced into a runoff because a Libertarian candidate got 3% of the vote, and held Chambliss to slightly below 50% of the total votes cast.
We need to face facts–a third-party run from the Right benefits the Left, by draining away part of the conservative “base” while scaring Independent voters toward the Democrats.
If conservatives want to take power in government, they must do what Reagan did–start by establishing a strong conservative platform within the existing Republican party, then explain them to independent voters as a common-sense solution for America’s problems. Reagan had a rare gift for making conservative principles seem like common sense, and make people comfortable with them.
Conservative commentators like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh are good at pointing out the weaknesses of liberal policy, and rallying the “base” around an alternative, but they could never win elective office.
In 2006, when Republicans lost Congress, one principled conservative Republican challenged a corrupt Republican incumbent in a primary, won the primary and then the general election: Sarah Palin.
Whether she has what it takes to win the Presidency remains to be seen, but her method is correct. At least in Alaska, she did what Reagan did, which is what a conservative needs to do in 2012.
Steve Z on November 24, 2009 at 10:21 AM
Yet another good write by Doctor Zero that re-enforces my personal belief that the third party option is a non-starter from the get go.
Mend it, don’t end it, folks.
itzWicks on November 24, 2009 at 1:50 PM
If every reader of this blog (trolls excepted) joined their local Republican committee that would go a long way towards bringing reform to the Repubs. I joined mine right after McCain became the nominee trying to figure out what the hell was wrong with these guys. There were a lot of good old boys, business as usual types in there.
Since that time, I’ve organized two Tea Parties and several protests and have urged those great attendees to join their local committee and when there was a critical vote about how to allocate funds to a candidate right before the election, we Tea Partiers were just one vote short.
Meaning, we’ve nearly taken over the committee since April.
We’re about to add a few more tea partiers and some of the old faithful have stopped showing up.
That’s where you meet the candidates face to face, make funding decisions, platform decisions, etc. I now know my delegate pretty well, my state senator, our new Atty Gen., and to a lesser degree our Lt. Gov. and Governor, Bob McDonnell. I feel that if I have an issue I can approach any of them directly, which is a first for me.
Beats sitting home, screaming at the TV or computer screen, although that’s fun, too.
pistolero on November 24, 2009 at 4:07 PM
I see things slightly different from most of you. I dont think Beck really cares about having a 3rd party. This all smacks of something that I have seen in many business training seminars. Its a way to make people examine their values and choose one side or another. IOW, a kind of mental threat.
di butler on November 24, 2009 at 4:28 PM
That’s one of the many problems with the Republican Party, “defeat(ing) the Republican left from within the party” NEVER happens, if it did, the Republicans wouldn’t be watching the Party divide over the rinos.
RJL on November 24, 2009 at 6:10 PM
Does anyone want to register as a dem and work on their party from within? They seem to be doing it to the reps.
sleepyhead on November 24, 2009 at 7:51 PM
Doc, you can really turn a phrase.
I agree that the problem with the direction of the Republican Party lies with the leadership. But the real enemy of conservatives is statist lefty’s. We have met the enemy and he is us? Not so much. He is them.
2ipa on November 24, 2009 at 8:08 PM