I will stick with grace & never go back.

kg598301 on November 4, 2009 at 6:18 PM

I really don’t wanna comment here — it’s just that you’re so smug. We are saved by Grace, NOT works, but if your lifestyle doesn’t reflect what you profess. Your faith is not real. It is dead. It is not faith at all. The only one’s who are going to heaven are true born again, and repentant Christian’s who are living for Jesus. That is the truth, not the “feel good” evangelism you’re preaching.

I don’t consider myself at war here,

Well, you are at war — at war with God — and you don’t even know it. You’ve repeatedly called Him a liar in this thread by claiming that He doesnt condemn abortion and the Scriptures are silent on it! The Bible says, “children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward” (Psalm 127:3). How arrogant can you be! It’s sickening to watch.

when we all meet in Heaven someday we will see this for what it was – bullcrap – and probably have a good laugh about it all.

I hope to see you in heaven. I really do. I hope you you get saved if you’re not already. That’s why I’m reminding you that there is no swearing allowed in heaven. Now repent, “go, and sin no more” (John 8:11). Refrain from sin, as Christ has commanded.

Wrong but redeemed, that’s what we believe in.

Yes I do. Absolutely, & that goes for all of us. Thanks again!

kg598301 on November 4, 2009 at 6:18 PM

Well, to be honest I didn’t find you to be more contentious one in the argument. My main point was to chime in with the results of my quantitative study on the word “repentance” in the NT, and put up some obstacles to dogmatic objections to it, and some grounding concepts to those objections.

In fact, I’m very much of the grace angle. When Paul answers the question of sinning more so that grace would abound, he does not say, “No because you would then have no grace!” He accepts the idea that grace covers sin, in that he does not contest that part of it, but instead wants to reorient the idea of what magnifies grace–it is the life changed by grace to obedience to God.

However, 1) this seems to be a moot point because the lady clearly appears to be repenting in some fashion, and 2) although I don’t believe that everybody who has an abortion is condemned to hell, the promotion of abortion as “anybody’s choice” couldn’t be less Biblical. First of all we belong not to ourselves, but each to each other–now I know that there are legalists and dogmatists that want to abuse that, but that is where solid knowledge of Paul’s writings helps. Paul will more than bail one out against people who exercise a spirit of judgment.

Second of all, Jesus gave up much to come and save us. Thinking of how we can avoid burdens that we’ve gotten ourselves into by irresponsible choices, is not having “the mind of Christ”. Thinking that we have a right to avoid such burdens may be somewhat sufferable in our civic forum, but it is not having the “mind of Christ”. That is the goal. Propagating these ideas, even as “grace”, I find wrong for a Christian. Making a person into a penalty is a humongous de-facto judgment on people. And if we can assent to that even in theory for “grace” we have nodded to a hellish reversal of the idea of grace.

Here, I am only laying out the principles I find with the gravity I think they deserve. But I think that if we make human beings into “inconveniences” and “punishment” that we are inverting grace for the benefit of “grace”. Grace is not the idea that you are right in whatever you think, it is the idea that you can be forgiven whatever your sin. Now, it is ultimately up to God to judge what is sin, but if we get too skeptical, no amount of judging can be properly rebuked by Jesus’ rejoinder against judging, less we judge and rebuke those who judge (too much and with too much finality). If we pretend to understand this concept so to curtail needless judgmental attitudes which make us not a witness to God’s grace, but his judgment (which has its place, mind you) and so that we can pronounce it “undesirable” it is necessary that we must be able to ascertain some of the principles of God–and indeed we have the Holy Spirit as guide.

It is by those principles I think that even saying the words “punishing with a baby” is a hellish inversion of the values of God lays forth by his grace. And I can say that without any final implication about the person who says it–even all blasphemies against God can be forgiven man (except one) but man becomes redeemed of something wrong.

Wrong but redeemed, that’s what we believe in.

I will stick with grace & never go back. I don’t consider myself at war here, in fact when we all meet in Heaven someday we will see this for what it was- bullcrap- and probably have a good laugh about it all. And there will no doubt be some surprises in Heaven. God has an excellent sense of humor!

The Body of Christ is under enough attack these days without us shooting each other down, I believe.

You make some very good points about witnessing & the points are taken here. Thanks & have a great night!

However, used so close to those words, there is a question of what repentance is for. Are we repenting from an attitude that would keep us from being baptized? Are we repenting from an attitude that would keep us from being saved? There are also a bunch of scriptures that are subordinated by various doctrines, Jesus says that in believing in him that you have passed “from death to life”. That I don’t vacillate between death and life constantly (even though I John asserts that if we don’t admit we sin, we call God a liar) is one of the main differences I have with the Catholic church.

As well, I recognize that it is the history of the church that people will always feel that they have been deputized by Christ to be a separator of sheep from goats or tares from wheat. The the Bible is sufficient for our role under God. No part of the threshing, no part of the judging is properly our role under scripture.

Our role is witness to his grace. How appropriate that an abuser of God’s grace is a poor witness, and that a person who testifies to God’s grace with gratitude shown in their lives, is a good witness. God will dole out his grace to these people according to his wisdom. Remember that Jesus testifies that he 1) does not wish to judge, and 2) does not know the hour of judgment–because it is not his to know. That would give you an insight onto how much the Bible is a handbook for witnessing and how much it is a comprehensive manual to the wisdom of God–including roles you’re not meant to fulfill.

Now, I know that perpetually dogmatic can have all sorts of stuff against this. That I did not construe the Bible according to their tradition, and as such I am wrong. My only rejoinder is to attempt to be a witness to God’s grace as I see it, and respectfully disagree and show not a spirit of quarreling (because quarreling comes from our fleshly desires–as Paul identifies–even among Christians, because he never disowned those he castigated for quarreling.) but of grace.

‘Cause as you know, I’m just like your relative.

kg598301 on November 4, 2009 at 8:04 AM

Not my post, but certainly my sentiment. I’m glad to know that this exchange galls you enough so that you worry at it like an open wound. Now, once you think past your anger and realize the truth of my words, you’ll feel better and be able to build a true relationship with the real God, not a false relationship with a god you’ve built out of whole cloth.

Methinks you only read as far as necessary to find what you want and quit, instead of going the for the full meal deal. To paraphrase that Blue fish: “Just keep studying, Just keep studying… (till you reach the end)”

You thinks wrong. Again.

Well hey I gotta run, I have a busy day. I have some shoplifting to do, then I need to knock off a liquor store, after that if I have time I’ll embezzle for a bit. Then I’ll repent so I can feel good about myself again. ‘Cause as you know, I’m just like your relative.

AH_C on November 3, 2009 at 10:11 PM

Well said.

Abby Johnson, a Planned Parenthood director at a Bryan, Texas facility, watched an ultrasound and handed in her resignation.

Ms. Johnson had worked at the clinic for 8 years and served as the director for 2 years. Accord ……

@ apacalyps, good work!

AH_C on November 3, 2009 at 10:18 PM

Same to you.

@ apacalyps, good work!

AH_C on November 3, 2009 at 10:18 PM

You too!

The bible says, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”.
[SNIP]
That is why our sins never condemn us to hell- the only sin that does is the sin of unbelief.
[SNIP]

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 3:06 PM

The verse you’re referring to is Acts 16:31 and was spoken by Paul. If you continue the saga of Paul’s missionary journey, you come to Acts 20:21 (see AH_C on November 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM.

Do those two verses contradict each other? Not in the slightest. The 1st declares the essence of salvation – the baby’s milk version of the Good News. The second summarizes the fundamental doctrine – the adult’s meat.

As Paul explains thusly:
1Co 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

Salvation, I am sure of. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 7:15 PM

Conflating faith v works and wind up boasting of your faith, ironically with license to sin. Tsk, tsk.

Again what you dished out was the Gospel-lite version from Paul in his preamble, before he delves into the Led-Gospel version in the exact same Book:
Eph 4:7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. (UNDESERVED)
[SNIP]
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, (PURPOSE)
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,(MEAT)
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (MILK)
[SNIP]
Eph 4:22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, (REPENT)
[SNIP]
Eph 4:27 and give no opportunity to the devil. (FIGHT, i.e. against abortion)
Eph 4:28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.(REDEMPTION)

Once more, heeeeere’s Paul:James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? Answer: NO!

And in conclusion, Paul sez:2Ti 1:13 Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

IOW, take in the entirety of his words, not the bits and pieces that sedates the guilt.

Methinks you only read as far as necessary to find what you want and quit, instead of going the for the full meal deal. To paraphrase that Blue fish: “Just keep studying, Just keep studying… (till you reach the end)”

I have no doubt after reading this thread as to why Allah would choose atheism over Christianity.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 9:01 PM

Yeah, that’s the reason why men reject God. The problem with your statement is that it’s wrong – again. The Bible says no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. Jesus said, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44). You have a habit of making fictitious or misleading statements that contradict the Bible.

it is obvious to me from your comments that you believe you have to add something to what God has already accomplished to be in His good graces

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 8:06 PM

That is a bold-faced lie.

Either salvation is free or it isn’t.

Stop lying. I said salvation if FREE. “SALVATION IS FREE!” Got it?

God says we trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation. Period.

You don’t seem to understand what repent means. It means turn from your sin towards God. Salvation is free for all men, but all must repent (that is, change their minds) concerning the true God and their responsibilty before Him. The Bible says, “(God) commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness” (Acts 17:30-31). God commands you to turn from your sins because He doesn’t want to give you justice. He doesn’t want you to end up in hell. And He can forgive you because of what Jesus did. If you repent, turn from all sin, and put your trust in Jesus, God says I’ll forgive you every sin you’ve ever commited and grant you everlasting life.

Grace rules. Selah.

I’m sorry apac, I won’t be the one to make your day today. :(

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 7:15 PM

You’re not doing me any favours by going against God on abortion.

I have seen all of those verses, & I have studied them. We just disagree on what they mean, is all.

No, no. You don’t want the truth. It’s that simple. The Bible is clear. YOU SHALL NOT KILL! It’s written on your heart! You have too much pride and won’t admit when you are wrong.

Life is very much a miraculous gift from God, I am just being honest as I have been from the beginning by saying I don’t know for sure from the scriptures exactly when life in the soul begins.

NO! That’s not what you said. You’re mind was made up! I showed you Bible verses addressing abortion (murder) and you said, “(abortion) is a decision a woman has to make in her own conscience, between her and God and her doctor,” and you said, “Nowhere in Scripture have I read where He addresses the issue of abortion” and “I’d like to hear the verse that says a woman goes to hell for an abortion.” Then you said, “Even if (God) did specifically say abortion was murder (which I’ve never seen in Scripture, for the umpteenth time!) he would not condemn a woman to hell for it.” That’s what you said! So STOP LYING and telling me now, “I am just being honest ..I don’t know for sure from the scriptures exactly when life in the soul begins.” You’re mind was already made up!

I mean, you even said if it could be proven that God opposed abortion, that the murderer wouldn’t go to hell!? How can make such a bold statement like that — I mean, these are just nutty declarations. I’m done talking with you. I’m not trying to be rude, but you’re starting to lie, and this has become a waste of my time. Talking with folks you is like banging your head against a wall. It doesn’t matter how much evidence you show them, they don’t wanna see it. Like this, here is an interesting passage telling us John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb, indicating personhood, but you won’t admit that aborting him would be murder:

“For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.” Luke 1:15

So if you don’t mind I’d rather not talk to you and your advocating the murder of children. You know this is wrong. It doesn’t matter what you believe. You have to face God on Judgment day. If somebody has taken the life of a child — what you do is you can’t acknowledge that it is murder. Furthermore, you’re calling God a liar. It’s really sickening. Your pride and disrespect for God has show through in this debate. You have exposed yourself by making certain comments that a believer will not make. I have a feeling that you are a phony. Good luck. You’re gonna need it.

Lol, as a fellow fallible human being I totally understand where you are coming from- I have had some of the same thoughts concerning child molesters. Thank God we are not God & that through His saving work we are forgiven for our iniquities as well. We all fall short.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM

Are you sure about that?
Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
[SNIP]
Mat 18:5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!
[SNIP]
Mat 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of Man came to save the lost.
[SNIP]
Mat 18:14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “

Abby Jones was blessed in that she had the opportunity to repent of her evil, while able to make a difference. Those of “faith” that do not turn away from the business of murder may not be as fortunate. May God continue to bless her as she fights the fight against the evil she knows so well.

I’m trying to be nice ;-)

I know you are trying to be nice, it is obvious to me from your comments that you believe you have to add something to what God has already accomplished to be in His good graces, maybe that includes “being nice”. No, it’s not a matter of wording. We are talking about Grace vs. Legalism.

to receive that free gift of salvation we must repent and do what God says.

That doesn’t sound like a free gift to me, it sounds like we have to earn it. Either salvation is free or it isn’t. God says we trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation. Period.

“and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

I hope you will at some point. Grace & Peace, Kathy

Grace & Peace, Kathy

We have a very fundamental difference in our theological beliefs which will never be resolved here- I say faith alone & you say repentance. Arguing about that is a waste of time, in my opinion. It is a debate that has gone on for thousands of years.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 8:08 AM

Ahhh. That’s the nut of it, eh? A waste of time, never mind 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. As I said before, your understanding of the Bible is pretty shallow.

As for faith vs repent, the KJV lists 112 instances of “repent”, most of which deal with the act of turning away or changing one’s way. 362 instances of faith, most of which deal with ‘keeping the faith’ and shunning sin. Indeed, you can have faith without repentance, but then it only means the faith is shallow and lukewarm (something icky that God spews out). Jesus in his sermons often spoke first of repentance followed by faith as being inextricably linked to salvation.

To whit, the 1st of the only two verses where the two appear together as a phrase, and not merely by context within passages: “Act 20:21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.” Doesn’t get any clearer than that — end of debate!

I don’t believe the Bible says anything about abortion and I don’t believe life is a gift from God.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 6:38 PM

Doesn’t make any difference what you believe. If I don’t believe in a judge and he sentences me to prison it doesn’t matter if I don’t believe in the judge. I’d still go to prison. And you’re gonna stand before the God you don’t believe in. I recommend that you prepare for that day.

I think unwanted children are punishmements. Obama was right.

Well, that is confusion right there. What a poor, tormented, soul.

Since we all sin as long as we are alive, God has graciously given us the function of confession (you are calling it repentence), the ability to “change our mind”, confess our sins & be restored with God.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 3:06 PM

I agree with what you said here. And with the part of your message I ommitted for the sake of brevity. What I don’t agree with was when you said this, “We have a very fundamental difference in our theological beliefs which will never be resolved here – I say faith alone & you say repentance.” I’m hoping it’s just a matter of wording things differently because it’s absolutely true that we are saved by GRACE ONLY, but to receive that free gift of salvation we must repent and do what God says. It’s not enough to just believe in God. Like I said earlier, you read the Bible it says, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble” (James 2:19). The demons believe in God. Satan believes in God. Anyone can believe in God. You have drunks in nightclubs holding a beer in hand who’ll tell you, “I believe in God,” or “I believe in Jesus,” or, “Yeah, I prayed a prayer and I’m goin’ to heaven.” Problem is, there is no evidence of a true conversion. With true salvation comes genuine repentance and real life change. You have to do what God says. Jesus Himself said, “Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).

I encourage you to start using the word “repentance.” The Bible does repeatedly. This truth is so important because there are literally millions who name the name of Christ but because they don’t see their sin in it true light, they continue to sin and never find a place of Biblical repentance. These are called false converts and they are in BIG TROUBLE on Judgment day when they stand before a holy and righteous God. So please, take this into consideration. Thank you.

I appreciate your being respectful here apac, thank you.

I’m trying to be nice ;-)

It would really make my day if you said, “Hey, apacalyps. I gotta say I missed those verses. Praise God! Thanks for bringing them to my attention! I’m gonna have to re-think my position on this because I now see that life is a gift created by God, not to be taken away by abortion.”

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 6:26 PM

I’m sorry apac, I won’t be the one to make your day today. :(

I have seen all of those verses, & I have studied them. We just disagree on what they mean, is all. God has formed everything in the universe from nothing, of course He forms us in the womb as well.

I have heard very sound theological arguments that God imparts life at birth- very sound, based on the original languages. A fetus may emerge from the womb & then receive the breath of life from God, at which time he cries his lungs out. Or he may be stillborn or a blue baby and not survive birth. I have carried & given birth to a son who did receive life, thank God. I do believe in the sanctity of life & think abortion is a sad & terrible option so I won’t join the party & cast stones at any woman who makes that decision. (It’s way too late here to be the first one to cast the first stone anyway, I am sad to say.)

Is it a sin? If it is the solution is always the same (1 John 1:9 for us as believers) & no woman will go to hell for that just as we won’t go to hell for our sins, if we believe in Jesus Christ & His saving work.

Life is very much a miraculous gift from God, I am just being honest as I have been from the beginning by saying I don’t know for sure from the scriptures exactly when life in the soul begins.

Salvation, I am sure of. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”