Open thread: PelosiCare vote coming tonight; Update: 35 Dems oppose? Update: Stupak amendment passes; Update: Bill passes, 220-215, one GOPer votes yes
posted at 5:45 pm on November 7, 2009 by Allahpundit
Twitter’s hopping with rumors about vote-wrangling and backroom deals so I figured you guys could use a thread to exchange information. Just within the past half hour, Politico’s heard whispers from the Democratic leadership that they’ve reached 218. Debate on Stupak’s amendment to strip abortion funding from the bill is coming up, followed by a vote on that and then — sometime between nine and eleven p.m. — the big vote on PelosiCare itself. If you’re watching this all play out on C-SPAN (either on TV or online), keep your eye on Republicans demanding a promise from Pelosi that if Stupak’s amendment passes, it won’t later be dropped in the conference committee with the Senate. The Democrats have been coy about that thus far.
Updates will appear below as warranted. In the meantime, here’s Paul Ryan trying to rally the troops, apparently to no avail. Exit question via Karl: Should the GOP vote “present” on Stupak’s amendment instead of voting for it? Think strategically.
Update: The office of the GOP whip says 33 Democrats will vote no. 41 is the magic number.
Update: If you’re looking for reasons to hope, remember that Pelosi also thought she had 218 when TARP first came to the House floor for a vote last year. That went down in flames, only to be resuscitated a week later.
Update: Here’s a fun thought: What if the bill passes 218-217 … and Bill Owens casts the deciding vote? Dude.
Update: Locker-room pep talk, Obama style:
In listing their legislation they have passed to this point, the president told them, “You did this without any help from the other side,” complaining Republicans have been “saying ‘no,’ stopping progress, gumming up the works was their preferred strategy.”
“Are we going to stop now, or push forward?” Obama asked.
“Push forward,” a dozen or so Democrats shouted back.
“I’m absolutely confident we’ll get this thing done,” Obama told the group. “And when I’m in the Rose Garden signing a piece of legislation to give health care to all Americans, we’ll look back and say that was our finest moment.”
Update: Cantor says there are 35 Democratic no’s. It’ll be razor thin.
Update: At 10 p.m. ET, the vote on Stupak’s anti-abortion amendment is finally on. Stand by. As I write this, it’s 73/90 against passage.
Update: The vote on the amendment is 236/190 as I write this, which is bad news. Not only is there no guarantee that the amendment will survive the conference committee with the Senate (or a Supreme Court challenge, natch), but this gives pro-life Blue Dogs the cover they need to vote for the final bill. It’s going to pass. Sigh.
Update: A smart minority party would have voted present and made the Dems choke on it. Alas, this is our minority party:
“We believe in the sanctity of life, and the Stupak-Pitts Amendment addresses a moral issue of the utmost concern. It will limit abortion in the United States. Because of this, while we strongly and deeply oppose the underlying bill, we decided to stand with Life and support Stupak-Pitts.
“The danger of this bill passing without critical pro-life language was too great a risk to do otherwise. Indeed, a number of Democrat supporters of Stupak-Pitts had privately indicated to many of our colleagues that all they needed for “cover” was a vote, and they would support final passage even if the amendment failed.
“To be clear, the Stupak-Pitts Amendment’s passage is the right thing to do. We believe you just don’t play politics with life.
“When this bill is conferenced with the Senate, the pro-life majority in the House of Representatives must ensure that this important amendment is in the final legislation. If it does not, this same strong majority must defeat the bill.”
Update: It’s 10:45 ET and it looks like the final vote is coming within the next 15 minutes. I held out hope this morning that we might get a humpbot cameo tonight, but it looks like we’re in for an appearance by the melting bunny of death instead. Heart-ache.
Update: My prediction for the final vote, as of 10:52: 224-211.
Update: It was closer than I thought: 220-215, 39 Dems voting no and a solitary Republican — Joe Cao, who replaced “Dollar Bill” Jefferson in a blue district in Louisiana — voting yes. Take heart, righties: Reid is incompetent, which makes the likelihood of 60 votes in the Senate, especially after a vote this narrow, very slim indeed.
But for now, we grieve.
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It’s no longer being held in Washington, it’s going to be at Lexington Green instead. Bring whatever you need…ahem.
Bishop on November 8, 2009 at 12:01 PM
Q: What is the difference between Democrats desire to take away our freedom, to the Devil wanting to take a way our soul?
.
.
.
A: No difference
Dasher on November 8, 2009 at 12:02 PM
If I were a company strapped for cash and had to choose between terminating employees or health insurance…
Of course, every company dumping their insurance is not even factored into the CBO estimates.
Skywise on November 8, 2009 at 12:02 PM
What’s the current employment status for your liberal colleagues? Just curious.
BuckeyeSam on November 8, 2009 at 12:03 PM
A: The devil gives you a better deal…
Skywise on November 8, 2009 at 12:03 PM
No Problem. Ready to roll.
JoeAvg on November 8, 2009 at 12:04 PM
.
Or facing a new 8 percent payroll tax, for non-compliance, they will be laying off another 8 percent of its employees.
Dasher on November 8, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Was that a complete overhaul of the system into a bureaucratic monstrosity with Higher costs, lower quality, rationing and long waits for treatment?
Did that include the IRS as the enforcer of the system?
Were people going to be Forced into buying that insurance?
Was there parallel legislation to hobble the economy in Crap and TAX?
Need I go On?
Chainsaw56 on November 8, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Not sure about the House bill, but Baucus’s bill tried to factor in the “cadillac-plan” tax. CBO actually found tax revenue continuing. That doesn’t make sense. I have to believe that companies with the flexibility to do so will scale back benefits to avoid the tax. Problem solved: less benefits, less revenue for the government, greater deficit.
Of course, that’s the Baucus bill.
BuckeyeSam on November 8, 2009 at 12:07 PM
Yes, it’s always the same playbook, and the result is always the same, the real question is WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE THAT KEEP ON REPEATING IT?
Chainsaw56 on November 8, 2009 at 12:11 PM
If our elected officials don’t think the public wants to know who voted for this bill…I suggest they check the #1 Google Trends search query.
Google Trends Popular Searches
Let their heads roll.
Fishy.Gov on November 8, 2009 at 12:12 PM
Now that the house has passed this,health care, bawney can seek bonuses and raises for the people at freddie mac cause they only lost 5 billion. I mean what’s money for dems?
tim c on November 8, 2009 at 12:13 PM
Ernesto
You are mistaking the past slow decay of ignorance and indifference with the deliberate destruction of men and women with an agenda to destroy what exists in order to replace it with something completely different. This isn’t “The New Deal”. Our dollar is on the verge of complete collapse. The New Deal was implemented when we had the where with all to tread water no matter how deep the ocean. Now? We are under water. We are breathing air from limited tanks and instead of devising ways to surface or at least get more air we are sucking down the last gasps of oxygen as fast as we can until we all drown because too many of us were too damned stupid to understand the basic facts in front of us as a nation. When this domino falls there will be no stopping what follows. This is terminal stupidity, plain and simple.
If your dellusions help you to cope then I wish you well with them, but don’t come here and tell everyone – people with their eyes wide open smart enough and brave enough to face reality – that they are making much to do about nothing. Believe me, to a man and woman, these Americans wish they did not know what they know and they wish they could unsee what is clearly coming.
BrideOfRove on November 8, 2009 at 12:14 PM
I think the public would like to know what is actually IN the bill.
The best speech of the night was Boehmer’s, when he read specifics.
AnninCA on November 8, 2009 at 12:14 PM
Horribly enough, the plan does have an expectation of 167 billion paid into it by people who are fined for not carrying insurance. Unbelievable, the ‘rats actually want people to be punished to help pay for their scheme.
Bishop on November 8, 2009 at 12:14 PM
That’s not the point. This isn’t just a giant financial boondoggle. Most of us here hate the cap and trade bill too but you’ll note we don’t use words like “illegal and unconstitutional” when we discuss them because the cap and trade bill isn’t. (Stupid yes, illegal no).
If Obama had just extended Medicare to cover everybody he would’ve gotten exactly what he claimed he wanted and it would’ve been 100% legal.
But he DIDN’T. Instead he’s co-opting the entire health insurance industry and forcing everyone to purchase a government approved plan with penalties of JAIL TIME if you don’t ***AND*** the plan still leaves huge swaths of people uncovered.
That’s not a bill for health care. That’s not a bill “for the people” That’s a POWER GRAB. Combined with the financial sector Obama controls plus the automotive industry which Obama has shown he’ll cajole Ford through the UAW he will now control, directly, roughly 30% of the economy.
Does any of that strike you as odd?
Skywise on November 8, 2009 at 12:16 PM
Heh, too bad they didn’t let us in on the secrets Before they voted on it.
Chainsaw56 on November 8, 2009 at 12:16 PM
mycowardice on November 8, 2009 at 11:55 AM
No, I was deployed fighting for the freedom that you and your family enjoyed back then.
You’re welcome.
ted c on November 8, 2009 at 12:16 PM
notice i used the past tense “enjoyed” not enjoy, present tense, but past tense on purpose.
ted c on November 8, 2009 at 12:17 PM
We are all going to die.
uknowmorethanme on November 8, 2009 at 12:18 PM
That upset me the most. We’ve been stuck arguing generalities all summer.
Finally, there’s something to truly kick the tires about specifically, and you had to be home watching CSPAN on a Saturday night.
That frosts me. It’s contemptuous of really understanding the vast impact of this reform bill. I don’t care if they pull that on smaller bills. I frankly don’t WANT to debate every single bill. That’s why I vote for representatives.
This should have been treated differently, given the impact.
AnninCA on November 8, 2009 at 12:19 PM
Plus, pragmatically, I think that’s a very bad approach to any major reform legislation. The point is to get people to accept change OR recognize that, perhaps, the approach isn’t going to work.
Cram-downs do not work.
AnninCA on November 8, 2009 at 12:21 PM
This thing is sooooo far away from becoming law, if it was a marathon – we would be in mile 2. The Senate still has to pass a bill, then it goes to conference where they negotiate a final bill, then that final bill has to be passed again in both the house and senate.
here is the catch, they can’t get 60 votes in the senate with a public option, PERIOD – but they can’t get it through the house without a public option – PERIOD.
Health care reform is DOA.
Now everyone get off here and go watch football.
Fishy.Gov on November 8, 2009 at 12:23 PM
To quote Star wars,
Chainsaw56 on November 8, 2009 at 12:24 PM
Because many of the bright ones will be going Galt…
eanax on November 8, 2009 at 12:24 PM
Nah, I really think they’ll just stop offering the private insurance and let their employees go onto the public plan. Which is really what Obama wants. C’mon, he’s SAID that he wants govenrment control over the entire industry.
This bill let’s the government set the rules about what insurance can cover, automatically making the private plans more expensive because government will be the baseline. HR offices will sit and look at the Blue-Cross plan which offers a $50 better deductible for $100 more or the government plan which is $100 cheaper… huh wonder what they’ll choose?
You can’t outcompete the government. It’s like letting the referees play in the football game.
Skywise on November 8, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Along with the rest of the Achievers in our society.
Chainsaw56 on November 8, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Or go to jail. Or go to jail and die.
hawkdriver on November 8, 2009 at 12:28 PM
Yeah but I get free healthcare in jail…
Skywise on November 8, 2009 at 12:29 PM
It’s funny you should mention that, my colleagues at work are all conservative and still gainfully employed ;)
SG1_Conservative on November 8, 2009 at 12:32 PM
I guess I’ll be headed that way because I won’t pay for health care that I already have. Will I be a felon?
hawkdriver on November 8, 2009 at 12:33 PM
Here’s to REALLY HOPING you’re right.
It’s not over till the Botox lady sings.
Chainsaw56 on November 8, 2009 at 12:36 PM
My PC has been down (I’m at my parents house as I type this) and I haven’t been watching news at all for a couple weeks as I recovery from my eye surgery. I had a bad feeling about this but hopefully the Senate drops the ball as predicted.
I did catch a bit of news a couple days ago only to find out a Islamist scumbag shot up a base and that unemployment rose to over 10% even though I knew it was “unofficially” over that mark for some time. They say ignorance is bliss but there’s nothing blissful about being ignorant to events around you…. no matter how depressing. I knew unemployment would get even worse but the shooting at the Army base… heartbreaking but not surprising at all given the bastard who did it unfortunately. Right when I say his name, I knew it. Damn him.
Yakko77 on November 8, 2009 at 12:45 PM
How can anyone fail to see how this bill will increase the overall unemployment rate? Not just with small business, but within the insurance industry as well. Where will the employees of those insurance cos go when there aren’t any left? Those approximately 850,000 people will be unemployed. Higher taxes equal less economic growth, less spending, lower salaries. This is really going to be a shock wave to the economy. How can anyone with a brain and even a little knowledge not see this? You wait and see, the Progressives will be the first to wail when the bottom really falls out, and it will if this passes.
elclynn on November 8, 2009 at 12:48 PM
I feel a great disturbance in the economy, it’s as if millions of wallets suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced…
To quote someone else who blogged this during the election…if you said it please take credit because it is too good to pass up…
Ltlgeneral64 on November 8, 2009 at 12:51 PM
The democrat majority house voted for it, so did the democrat majority senate – including 0bama.
But somehow TARP is ALL Bush’s fault.
“Blame is laid where it needs to be”, indeed.
Rebar on November 8, 2009 at 12:55 PM
AnninCa
He gave enough specifics for me to know I am dead set against it. Jail? That is some damned nerve. What kind of asshattery is that?
elclynn on November 8, 2009 at 12:57 PM
Gotcha, freedom died with car insurance.
Typhonsentra on November 8, 2009 at 1:19 PM
I agree with you 100%, Are you weapons cleaned and ready? mine are.
Viper1 on November 8, 2009 at 1:25 PM
You do understand that you don’t have to buy car insurance… right? Even if you own a car? You’re required by law to show fiscal capability of paying damages for car accidents while on PUBLIC roads.
Or, to use your vernacular –
Gotcha, everybody is required to purchase government provided car insurance… even if they don’t drive or own a car.
Skywise on November 8, 2009 at 1:29 PM
+1000 I’m 25.
And Lox, thank you so much for your encouraging and level-headed comments here. I’m still depressed, but less so than last night – I’d been at a party and the champagne might’ve made me a touch more dramatic than usual. No excuse, but there you have it.
I think I’ll take a day to nurse the depression with some pizza and ice cream, then get back to work tomorrow WITH A VENGEANCE.
Animator Girl on November 8, 2009 at 1:48 PM
I missed the law that says you HAVE to buy a car. Plus car insurance is state by state. Move to vermont if you don’t want to have to buy car insurance. You are not this stupid, are you?
BrideOfRove on November 8, 2009 at 2:07 PM
Being an optimist, here’s my scenario:
Pelosi was more than happy to lose control of the House in 2010 to get this passed. She is evidently okay with the blue dogs and others getting extreme heat from their constituents.
Now if the bill never becomes law, she did all of that damage for no good.
Let’s enjoy all of the grief the supporters of this are going to get when they go home for the Thanksgiving break.
darwin-t on November 8, 2009 at 2:12 PM
I’m 24 and I seriously think that it’s gonna up to us to halt the advance of tyranny in this country. It’s also going to be people our age who will have to front the money for these programs down the road. Of course, everyone will pay especially those who are retired thanks to the hyperinflation that is imminent. On a selfish note, I’m really down on the fact that I’m just starting my career and these politicians have basically just voted to limit my success and destroy the wealth I could create. This is only going to make me fight harder though.
SG1_Conservative on November 8, 2009 at 2:24 PM
Bishop,
Where can I fond the details? Which Lexinton Green? And the date?
davidk on November 8, 2009 at 3:15 PM
When the Marixists want to overthrow a people, they will do WHATEVER IT TAKES. Yes, they know they are destroying the nation. They don’t care. They will do whatever it takes.
Including shooting you.
davidk on November 8, 2009 at 3:21 PM
I think Bishop was being facetious. Google Lexington Green to learn how history repeats itself.
Seriously though, are we going to sit-back and take this shite, or all we going to storm the Capital and take back our country?
If there’s any group planning something, please let me know.
My kids futures depend on it.
JoeAvg on November 8, 2009 at 3:28 PM
To all the 20 something posters; Don’t count out all the older Americans on this board. Don’t forget many of us have already taken the government on and won our battles. I’m not letting the Gov do this to my children or grandchildren. I refuse to be depressed or down. You won’t be alone in this battle.
elclynn on November 8, 2009 at 4:04 PM
I MUST sign up for the selective service…no? I know I’m nitpicking here, but I’m compelled by the government to do things already.
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Hey, nimrod! If you don’t own a car, do you have to buy car insurance? yes or no?
If you don’t have a driver’s license, do you have to buy car insurance? Yes or no?
If you choose not do drive, do you have to buy car insurance, yes or no?
Does the Federal Government mandate every licensed driver that owns a car buy car insurance? Yes or no?
Fed45 on November 8, 2009 at 4:46 PM
I MUST sign up for the selective service…no? I know I’m nitpicking here, but I’m compelled by the government to do things already.
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Fed45 on November 8, 2009 at 4:48 PM
The prior point was about compulsion, not cost. I understand its not the same thing, but it does mean that the compulsory nature of this legislation on its own does not bring about the end of freedom! in America or any of the other apocalyptic scenarios that have been described…there must be something else.
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 4:52 PM
All Seixon can do is call people “dipshit.”
Alana on November 8, 2009 at 5:26 PM
THE FAT LADY SANG, JUST WISH SHE COULD KEEP A NOTE…OH WELL
Time to leave.
foxone on November 8, 2009 at 5:37 PM
Well, we were basically mandated to buy two car companies. /sarc
jimmy2shoes on November 8, 2009 at 5:53 PM
I’m sorry, I’m not discounting my older brothers and sisters, this is a political fight for all Americans. After all, the last generation gave us Reagan. I guess I was just getting defensive, trying to illustrate that not all 18-29 yo’s are mindless Obamatons ;). However, I will be the first to admit my generation seems to be the most misinformed. I had to go to a Young Diversity/Leadership Seminar for work a while back and the level of ignorance is astounding. The sad part is that most of these people have at the very minimum fiscally conservative principles, but they have all been brainwashed by pop culture into thinking that the Dems are the ones who are compassionate and fiscally responsible.
SG1_Conservative on November 8, 2009 at 6:19 PM
All we need is the young folks like you guys to “get it” like you guys do.
This is changeable in 2010 and the trend can be reversed back towards what this country was founded on but the young folks(and many other not young folks) need to be not so easily sold on dreams like they did in 2008 and to not be fooled by the next politician selling dreams.
skicougar on November 8, 2009 at 6:24 PM
I think the ‘brainwashing’ has less to do with making the dems look good than it has been about making the GOP look bad. There are lots of would-be libertarians in our ranks. There are also lots of budget hawks, even among those that count social justice as a core value.
The problem is that, for us, our coming of age politically occurred during the Bush presidency. Bush instilled in our collective consciousness the understanding that republicans talk a fiscally conservative game, but do not deliver. That they push unnecessary wars that cost billions, but cry over SCHIP. This, coupled with the very real distaste for social conservatism that permeates our ranks, leaves young voters pining for ways to justify their supporting the democrats.
Part of it is ignorance, or at least naivete, but alot of it has to do with the failed Bush presidency.
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 6:25 PM
Ernesto–
Yeh lots eh? Name 10. You said lots. Oh and please do provide some justification.
So both wars were not needed? Seems the Dems were on board with Afghanistan and there were a good number who supported Iraq.
The failed Bush presidency. Please do tell.
CWforFreedom on November 8, 2009 at 6:36 PM
Oy, I haven’t done any scientific polling of my age group, sorry if i was trying to be encouraging.
As for the wars, i should’ve said “an unnecessary war”. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry.
As for failed Bush presidency, by conservative standards, he sold you up the river. His only redeeming quality was tough on terror. But his domestic agenda crashed in flames when it wasnt expanding entitlements or federal control over things like education. And he SURELY didn’t deliver on any of the democrats wishlist…how was he NOT a failed president seems the more apt question.
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 6:40 PM
BTW,
There’s some, “this is DOA” when it hits the Senate comments here and by Senator Grahm-crackers.
You know you can’t trust a democrat to listen to the people and the GOP is still in the process of coming back around.
IMHO, this passing was a big loss. It allowed them to crack the door open on more control, power and taxes.
Closing that door before they go thru it and get something to Obama’s desk is going to be very, very hard.
Last spring, I had an offer on a 3100 square foot house; I dropped that offer and started searching for 2000 square feet houses when I found that cap and tax passed the house. I expect it’ll be coming eventually.
skicougar on November 8, 2009 at 6:40 PM
Ernesto–
Oh I thought you meant in Congress….as there are few it means squat. In reality you cannot be socially liberal in today’s terms and be a fiscal hawk. We cannot afford it.
Sooooooo sorry.
CWforFreedom on November 8, 2009 at 6:47 PM
Good move. I
don’t thinkknow Congress has not a clue as to the real ramifications of such bills as Cap and Tax or this Health care debacle.Good luck selling a big house if they pass that mess into law.
CWforFreedom on November 8, 2009 at 6:49 PM
Yes you can, it would just require levels of taxation more in line with Reagan’s America :D
Anyway, there are those on the liberal side of the spectrum that also don’t count social justice very high at all…but who want to see much more investment in things like R&D, or infrastructure. A willingness to invest federal dollars need not equal a yearning for entitlements.
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 6:56 PM
It’s unprecedented in American history to require all American adults to shop for a for-profit commodity. And the bite out of disposable income will have a ripple effect on lifestyles. It will divide us between those who comply and suffer hardship, and those who break the law and prosper thereby.
Chris_Balsz on November 8, 2009 at 6:57 PM
Education is compulsory (though I’m not sure if its federally mandated). Now, I know you can get free education from public schools…but were we to have a public option, would the arrangement be all that different?
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 7:02 PM
The point is not about compulsion. To be sure there are many laws we are compelled to comply with. Paying income taxes for one. The point about this legislation is that you are being compelled to give up property (your money) to purchase something you are may or may not freely choose to do. AND, in refusing to do so you will be punished by law for failing to give up your property in exchange for purchasing something against your will. What’s to stop them from forcing us to buy certain energy choices under penalty of law. Only buy GM automobiles? Only travel by Amtrak if we want to travel across country?
Fed45 on November 8, 2009 at 7:05 PM
Again, what the hell are you talking about? This is not an analogous example. I’m not compelled by the govt use my disposable income to BUY education for my children. Moreover, I can pull my kids out of public school under no penalty of law. I can choose to home school them, send them to private school. Nor to I have to pay to go to school for the rest of my life.
Fed45 on November 8, 2009 at 7:10 PM
Is “education” compulsory anywhere? Los Angeles has a dropout rate nearly 30%…I hadn’t heard that made kids liable to a round up. Since kids don’t work, it won’t cripple their livelihood to order them to school. It will hurt many Americans to have to buy something before they can pay down credit cards or other priorities of their choice. I see no parallel to education.
Chris_Balsz on November 8, 2009 at 7:11 PM
I thought liberals considered all wars unnecessary.
Fed45 on November 8, 2009 at 7:12 PM
Well, you wouldnt be compelled by the govt. to use your disposable income if you signed up for a public plan, and its not about school, its about education. Your child, according to law, HAS to receive education (at a cost to you should you so choose) for a defined amount of time. The major difference, it seems, is that you are not compelled to educate for life.
I know im streching it a bit, and im not a fan of the current legislation, but I wanna get to the logical difference between other compulsory requirements and the one being proposed. Is it the lifetime requirement? If not, then what?
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 7:15 PM
You must have me confused with growfins or simplesimon
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 7:16 PM
I totally agree with you. We can’t expect our parents and grandparents to keep fighting a the battle while we reap the rewards (to a great extent, I think that the Boomers’ sincere desire to shield us from hardship has created the entitlement generation, but that’s another rant entirely). I also agree with you that I take this very personally – I KNOW how these policies will affect me, and if/when I have kids…. I just can’t stand the thought that they’ll grow up with less liberty than I did.
And TALK about misinformed…. I was at a party last night with a bunch of fellow twenty-somethings, and they DIDN’T KNOW THE NAME OF THE VICE PRESIDENT. When I came home and read the news about the bill being passed, I thought “Of course it did: I just saw why.”
Thanks. What I can tell you is that I am not a natural skeptic, but the events of the last year have finally made me into one. I don’t feel that I can trust any politician at all. Still, though, I think we’ll need to find a way to balance healthy skepticism with youthful idealism: the importance of the latter in any revolution cannot be discounted. It’s tough to keep faith, though, without a lifetime of watching the political pendulum to help place things in perspective.
My husband and I were talking yesterday (he was born in 77, I was born in 84) about the fact that, in our lifetimes, we have only ever known Republicans to be the bad guys in pop culture. We assume it has always been that way, and it makes sense that our generation would largely believe it. For those of us taught to see Republicans as our allies, we’ve quickly come to realize that they are not dependable. And so the GOP, which is the best political tool we have available to us for the defense and promotion of conservatism, has multiplied its enemies and betrayed its friends. It is this that makes the path to victory so unclear.
THIS is why I’m going to be moving on to Reagan’s memoirs after I’ve finished Liberal Facism and The Road to Serfdom. I need some hope after all that doom and gloom.
Animator Girl on November 8, 2009 at 7:21 PM
CWforFreedom on November 8, 2009 at 7:27 PM
The rate was still higher under Reagan, but I was being facetious. You didn’t catch the smile afterwords?
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 7:28 PM
There is no FEDERAL law that requires mandatory school attendance. Nor is the any FEDERAL penalty imposed on a private citizen for failing to attend school up to a certain age. Penalties for failure to observe mandatory school attendance laws are very weak, also. Certainly not as onerous as the ones in this healthcare bill.
You need to come up with analogous Federal example. Not a state example.
Fed45 on November 8, 2009 at 7:29 PM
I suggest “The Reagan’s Diaries”, and “Reagan’s Secret War”
Fed45 on November 8, 2009 at 7:31 PM
The reality that you seem to be missing is that between the aging of America and the costs of illegal immigration there is no way we can afford social liberalism today. How much is this plan that Pelosi going to cost? What will happen when we have to raise taxes to pay for it? Honestly you know revenue will go down. Good luck as I stated earlier you and my kids will have to pay for it. At least my kids see it and I feel for them….you …no.
CWforFreedom on November 8, 2009 at 7:35 PM
Well then thats the best I can do. I tried, but it seems federally unprecedented…though it also seems pretty analogous to state precedents. But I got what I wanted, which was a logical, non-hyperbolic answer to just where the disconnect lies. Thanks.
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 7:36 PM
I’m perfectly aware of all that, even though there are always avenues to change legislation should it prove immediately catastrophic. I’ve made no apologies for social liberalism or entitlements here…i’ve just been trying to get at where the actual letter of the law becomes unprecedented. Good luck to you and your kids
ernesto on November 8, 2009 at 7:38 PM
Fair enough. State precedents are irrelevant. If a state wanted to come up with this bill, that would be perfectly fine and far less constitutionally challengable thanks to the 10th Amendment. Not saying it would pass Constitutional muster, but it would certainly be well within their rights to try.
Fed45 on November 8, 2009 at 7:40 PM
After a long day of drinking martinis and eating very unhealthily, I have come up with the ansewr to our problems.
I’m going to buy Haiti, and you’re all welcome to come down. Liberals are sent to work in the sugar cane fields, and when King Me feels that they ahve learned the meaning of work, then I will let them take half days on Sundays.
I’ll keep you guys posted, until then I think I have a drink around the house I have to find before my girlfriend dumps it out on me and makes me sleep on the couch.
Fishy.Gov on November 8, 2009 at 7:47 PM
The original “Yes We Can” speech. We must fight so that these words will live on…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqAgmrSimx4&feature=related
lovingmyUSA on November 8, 2009 at 7:50 PM
Posting nothing. Comment count is 3666……getting rid of that!!!:)
Coastal Paradise on November 8, 2009 at 7:56 PM
I feel sorry for those who are under the age of 25, they’re going to be paying for this for the rest of their lives. Their hopes on prosperity are dimming. I can only pray for my children and teach them the best that I can.
ted c on November 8, 2009 at 7:58 PM
Dude, I’ve read every post on this thread and I find this one the most disturbing. Not because I think you’re some finger pointing wack-job, but because I agree with you.
Still, ya never know, so I’ll continue adding to the guns and ammo cache just in case the house does comes crashing down.
Gang-of-One on November 8, 2009 at 8:02 PM
part of me feels that they (18-25yo) are going to have to reap what they sowed by voting for this is maroon in Nov …
cmsinaz on November 8, 2009 at 8:06 PM
Thanks. :)
Yes, but remember, not all of us did. And for the ones who did…. well, you really don’t want to hear my rant about most of my friends’ parents, and how the Boomers well-intentioned spoiling and sheltering of their children has made my generation into the clueless monster that it often is. You really don’t – it would piss off a lot of nice parents on here.
Obama is the living embodiment and result of decades of spoiled children.
Animator Girl on November 8, 2009 at 8:15 PM
understand that not all of you did, I know there are some good young folks out there fighting the good fight…that’s why I say ‘part of me’, those that did vote for him should bare some responsibility for their vote, however I don’t think they know the word responsibility…
cmsinaz on November 8, 2009 at 8:24 PM
probably right
Animator Girl on November 8, 2009 at 8:39 PM
Yes you will, for someone else.
I don’t have any children, but I’ve been paying taxes, high taxes, all my life, and will pay the rest of my life, to educate someone else’ kid.
I see first hand every day what kind of job the government schools have done. I’ve been ripped off.
davidk on November 8, 2009 at 8:55 PM
But for how long? Every time the dhimmicRATS do something stupidly I clean my guns and count my ammo.
I have very clean weapons.
davidk on November 8, 2009 at 8:58 PM
Dump Cao Now
pabarge on November 8, 2009 at 9:27 PM
Sg1conservative @ 6:19
My 16 year old grandson wanted McCain to win. Obama scares him. In class debates he stood his ground and was one of two who got the drift. My 9 year old grandson sent a letter to Obama stating higher taxes will hurt us. I’m sure there are many others with more sense then stars in their eyes. Lots of younger people are beginning to see what the Health bill and cap and trade will do to them. Mostly you have to understand we can win this fight if we stand together as free men and women. They will back down. Never give up, never surrender.
elclynn on November 8, 2009 at 10:11 PM
Exactly.
I can always get liberals to admit its going to be more costly and the results might not be as good as a private entity handling almost any issue, but they are always willing to give it up to the govt as the idea that private industry is out to hold down or harm the little guy and that phiolosphy runs real deep.
Ironically, cap and trade and universal healthcare will do more to hold down and harm the little guy than most likely everything corporations have done since the existence of the U.S.
skicougar on November 8, 2009 at 10:34 PM
The majority of those are state and local taxes….primarily property taxes. Very little are Federal taxes. So, again, the analogy is flawed.
And the point could be made that society benefits from having public schools. A least moreso than forcing citizens to buy health insurance they may not want.
Fed45 on November 9, 2009 at 12:28 AM
Idiot in chief.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w49/kimobean/image001.jpg
ray on November 9, 2009 at 12:38 AM
For all those supporting this bill–and Government Health Care in general–I want to personally thank you for killing me.
No exaggeration, no “fuzzy math”; for the cost of medical equipment, diagnostics, and mediations that require me to live day to day, month to month, year to year, that cost will be deemed too high. My insulin will be cut in third. The next major illness I receive, God forbid, I will need to wait weeks to months to see a doctor…which is a literal death sentence. And if my amount of medications I need increases–again–my doctors will need to deal with weeks and weeks of redtape (rather than faxing in a simple prescription into my insurance company).
So, again, for those who weep for those who supposedly cannot pay for their medical care, I want to thank you for killing those same people, and many more, like me. You’ve just made a bad problem much, much worse.
CatsGodot on November 9, 2009 at 1:53 AM
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