Open thread: Senate debate on approving debate on Reid plan; Update: Cloture passes, 60-39
posted at 11:07 am on November 21, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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The cloture vote to enable debate, amendments, and assorted Senatorial nonsense on a bill that would revamp 15% of the American economy and put it under the federal thumb has been scheduled for this evening at 8 pm ET, but the debate on the debate has already begun … and it’s already had a moment of ironic nonsense. Harry Reid claimed that a vote against opening debate tonight amounted to an Orwellian action:
“Now he said, anyone who votes for this is going to have a lot of explaining to do,” Reid said during his floor speech today. “Now that is really Orwellian. That is Orwellian. Have a lot of explaing to do if they allow a debate to continue?” …
“All were asking today is to have a debate on it. I mean, why would anyone be afraid in supposedly the greatest debating society in the world
to debate healthcare,” he said. “What are they afraid of?”Reid may have aimed his remarks at the two remaining Democratic holdouts on the motion that needs 60 votes to pass.
You know, a man who wants to put government in charge of making decisions on health care, create “comparative effectiveness” rationing panels, and calls over $500 billion in cuts to Medicare “saving” the program should be cautious about referencing George Orwell and 1984.
Update: Should have mentioned this first, but hat tip to HA commenter Willie for prompting the open thread.
Update (AP): The big question mark, obviously, is Blanche Lincoln, but it’ll be worth watching Nelson’s, Lieberman’s, Bayh’s, and Landrieu’s floor speeches too to see what demands they’re willing to issue publicly for their support going forward. As for tonight’s vote, it’s sort of a free kick for conservatives. Granted, 97 percent of Senate bills that pass this hurdle end up being enacted (so keep calling!), but most bills aren’t remotely as politically fraught as this one. Everyone expects Lincoln to cave and give Reid the 60 he needs — read Jay Cost’s excellent easy peasy three-point analysis for why it’s easy for Blue Dogs to say yes this time — but if she’s sweating now, she’ll be melting down before the final winner-take-all cloture vote a few weeks from now. Notes Cost, “The fact that these Democratic moderates are actually spending time ‘pondering’ whether to vote against starting debate is a sign that they are very skittish about this bill.”
Long story short, tonight is low risk and potentially huge reward. If Lincoln bugs out and the vote fails, it’ll be a nuclear humiliation for the Democrats and will have a lot of people suddenly believing that ObamaCare is un-passable.
Update (AP): Stressing that her yes vote today in no way guarantees a yes on cloture next time, Landrieu says she’s ready to proceed. All eyes on Lincoln now. The Louisiana purchase worked.
Update (AP): Lincoln caves in at 2:30, whining about Republican opposition to any type of reform and demanding at least a debate on how to improve U.S. health care. As I write this, she’s patting herself on the back for resisting both the right and “liberal special interest groups,” but emphasizes that she won’t vote for the Reid bill until the public option is dropped.
That’s 60 votes to proceed, unless someone pulls a very big surprise in the next few hours.
Update: And that’s that. 60-39, promptly at 8 p.m. Next cloture vote, if and when it happens next month or next year, is Armageddon. A hopeful note on a dark night: “It really was that hard for them to get to 60 just to proceed. Very telling.”
Blowback
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I’ve been watching for a while and what jumps out at me first is the Dems are speaking in anecdotes and emotion and the Repubs are speaking in facts.
Willie on November 21, 2009 at 11:12 AM
Memo to liberals: 1984 was a cautionary tale, not an instruction manual.
englishqueen01 on November 21, 2009 at 11:14 AM
I read a blurb on the health care bill that said “an interesting little feature seems to allow any family with any one member eligible for benefits to receive benefits for the entire family. This means that a couple in the US illegally with one US citizen child will receive benefits, including taxpayer assisted benefits. This is why the Hispanic Caucus didn’t bolt: They knew that illegal aliens could get around the health care ban.”
Anyone know anything about this?
byepartisan on November 21, 2009 at 11:15 AM
No, but it doesn’t surprise me at all.
The only people who won’t get access are American citizens who have 50% of their income taxed to pay for everyone else’s health care.
What do we do when this passes the Senate tonight? What are our next steps?
englishqueen01 on November 21, 2009 at 11:16 AM
Lately, if you watch and listen to ol’ Pinky Reid when he makes these pronouncements to the pandering prostrate press, its almost as if he’s got someone holding a gun to his back.
His delivery is that stilted? Odd for a man of “such power”.
singlemalt_18 on November 21, 2009 at 11:17 AM
Senator Reid really is an idiot, and like his intellectual equal in the Speaker’s chair, a perfect example of the Peter Principle in action.
I’d be surprised if he has even read 1984.
Spiny Norman on November 21, 2009 at 11:17 AM
Have Landrieu and Lincoln announced their positions yet? Last night Landrieu said she aws “leaning” towards yes.
I assume they’ll both cave. Saw something on AOSHQ speculating that if Lincoln is defeated in 2010, Obama would offer her Secretary of Agriculture, as Vilsack may want to move on and make big buck as a lobbyist.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 11:19 AM
I relish the NV election when dingy harry is booted out on his ass.
Hand-rubbing the anticipated glee. Like it was with Dasch-hole.
OmahaConservative on November 21, 2009 at 11:19 AM
What’s Orwellian for irony?
Doubleplus unfunny?
David Mickelson on November 21, 2009 at 11:20 AM
Why are we in such a hurry to screw up the Healthcare system?
Juno77 on November 21, 2009 at 11:21 AM
Oh, she’ll be voting “yes” because Reid slipped in a $100 million bribe in the bill for her.
Spiny Norman on November 21, 2009 at 11:23 AM
The Dems don’t want the public to have enough time to get all the facts. They’d be overwhelmingly opposed to it. That’s the rush. Get it into law, and it will never be repealed.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 11:25 AM
If they want to truly debate this, why are they doing on the weekend before a holiday?
If this is so Dam-Fastic, why do they have to hide this vote?
Juno77 on November 21, 2009 at 11:25 AM
Why are we in such a hurry to screw up the Healthcare system?
Juno77 on November 21, 2009 at 11:21 AM
No hurry, they’re going to talk about it for a few hours.
artist on November 21, 2009 at 11:25 AM
Oh hell, Reid already knows his goose is cooked, so he has no reservations whatsoever about screwing the country for permanent Democrat Party power.
Spiny Norman on November 21, 2009 at 11:26 AM
I know about the bribe. I was surpised at her still playing coy. Maybe she thinks if there’s a time lag she won’t look like the wh@re who sold out that she is.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 11:26 AM
Because it’s all about control. Taxes on this monstrosity begin immediately. Watch as unemployment continues to rise as employers can’t pay outrageous taxes, and then when private insurance companies go out of business, watch as it reaches 20, 25, 30%.
If the health care system is so bad, why don’t these regulations begin immediately, instead of 2013?
Once it’s passed, it’s forever. No politician will repeal it, even if Republicans win a majority in 2010 and 2012. Just ain’t happening. It’ll be the third rail of politics.
Enjoy your shortened lifespans.
englishqueen01 on November 21, 2009 at 11:26 AM
They learned well the lessons of the HillaryCare debacle.
Spiny Norman on November 21, 2009 at 11:28 AM
It will also burden am already weak economy with taxes for a supposed benefit that won’t start for several years.
I really should have said:”Why are we in such a hurry to screw up the
Healthcare systemCountry?Juno77 on November 21, 2009 at 11:28 AM
Our government has become individual Americans’ greatest enemy. Even this supposed “debate” is a sham. The real action is behind the scenes, buying a vote here and there. Yesterday’s highly publicized effort to purchase of a senator’s vote is disgusting, yet it is easily dismissed as business as usual for these crooks.
The Obama-Reid-Pelosi gang and their followers are stealing our freedom, as well as the freedom of our grandchildren, who will never be able to experience and therefore understand what it once meant to be an American.
The repulsive destroyers of our country need to be kicked out starting in November 2010, followed by the despicable Obama in 2012.
GaltBlvnAtty on November 21, 2009 at 11:28 AM
Uhh, you Harry. You lying stack of shinoah
MikeA on November 21, 2009 at 11:30 AM
Oh, like the soon-too-be-bankrupt Ponzi scheme known as “Social Security”?
Spiny Norman on November 21, 2009 at 11:31 AM
The ultimate goal of the Obama administration is to bankrupt as many people into government care as possible. The system of government Obama is pushing will create two classes: the extremely poor (read: the former middle and lower income brackets) and the wealthy (read: the Democrats and Hollywood liberals).
Once health care premiums skyrocket, those of us making enough to get by will be facing the choice of paying outrageous insurance costs or having the government plan.
Once cap and trade passes and energy prices go through the roof, those of us making enough to get by will have to have the government help because we can’t afford to pay double, triple, quadruple our costs for heat/energy.
Once unemployment is 30% and many of us can’t find jobs, we’ll have to rely on the government to pay our rents, our food, and our other basic necessities.
The goal is to make sure as many people as possible are on the dole, thus entrenching the government with Democrats until we’re all dead, because no one can turn the economy around fast enough to get people out of welfare and into the workforce without jeopardizing their standard of living.
So if Obama doesn’t want a second term, he doesn’t need one. The socialist utopia will be accomplished before the 2010 midterms. Then he can go to Hawaii and live in peace watching the rest of us live in equal poverty and hardship.
englishqueen01 on November 21, 2009 at 11:31 AM
Because it’s not Dem-FAstic, it’s socialist. So it has to be done in a hurry before people find out what htey’re up to.
The long term goal is to control as much of the economy as possible.
Banking.
Automotive industry
Other manufacuring (through environemtnal regulation)
Education (college loas for students will be done only by government from now on)
Philanthropy (The SERVE Act will help “fund” charities, which will then be under fed regulations).
This, along with heavy taxation, allows them to remake society into one that is “fair,” with massive redistribution of wealth from the haves to have-nots, ensuring have-nots are reliable votes for Dems.
Add in federal judges who will find all sorts of new economic and social “rights,” and you have their Brave New World.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 11:32 AM
Once it’s passed, it’s forever. No politician will repeal it, even if Republicans win a majority in 2010 and 2012. Just ain’t happening. It’ll be the third rail of politics.
englishqueen01 on November 21, 2009 at 11:26 AM
Absolutely correct.
artist on November 21, 2009 at 11:32 AM
And whenever someone talks about making changes, the charge from the left is, “See! They’re taking away your INCOME!” Hence, this nightmare is here. Forever.
englishqueen01 on November 21, 2009 at 11:32 AM
What’s Orwellian for irony you ask? How about “Some are more equal than others.”
Oink on November 21, 2009 at 11:33 AM
Any Dem’s losing their elections are guaranteed a spot in one of the new beaurocracies. I’m not surprised they can be bribed, just how cheaply.
Jeff2161 on November 21, 2009 at 11:37 AM
englishqueen01
Next step; short of taking to the streets, the only hope is to “starve the beast”. As a result of the recession, revenue to the IRS is down dramatically (20%+ last I heard). Tax dollars are going to be needed to fund this as well as all the other planned boondoggles. If America wakes up in time, we just all stop paying taxes and starve the beast. If not, we become amerika.
mountainmanbob on November 21, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Every Republican needs to open and close his/her remarks with “the federal government has no constitutional authority for this” much like Cato the Elder closed every remark with “Carthago delenda est” even if he wasn’t talking about Carthage. M
ake every attempt to remind the Marxists that we still have a Constitutionally limited government.
DerKrieger on November 21, 2009 at 11:38 AM
I’m not quite convinced of that. I believe the GOP can offer up a plan of tort reform, portability (buy insurance across state lines), and offer a huge tax break on top of that, an it will be repealed. Folks won’t be hooked up with healthcare until after 2010. They’ll just be feeling the pain of the tax increases.
Oink on November 21, 2009 at 11:39 AM
Senator Jeff Sessions made entirely too much sense. Let one brave Senator demand they read the entire bill out loud in the Senate before the vote, continuous quorum calls to keep the Dem’s there too.
Jeff2161 on November 21, 2009 at 11:40 AM
What’s Orwellian for “Orwellian”: I’m from the government and I am her to help.
EMD on November 21, 2009 at 11:41 AM
Folks won’t be hooked up with healthcare until after 2010.
Oink on November 21, 2009 at 11:39 AM
I thought it was 2012 or 2013?
artist on November 21, 2009 at 11:41 AM
Too bad we can’t stick Congress with this plan.
Hening on November 21, 2009 at 11:41 AM
Let one brave Senator demand they read the entire bill out loud in the Senate before the vote, continuous quorum calls to keep the Dem’s there too.
Jeff2161 on November 21, 2009 at 11:40 AM
The punk R’s would rather go home for Thanksgiving, than read the bill and do their job.
This is why we’re phuqued.
artist on November 21, 2009 at 11:42 AM
Taxes start in 2010. Health care coverage changes in 2013, after the 2012 presidential election, of course.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 11:43 AM
I disagree. It doesn’t go into effect until 2014 but the taxes start immediately. I suspect with three years of taxes there will plenty of support for killing it.
If it does pass what are you (all of us) going to do? Say “oh well”, accept defeat and move on? Have middle class Americans, those most negatively impacted by this monstrosity, grown so comfortable with their lives that they will accept any tyranny?
Have we lost our will to fight? What about a strategic shift to the states and electing state governments that will either seriously discuss secession of nullification of unconstitutional legislation? We need not be prisoners in our own country.Conservatives are the majority. Why the Hell would we accept these Marxists as our overlords? Why would we accept anyone as our masters here in America?
DerKrieger on November 21, 2009 at 11:43 AM
Good point.
Imagine Harry Reid being the one who determines whether or not you’ll get that chemotherapy.
Okay, next question: how do we do that? It’s not rhetorical, it’s genuine, because I have no idea how to go Gault. I’m already not working and can’t find a job, so they’re not getting any taxes from me.
My husband’s income is above, but not dramatically so, the federal poverty level for a family of 4. If I can’t find work, we’re moving in with my father-in-law, and then I might not have to work for a while but take care of things for him (he needs help) and raise my boys (while the government still allows me to).
I also highly recommend any of you who are conservative and physicians, nurses, PA’s, NP’s, etc. begin thinking of ways and terms under which you’ll operate an underground network. I may not be able to pay out-of-pocket up front, but if you treat people, I bet they’d make monthly payments.
As a Catholic who does not believe in contraception, I easily foresee the likes of Pelosicare offering me only abortion as an alternative when the next kid comes along…after all, having more than 1 or 2 is bad for the environment. And really expensive.
englishqueen01 on November 21, 2009 at 11:44 AM
Why are we in such a hurry to screw
up the Healthcaresystem?the American people?Juno77 on November 21, 2009 at 11:21 AM
FTFY
VegasRick on November 21, 2009 at 11:44 AM
All good things come to an end. America lasted a solid 230 years, not bad historically speaking. And as all great nations, it was killed not by outsiders but from within.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 11:45 AM
Taxes start in 2010. Health care coverage changes in 2013, after the 2012 presidential election, of course.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 11:43 AM
Yes, that was my understanding.
artist on November 21, 2009 at 11:45 AM
The GOP promised Reid they wouldn’t do that in exchange for getting ten hours of debate. Vote at 8 pm and then eveyrone gets to go home for the holiday.
Better be home for the holiday than save this free republic and the last chance to save the economy, right? Convenience over principle. That’s the Stupid Party.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 11:45 AM
All good things come to an end. America lasted a solid 230 years, not bad historically speaking. And as all great nations, it was killed not by outsiders but from within.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 11:45 AM
Yup.
I do predict there will be a major standoff between the Feds and at least one state. Probably TX.
At which time tons of people will move to that state and embolden it.
This could be the beginning of the end.
artist on November 21, 2009 at 11:47 AM
The Republicans have to have someway of negotiating with blue dogs to pull away votes. Money, power, leverage… I don’t care.
Now’s the time to stop this monstrosity.
Skywise on November 21, 2009 at 11:47 AM
The middle class loves this. It’s free health care man. This means more money for the 78″ TV to watch ESPN on. What more could Joe 6 Pack ask for? Tyranny…that’s one of those crazy right wing words that Katie Couric talks about.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 11:49 AM
Skywise, I don’t think they will stop it. They could have held it up, but they folded.
They’re grandstanding right now, but it’s meaningless.
Vera on November 21, 2009 at 11:49 AM
I didn’t mean that. I meant the US will wither away and become the UK or France. Still exist in its current state but nothing special, a run of the mill country with a once great past.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 11:50 AM
I understand your sentiment, but I don’t think that will work realistically or happen. If this bill is passed, don’t the tax increases begin immediately? If the healthcare doesn’t begin until 2013 (a fact that most Americans don’t know, but will soon enough) and the taxes begin immediately, as Rush said–aren’t the Dems being kamikazes with their political power and elected positions?
I cannot foresee Americans enjoying an increase in taxes (less of their money) coupled with rising costs and nothing to show for it. Oh yeah, skyrocketing unemployment.
I really hope this thing doesn’t pass, but must face reality that it probably will. It’s utterly depressing.
conservative pilgrim on November 21, 2009 at 11:50 AM
Then I’m going to TX. We have one family member and some friends down there.
Heck, if one of you is from TX, I’ll be willing to be an indentured servant in exchange for escaping the tyranny of our federal government. Just give us a place to stay and a gun to stave off the feds and consider your house/yard work done for the next several years.
englishqueen01 on November 21, 2009 at 11:51 AM
enblishqueen01
This country has a history of tax revolt. People are only going to pay so much. As achievement and success is punished financially, people will reach a point when it becomes obvious that it just isn’t worth it. I’m almost there, I’m sure there are lots of others. Someone may come forward and propose a tax revolt and I predict it will have substantial support.
mountainmanbob on November 21, 2009 at 11:51 AM
Will the Republicans ask for the bill to be read? They said they would and I doubted they would do it. Any word on this? Was it a bluff?
conservative pilgrim on November 21, 2009 at 11:52 AM
And like all things the public considers “free”, this type of system would be abused (think of those calling 911 because they got shorted two fries at McDonalds). Therefore, the government will have to set laws and penalties about how and when you can visit your government clinic.
Oh, but don’t worry, you can take the blue or red pill and get back to work.
katablog.com on November 21, 2009 at 11:52 AM
Arizona, maybe, which amended its constitution to give people the right not to be required to enter into any contracts. Will had a column on it.
I expect you might see a few more states do the same, as they have with amending constitutions on the definition of marriage.
When states and federal statutes conflict, the state statute usually gives way, but a state constitution protecting a right is another matter. States can grant rights in addition to those itn eh US constitution, which is why several have an ERA, like PA does.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 11:52 AM
If passed, the bill would only be repealable with a veto-proof GOP majority. Even with the country this angry, the math for open and contested seats doesn’t work out that stongly to our favor.
Steve H in AZ on November 21, 2009 at 11:53 AM
I didn’t mean that. I meant the US will wither away and become the UK or France. Still exist in its current state but nothing special, a run of the mill country with a once great past.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 11:50 AM
I know and I agree.
But I add that in the meantime, there will be a certain (significant) segment of this society that will not roll-over.
There will be a challenge.
It might start as civil disobedience but who knows how it ends.
This country could very well split.
artist on November 21, 2009 at 11:53 AM
Once again all the pundits and experts were wrong. How many times did you all hear “no way this bill passes the Senate with 60″ or “this bill is DOA in the senate” or “Dems will not vote with Obama once his poll numbers tank”.
Yeah, how’s all that working out for you? This was a done deal 6 months ago. The rest has been for show.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 11:53 AM
I don’t remember who Greta was interviewing last night, it was a republican senator though, he said if the vote passes tonight they only need 51 votes for cloture and Reid has that. I know my 2 senators will be in the 50 votes needed to pass this piece of crap.
If I understood the senator last night they only need one 60 senate vote for this to become law. If it passes in the senate we know Nan will keep it the same way and it will pass in the house.
Brat4life on November 21, 2009 at 11:54 AM
A good point, and perhaps one flaw in this. If people don’t see the benfits, the “GOP will take away your benefits!” argument doesn’t work as well. Oh, they can trot out the sob stories like they have today, But people aren’t used to seeing an actual economic benefit they’ve come to depend. But they see the money flow out immediately.
The Bush tax cuts expire next year, too, I believe.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Hence the reason O-Bow-Mao says he probably won’t run again. No one would elect him once this thing is shoved down American’s throats. He probably also fully understands that it can’t be implemented for the costs the House and Senate are claiming and wants to be off with Michelle in Kenya, writing books and being treated as a rock star.
katablog.com on November 21, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Which is exactly why the vote will pass tonight.
They’re determined to pass some godawful bill. I’ve lowered my expectations to the point where, at best, the public option will get stripped out……supposing Reid doesn’t try and stick it in via reconciliation.
Vyce on November 21, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Hey, we’ll take every conservative who wants to come to Texas. Right now we’re facing a demographic shift that will probably move the state blue within the next decade.
Vera on November 21, 2009 at 11:56 AM
Which means they WANT it.
Skywise on November 21, 2009 at 11:56 AM
Only 50% of the population pays any taxes. Of the 50% that does, 1/3 or so are committed Dems. There’s no way out.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 11:57 AM
Democrats are in it for the long term power grab:
2009: pass healthcare, begin collecting money for it.
2010: Economy limps along, Democrats sustain heavy losses
2012: Economy stabilizes in spite of Dem Policies, plus two years worth of taxes have been collected for health benefits that haven’t yet been given. It looks like Dems have reduced the federal defecit “See our policies work!” BO is re-elected. Dems take back the house. Still own the Senate.
2014: Benefits for Healthcare start kicking in. In the meantime, healthcare costs have risen even faster as the entire industry prepares for what’s coming. Costs are out of control. Dems: “Greedy health insurance companies, doctors, pharm, etc haven’t been able to keep costs down.” All triggers kick in.
2015 and beyond: Single. Payer. Healthcare.
Since Single Payer cannot be implemented without a huge beurocracy in place, they need a bridge. This is the bridge to get there.
Youngs98 on November 21, 2009 at 11:57 AM
“but it’ll be worth watching Nelson’s, Lieberman’s, Bayh’s, and Landrieu’s floor speeches too to see what demands they’re willing to issue publicly for their support going forward.”
Lieberman?
BallisticBob on November 21, 2009 at 11:57 AM
I think back to the scenes from Claire McCaskill’s town halls. People screaming. Furious. Laughing at the promises of “surpluses”. “Don’t you trust me?” “NO!”
All for naught.
Marcus on November 21, 2009 at 11:58 AM
They need 60 for cloture.
But Reid can do one of two things. Go for “reconciliation,” which requires 51 votes, and reconciles this with a previous bill that has a provision this. Byrd doesn’t like this, as it is a narrowly drawn rule for reconciling budget items. Reid has said he won’t use it, but who trusts him.
2) Pull out a bill that has passed cloture, and offer this whole health care bill as an amendment to it.
And Biden will be standing by if Harry can only get 50 Dems.
Either could set off some GOP to grind the Senate to a halt. This bill is not the same as the House bill, so they still have to go to committee, and work out a compromise bill. Then each house votes on the compromise (51 votes needed in Senate).
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 11:59 AM
Did you see what the sneaky Dems are doing now? They will have to raise taxes (and ration healthcare services) to pay for this monstrosity. So Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) says taxes will have to be raised in order to pay for the war in Afghanistan.
They will tax “the rich,” those making over $200k (single) and over $250k (married/joint), which is not “rich.” In large cities, that income bracket is the middle class. And most of the urban centers are in states in which taxes are breaking people’s bank accounts (NYC, LA, Chicago).
If the Democrats raise taxes using this explanation–people might agree. Or the Dems can say people don’t want their taxes raised and then they can pull out of Afghanistan “justifiably.”
conservative pilgrim on November 21, 2009 at 12:00 PM
Yep. I feel like I was played too. Silly me, actually thinking a politician would listen to the will of the people. And the sad thing is McCaskill will probably get re-elected another 3 or 4 times.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 12:00 PM
Oh no… keep your powder dry… the fight is just about to begin.
McCain’s runing the GOP at the moment which is why we’re getting socialism-lite from them. That’s about to change.
But never, ever give up hope.
Skywise on November 21, 2009 at 12:00 PM
Dems in red states LIED to their voters, telling them they were conservative.
They will be responsible for ripping this country to shreds.
People are boiling with anger and they think this is a joke.
They truly don’t understand what is coming.
artist on November 21, 2009 at 12:01 PM
Coburn folded. The powers that be of the Republican party didn’t want it.
“Coburn, who had been threatening to force the 2,000-page bill to be read into the record, apparently has backed off — for now.
“I agreed to the wishes of my leadership,” Coburn reportedly told CongressDaily. ”
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20091121_16_A1_WASHIN50220
Vera on November 21, 2009 at 12:01 PM
Or Nancy could just vote on this bill straight up and then there is no need for a second vote or a committee. I think that is the most likely scenario since will pass whatever comes out of the senate.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 12:02 PM
It doesn’t matter what they demand. Once the debate is open it doesn’t matter what Nelson, Lieberman, Bayh, or Landrieu want. They only need 50 votes. This is going to be pushed through via the nuke option. They don’t have 11 senators that will vote against it. It’s done. They just had to bribe the right people and they did. A vote today is a vote for the bill. Doesn’t matter what the final vote is. Joe Blow will cast the deciding vote. Which is what sucks the most.
Brat4life on November 21, 2009 at 12:03 PM
Excellent.
publiuspen on November 21, 2009 at 12:03 PM
The ony issue is how much it will cost to buy the needed final votes….As Landrieu is already bought and paid for and the details known, Nelson bought with the price unknown that only leaves Lincoln and I have no reason to believe she does not have a price.
JIMV on November 21, 2009 at 12:03 PM
Some R’s want this to pass so they can sweep into the majority next year.
And they will do nothing about it.
artist on November 21, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Anyone know of Byrd’s and Baucus’ status? Ed noted earlier tha Baucus was back in Montana visiting his sick mother (but promised to return, and I expect Air Force One would be sent to get him if needed.)
Byrd has been sick this term and only showed up a handful of times. They’d probably wheel him in in a hospital bed if they had to.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Apologies if this has been written already:
Kit Bond (R-Missouri) on the floor a while ago: “Move over Bernie Maydoff, get ready for a trillion dollar scam”
Rovin on November 21, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Yes, but this bill will increase nearly everyone’s taxes. Factor in the rising costs in food, gas, products, services for inflation….unemployment may reach Great Depression levels. It will break the bank. The Democrats will be responsible.
The difference now is an alternative media that can and will inform the public.
The Bush tax cuts will expire next year, and every married couple and those with children will see an increase, including us. *sigh* It’s a bunch of crap what the Dems say about Bush’s tax cuts.
conservative pilgrim on November 21, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Sorry, that sounds conspiratorial. Names and links?
conservative pilgrim on November 21, 2009 at 12:07 PM
Possibly, since the Senate version doesn’t have Stupak language. The public option might not be as strong as the House bill, but they can always enlarge it. I forget if the Senate veriosn has a “trigger” or a full public option.
Nancy would probably ram the trigger version down her caucus’ throat.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 12:07 PM
I can’t remember who Greta intervieed last night. He said the ground work is layed and they only need 51 votes after this is voted on tonight. He said Reid has those votes lined up. Something is going on. This is where to stop this bill he said.
Brat4life on November 21, 2009 at 12:07 PM
conservative pilgrim
The problem is that I do not believe this economy can sustain all that has been thrown at it for much longer. It is a tribute to how strong our economy is that it has held up as well as it has, this long. This debt is unsustainable, the currency is being destroyed, unemployment will continue to rise and China, Japan and the Arabs will soon stop buying our debt. This cannot go on for long. How many more election cycles do we have? What sign from the RepublicRATS is there that they will make the bold, fundamental changes necessary to right the ship?
mountainmanbob on November 21, 2009 at 12:08 PM
Last night, I was talking to my husband about this. I pondered out loud what it would take for this insanity to be stopped in its tracks.
His response? Let’s just say we’d rather not risk a visit from the Secret Service.
newton on November 21, 2009 at 12:08 PM
If the republicans in nexgt years new majority do not stop the funding fr the scheme, they will have a 2 year majority and be back in the minority after the 2012 election…
JIMV on November 21, 2009 at 12:09 PM
I agree. But my point is Joe 6 Pack won’t know what is happening. Gas price up? That’s BIG OIL to blame. Unemployment up? That’s because of Wall St don’t you know? Bush tax cuts expire…if your tax bill is $0, who cares?
And alternative media while nice to have is really a small corner of the world. The vast majority of people still get their news from the 11 oclock local news, CBS/NBC/ABC, CNN and their local newspapers. And those are 95% liberal.
I hate to be such a pessimist but I just don’t see much hope out there.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 12:10 PM
It is a mistake to base opposition to this disaster mainly on the abortion issue: It is American freedom that is being taken away.
GaltBlvnAtty on November 21, 2009 at 12:11 PM
If it’s reconciliation, Reid has publicly said he wouldn’t use it. But who knows what his promises are worth.
The second option is the “shell” version, where they take a bill already passed cloture, remove the content and add this bill in as an amendment. That would only require 51 votes to amend and 51 to pass.
At that point, of course, someone could ask for the full bill to be read. I think the GOP’s stupid agreement on not asking for a reading only covered not insisting on reading it before this particular vote.
Wethal on November 21, 2009 at 12:12 PM
I don’t have much hope right now. Democrats lie. It’s what they do. No matter what they promise, we’re going to end up with an abortion funding, illegal alien covering, death panel containing, service rationing, government run health care plan.
That’s what they’ve wanted from day one, and Republicans refuse to do everything in their power to stop it.
Vera on November 21, 2009 at 12:13 PM
Coburn should require the bill to be read. Republican leadership, so called, gets no results. This should be total war in defense of individual Americans.
GaltBlvnAtty on November 21, 2009 at 12:14 PM
Hitler told Chamberlain as well that he would not invade Czechoslovakia after the Munich appeasement.
technopeasant on November 21, 2009 at 12:15 PM
The ones changing the state toward blue are likely Californiacs bailing from the mess they created there. I’ve seen this happen before: Seattle. Once it was a lovely place – yes, liberals, but not radical liberals.
Now Seattle has been Californicated into a city with high crime, horrible traffic, sky-high cost of living and housing….. Los Angeles with constant rain.
That’s why I moved to Texas nearly 20 years ago.
tru2tx on November 21, 2009 at 12:17 PM
GaltBlvnAtty,
I was thrilled when I heard Coburn say last week he was proposing the bill be read in its entirety. He will probably fold like an accordian. There is no leadership. The Republicans are invertabrates, the DemoncRATS are insane.
mountainmanbob on November 21, 2009 at 12:18 PM
Amd I belive your husband to be correct.
BallisticBob on November 21, 2009 at 12:19 PM
They have no power to stop it. Only stall it. It’s a car wreck that’s already happening, you can’t stop it just watch in horror as it happens.
Brat4life on November 21, 2009 at 12:19 PM
Is a Lincoln YES 60 even with a Lieberman NO? I thought to get 60 they’d need Joe as well.
angryed on November 21, 2009 at 12:21 PM
It’s probably the second option then. This sucks and we will hear the cheering again tonight. It’s just sickning.
Brat4life on November 21, 2009 at 12:21 PM
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