Open thread: Senate debate on approving debate on Reid plan; Update: Cloture passes, 60-39

posted at 11:07 am on November 21, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

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The cloture vote to enable debate, amendments, and assorted Senatorial nonsense on a bill that would revamp 15% of the American economy and put it under the federal thumb has been scheduled for this evening at 8 pm ET, but the debate on the debate has already begun … and it’s already had a moment of ironic nonsense.  Harry Reid claimed that a vote against opening debate tonight amounted to an Orwellian action:

“Now he said, anyone who votes for this is going to have a lot of explaining to do,” Reid said during his floor speech today. “Now that is really Orwellian. That is Orwellian. Have a lot of explaing to do if they allow a debate to continue?” …

“All were asking today is to have a debate on it. I mean, why would anyone be afraid in supposedly the greatest debating society in the world
to debate healthcare,” he said. “What are they afraid of?”

Reid may have aimed his remarks at the two remaining Democratic holdouts on the motion that needs 60 votes to pass.

You know, a man who wants to put government in charge of making decisions on health care, create “comparative effectiveness” rationing panels, and calls over $500 billion in cuts to Medicare “saving” the program should be cautious about referencing George Orwell and 1984.

Update: Should have mentioned this first, but hat tip to HA commenter Willie for prompting the open thread.

Update (AP): The big question mark, obviously, is Blanche Lincoln, but it’ll be worth watching Nelson’s, Lieberman’s, Bayh’s, and Landrieu’s floor speeches too to see what demands they’re willing to issue publicly for their support going forward. As for tonight’s vote, it’s sort of a free kick for conservatives. Granted, 97 percent of Senate bills that pass this hurdle end up being enacted (so keep calling!), but most bills aren’t remotely as politically fraught as this one. Everyone expects Lincoln to cave and give Reid the 60 he needs — read Jay Cost’s excellent easy peasy three-point analysis for why it’s easy for Blue Dogs to say yes this time — but if she’s sweating now, she’ll be melting down before the final winner-take-all cloture vote a few weeks from now. Notes Cost, “The fact that these Democratic moderates are actually spending time ‘pondering’ whether to vote against starting debate is a sign that they are very skittish about this bill.”

Long story short, tonight is low risk and potentially huge reward. If Lincoln bugs out and the vote fails, it’ll be a nuclear humiliation for the Democrats and will have a lot of people suddenly believing that ObamaCare is un-passable.

Update (AP): Stressing that her yes vote today in no way guarantees a yes on cloture next time, Landrieu says she’s ready to proceed. All eyes on Lincoln now. The Louisiana purchase worked.

Update (AP): Lincoln caves in at 2:30, whining about Republican opposition to any type of reform and demanding at least a debate on how to improve U.S. health care. As I write this, she’s patting herself on the back for resisting both the right and “liberal special interest groups,” but emphasizes that she won’t vote for the Reid bill until the public option is dropped.

That’s 60 votes to proceed, unless someone pulls a very big surprise in the next few hours.

Update: And that’s that. 60-39, promptly at 8 p.m. Next cloture vote, if and when it happens next month or next year, is Armageddon. A hopeful note on a dark night: “It really was that hard for them to get to 60 just to proceed. Very telling.”


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Nice. Now We have an extra something to be Thankful for this week. Apparently greed and fear are not the only instincts that guide this great nations. We can do good things as well.

Happy Sunday, y’all. It’s a beautiful day where I live; hope it is for you, too.

Bleeds Blue on November 22, 2009 at 9:06 AM

Greed and fear are wholly owned notions of the democrat party and government in general.

Glorious revolution comrade. Pray this war doesn’t go hot. You aren’t getting into my camp.

daesleeper on November 22, 2009 at 12:10 PM

I’m interested to see that our deaths at the hands of our big and bloated governemtn is such a source of joy for you.

I hope your disease goes first before the death panel and you are told point blank that your life is not worth the money it would take to save it.

Then your attitude today will haunt your survivors.

petunia on November 22, 2009 at 12:06 PM

I’m always delighted to see that the other side is as bitter and as ignorant as I suspected. My wish for you, is that in a moment of crisis — say, someone you love has been laid off or is trying to get a job with a pre-existing condition — that they have the coverage they need to get the care they need.

I feel that you must be very unhappy to wish evil on others.

How was church?

Bleeds Blue on November 22, 2009 at 12:15 PM

Church was great! We learned about the freedom that God created us with and how in I Samuel chapter 8 God warns His people of the tyranny of governments.

How about you ignoramus?

daesleeper on November 22, 2009 at 12:19 PM

What’s Orwellian for “irony”?

I nominate this for best subtitle

What is not Orwellian about the drama dog-and-pony?

Without wishing to insult Orwell, what is not Ayn-Randian about the players?

Mr. Joe on November 22, 2009 at 12:09 PM

sadly used the correct language for the transaction. And the lady is triumphant.

It was written in histories not used in schools that Cleopatra was rumored to have serviced the entire Roman Senate when she visited Rome. Probably a rumor begun in the Roman Senate, very possibly some truth. Since the Roman Senate had degenerated, there was likely more truth about scandal than substance

The lady is wrapped in Katrina and shall use that as her shield of defense.

Shakespearean, the entire show:

Re-enter SEYTON

Wherefore was that cry?

SEYTON
The queen, my lord, is dead.

MACBETH
She should have died hereafter;
There would have been a time for such a word.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

entagor on November 22, 2009 at 12:21 PM

$300 million, $100 million, whatever. They overpaid. I hear Mary Landrieu would have serviced them all for about $50.
Mr Joe

Blanche Lincoln is a more classy whore. Buying her takes $51 and an a bottle of Ripple wine.

Ben Nelson? Maybe a foot tap in the men’s room.

MaiDee on November 22, 2009 at 12:27 PM

Apparently greed and fear are not the only instincts that guide this great nations. We can do good things as well.

Bleeds Blue on November 22, 2009 at 9:06 AM

How is it greedy to want to keep more of MY MONEY and not want to be a the mercy of the gubmint for how much I can keep. More over how it is greedy to think the govt has no business telling me what I should buy? And how is it not fearful to think if the govt can penalize me for NOT buying something I don’t want, their power knows no bounds?

Yes the govt has the potential to do good things….stay the hell out of our lives.

Fed45 on November 22, 2009 at 12:43 PM

American Revolution II
Chapter 1.

As the elected officials of our country continued to ignore the pleas and growing concerns of the citizens, a forceful movement was gaining energy. The streets were filled with citizens angry about new health care legislation that then President Barack Obama promised would be ‘deficit neutral’. While some people believed that this bill would improve health care and save money, it was effective in achieving the opposite of that goal. In retrospect, the absurd, preposterous claim by Democrats that this bill would actually lower the deficit was shear lunacy – a quick glance back into history will show that not a single government entitlement plan has ever had a true net cost of less than 9x it’s original estimate. The forthcoming economic collapse of 2010 can be directly linked to the negative impact this bill had on small businesses and middle class families. With current 2009 unemployment skyrocketing past 10%, credit shortages outside of wall street, and pending cap & trade legislation, small businesses united and agreed to freeze hiring new employees until the repeal of Barack Obama’s new taxation scheme. This was seen as the catalyst of what we now refer to as the ‘Business vs Government Civil War of 2010′. With tax revenues now at an all time low, the federal government is being forced to borrow trillions of dollars from China to perpetuate their statist welfare programs……………………then the revolt started, and Americans did what Americans know how to do best, fight for freedom and independence from a tyrannical government.

Fishy.Gov on November 22, 2009 at 12:45 PM

I’m always delighted to see that the other side is as bitter and as ignorant as I suspected. My wish for you, is that in a moment of crisis — say, someone you love has been laid off or is trying to get a job with a pre-existing condition — that they have the coverage they need to get the care they need.

Don’t give me this false outrage. Why is it MY responsibility to INVOLUNTARILY pay for your financial situation? If it is someone I love I will gladly do that…VOLUNTARILY..if I can afford to. We also have these things called “charities”…perhaps you heard of them? BTW, the FED GOVT is not a charity.

We also have this thing called Medicaid, and Clinton’s patient’s bill of rights, that covers the care needs you speak of. I agree that people should have access to medical care. But they don’t have a right for someone else to be paying for their insurance.

Fed45 on November 22, 2009 at 12:50 PM

Lieberman has an excellent statement on some of the more glaring problems with this bill today.

People are going to flip out.

AnninCA on November 22, 2009 at 12:55 PM

say, someone you love has been laid off or is trying to get a job with a pre-existing condition

Bleeds Blue on November 22, 2009 at 12:15 PM

Here’s a guy who’s not read the HIPAA laws.

Fed45 on November 22, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Hmmm*…lost my post, for some reason.

Plus, Meet the Press spent half the time debating the great mammogram and pap smear debate. I’m anxiously awaiting the same discussion points over erectile dysfunction.

“This bill WILL cover this all-important marriage-saving treatment. After all, we are FOR family values.” *haha

AnninCA on November 22, 2009 at 12:59 PM

The way Congress works, we have the best Congress that money can buy!”–Eleanor Clift, McLaughlin Report, 11-22-09

NO KIDDING! Bought and paid for Democrat majority Congress.

maverick muse on November 22, 2009 at 1:00 PM

Was talking to someone yesterday whose kid is recovering from open heart surgery at three months. Not sure how they paid for it, he’s a farmer so he’s in a tough position, and I though, “jeez,maybe the pre-existing condition from birth won’t make this kid uninsurable or unemployable for the next sixty years, now.”

Nice to think that in the richest country on earth you can get to a doctor when you need to.

Bleeds Blue on November 22, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Lieberman has an excellent statement on some of the more glaring problems with this bill today.

People are going to flip out.

AnninCA on November 22, 2009 at 12:55 PM

From the roll call, it would appear that Lieberman is part of the problem. If there were so many problems with the bill, why did he vote for it?

Where did you see his statement?

2ipa on November 22, 2009 at 1:57 PM

Nice to think that in the richest country on earth you can get to a doctor when you need to.

Bleeds Blue on November 22, 2009 at 1:54 PM

You mean this happened before 2014? How could that be? Yes we really do have something to be thankful for this week.

2ipa on November 22, 2009 at 2:00 PM

Something bothered me about the Landrieu $200 million payoff for her healthcare vote: $200 million was too much. Even in a vote as this, Senators come cheaper

I had a talk with the smartest person I knew who said Landrieu had a Catholic state and a tough re-election situation

On the surface, it is a trophy for Landrieu playing hard ball

In reality it is a great excuse to feed the DEM machine more tax dollars than they could ever normally get away with

Yes Reid was forced, forced by Landrieu to pay $200 million to get one vote

Landrieu might even be outside the loop and think she pulled a big one. I would keep her outside my loop

In any case the more Landrieu crows in triumph, the more she covers the tax avalanche slushing the machine. pumping the veins of every ballot stuffing operation in the state

entagor on November 22, 2009 at 2:19 PM

People are going to flip out.
AnninCA on November 22, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Ann, where did you see or hear this from?

yoda on November 22, 2009 at 2:49 PM

Mary Landreiu is a traitor to my state and my Nation! May she go down in infamy, reviled as much as Benedict Arnold. She has sold us out for a bribe for N O. Time for statewide recall. I am ashamed she is from my state.

LSUMama on November 21, 2009 at 1:03 PM

LSUMama on November 22, 2009 at 3:03 PM

Nice to think that in the richest country on earth you can get to a doctor when you need to.

Bleeds Blue on November 22, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Hmmm – I don’t know what country you live in (sounds like it must be either Canada or Britain) – but here in America – that has always been the case.

Whoops, wait a minute – maybe you live in China – they are buying all our debt (so far)- thus making them the richest.

Oopsdaisy on November 22, 2009 at 3:05 PM

prostitution in the Philippines (or Louisiana)

May we please refer to a “whore” as a whore. The monosyllabic saves time, space, and rolls off the tongue more easily.

oldleprechaun on November 22, 2009 at 3:32 PM

Bleeds Blue on November 22, 2009 at 9:06 AM

Get a checkup while you still can.

Better yet, don’t.

Jim Treacher on November 22, 2009 at 4:08 PM

One can only conclude that they KNOW they’re going to pay a price for this politically, they KNOW their window of opportunity is limited, which is why they’re trying to ram as much of this stuff through as quickly as possible before they’re thrown out of office. Because they know it’ll be nearly impossible to repeal.

If that doesn’t scare the hell out of you, it should.

Cylor on November 22, 2009 at 4:27 AM
——————————–

You make an excellent point – however – the “There are certain laws you can never repeal” argument is a weak position. It may have worked at one time, but you know, the right to own slaves was once law.

blaque jacques on November 22, 2009 at 4:28 PM

You make an excellent point – however – the “There are certain laws you can never repeal” argument is a weak position. It may have worked at one time, but you know, the right to own slaves was once law.

blaque jacques on November 22, 2009 at 4:28 PM

It would be nice to avoid another Civil War, doncha think?

Jim Treacher on November 22, 2009 at 4:32 PM

“A Republic, if you can keep it”
- Ben Franklin

Enough said?

Oopsdaisy on November 22, 2009 at 4:39 PM

It would be nice to avoid another Civil War, doncha think?

Jim Treacher on Nov 22, ’09

Nobody is talking about another Civil War. It will be far worse than that – Revolutionary, to restore a Constitutional government. If we don’t get there, we may end up as another renegade province of China.

Hammie on November 22, 2009 at 4:47 PM

Was talking to someone yesterday whose kid is recovering from open heart surgery at three months. Not sure how they paid for it, he’s a farmer so he’s in a tough position, and I though, “jeez,maybe the pre-existing condition from birth won’t make this kid uninsurable or unemployable for the next sixty years, now.”

Nice to think that in the richest country on earth you can get to a doctor when you need to.

For now. Under Obamacare, surely some panel will decide this baby wasn’t worth saving, especially if he wasn’t their first. He’ll be one of those “cost saving” measures Obama talks about.

Didn’t Rahm Emmanuel’s brother pen some article in which babies and the elderly weren’t given preference? And given the left’s love of abortion, forgive me for being skeptical that Obamacare is going to place any sort of emphasis on sick or premature infants. It’s just going to be deemed a really late term abortion. Some socialized medicine nations deny care to preemies and consider them “stillborn.” All hail the glories of government health care.

Maybe they paid for it the way people used to: by working hard, sacrificing, and taking responsibility for themselves. Not by relying on the government all the time for everything. I know those are dirty words to liberals, but this nation was made great on the backs of individuals who weren’t, frankly, such wusses.

This will blow up in your face. I hope I’m there to see it.

englishqueen01 on November 22, 2009 at 5:26 PM

“Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force”
- Thomas Jefferson

Oopsdaisy on November 22, 2009 at 5:31 PM

Heh, I have family in Arkansas too. Will see how this pans out with them, giving them a call. As far as me, I am toast; I am in PA.

ProudPalinFan on November 22, 2009 at 8:38 AM

Small world: I was born and raised in PA — the Lehigh Valley. Did you get to go to Gov. Palin’s book signing in Washington yesterday? I will definitely be seeing her in Fayetteville when she comes through. And now that ol’ Blanche has shot herself in the political foot I’m thinking we might be lucky enough to get Cuda here to campaign for her opponent next year. There’s an upside to everything. ;o)

NoLeftTurn on November 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM

I’m always delighted to see that the other side is as bitter and as ignorant as I suspected. My wish for you, is that in a moment of crisis — say, someone you love has been laid off or is trying to get a job with a pre-existing condition — that they have the coverage they need to get the care they need.

I feel that you must be very unhappy to wish evil on others.

How was church?

Bleeds Blue on November 22, 2009 at 12:15 PM

What exactly are we “ignorant” of, here? Anyone with half a brain knows that those who are currently insured are going to pay more and get less. That’s not “ignorance”, that’s knowledge of the real, as opposed to imagined, impact of the bill the Left wants passed.

As for “bitter”, I would say it’s not “bitter” to realize that the things you have worked for and want for yourself are being taken away by others who think they can better spend the fruits of your labor for their aggrandizement. I don’t know or care if there is anything in your life that you’ve worked hard for (I suspect not, but that’s not something I can prove), but imagine if some anonymous bureaucrat started taking it away from you and giving it to someone deemed more worthy of it. You’d probably be pretty “bitter”, too. Of course, that would require there be something in your life that you’re actually beyond mediocrity in, which is pure fantasy, I’m sure.

Wishing evil on you makes me happy, actually. That’s above and beyond my pre-existing happiness at not being a loser whom the government needs to subsidize.

Nice to think that in the richest country on earth you can get to a doctor when you need to.

Bleeds Blue on November 22, 2009 at 1:54 PM

It’s not going to be the richest country on earth for long with you assh*les in charge, that’s for sure.

Was talking to someone yesterday whose kid is recovering from open heart surgery at three months. Not sure how they paid for it, he’s a farmer so he’s in a tough position, and I though, “jeez,maybe the pre-existing condition from birth won’t make this kid uninsurable or unemployable for the next sixty years, now.”

Great, more “policy by anecdote” from the Left. Tell it to Oprah, because I frankly don’t give a f*ck. It’s not my kid. No, what’ll make the kid unemployable is the destruction of the private sector economy the Left is foisting on the country. No employer is ever going to make a decision on hiring or not hiring someone based on whether or not they had heart surgery at three months, moron.

venividivici on November 22, 2009 at 6:09 PM

Bravo, venividivici. Well said.

JDPerren on November 22, 2009 at 6:27 PM

Yes Reid was forced, forced by Landrieu to pay $200 million to get one vote

In a society in which legislators must obey the law – a dim memory in the case of the United States, I’m sorry to say – this would be considered a criminal conspiracy to defraud the taxpayers. Today, it’s considered smart politics.

JDPerren on November 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM

The great thing about this bill is it provides even more motivation to not work, earn too much, or do much of anything.

Why should I? To see half our income go to taxes, but then be told our gross income is “too much” to warrant subsidies on the $15,000/year insurance policy (or $500/month electric bill) the Obama administration seems hellbent on making us pay.

I’d much rather stay at home and raise my two children, than go to work so someone who believes my wealth is theirs can take it.

englishqueen01 on November 22, 2009 at 6:59 PM

The great thing about this bill is it provides even more motivation to not work, earn too much, or do much of anything.
Why should I? To see half our income go to taxes, but then be told our gross income is “too much” to warrant subsidies on the $15,000/year insurance policy (or $500/month electric bill) the Obama administration seems hellbent on making us pay.

I’d much rather stay at home and raise my two children, than go to work so someone who believes my wealth is theirs can take it.

englishqueen01 on November 22, 2009 at 6:59 PM

AMEN!!! I predict there to be many cash jobs cropping up in the near future.

LSUMama on November 22, 2009 at 7:19 PM

AMEN!!! I predict there to be many cash jobs cropping up in the near future.

Yes.

They won’t listen to us, the next step is to STARVE THE BEAST. When tax revenues plummet, who’ll fund Obamacare?

The Chicoms?

The good thing about this is the Democrats have lifted the veil. They’ve revealed their true colors and pretty much guaranteed they’ll never hold office higher than dog catcher ever again.

Now that’s something to be thankful for this week!

englishqueen01 on November 22, 2009 at 7:54 PM

I received this from a commenter on my blog. Why Sen. Voinovich wasn’t there: Bad bill. No vote.

englishqueen01 on November 22, 2009 at 9:04 PM

The good thing about this is the Democrats have lifted the veil. They’ve revealed their true colors and pretty much guaranteed they’ll never hold office higher than dog catcher ever again.

You’re forgetting one thing. Americans have amnesia when it comes to elections.

Hammie on November 22, 2009 at 11:40 PM

My Catholic Church took a hard stance against supporting Obama without ever saying his name. We had many sermons that told us that we could not call ourselves Catholics if we voted for the candidate that was supporting abortion. Of course I live in Texas so maybe it’s different in other states.

redridinghood on November 21, 2009 at 10:40 PM

You’re catholic church supported molesting children for years, burning protestants alive, the inquisition, etc. It is and has always been one big corrupt power/money grubbing blasphemy of Christianity.

TTheoLogan on November 22, 2009 at 11:52 PM

Get your hands off my Health Care you damn dirty Ape!!

…ok, I know SOMEONE must have said it first, but I can’t look back 13 pages for it.

DrAllecon on November 23, 2009 at 12:48 AM

http://www.veteranoutrage.com

This whole bullshit so called legislative act.
Really a communist takeover is so evil and vile
it sickens me..

I called my so called democrat representative..
Got some useless guy on the phone
and you could tell he wasnt going to tell my
so called communist representative anything i said.

Not unless i had a pile of money
or was some pot smoking liberal wak job..

So I will not obey
I dont care now..
screw all the god damed liberals..

I refuse

I call it

Patriotic Dissent..

screw obama
screw pelosi
screw the democrats
and absolutly crucify anone who votes for this piece of shit..
I mean get rid of them at all costs..

For you violated the whole tenante of the us constitution

you know that little pesky piece of paper that describes our representative republic???

veteranoutrage on November 23, 2009 at 8:25 AM

You’re catholic church supported molesting children for years, burning protestants alive, the inquisition, etc. It is and has always been one big corrupt power/money grubbing blasphemy of Christianity.

What a load of hysterical hooey. 1. We did not support the molestation of boys. The priests who did and the bishops who covered for them represent a minute percentage of the Catholic Church. Catholics like me are outraged at it. It would also behoove you to know those who abused were rather, ahem, liberal: pro-women’s ordination, pro-gay marriage, pro-abortion. In other words they weren’t Catholic and we’re making damn sure the likes of them don’t receive ordination in the future.

The Inquisition and the Spanish Inquisition are two different things. The Catholic Church actually told Spain to back off and they didn’t listen; many people preferred to be tried under the Vatican’s inquisition because it was much more fair and lenient than the Spanish one (which wasn’t authorized, and was in fact denounced, by the Catholic Church).

How old is the oldest Protestant denomination? Any of them come close to 2,000 years? Catholicism predates all of those denominations.

You’re forgetting one thing. Americans have amnesia when it comes to elections.

In some things. When they’re jobless and unemployed and it takes them years to recover they’re less likely to forget. You also don’t forget when your government gives you the collective finger and votes on legislation that has sinking support.

englishqueen01 on November 23, 2009 at 8:35 AM

those who abused weren’t Catholic
englishqueen01 on November 23, 2009 at 8:35 AM

What were they – Protestant?

We did not support the molestation of boys. The priests who did and the bishops who covered for them
englishqueen01 on November 23, 2009 at 8:35 AM

He didn’t say “you” – He said “your church.” – They supported by covering up this heinous, despicable atrocity for decades.”

The Inquisition and the Spanish Inquisition are two different things.
englishqueen01 on November 23, 2009 at 8:35 AM

Torture was used after 1252. On May 15, Pope Innocent IV issued a papal bull entitled Ad exstirpanda, which authorized the use of torture by inquisitors.
People were tortured by getting hung by their wrists, and have weights hung from their ankles – Other forms of “punishment” were: confiscation of property, long-term imprisonment – and, burning at the stake for the most serious cases (of what?)

How old is the oldest Protestant denomination? Any of them come close to 2,000 years? Catholicism predates all of those denominations.
englishqueen01 on November 23, 2009 at 8:35 AM

Gee, Islam predates Protestants also – so what is your point?

Anyway, think maybe the Inquisitions might have had some affect?

Look – attacking each other’s religions serves no purpose. I only entered this to show that Catholicism hasn’t been real consistent over the centuries – and in many cases had their wet fingers in the air to see which way the wind was blowing – instead of being adamantly Christ Like – which is supposed to be their mission – always.

The Catholic Church has done tremendous good – no doubt about that. But it is responsible for much harm too. It is its inconsistencies on following their mandate that has always brought it harm and derision – never the good it has done.

Catholics need to demand that their Church always uphold and reflect the teachings of Christ – and not make rules for one class of people over another – which has to sadden our Lord to no end.

To end – I am truly glad to see the Catholic Church taking a hard stand against those of their congregation who do not reflect what their teachings. You are either Catholic – or you are not. You cannot walk into Church and profess your beliefs in you faith – and walk out and hypocritically leave those beliefs at the door. Those people need to find another faith.

Oopsdaisy on November 23, 2009 at 4:24 PM

venividivici on November 22, 2009 at 6:09 PM

Does anyone else get the feeling that when venividivici isn’t posting his half-baked screeds here, he’s shouting them at passing cars?

crr6 on November 24, 2009 at 2:04 AM

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