WaPo/ABC poll: The 14-point partisan gap
posted at 9:30 am on November 17, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
After a while, it gets to be a broken record, but we still have to ask: does anyone know how to poll out there? Despite every indication that the partisan split among Americans has narrowed considerably since the last Presidential election, won by the Democrat by seven points while garnering considerable independent and Republican cross-over votes, the new Washington Post/ABC poll uses a sample in which Democrats outnumber Republicans by fourteen points. Moreover, the WaPo/ABC poll has progressively widened that gap over the last four monthly polls:
- 11/15/09: 35/21/39 (D/R/I)
- 10/18/09: 33/20/42
- 9/12/09: 32/21/43
- 8/17/09: 35/25/34
Let’s have a reality check here. In the last four months, which party would have lost ~20% of its representation in the polls and had them shift to the independent column? With both Gallup and Rasmussen showing the Democrats losing the generic Congressional ballot for the first time in several years, it’s not the Republicans losing voters. And yet the Post and ABC conduct their public-opinion polls based on samples that not only wildly oversample Democrats but show the opposite trend of partisan identification.
Even while increasing the sample to the point of farce, Barack Obama and Democratic policies lost ground in this poll:
- Approval on health care: 47/49, was 48/48 in October
- Approval on deficit: 42/53, was 45/51 in October
- Approval on the economy: 51/47, was 50/48
- Support ObamaCare: 48/49, was 45/48
- Public option: Up 10 (53/43), was up 17 in October (57/40)
Maybe WaPo/ABC should use a 25-point gap the next time between Democrats and Republicans. That way they can get the results they want on the issues.
Blowback
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After a while, it gets to be a broken record, but we still have to ask: does anyone know how to poll out there?
….
Why do you think they don’t know how to poll?
That’s different from agenda polling.
artist on November 17, 2009 at 9:34 AM
Disinformation campaign
Starlink on November 17, 2009 at 9:34 AM
I wonder what the % is on those Palin not quailified polls….
unseen on November 17, 2009 at 9:34 AM
Pravda would be so proud….
unseen on November 17, 2009 at 9:35 AM
* 11/15/09: 35/21/39 (D/R/I)
* 10/18/09: 33/20/42
* 9/12/09: 32/21/43
* 8/17/09: 35/25/34
….
Nice!
HAHAHA!
artist on November 17, 2009 at 9:35 AM
I love playing make believe. Why not just do internal dem polls?
abobo on November 17, 2009 at 9:35 AM
Pravda.
LibTired on November 17, 2009 at 9:36 AM
It makes you wonder how bad the numbers really are when an accurate sample is used. Oh wait, that what Rasmussen’s for.
Doughboy on November 17, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Fox should hammer this every night until ABC corrects the poll.
Hammer away at the credibility of ABC News as a legitimate news organization using fraudulent polling
faraway on November 17, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Look …they are going to rig the game anyway they can for obama….. they need to have monogrammed on their kneepads ….I blow the O and be done with it
Aggie95 on November 17, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Come on, Ed. Don\’t you know?It\’s because the only people the WaPo/ABC pollers know are Democrats.Jeez.
Greg Toombs on November 17, 2009 at 9:37 AM
After a while, it gets to be a broken record, but we still have to ask: does anyone know how to poll out there?
========================================================
Yes!
Get Bill Clinton to moisten his finger,have it thrusted
into the prevailing winds,and after ascertaining the winds
of change,voila,you`ll have your polling results!!
(Sarc)
canopfor on November 17, 2009 at 9:37 AM
I’m sure they think they’re being very generous, because in their own experience they don’t meet many Republicans, and have a hard time believing they exist in any significant number.
RBMN on November 17, 2009 at 9:38 AM
The answer is yes…now if you would have said an honest or unbiased poll the answer is no.
Even you can’t ask the correct question.
The poll is designed to receive the answer they want…so they yes they know how to effectively poll for what they want.
right2bright on November 17, 2009 at 9:38 AM
WH: “these are the polls we’ve been looking for”
BobMbx on November 17, 2009 at 9:38 AM
When a child catches another child doing something like this, it’s called cheating.
When an adult does it it’s called being a Democrat.
Mark Boabaca on November 17, 2009 at 9:40 AM
Lies, damn lies and statistics…
Caper29 on November 17, 2009 at 9:40 AM
The truth is, WaPo only polls the office there in Arlington. Just walks around with a clipboard. And naturally as more of them get let go, the Republicans had to go first.
LastRick on November 17, 2009 at 9:40 AM
The way polls are done,its very similar to a
Kubuki Stripper pole dance!!(snark).
There all over the place,but never accurate!
canopfor on November 17, 2009 at 9:41 AM
ABC and WaPo have sent a team to Venezuela to learn how Chavez consistently gets 100% approval in polls.
darwin on November 17, 2009 at 9:41 AM
Thanks but no thanks this and most polls are not fit to even read.If i need to look at a poll i will just go to Rasmussen polls.
thmcbb on November 17, 2009 at 9:41 AM
Trolls show up to proclaim that only losers complain about how a poll was conducted in … 3 . 2 . 1
MarkTheGreat on November 17, 2009 at 9:42 AM
If the country was Dem +14, they would have won VA and NJ..EASILY.
I’d like to see Fox do a R +14 poll.
lol
artist on November 17, 2009 at 9:42 AM
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.
EnglishMike on November 17, 2009 at 9:42 AM
Ed, I keep saying it. All the polls are rigged, some how some way. But this just illustrates my point. We are actually a center right country, so an actual poll would sample more conservatives than democrats, by maybe five points.
dogsoldier on November 17, 2009 at 9:43 AM
Just another example of liberals substituting their own perceptions in place of reality, acting on those (incorrect) perceptions, and being surprised when they fail miserably. Then they conclude that they “didn’t do enough” and ramp up their failed policies.
We used to call that sort of thing “insanity”.
Rusty Bill on November 17, 2009 at 9:43 AM
John Stossel should do a one hour expose on this.
faraway on November 17, 2009 at 9:44 AM
There’s that relative thing again that the Libs are so adept at. Relative morality, Relative ethics, relative truth.
kingsjester on November 17, 2009 at 9:45 AM
Why poll in this manner at all?
Why not poll using the labels conservative (40%), liberal 20%, and independent (40%)?
BuckeyeSam on November 17, 2009 at 9:45 AM
Push polling.
Intended to generate favorable headlines for the WaPo’s boyfriend in the White House.
Denial is strong in the Beltway. Change is coming.
Good Lt on November 17, 2009 at 9:46 AM
If the country was Dem +14, they would have won VA and NJ..EASILY.
I’d like to see Fox do a R +14 poll.
lol
artist on November 17, 2009 at 9:42 AM
but that really is the only answer to stop this. If media like Fox starts doing the same thing but with GOP as the winners then the media will either have to call them on it and in the process show they are doing the same thing or remain quiet. This is what the GOP has failed to grasp. they want people to follow the rules because they follow the rules. they have forgotten that the only reason people follow rules is if there are negative consequences for not following the rules. Gop needs to play hardball.
unseen on November 17, 2009 at 9:46 AM
Lies, damn lies and
statisticsliberal-media polling…Caper29 on November 17, 2009 at 9:40 AM
Another version.
BuckeyeSam on November 17, 2009 at 9:47 AM
These people must not have any conscience at all.It’s unbelieveable,because you know they know the dems. are in trouble and yet they really believe America will believe anything they say!Well….here’s to hoping that Americans will not listen to their hogwash and the media stay asleep.
ohiobabe on November 17, 2009 at 9:48 AM
Torture numbers long enough and they’ll confess to anything.
Patrick S on November 17, 2009 at 9:48 AM
Why should we complain. Let the Democrats persist in their delusions until the only poll that matters hits them in the face. Besides, honest polling would reduce our trolls to nothingness and we would lose a valuable comedic resouce.
jerryofva on November 17, 2009 at 9:48 AM
Our media isn’t biased. It’s lying.
Bugler on November 17, 2009 at 9:49 AM
ABC and The Washington Post are nothing more than the propaganda arm of the Obama regime. Their polls are predetermined and they are designed to influence not inform. Anyone can conduct a poll and achieve whatever results they desire. These polls are mathematical garbage and will continue as long as Obama needs them. This polling can be equated to Pravada conducting polls to evaluate Stalin’s performance.
rplat on November 17, 2009 at 9:49 AM
I didn’t know Bawney Fwank was pwesident.
Mark Boabaca on November 17, 2009 at 9:50 AM
“This just in…
…Our recent poll suggests that Obama supporters, support Obama…”
tommylotto on November 17, 2009 at 9:50 AM
5 Democrats for every 3 Republicans surveyed?
That’s a lot more than a 14% gap there.
Bruce in NH on November 17, 2009 at 9:51 AM
..Ed, Ed, Ed..
Again, it’s the echo chamber. I hope these idiots oversample by any means necessary so that the numbers look good for the Democrats. The sound of snoring next November will be music to our ears as they get flushed down the toilet.
VoyskaPVO on November 17, 2009 at 9:51 AM
The memos are flying at the Propaganda Dept run by Rahm and Axelhead.
bluegrass on November 17, 2009 at 9:51 AM
But, But, But…..Ed, you’re bursting Allahpundits anti-Palin polling bubble! (Try saying that three times very fast!)
BillyGoatGruff on November 17, 2009 at 9:52 AM
Polling is done to generate news stories and thus shape public opinion,
BTW, this new WP/ABC poll is chump change compared to one earlier this year from al-AP…they sampled twice as many Democrats as Republicans.
Dr. Goebbels is looking up and smiling with approval.
Del Dolemonte on November 17, 2009 at 9:54 AM
Because these polls are designed to push the agenda and give politicians cover so that they can vote for crap sandwich legislation. However, as the actual election approaches, these pollsters will miraculously rediscover party affiliation and how to poll right, so that their final poll will vaguely resembles the election outcome.
tommylotto on November 17, 2009 at 9:55 AM
Thank you Ed for continuing to expose this fraudulent activity. We need to pound this like a drum. This is how those “stolen election” memes take root. When real elections don’t conform to the expected results signaled by these goofy polls then the Dems start screaming the election was stolen. Then they use it to discredit the winner.
Metanis on November 17, 2009 at 9:56 AM
Must be polling in DC. Can’t find any Pubs there except a few in congress and they go 60/40 RINO.
donh525 on November 17, 2009 at 9:56 AM
Bagdag Bob polling. All is well!
Makes what will happen next year all the better.
Maybe they can dig up Peter Jennings next November for a comment.
jjshaka on November 17, 2009 at 9:57 AM
I know what you were getting at, but the thought of the Clenis moistening anything is really gross.
crazy_legs on November 17, 2009 at 9:59 AM
Do they respond to questions about their methods? It just seems so blatant and odd.
CWforFreedom on November 17, 2009 at 9:59 AM
I defer to Ed’s infinitely superior knowledge of the electorate and politics in general. Except … I see it the way this poll shows it. Follow me:
Even now — especially now — that the recent spate of elections is over, we see that conservatives maybe more than ever are disgusted with the national GOP and are declaring themselves to be conservatives and not necessarily Republicans. See: Hoffman, Rubio, RNC, RSCC.
Democrats, on the other hand, are (in my opinion) more partisan, stupider, and more likely to entrench for their coalition of the stupid/liberal and the various anti-American, anti-conservative, communist, socialist and anarchist groups. Their numbers aren’t going to go down, but they consist of 35% of the electorate, total.
What we have seen is an implosion of support for O’Baama and the Dems from independents, which I suggest increasingly consists of profoundly conservative voters.
I have no doubt that a WaPo/ABC News poll is not just flawed, but fundamentally dishonest and agenda driven. But these numbers don’t necessarily tell me that.
Jaibones on November 17, 2009 at 10:00 AM
They do the polling during the day. That way only supporters of bowbama are home. The rest of us are WORKING!
faol on November 17, 2009 at 10:01 AM
Maybe someone should do an expose dealing with the quality of polling versus the propinquity of elections. Frank Lunz, where are you?
BillyGoatGruff on November 17, 2009 at 10:01 AM
Even with the skewed sample, it’s still 3/1 of who think their health coverage will get worse if commie care passes. I don’t think they asked about actual health treatment, which wold probably be more like 4/1 who say it will bet worse.
forest on November 17, 2009 at 10:01 AM
Joe Biden has two words for this: Narrative.
Kafir on November 17, 2009 at 10:02 AM
And now Old Europe, as witness this piece in Der Spiegel, is reacting to Obama like someone who’s just discovered her lover is cheating on her:
.
Mmmmmm Mmmmmm Mmmmmm…
Drained Brain on November 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM
It’s a tactic they used very successfully during the Dem primaries. They skew the polls and by the time the election rolls by, the polls have shifted a significant portion of the population’s minds. It usually isn’t enough by itself, but any advantage they can get helps. During the GE, they tried it as well, but all the polls ended up being all over the place.
MrX on November 17, 2009 at 10:05 AM
They could also stop asking conservatives to take part in polls – and just add a footnote that racist “teabagging” extremist nazi’s weren’t included.
gwelf on November 17, 2009 at 10:05 AM
Newspapers and their polls have become nothing but propaganda …
tarpon on November 17, 2009 at 10:06 AM
If education is good, re-education is better….PAP (President-Approved-Media)
Christian Conservative on November 17, 2009 at 10:08 AM
Folks, this is a good thing. It’s willful blindness. The less they’re aware of this train coming down the tracks the better. They’ll never know what hit ‘em.
Bat Chain Puller on November 17, 2009 at 10:08 AM
Well no surprise there. After all, this is the ‘new’ way to conduct ‘scientific’ investigations.
Manipulate to extrapolate.
Please, can we have some real science education in our schools & colleges?
Badger40 on November 17, 2009 at 10:08 AM
So would Stalin, Lenin, & probably even Hitler.
Badger40 on November 17, 2009 at 10:09 AM
communist bastards.
Griz on November 17, 2009 at 10:11 AM
they are trying to influence people with misleading polls, people like to be part of a majority.
jp on November 17, 2009 at 10:11 AM
FIFY
katablog.com on November 17, 2009 at 10:12 AM
v Pravde net izvestiy, v Izvestiyakh net pravdy
(In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth)
Just fill in the appropriate names from today’s so-called “mainstream media”.
Rusty Bill on November 17, 2009 at 10:13 AM
I agree. I love that guy.
I use his free dvds that are offered to teachers in my science classes.
Spurs a lot of discussions about fact vs propaganda.
Badger40 on November 17, 2009 at 10:14 AM
you have to add 10 points minimum to the conservative side on every single poll out there.
Even Rasmussen, which isn’t TRYING to slant the poll is low on the conservative side because there is a large percentage of people who simply won’t go against Obama because they are afraid of being called a racist.
If the election was held today, it would be a Republican landslide, even if Mickey Mouse was the Republican candidate.
notagool on November 17, 2009 at 10:15 AM
Rasmussen has Palin with a 51% favorable rating among likely voters. The tide is turning.
CWforFreedom on November 17, 2009 at 10:18 AM
We’re 350 days from the next general election, so other than the primary polling, there’s no mechanism between now and then to corroborate any poll results. So samples can be rigged to make positions look better or worse without fear of being exposed by having the voters pull a “Dewey Defeats Truman” embarrassment on the polling companies.
The problem for the people running the poll is they somehow think that making Obamacare® look more popular than it is is somehow going to convince voters to support it. But the voters aren’t the ones who are going to decide this, the Senate and House are. And the Blue Dogs there can read poll samples just as well as anyone else. They’re not going to walk off a cliff if they’re running for re-election in 2010 just because the WaPo/ABC poll supposedly tells them it’s safe, especially if the calls and e-mails to their offices are telling them something else. So other than the fact that the people commissioning the poll don’t want to report Obamacare® is a steaming pile of dung, it’s hard to see what they’re expecting to get out of this.
jon1979 on November 17, 2009 at 10:21 AM
Integrity? We don need no stink’n integrity.
Speakup on November 17, 2009 at 10:32 AM
Dear Ed,
I’d say our country has been polled pretty well by Obama’s policies.
Dr. Charles G. Waugh on November 17, 2009 at 10:33 AM
I don’t care. I’ll still buy crap that is advertised on ABC.
After all, when I need stuff, where better to look than the advertisers who advertise on ABC?
I feel it is my patriotic duty to buy crap that is advertised on ABC because I feel ABC shares my values as a human being.
jeff_from_mpls on November 17, 2009 at 10:33 AM
Well if one was trying to support an already drawn conclustion, the polls have to be biased in that direction, don’t they?
docdave on November 17, 2009 at 10:34 AM
These polls might have more meaning if instead of classifying people by party, they categorized them by philosphy. Demorcrats project on others that part means more than ideas, I doubt this is the case for 2/3 of America.
WashJeff on November 17, 2009 at 10:37 AM
Those weren’t oversampled Democrats.
H*ll no, those were zombies.
Sir Napsalot on November 17, 2009 at 10:37 AM
You’re right, they’ll keep increasing the gap until they get the numbers they want. Then watch out for the mind-boggling headlines.
GarandFan on November 17, 2009 at 10:41 AM
It’s the only way the polls can fit the agendas of the left-wing media.
Ricohoc on November 17, 2009 at 10:43 AM
not msm, but DIM:
disinformation media.
reliapundit on November 17, 2009 at 10:44 AM
Waiting for John Stewart to point out ABC’s “editing” of the poll.
shick on November 17, 2009 at 10:47 AM
To be fair, a good number of conservatives do not identify themselves as “Republican” nor do they feel that the Republican Party represents them well (see: NY-23).
So I can believe that a fair poll would have more self-identified Democrats than Republicans, although 14-point gap is stretching the imagination a little too much.
Maybe polls should be asking whether the person considers himself “liberal” or “conservative”, either instead of or in addition to party identification.
novakyu on November 17, 2009 at 10:47 AM
I wonder if question was ever asked during the 8 years of the Bush administration?
9. Do you think leaders of the Republican Party are mainly (presenting alternatives to Obama’s proposals), or mainly (criticizing Obama’s proposals without presenting alternatives)?
Marconi on November 17, 2009 at 10:50 AM
How to run a poll:
Pick 1000 phone numbers at random. Call numbers. Ask question. Publish results.
Why the need for all the guess work as to how many Dems or Reps may or many not maybe think of voting?
angryed on November 17, 2009 at 10:52 AM
You too, boys and girls, for a mere $54,000 per year, can get the Columbia University J-School education that it takes, to lap up polling such as this.
MNHawk on November 17, 2009 at 10:53 AM
Ed,
Allahpundit uses ABC/Washpost polls frequently in his Palin posts. Are you suggesting that these polls might me skewed?????
Impossible. /s
portlandon on November 17, 2009 at 11:16 AM
Seems like there is a real assumption that ABC/WAPO actually conducts a poll. With such blatant biases left in the report, how much is being left out?
Is it possible to even quote their poll as being better than someone calling their friends and asking them what they think?
Freddy on November 17, 2009 at 11:17 AM
Their polls are valid; HotAir whining is not.
Democrats now outnumber Republicans by 17 points.
Reason: Democrats stayed Democrats. Anti-abortion Democrats remain Democrats to this very day, even though 75% of Democrat leadership promotes abortion rights.
On the other hand, former Republicans, like myself, LEFT the Republican Party because the Republican Party has repeatedly and consistently betrayed conservative values. I do not associate with any political party, and I no longer donate any money to the Republican Party.
There is nothing the Republican Party can do at this point that will EVER win me back. There are too many McCains, too many Grahams, too many RINOs.
jay12 on November 17, 2009 at 11:19 AM
Or maybe they can just make stuff up.
The reality is that while we are still a two-party system but the electorate is more nuanced. I certainly would not respond the same way as a McCain supporter or a certain atheist blogger but when your three choices are D, R, or I there isn’t a whole lot of room for differentiation.
highhopes on November 17, 2009 at 11:28 AM
So, we’ll see a 58-60/40-42 vote favoring the Democrats in 2010… because 17 points is really really real?
Would you care to phrase this claim in the form of a wager?
gekkobear on November 17, 2009 at 11:50 AM
Republicans have done NOTHING to improve their image. Democrats are unchecked and being held hostage by their base.
In the either/or politics of our two party system, Republicans are poised to gain, however, the national party has done anything to improve the image of Republicans. The best advertisement for Republicans is Democrats, and vice versa.
Republicans and social conservatives in general need to make peace with libertarians and turn the death rays on the collectivists. Specifically, take abortion and gay marriage off the table by making it part of the platform that opposition to abortion/gay marriage is based on the position that authority for abortion and gay marriage cannot be found within our nation’s founding documents. Leave it to the states to pass referenda on these issues, but keep the federal government out of it. Debate these issues in the public square, not in the courts and the social conservative/libertarian rift can be reconciled.
On other issues such as the proper role of government, social conservatives and libertarians are united behind the concept of limited government.
Republicans need to view independents as small government libertarians, not as social moderates. A principled distinction whereby the party says the federal government is not authorized to sanction either abortion or same sex marriage and Republicans can once again be a party of bold color contrasted with the pastel bunch we have today.
Reconcile our differences on social issues, and perhaps social conservatives and libertarians can unite behind the Republican party. Otherwise, Republicans are only gaining voters by default.
Sorry for the long post. I feel better now. : ))
Angry Dumbo on November 17, 2009 at 11:52 AM
Allah needs to read this one, Ed.
Because Allah sure luvs him some ABC-WaPo polls:
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/16/politics-daily-how-palin-could-win-the-2012-nomination/comment-page-1/#comments
Allah is making the same error so many of the “social and political elites” make regarding Palin and the growing grass-roots contempt for those same social and political elites. I suspect Allah does so out of the same purblind perspective.
From Michelle’s piece yesterday on Stanford alum’s reaction to the Valerie Jarret puff-piece in their organization’s magazine:
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/11/15/stanford-alumni-blow-the-whistle-on-valerie-jarrett/
Mr. Holzmann’s mentor’s observation provides the key to the reason many support Palin, despite her lack of an Ivy-League education or a national political pedigree. (And don’t even start on “lack of experience” when she has far more practical experience than the gaffe-prone narcissistic neophyte in the WH.) She has character and principles and common sense that people recognize and respect, and it exactly her decency, honesty and principles to which average Americans all across the country can relate. These people see all around them friends and neighbors who have faced life’s challenges and risen to the occasion precisely because they have character and principles, and they recognize that without them it matters not how much education and sophistication an inherently selfish, greedy and corrupt politician possesses.
Palin’s track record in Alaska establishes her among them as someone who “gets it” when it comes to the problems that infest our government as run by the “social and political elites”. Palin has precisely the tools she needs, and so many of the political and social elites absolutely lack.
Even if you start out with a good idea, by the time it is filtered through the fecal characters of the “social and political elites”, the end results stink.
Many (most?) folks in flyover country understand this problem. The “social and political elites” realize that their political hegemony is at risk of being deposed, and they are terrified. Their attacks on Palin, who serves symbolically as the point guard for the folks fed up with politics as usual, are founded in that fear. Unwilling or congenitally unable to confront their fears and their shortcomings honestly because the shame would be unbearable, they unite around a common enemy and attack the icon of the looming comeuppance that can’t be ignored, even as they attempt to convince themselves that Palin and her supporters are the problem, not them.
vinman has a point. The enemies of the corrupt, self-serving and self-important “cultural and political elites” are our enemies. Time for Allah and those members of the “social and political elites” who retain a shred of decency and common sense to do some serious soul-searching regarding their apparent incapacity to understand the Palin phenomena. The results could be enlightening.
novaculus on November 17, 2009 at 11:56 AM
A wager? I forgave Manly Rash the Ruth’s Chris I won from him over the last presidential election because he was short on funds at the time. If I can’t collect from a supremely honorable soul such as Manly, then a wager on here would be pointless.
jay12 on November 17, 2009 at 11:56 AM
And besides, any Republican Party victory can be directly and solely attributed to how bad the opposition sucks, and NEVER to anything positive that the Republican Party has to offer.
jay12 on November 17, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Where were all those Democrats when a Republican was elected Governor of NEW JERSEY, of all places?
Only 21% of Republicans in the electorate? Surely they jest! Even exit polls in 2008 had over 30% Republicans!
Put another 10% Republicans into that sample, and take out as many indies, and watch his numbers on the economy go negative. Which is what WaPo and ABC don’t want us to know.
Steve Z on November 17, 2009 at 12:06 PM
In other news, an ABC Poll of people who like the color Blue showed that all people overwhelmingly prefer the color Blue.
Amazing!
PaddyJ on November 17, 2009 at 12:15 PM
Obviously, the Democrats are still there. Their candidate sucked so bad that he didn’t get enough votes, plain and simple.
But try not to delude yourself into believing that Christie won because he’s a great conservative values leader.
jay12 on November 17, 2009 at 12:18 PM
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