US to seize mosques, skyscraper tied to Iran
posted at 9:30 am on November 13, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
The US has long barred Iran from conducting any business in this country, ever since the sacking of our embassy in Tehran and kidnapping of its personnel for 444 days. However, the US suspects that Iran has used a front company, Alavi, to acquire hundreds of millions in assets in the US, including a New York City skyscraper and four mosques. The federal government has filed to seize these assets, which appears to indicate that the outstretched hand will contain … a subpoena:
In what could be one of the biggest counterterrorism seizures in U.S. history, federal prosecutors sought to take over four U.S. mosques and a New York City skyscraper owned by a Muslim organization suspected of being controlled by the Iranian government.
Prosecutors on Thursday filed a civil complaint in federal court against the Alavi Foundation, seeking the forfeiture of more than $500 million in assets.
The assets include bank accounts; Islamic centers consisting of schools and mosques in New York, Maryland, California and Houston; more than 100 acres in Virginia; and a 36-story Manhattan office tower. Confiscating the properties would be a sharp blow against Iran, which the U.S. government has accused of bankrolling terrorism and trying to build a nuclear bomb.
The assets are run by the Alavi Foundation, which Michelle notes has another interesting mission — it sends Korans to prison inmates, which seems a little incongruous for a simple property management company. There’s nothing illegal about that, but there is something illegal with sending millions of dollars in rental income to Iran through a front company, Assa Corporation, to Iran’s Bank of Melli. The US considers Melli to be a part of Iran’s financing for its nuclear program and it has long been illegal to do any business with Melli.
The US has not physically seized the assets yet, and the feds can expect a fight. The skyscraper will not cause nearly as much controversy as the seizure of the mosques, and the courts will want a clear reason to allow places of worship to be seized. As the AP notes, that action may well be seen by a court as an unconstitutional breach of the First Amendment. The protection of religion in the US is not absolute, of course; if a place of worship acts as a criminal enterprise, law enforcement agencies have the duty to arrest those responsible and put an end to any criminal activity. If Iran funds these mosques in violation of federal law, then the US has the jurisdiction to seize them. But they had better have an airtight case if they expect a judge to sign off on the seizure.
The timing is interesting. Obama has made quite a show of offering an “outstretched hand” to Iran in order to get them into talks to normalize relations and end their nuclear-weapons program. Obama won a Nobel Prize for his talk, but no concessions from Iran. In fact, they have made it clear this week that they have no intention of following through even on the weak concessions they made on storing enriched uranium. The sudden and surprising news of these seizures may be more of an outstretched finger than a hand as a response to their reversal on the IAEA agreement.
Blowback
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subhan allah
blatantblue on November 13, 2009 at 9:32 AM
You build nook-ya-ler weapons, we seize your nondescript office building. Booyah! Ogabe knows how to play hard ball too.
Bishop on November 13, 2009 at 9:33 AM
Great! Now the government is in the muslim business as well!
Caper29 on November 13, 2009 at 9:33 AM
Plenty of time for the jihadists to remove/destroy the evidence. WTG DoJ! Go team!
Another Obama smoke and mirrors play.
Fletch54 on November 13, 2009 at 9:35 AM
they seized 100a in Virginia. does anyone know where this is?
kelley in virginia on November 13, 2009 at 9:36 AM
The Alavi Foundation also donated about $80,000 to the William J. Clinton Foundation between 2006 and 2008.
amerpundit on November 13, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Any Imam’s preaching Jihad at any of those mosques?
Skandia Recluse on November 13, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Interesting fact for the Houston seizure:
After the Iranian elections in which the Iranian government had crakced down on protesters, the seized mosque was the site of a pro-Iranian vigil. Now, the same mosque has been outed as supporting terrorism.
Eggs on faces today. Eggs of faces.
madmonkphotog on November 13, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Freedom of religion, not freedom to plot the murders of Americans.
Can’t wait for lefty heads to explode…
SouthernGent on November 13, 2009 at 9:36 AM
When do the cries of “Blowback” begin?
catmman on November 13, 2009 at 9:37 AM
are we jumping to conclusions on these seizures?
ted c on November 13, 2009 at 9:37 AM
I’m wondering what the real motive is here. It’s not like the smoking gun appeared on Wednesday and they seized the assets on a Thursday. There had to be some time where the administration knew exactly what was going on. Why now? What message is the filthy lying coward trying to send?
highhopes on November 13, 2009 at 9:38 AM
Perhaps Barry wants to sweep them and do some tidying up before he returns them with big barrels of cash inside.
I’m not taking that ^^ back.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 9:38 AM
Big deal.
sheriff246 on November 13, 2009 at 9:38 AM
“Smart powe”–kinda like grabbing your crotch and giving the finger…The little twerp (I mean Osh*thead)thinks he is a ptbull, when he’s really a poodle…
lovingmyUSA on November 13, 2009 at 9:38 AM
phew… for a minute there I thought this had something to do with terrorism… nice to see it is just because we’re racists against iran.
gatorboy on November 13, 2009 at 9:38 AM
So what would piss Iran off more, giving the Mosques to Christains or to Atheists to have them converted a la Hagia Sophia (obviously on a less grand scale).
WashJeff on November 13, 2009 at 9:38 AM
Is this karma? A fascist seizing the assets of a muslim fundamentalist regime….
It’s like Ali Baba and the 40 thieves haggling over loot….
ted c on November 13, 2009 at 9:39 AM
How about GE???
right2bright on November 13, 2009 at 9:39 AM
Apparently the Alavi Foundation is already in trouble for doing just that- destroying documents they were directed to preserve.
highhopes on November 13, 2009 at 9:40 AM
Take over mosques :)) now this is the kind of takeover i can vongratulate zerobama.
anikol on November 13, 2009 at 9:40 AM
As soon as BHO leaves town, Eric Holder makes all his announcements…KSM, Alavi Foundation,Black Panther prosecution…just kidding on the last one.
d1carter on November 13, 2009 at 9:40 AM
There’s a Muslim Prayer house or whatever it’s called, right next to (literally, adjacent to) the Orange County Airport in Costa Mesa, CA (formerly called the John Wayne Airport when men were men and Political Correctness was something stuck on the bottom of John Wayne’s boot).
Take a look on Google maps (google “Muslim Mosque Costa Mesa”) and you’ll see the place right there backing up to the very airport runway.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 9:40 AM
To counter the backlash from Ft. Hood…
right2bright on November 13, 2009 at 9:40 AM
Are we sure the Alavi foundation wasn’t counseling Iraq War vets, and that their misdeeds were caused by incidental exposure to PTSD?
Bishop on November 13, 2009 at 9:41 AM
HERE…
Use the Satellite function and go in close…the “Islamic Educational Center Orange” is right there up against/adjacent to the airport runway in Costa Mesa (Orange County), CA (other side of airport runway is Irvine, CA).
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 9:42 AM
I don’t think this has anything to do with Zero getting tough on the importation of jihad, but about these people contributing to the Clinton library and having something to torpedo Hillary with when she challenges him in 2012.
wildcat84 on November 13, 2009 at 9:43 AM
From Forbes:
amerpundit on November 13, 2009 at 9:43 AM
I remember CAIR having kittens over FBI agents going undercover into mosques and monitoring the sermons. Can’t wait to see their dishonest response this time.
Blake on November 13, 2009 at 9:44 AM
Sorry, looks like the link won’t hold for Google Maps…’
Just Google Map “Muslim Mosque Orange County CA” and you’ll get numerous results; the one to which I refer is the first on the list, sits right there adjacent to the runway at Orange County Airport (John Wayne Airport).
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 9:44 AM
Internment camps for their assets.
BuckeyeSam on November 13, 2009 at 9:45 AM
Hey, the timing on this is the story.
We’re moving high profile enemy combatents to criminal courts in NYC, and at the same time going after the Iranian base in NYC?
Highly doubtful. I completely distrust this administration and whatever the obvious story is, the real story is elsewhere.
ORconservative on November 13, 2009 at 9:47 AM
Shortly after 9/11, Marc Fisher wrote in the Washington Post about the IEC in Rockville, MD, where I live. This is one of the seized locations.
And this:
Finally:
Attila (Pillage Idiot) on November 13, 2009 at 9:47 AM
Until cap-and-trade passes and other goodies kick in for GE, it doesn’t have enough value to make it worth the feds’ effort.
BuckeyeSam on November 13, 2009 at 9:47 AM
Time for concessions to Iran in return?
Can’t this president manage to make one trip abroad without either apologizing or making concessions?
In Tokyo, Obama Makes Concession on Marine Base
Drained Brain on November 13, 2009 at 9:47 AM
DITTO.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 9:48 AM
Why not just have a drug company say they need the land to build new drug plants. Then the government will take it over the parcels by eminent domain. This is already Supreme Court approved.
CBP on November 13, 2009 at 9:50 AM
Hypocrite principal, there, because “Alla Akhbar” (however it’s spelled) TRANSLATED ACTUALLY MEANS *NOT* “God is Great” BUT “ALLAH IS GREATER” — meaning, greater than “other gods”.
Islam doesn’t instruct that the One Creator of the Universe, God, is “great” or “greatest” BUT THAT ALLAH, THEIR RENDITION, is greater than others…
It still boils down to some form of Satanism or Paganism.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 9:52 AM
This is good.
But this is very worrisome.
Loxodonta on November 13, 2009 at 9:54 AM
I’m afraid I don’t get it. Counter backlash at Muslim-radicals by proving that such groups exist in the US? Keep in mind that prior to the Ft. Hood shootings and for a long while afterward, we were not supposed to view Islam as anything but a peaceful religion in America. We were told not to jump to conclusions concerning that religion despite overwhelming evidence that the shooter, Hasan, was acting in religion-based hatred (the Allu Akhbar thing was a give away).
So the administration that lectures us about not jumping to conclusions goes out there and shows us that, indeed, radical Muslims are working within the US to the extent that they own a Manhattan skyscraper? Seems like a mixed message at best.
highhopes on November 13, 2009 at 9:54 AM
the reason I ask about where this property in Va is, is because there is some sort of Muslim place in Charlotte Co, Va (in the middle of nowhere in So. Virginia). but this could be a Saudi place. ’cause that’s so much better….
anyway, Charlotte Co. is the next county over from me.
kelley in virginia on November 13, 2009 at 9:58 AM
Bet Obama knew nothing about this. Don`t be surprised if this seizure of the buildings does not happen.
albill on November 13, 2009 at 9:59 AM
Set in motion while the appropriate judges are in place to set legal precedence for the illegality of confiscating Muslim property.
Socmodfiscon on November 13, 2009 at 10:03 AM
I believe wildcat has called it. In the military we call it a preemptive strike.
Now Hillary will toe the line.
LincolntheHun on November 13, 2009 at 10:04 AM
It would be a lot easier if we had this -
Thursday, February 08, 2007
A Proposed Constitutional Amendment
Background and justification to Amendment 28
Whereas Religion is defined as an institution dedicated to improving social conscience and promoting individual and societal spiritual growth in a way that is harmless to others not participating in or practicing the same;
Whereas the United States of America was founded on the ideals of individual rights, including the individual right to practice one’s religion of choice, or no religion, and that there would be no compulsion of religion, nor state sanctioned religion, nor a “religious test” for participation in the body politic;
Whereas Islam includes a complete political and social structure, encompassed by its religious law, Sharia, that supersedes any civil law and that Islam mandates that no secular or democratic institutions are to be superior to Islamic law;
Whereas Islam preaches that it and it alone is the true religion and that Islam will dominate the world and supplant all other religions and democratic institutions;
Whereas Saudi Arabia, the spiritual home of Islam does not permit the practice of any other religion on its soil and even “moderate” Muslims states such as Turkey and Malaysia actively suppress other religions;
Whereas Islam includes as its basic tenet the spread of the faith by any and all means necessary, including violent conquest of non-believers, and demands of its followers that they implement violent jihad (holy war) against those un-willing to convert or submit to Islam, including by deception and subversion of existing institutions;
Whereas on 9/11/2001 19 Muslim hijackers acting in the name of Islam killed 3,000 Americans, and numerous other acts of terrorism have been directed at the American people around the world;
Whereas representatives of Islam around the world including Osama Bin Laden (architect of 9/11), the government of Iran including Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, HAMAS, Hezbollah, and other Islamic groups have declared jihad (war) on America, and regularly declare that America should cease to exist;
Whereas there is no organized Islamic opposition to violent proponents of Islam;
Therefore: Islam is not a religion, but a political ideology more akin to Fascism and totally in opposition to the ideals of freedom as described in the United States Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights.
Be it resolved that the following Amendment to the Constitution be adopted:
Article I
The social/political/ideological system known around the world as Islam is not recognized in the United States as a religion.
The practice of Islam is therefore not protected under the 1st Amendment as to freedom of religion and speech.
Article II
As representatives of Islam around the world have declared war, and committed acts of war, against the United States and its democratic allies around the world, Islam is hereby declared an enemy of the United States and its practice within the United States is now prohibited.
Article III
Immediately upon passage of this Amendment all Mosques, schools and Muslim places of worship and religious training are to be closed, converted to other uses, or destroyed. Proceeds from sales of such properties may be distributed to congregations of said places but full disclosure of all proceeds shall be made to an appropriate agency as determined by Congress. No compensation is to be offered by Federal or State agencies for losses on such properties however Federal funding is to be available for the demolishing of said structures if other disposition cannot be made.
The preaching of Islam in Mosques, Schools, and other venues is prohibited. The subject of Islam may be taught in a post high school academic environment provided that instruction include discussion of Islam’s history of violence, conquest, and its ongoing war on democratic and other non-Islamic values.
The preaching or advocating of Islamic ideals of world domination, destruction of America and democratic institutions, jihad against Judaism, Christianity and other religions, and advocating the implementation of Sharia law shall in all cases be punishable by fines, imprisonment, deportation, and death as prescribed by Congress. Violent expressions of these and other Muslim goals, or the material support of those both in the United States and around the world who seek to advance these Islamic goals shall be punishable by death.
Muslims will be denied the opportunity to immigrate to the United States.
Article IV
Nothing in this amendment shall be construed as authorizing the discrimination against, of violence upon, nor repudiation of the individual rights of those Americans professing to be Muslim. The individual right of conscience is sacrosanct and the practice of Islam within the privacy of home and self is strictly protected to the extent that such individuals do not violate the prohibitions described in Article III.
originaly posted at http://pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.com/2007/02/proposed-constitutional-amendment.html
robscottw on November 13, 2009 at 10:05 AM
There may be another angle to consider here; the 3 American hikers that have been charged with espionage this week. This may be a retaliation against the Iranians for the charges.
elduende on November 13, 2009 at 10:05 AM
Shouldn’t we give them to the Orthodox Church, rather than the atheists?
The conclusion not to jump to is that all Muslims are evil. The conclusion to jump to is that, if you’re Iran, we’re looking around to see how we can turn up the heat, and there a further moves coming down the pike.
They are separate messages.
Bleeds Blue on November 13, 2009 at 10:06 AM
It’s called recruiting those who already have a grudge against the US.
rbj on November 13, 2009 at 10:07 AM
Now that we’ve had a lone-wolf terrorist attack at Fort Hood, how does the Obama Administration change the subject? Sieze some Iranian property and start a show trial on KSM. Absolutely pathetic.
olesparkie on November 13, 2009 at 10:09 AM
I wouldn’t put it past Obama to force the feds to move prematurely, fully expecting the case to implode so that it will make is less likely for law enforcement to pursue these terrorists in the future.
csdeven on November 13, 2009 at 10:09 AM
all of the mosque should be shutdown and charged with Treason, the Qu’ran should be treated as a Treasonous document against our Govt. and traditions(Liberty).
/politically incorrect
jp on November 13, 2009 at 10:11 AM
One of the mosque’s attorneys is the son of a member of the Eizengruppen. After the war, he escaped to a moslem country, converted, and came to the US.
Blake on November 13, 2009 at 10:13 AM
Yes, these incidents are those where first-hand witnesses are needed to substantiate that they actually occur and aren’t fantasies conjured up for convenient cover after Fort Hood (or otherwise).
Maybe Holder’s just “holding their money for them” pending whatever like time to let things blow over…
Who is to say that these events really occur? Who’d verify them, if so, and how?
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:14 AM
I believe the pic used on this thread topic appears to be Mosque in Falls Church on Leesburg Pike… I drive past it every day… but I can’t determine which “100a” is referenced in VA…???
IntheNet on November 13, 2009 at 10:14 AM
Okay, I’ll admit to being torn on this. It does seem appropriate to take legal action against criminal and terrorist enterprises, but I always get squeamish about the confiscation of property.
Does this seem like a Chicago style action?
Count to 10 on November 13, 2009 at 10:14 AM
Let’s give credit where it’s due. This was a decent start of action to address the domestic terror threat.
Sure it will be challenged. Let’s get those discussions going. Find out who is with us, and who is not.
connertown on November 13, 2009 at 10:16 AM
Outrageous. Just ghastly. I’m wondering why anyone in local government (much moreso the Orange County Supervisors) even granted permission for such a group to position/locate themselves there and why.
It’s just extremely strange that of all the office space they could buy or even rent in Orange County, CA, that they’d obtain that particular location right up against/adjacent to the airport runway.
A real security concern, to put it mildly.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:19 AM
And how that guy was granted permission to enter and remain in the U.S., also a huge mystery.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:20 AM
Outstanding!
America and the rest of civilization needs, as a matter of pure survival, to call islam what it is – a cult of death.
Islam is NOT a religion, it is a barbaric political ideology masquerading as a religion, the sooner we recognize that plain fact and confront it properly, the fewer lives will be lost.
Rebar on November 13, 2009 at 10:21 AM
Those hikers are getting what they deserve. If you decide to vacation in a war zone then you’d damn well have a good map. I have no sympathy for these idiots.
highhopes on November 13, 2009 at 10:22 AM
It never was just a simple property management company. Before it was the Alavi Foundation, it was the Pahlavi Foundation, as in “Shah of Iran” Pahlavi, and functioned as a charity under the US Tax Code. After the fall of the Shah, the Iranian Government apparently took over the books and modified just slightly the modes of charity — from sending Iranian students to US universities to distributing Korans to prisoners.
The winners of Rubin et al V Islamic Republic of Iran will undoubtedly be happy that the US has located still more Iranian Government assets but has not yet seized them:
unclesmrgol on November 13, 2009 at 10:23 AM
Seems most of Americas ruling elite have Muslim c*ck breath does it not? Call them out.
BL@KBIRD on November 13, 2009 at 10:23 AM
Or conversely, I wouldn’t put it past Obama to use this as a politically convenient precedent for the ultimate seizure of any place of worship that his administration wants to be placed under state sanction or state control. I fully agree that islam should be stripped of its recognition as a legitimate religion, but this is a tough one. President Precedent always has ulterior motives, and that’s why I hate him so much.
Fishoutofwater on November 13, 2009 at 10:26 AM
Everyone, take note: WHO IS THIS GUY?
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:26 AM
Of course it’s not a religion. It just happens to have a developed theology, cosmology, eschatology, divine commandment dietary laws, notions about salvific grace, prophets, developed concepts of resurrection and judgment by the divine, and commandments to pray multiple times a day.
Why the hell would anybody think it’s a religion?
dieudonne on November 13, 2009 at 10:31 AM
He’s the same little pr!ck who refused to recite the Pledge of Allegiance and take off his hat for the National Anthem at ball games because he was cool.
thomasaur on November 13, 2009 at 10:31 AM
Oh, right, seems some of us overlooked the fact that satanists like to engage in “church,” too.
And blowing themselves up and things like that to “celebrate” and “pray”.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:33 AM
Maybe Obama’s ratcheting up the pressure? Maybe he’s not ALL BAD like most commenters here think? (At least when it comes to national security)
AlexB on November 13, 2009 at 10:33 AM
Wow. You must have been brilliant at Frogger given the way you dodged dealing with a single point there.
dieudonne on November 13, 2009 at 10:34 AM
Are we sure these are actual mosques preaching hatred for the United States to their members…or are they aspirin factories?
Left Coast Right Mind on November 13, 2009 at 10:34 AM
Oh, and cutting the heads off those they despise who won’t join their “religion” (or show their hair in public or walk on a sidewalk or…) and bashing in the heads of their own children to teach them to “pray” and, oh, let’s see, murdering people, even their own relatives and themselves…
Seriously, it’s not a religion, it’s barbarism. Dietary laws aside, there’s little there that resembles anything religious except as an antithesis to it.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:36 AM
What single point there? You made no points but used a comment box to declare a negative. Not like I or anyone has much patience with debating a vacuum.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:37 AM
Well, here’s another Liberal troll…
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:38 AM
You’re right. There is little that resembles a religion except a developed theology, cosmology, eschatology,
divine commandment dietary laws,notions about salvific grace, prophets, developed concepts of resurrection and judgment by the divine, and commandments to pray multiple times a day.One down. Care to address why a non-religion has the rest of those?
dieudonne on November 13, 2009 at 10:39 AM
Is scientology a religion, even though it was made up by L Ron Hubbard for the purpose for making money, as he admitted? I say no, it’s not.
Islam was made up by mohammad, who took his pagan god “hubal”, put some Judaic, early Christian, and Zoroastrian window-dressing on it, called it “allah”, and used it as a justification for a crime, rape, and murder spree that firmly places mohammad as one of the worst human beings who ever drew air.
I say no, islam is not a religion, it is a barbaric ideology worse than nazism, and has no place in a civilized world.
Rebar on November 13, 2009 at 10:39 AM
Never heard of “Frogger,” either. I guess that’s on your list of “religions,” huh?
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:40 AM
The fact that I think you are a fool for suggesting that Islam is not a religion doesn’t make me a troll. It means you’re going to have to provide some reason to buck thousands of years of definition about what constitutes a religion before I’ll respect the idea. Saying that they act like barbarians doesn’t cut it. Savages and barbarians have religions also.
dieudonne on November 13, 2009 at 10:41 AM
I agree with the poster who said it probably has to do with the hikers who were just charged with espionage. My guess is that they will confiscate as much as they can, then quietly give it all back in exchange for the hikers’ return. Or something like that.
Boudica on November 13, 2009 at 10:41 AM
Then please account for the developed theology, cosmology, eschatology, notions about salvific grace, prophets, developed concepts of resurrection and judgment by the divine, and commandments to pray multiple times a day.
dieudonne on November 13, 2009 at 10:42 AM
Frogger began its life as a video game in the 80′s. It’s had numerous revivals, remakes, and re-issues and has become something of a retro cultural touchstone. Sorry if the reference was too vague.
dieudonne on November 13, 2009 at 10:44 AM
dieudonne,
Ahlan wa sahlan brother. Tell us of the beauty and wonder of Islam.
BL@KBIRD on November 13, 2009 at 10:45 AM
Thanks for listing all the wonderful aspects that characterize A CULT.
Let’s see, “Heaven’s Gate” had dietary laws, they had clothing requirements and shared habits, they even shared housing and bodily mutilations, among other characteristics.
By your boardgame definitions, then, Heaven’s Gate was or is “a religion”.
Nothing’s unique about Islam except that it is uniquely hynotic to vulnerable persons with a penchant or tendency toward psychosis. Their concept of “God” as man involves the idolatry of a sick man with pedophilia, among other mentally sick habits and beliefs, as also likely schizophrenic he was.
I’m curious, why even attempt to defend such a “belief system” in any seriousness?
There are people who “believe” in Gaia, Global Warming, Reptile Men, all sorts of things. It’s largely “mania” the equivalent of religious enrapture on an emotional level but it’s hardly what mankind generally recognizes as religion, even IF they “have shared dietary habits.”
So do ants. Bees. Cows and monkeys among others. They all share “dietary habits”.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:46 AM
The “theology” and the rest was stolen wholesale from other religions.
If I took everything from some religion, say Zoroastrianism, called it “Rebarism”, changed the rules to my advantage and placed myself as it’s prophet, does that make Rebarism a legitimate religion?
Rebar on November 13, 2009 at 10:46 AM
Oh, pejoratives now.
I was right, you’re just the runofthemill Leftwing troll who wants to:
(1.) get people talking here about Islam;
(2.) otherwise ram a word-sword against those who won’t or who “argue” with your needs.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Brother dieudonne. You know Mohammed (pbuh) rewrote, adjusted, bastardized and adulterated Christian and Jewish belief to cobble together the Qur’an. Why do you pretend anything Islamic is original?
BL@KBIRD on November 13, 2009 at 10:49 AM
I’m not a believer in Islam nor do I find it particularly beautiful. I just find it monumentally stupid to suggest that it isn’t an organized religious institution. It flies in the face of how one defines what a religion is. Islam concerns itself with the sacral, centers itself on faith, explicitly deals with eternal concepts and questions, commands a life of prayer, deals with theology, cosmology, and eschatology – it has every hallmark of what a religion is. It literally meets all the dictionary definitions as well.
dieudonne on November 13, 2009 at 10:50 AM
“dieudonne” wants to generate a discussion about Islam. And to ridicule others if they don’t give in to that goal.
An easy way to start proselytize is to start asking rhetorical questions, then start espousing the dogma.
Which is what “die-u-donne” is attempting to do.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:50 AM
Did I say it was original? Syncretism does not invalidate something as a religion else most of India and Japan are completely without religion. I’m not disputing that the theology and eschatology of modern day Islam can be deadly dangerous – I’m disputing the idea that it isn’t a religion.
dieudonne on November 13, 2009 at 10:52 AM
Let’s see, people are “fools” and “stupid” and dare to fail to perceive your royal flowering of intellect, yes?
In your rather gutteral terms, then, “religion” is nothing more than a menu. Compose and print a menu, presto, one has founded a religion, ’cause it’s right there, in print: flavors, colors, organized list, formal, presto.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:52 AM
btw, this is an Act of War by Iran
jp on November 13, 2009 at 10:54 AM
I should be cheering…but between the tying of hands of the US military and the 9/11 trial idiocy, this is just asking for trouble. Trouble that we are neither prepared to detect nor foil in time.
Dark-Star on November 13, 2009 at 10:54 AM
Seize the mosques? No, it’s unconstitutional and it sets a bad precedent that Obama and his ilk will use later on to seize other churches.
Skywise on November 13, 2009 at 10:55 AM
No, you’re denigrating humanity in general for failing to whine as you do.
Cults are frequently if not consistently categorized by fervor, the emotional kind, mostly that condescends to general humanity such as you seem possessed to do.
Academia is a cult, by the way, such as you exemplify.
And you’re the one who introduced the entire line of argument (which you’re engaged in in your own mind) about the aspect of Islam as religion or not.
If you’re so intolerant of the ideas and perspectives of others, why bother? You’re displaying an emotional need here to direct the beliefs of others to those of your own, yet your own remain as yet rather cloaked in some hooded whatnot of grandiosity of your own positions.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 10:55 AM
Why can’t victims of moslem violence sue the mosgues where the idiots here the spewing of hatred against infidels. This is the strategy that brougt the KKK to it’s knees. It could work again.
UncleZeb on November 13, 2009 at 10:56 AM
I would argue that they have a good cause, that being the physical safety of the public, but I know deep down that libtards will have no shortage of ‘legitimate’ reasons to try the same on Christian establishments.
Dark-Star on November 13, 2009 at 10:57 AM
We have a winner!
thomasaur on November 13, 2009 at 10:57 AM
No. The fact that I think people are being silly or foolish does not commend my own intellect. The concept of religion is not new and there is not really any confusion about what traits a religion has. If Islam meets that definition than it meets that definition. Nobody here has disputed those traits or offered a new definition or why one should be accepted.
If we says religions share these or those traits and address these and those issues and Hinduism meets all those qualifiers why should it be considered a religion. If Islam meets the exact same list why shouldn’t it be considered a religion if Hinduism is?
dieudonne on November 13, 2009 at 10:58 AM
So, just splitting hairs and defending Islam for shits and giggles?
BL@KBIRD on November 13, 2009 at 10:59 AM
Your earlier example, Church of Scientology, was deemed a religion for tax purposes. Note that the IRS does not have the power nor ability to grant a belief system or “set of tools” (what CoS calls their technology) to be religious or not, it just has the ability to categorize institutions for tax purposes.
Though I think it’s unreasonable to even introduce the subject of the CoS in with Islam in the current context of Muslim terrorism and threat to our national security, particularly since I don’t see Scientologists blowing people up, flying planes into buildings, infiltrating our nation in general for subterfuge purposes and chopping people’s heads off.
Lourdes on November 13, 2009 at 11:00 AM
Wow. Paranoid much? My belief has been brazen and unhidden from the outset. My belief is that Islam does in fact constitute a religion by the commonly accepted usage and definition of that concept and that I think it’s silly to suggest otherwise. Nothing hidden or sinister in that.
I also explicitly stated that I don’t find Islam to be a thing of beauty and that I think there are a lot of dangerous ideas floating around in it that can and do lead to violence.
The fact that I think people are silly and foolish when they try to assert that it isn’t a religion doesn’t make me an apologist for that faith.
dieudonne on November 13, 2009 at 11:01 AM
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