Radar: More Carrie Prejean videos?

I also think that when these “videos” are exposed to actually be a few webcam captures at a low framerate people will be pretty disappointed.

Jason Coleman on November 14, 2009 at 8:17 PM

Fed 45 tries to use the translation of fornication from the Latin porneia to attempt to lump a variety of acts into the specific act which the Bible decries.

This is false on it’s face. Fornication is specifically defined in the surrounding context everywhere it’s mentioned and it’s not masturbation.

To try and say that the Latin is definitive and the true meaning of the scripture is failing to recognize that the Latin is a translation from Greek which is in itself a translation from other older language.It’s pretty obvious from context is what’s important here and not once in the bible is masturbation in any way shape or form mentioned.

There’s no discussion of the favorite passtime of pre- and post-pubescent boys in the absence of available females. There’s no discussion of manual stimulation of oneself as being sinful.

Sure, there are plenty of versus that people try to take out of context and expand to include it, but it’s simply not discussed anywhere.IF it is, the please, I’m sincerely asking, point out the verses.

But also understand that I am going to look at the context of those versus and won’t rely on on an expanded definition of one word that’s been translated three or four times over (like the examples already discussed above).I’m not trying to be a pill here. I’d really like to see it, because I’ve gone over it quite a few times and “masturbation is sin” or any variant thereof, simply isn’t there. I’d love to be shown to be wrong.

Onan’s dilemma isn’t it, and it has nothing to do with the adultery versus in Matthew.

Leviticus 15′s “seed of copulation” specifically states that at worst, it could merely render one unclean and unclean is not a sin, it’s just unclean until you can wash up.

Corinthians 5 talks about fornication, but there’s nothing there about being ALONE equating to fornication and hence a sin.If you want to say that masturbation is “unclean” according to the Bible, that’s fine, but a sin? It’s just not in there.

No blood sacrifices for wanking. Just a bath.

Jason Coleman on November 15, 2009 at 9:19 PM

How about you re-write your response without the ad hominem and without telling me what I may dare to talk about.

That would be the Christian thing to do. Wouldn’t it.

Jason Coleman on November 16, 2009 at 11:27 PM

Apacalyps,

You are beclowning yourself.

First, I’m not some phony Christian. I’m an atheist. I said so in my original comment.

As for phony Christians, the only phony Christian I see is those like you who are trying to use the Bible as a bludgeon for their own purposes, not Christian ones.

You say “Don’t lecture me” when you tell me not to ‘dare’ speak of this or that. You make me laugh. I’m not ignoring scripture either, I’m trying to get to the root truth of scripture to understand how Christianity has evolved and diverged from it’s original path.

You haven’t “shown” me anything, you’ve taken verses unrelated to the subject out of context and cherry-picked phrases to expand upon without basis.

The definition I have given you is a simple one. The FACT is that no where in the bible does it speak in any way shape or form to the definition of masturbation I’ve given you. YOU CHOSE to expand that definition into ‘lust’ and ‘adultery’ and that’s a fools game which I won’t play.

To are taking snippets of scripture and expanding them into all encompassing orders from on high which scripture in context explicitly forbids you from doing, but to take the scripture at it’s word is to deny yourself the hammer you wish.

My questions were simple and honest, you chose to make them into something else and launch a series of ad hominems instead of addressing the point. In my opinion, that’s par for the course for those who want to wear their Christianity on their sleeve as you are want to do.

Finally, let me also state what a intellectually dishonest person you are. Not only do you take your god-constructs words and alter his quotes, you do it with everyone you seem to encounter. That makes you a LIAR, plain and simple. Beyond the laughable nature of the false quotes you attribute to me, you sadden me and insult all Christians when you twist and falsify quotes from your own god-construct.

These questions I’m asking have nothing to do with a desire for me to “give up” masturbation” I’m trying to see how some supposed Christians are justifying themselves for calling something a sin which is not defined as such by their Bible.

At best, masturbation is merely “unclean”. It is not a sin worthy of blood sacrifice, it’s not even worthy of animal sacrifice. The Bible’s only instruction on it is that it’s possibly unclean, and unclean is not a sin.

Matt. 5.28 is not about masturbation, it’s not even about adultery in the modern sense, and you’d realize that if you read it in context. Matt. 5.27 makes this clear.

James 1 13-15 likewise is not about masturbation, it’s about temptation, which masturbation is not, it can be, but it’s not in a of itself. Unless of course you define masturbation with lust, which again, it is not, it can be, but it is not in and of itself.

Likewise Timothy and James 4 do not refer to masturbation, period.

As for 1 Cor. 10:31, it’s pretty clear what’s meant there, and it’s not what you think just like scratching one’s head because you have an itch isn’t covered by the verse, Colossians 3:17 and Peter 4:11 show that the Corinthians verse is about actions mainly with others and the exultation of the Lord, not the mundane physical tasks of daily life. Again, no references to masturbation whatsoever.

Finally, let me laugh at you once more for the utter betrayal of Christian values you’ve demonstrated here. Let me point out again your intellectual dishonest for altering the words and nature of quotes you attribute to me, and let me tell you a hearty “F*ck you” for trying to tell me what I “dare” not talk about. Especially when you and your ilk are the one who “dare” to tell children things are sins which clearly are NOT defined as such by your god-construct and your scripture.

If it is clearly defined, then show me. Because the Bible instructs “not to go beyond what is written” and you so clearly do, I find you largely irrelevant. So perhaps you want to NOW back away from you ad hominem and address the issue honestly, but I doubt you want to do either.

Masturbation is not lust. Masturbation is not fornication, and it’s not adultery. I can be two of these three things, but it in and of itself is simply not. Only in your expanded and delusional fantasy is masturbation a sin worth of blood sacrifice and a trip to hell and quite frankly, I think you’re a sick puppy for trying to take it there.

So again, I ask, if someone can point to a verse, that defines masturbation (not lust, not adultery, not underwater basket weaving) as a SIN (not unclean, not something to avoid, but a big *ss SIN), I would be very happy if you pointed it out.

Especially since it’s obvious I’ve read my Bibles quite a few times more than Apacalyps has read his.

Jason Coleman on November 17, 2009 at 6:00 AM

See, the problem is you have NOT shown where the Bible “clearly says masturbation is a sin”. You simply have not.

Even 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 does not say that. It says what you should do, but it DOES NOT say that masturbation is a sin. It doesn’t say that if you don’t treat your body like a temple that that is a “sin”.

There is a HUGE difference between what is considered unclean, and what is a sin. A gulf separates the two.

You are choosing to equate things that are unclean with “sin” and through the “not beyond what is written” you are committing more of an infraction against your god-construct that the act of masturbation does. Which again, is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

You keep trying to include things with are specifically excluded from “sin”. The Bible states that masturbation is unclean, THAT IS IT, and even that is a bit of a stretch because it only holds that it’s unclean IN THE PRESENCE OF YOUR WIFE OR A WOMAN.

Find me the passage where it states that masturbation is a sin and I will GLADLY agree with you, because even though I am an atheist, I’m a fan of the Hebrew and Christian faiths. It pains me to see people diminish the value of what is called “sin” and elevate the minor infractions by blowing them out of proportions when those proportions are specifically laid out.

Masturbation is unclean. Granted, and I’ll point out that I’m the one who posted that passage. You have not delivered on anything that equates masturbation with sin.

Sins are the capital crimes of Christianity and Judaism.
Masturbation is a class C misdemeanor.

Going beyond what is written. . . now THAT is a sin.

Teaching children (or anyone) that X is a sin when it’s not, that is unconscionable; in fact, in the Hebrew and Aramaic languages, it’s satanic.

I respect the word of the god-construct of the Bible because I respect Christianity, what I don’t respect is someone extrapolating beyond what is there in scripture and calling it truth. That’s what you have done and are continuing to try to do when you equate unclean acts with sin.

Jason Coleman on November 17, 2009 at 7:12 PM

Well, that’s too bad. Especially since you’ve never tried to actually address my points nor defend yours. Each verse I challenge you conveniently have dropped to substitute another with equally poor results for your position.

It’s too bad you think so many things which aren’t are sins. Should you be right about the afterlife, you’ve got some serious ‘splaining to do.

Remember, Satan in Hebrew and Aramaic means “the accuser” and if you look back on you’re posts, you’ve sure done alot of that.

Have a fantastic day.

Jason Coleman on November 17, 2009 at 11:10 PM

You are the one calling God a liar by claiming He doesn’t really mean what He says.

Wow! That’s rich. My entire point is that some Christians (like you) are going beyond the word of their own scripture to go beyond what the specific scriptural versus say.

Lust and masturbation are two completely different things. That’s definitional by ANY standard, and it’s specifically stated in the Bible. The Bible states rather unequivocally that Lust is indeed a sin. The Bible also states rather unequivocally that masturbation is “unclean”.

Unclean and Sin are two different things.

YOU SIR, are breaking a direct commandment of your lord who commands that you “not go beyond what is written”.

I have shown you the verse which states that masturbation is “unclean”. You have not shown where the Bible states that masturbation is a “sin”.

Are you attempting to say that “unclean” equates to “sin” in the eyes of your lord?

The above is a pretty simple at straightforward question, a simple yes/no will do but if you’d like to elaborate as to how “unclean” equals “sin” I’d sincerely like to hear it.

I find it interesting that I’m protecting the integrity of your scriptures and I’m the atheist. You’re certainly putting alot of scripture into your lord’s mouth which you have no basis for. If he didn’t say it, I’d be careful about saying he did if I were you.

“Go not beyond what is written.” Have any thoughts on that? Any at all?

Jason Coleman on November 18, 2009 at 1:48 AM

Do you see what you are writing, it’s nonsensical.

You sure do demand alot of answers to questions but seem to constantly refuse to answer them.

Let’s continue.

“Lust and masturbation go hand-in-hand with one another.” This statement does NOTHING to prove your point. In fact it proves mine.

If they go “hand in hand” you are flat out admitting they are NOT the same thing. Sure they may be close, they may be coincident but they are not the same thing. The Bible makes this distinction quite clearly as I have shown through verse. Masturbation is unclean, lust is sin. Masturbation is not lust just like unclean is not sin.

“Tell me who masturbates without first formulating a sexual thought in their mind? I want an answer to that. ” That’s pretty simple. Millions of men daily who wake up with morning wood would fit this criteria. Millions of people daily who wake up with a hangover may also fit this bill as it’s one of the easiest ways to release endorphins and knock down a hangover.

How am I defining LUST. I AM NOT. I’m merely looking at scripture. I am using the scripture to define terms here. I’m not like some of you Christians who read whatever you want to see into the scripture.

So now you’re going to throw Galatians into this. Do you realize that you just keep throwing verses at the wall to see if you can get one to stick. When one doesn’t stick you throw another completely irrelevant one.

I’ve answered your demands for specific answers to specific question, but you’ve repeatedly refused to answer mine.

You equate masturbation and lust. The Bible does not. That is a set of simple logical statements backed up by the scripture. Masturbation is unclean, Lust is sin.

Are you trying to equate “unclean” and “sin”, if you are, you are doing EXACTLY what your god-construct specifically instructs you to do.

Before you whine about a definition of lust, this one works fine for me:

lust -verb- To have an intense or obsessive desire, especially one that is sexual.

lust -noun- An overwhelming desire or craving

Neither of those are required for masturbation. The Bible recognizes this. The Bible is even very specific to show that masturbation is one thing (“unclean”) and lust is another (“sin”).

My atheism doesn’t make any difference here because this is not a discussion of faith, it’s a simple discussion of the scripture in and of itself. I choose to take it for it’s word and adhere to the admonition to “go not beyond what is written” while you chose to make up definitions and meaning however it suits you and your own proclivities and prejudices.

How bout you be a good Christian now and stop with the ad hominem attacks and strawmen and misdirection. Answer some of my questions directly as I’ve answered yours directly.

Are you attempting to say that “unclean” equates to “sin” in the eyes of your lord?

Why do you insist on changing the specific instructions with ever expanding interpretations when the Bible specifically instructs you to “go not beyond what is written?”

Lust and masturbation are two different things, your Bible says so directly, why do you deign to re-interpret that which instructs you not to?

Keep talking about lust all you want, just know, that according to the Bible, it’s orders of magnitude different from masturbation.

Again if you can find something that says that masturbation is a sin, please do. Lust is not masturbation, simple as that according to your lord and his scripture.

I’ll also offer you some advice. You keep throwing scripture against the wall, try sticking with one verse that you think might do what you want and defend that, when you keep changing your tunes to try and find something that works, it only shows that you don’t really understand the points you are trying to argue, and you’re merely working from a list. It’s much easier and HONEST to work from one or two postulates and find the truth in those rather than trying to obfuscate and jump around in the hopes of tiring me out.

The Bible says they are different. Refute that if you would. Unless of course “unclean” and “sin” are the same to you, despite their differences to your lord.

Jason Coleman on November 18, 2009 at 12:12 PM

“I said masturbating is the fruit of lust.” Yes, you did, and you proved my point, that one is not the other. I’ve always said that it CAN involve lust, but it is not mandatory for it to do so. It’s simply not.

“You cannot masturbate without lusting after somebody in your heart because you have to lust after someody to get aroused.”

Simply not true, you don’t have to lust after someone to masturbate. It’s absurd to say that in order to masturbate, YOU MUST lust after some specific person. That’s simply not true.

Romans 1:24-27 Here you go again, it’s not saying what you think it’s saying, it’s MAY be interpreted that IF you give over to lust, etc. etc. But it does NOT say that Masturbation is sin.

Back to Galatians, you never responded to the fact that the word SIN is nowhere in Galatians 5. Yet you contintue to go where you’re explicitly told not to by scripture.

And you said people who woke up with a hangover and an erection and masturbated to release endorphins to knock down their hangover — that’s intellectual dishonesty and a waste of my time.

Intellectually dishonesty? PROVE IT, I dare you. Not to mention that you significantly altered the quote. You are a LIAR, plain and simple. Now go back and read what I actually wrote and not what you twisted it into and TRY AND PROVE ME WRONG! Knocking down morning wood is VERY well documented and has nothing to do with lusts and arousal via sexual thoughts. The erection is a response by your unconscious to prevent you from pissing all over yourself in your sleep.

As for people knocking down their hangover through endorphin release, that’s also well documented.

Remember, I only need ONE example of someone doing either to prove your whole premise completely wrong. So . . . you’ve been proven wrong. . . AGAIN.

1st Corinthians doesn’t help you either because your versus don’t refer to masturbation. YOU ARE ASSUMING THAT, and there is not any basis for it in the scripture. You don’t get to just make up what it says, although that doesn’t seem to stop you very much, you seem to just make it up as you go along. There’s nothing in 1st Cor. doesn’t say anything about masturbation, it does say don’t go out and have sex with some random woman, but it DOES NOT say anything about masturbation. To say it does is to LIE.

You seem to twist scripture as much as you twist other people’s quotes.

fornication (that is, any sexual relationship outside of heterosexual marriage)

— There is NO RELATIONSHIP in masturbation, that’s the whole point of it. No relationship needed. Fornication is actually the polar OPPOSITE of masturbation.

You know what masterbation is? It’s a lack of self control.

Actually again you’re just making stuff up. By it’s very definition, masturbation is only self controlled. FIND ME THE PASSAGE where it says masturbation is a lack of self control.

IF ANYTHING, the Bible (my source here, I don’t know what your source is) says that masturbation IS controlling where and when your seed winds up. That’s the whole point of Onan that he resisted his urge through self control to NOT impregnate his brother’s wife.

You are seriously flawed in your argumentation here bub.

Now I asked nice, and especially after you chastised me so about not directly answering your buried question, I’ll put it here in bold and it and see if you avoid it again.

Why do you insist in disobeying the Bible which states quite clearly to “not go beyond what is written”?

and

Are you trying to equate “unclean” with “sin” despite their clear separation in scripture?

In other words, why do you keep making things up and saying that they are “in the Bible”?

PS Vessel, in Hebrew and the Aramaics does not mean what you think it does. Neither does fornication and neither does adultery.

Jason Coleman on November 19, 2009 at 8:39 PM

You just couldn’t face up to “go not beyond what is written” could you?

I find it hilarious you want to sermonize about/to me.

The Bible states masturbation is unclean.
The Bible states that unclean and sin are different.
The Bible says to “go not beyond what is written.”

You state masturbation is sin.
You state that unclean and sin are the same.
You go beyond what is written.

This atheist is a better Christian than the Christian who calls himself apacalyps.

Perversions of the scripture like you are doing apacalyps are exactly the same as the perversions that led to Martin Luther nailing the theses to the door. Twisting scripture the way you do is what drives so many young people away from Christianity. When their elders and teachers tell them that something is X and the Bible says it’s Y, they see the hypocrisy. They see that you twist the word of your god-construct to mean whatever you want it to mean, and they see through your attempts to tell them that up is down, white is black and freedom is slavery.

You are a disgrace to all those real Christians out there apacalyps.

I’ll also let you know that you could have easily said “Well, you’re right, the word masturbation isn’t in the Bible. . . but, in the Christian tradition, we hold that it is unclean and leads to sin.” Wham, done, and easy.

Instead you tried to claim obvious untruths as truth, and further you tried to claim untruths as scripture. You could have easily made the case for “protection of the individual from himself” is a goal of the Christian Church and it’s supported by scripture, and you’d have been golden.

But no, you took the scripture and lied about it. You took scripture and distorted it in an attempt to get it to say what YOU wanted it to.

You’re a pretty sad example of a Christian.

Start simple to redeem yourself. “Go not beyond what is written.”

Jason Coleman on November 20, 2009 at 12:48 AM

HAHAHAHA I’m the one “twisting”. That’s rich.

Come on now, it’s almost comical how you bend over backwards to avoid confronting that one simple verse.

“Go not beyond what is written.”

Don’t worry about my afterlife. All I have to do is ask for forgiveness and I’ll be fine if I’m wrong about what is or isn’t out there.

You have a much bigger problem. Here you are, confronted by very simple and easy decisions, and rather than face scripture, you have to misrepresent what is written by substituting your own maniacal twist on it.

Once again, as simple as one can make it:

The Bible states masturbation is unclean.
The Bible states that unclean and sin are different.
The Bible says to “go not beyond what is written.”

You state masturbation is sin.
You state that unclean and sin are the same.
You go beyond what is written.

Jason Coleman on November 20, 2009 at 6:26 AM