Planned Parenthood director quits after watching abortion ultrasound

posted at 3:00 pm on November 2, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

After eight years working at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Bryan, Texas, including two years as its director, Abby Johnson suddenly decided that she could no longer participate in abortions. What pushed Johnson out was both an ultrasound of an abortion and a renewed emphasis on the cash-generating business in the failing economy. After being told to deemphasize prevention and market for abortions, Johnson finally had enough:

According to Johnson, the non-profit was struggling under the weight of a tough economy, and changing it’s business model from one that pushed prevention, to one that focused on abortion.

“It seemed like maybe that’s not what a lot of people were believing any more because that’s not where the money was. The money wasn’t in family planning, the money wasn’t in prevention, the money was in abortion and so I had a problem with that,” said Johnson.

Johnson said she was told to bring in more women who wanted abortions, something the Episcopalian church goer recently became convicted about. …

Johnson now supports the Coalition For Life, the pro-life group with a building down the street from Planned Parenthood. Coalition volunteers can regularly be seen praying on the sidewalk in front of Planned Parenthood. Johnson has been meeting with the coalition’s executive director, Shawn Carney, and has prayed with volunteers outside Planned Parenthood.

The television station has video of Johnson’s interview at the link, so be sure to watch it.

What was the reaction of Planned Parenthood?  They sued Johnson and the Coalition for Life and filed restraining orders against both.  They claim that Johnson and the CFL wanted to breach the confidentiality of their clients, but nothing in the KBTX report indicates that Johnson had any such intention.  In fact, Johnson was unaware of the suit when KBTX’s report went to air last night.

It doesn’t surprise me to see Planned Parenthood pressure its offices to push abortions harder.  That’s their core business, after all, and with less money flowing into the abortion mills, they need to market it more aggressively.  It does remove the veneer of “community service” that PP claims while defending themselves, however.  They’re in the mass-production abortion business, plain and simple, which Johnson finally discovered.


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The most important thing you (kg598301) overlooked is that both men REPENTED. It was that repentance that saved them from hell. You need to read the Bible deeper and not just skim the highlights.

AH_C on November 2, 2009 at 10:56 PM

Exactly. I was going to get to repentance with kg598301, but I was weeding through some other things he/she said first. The Bible says, “All liars, will have their part in the lake of fire.” No blasphemer will enter God’s kingdom. No adulterer will enter God’s kingdom. Now God did something wonderful for us so we wouldn’t have to go to hell. Jesus died on the cross for us, but the Bible says just asking God for forgiveness won’t help you. You’ve gotta repent; turn from your sins and put your trust in Jesus Christ. You just can’t say, “Oh, I believe in God,” or, “I believe in Jesus,” and continue sinning knowing it. Those are false converts or pretenders.

apacalyps on November 2, 2009 at 11:17 PM

NoLeftTurn on November 2, 2009 at 11:10 PM

^10. I have friends/family that had abortions, not one of them was the better for it. It comes with a hidden price, depression, guilt are but two emotional scars. And more than anything, they all wish they could turn back the clock to a time before conception. The only way they can have spiritual healing is if they look to God and repent.

AH_C on November 2, 2009 at 11:22 PM

apacalyps on November 2, 2009 at 11:17 PM

Amen.

AH_C on November 2, 2009 at 11:26 PM

hawkdriver on November 2, 2009 at 9:16 PM

The feeling’s mutual, my dear. Glad to see your handle after last week.

baldilocks on November 2, 2009 at 11:32 PM

–Have you ever asked a bunch of Jews whether they agree with your equating their dead relatives with aborting fetuses? My guess is that many disagree with your interpretation.

Jimbo3 on November 2, 2009 at 6:24 PM

I did once have a Jew who is pro-abortion tell me he was upset when I equated the two. I told him sometimes the truth hurts, and he needs to live with it. After all, he who has the power to confer humanity or inhumanity to a person carries the same power a Nazi once did, or a slaveholder for that matter.

unclesmrgol on November 2, 2009 at 11:43 PM

then you have to say that the Catholic Church is seriously wrong when you consider that the Catholic Church has had roughly 3000 instances over 50 years in at least three countries, where priests did rape children and then the Catholic Church covered up the crimes (and, in some cases, tried to make the children think they were somehow partially to blame).

Jimbo3 on November 2, 2009 at 3:59 PM

Another reason to detest homosexuals.

unclesmrgol on November 2, 2009 at 11:46 PM

–I have. The fetus can’t feel pain at 12 weeks and doesn’t have a working brain. It’s likely an involuntary reaction.

Jimbo3 on November 2, 2009 at 4:00 PM

They do have brains — working brains.

As to whether they can feel pain is the ultimate experiment, isn’t it. And a fetus writhing as he’s aborted indicates he is feeling something. Perhaps pleasure?

unclesmrgol on November 2, 2009 at 11:57 PM

Another reason to detest homosexuals.

unclesmrgol on November 2, 2009 at 11:46 PM

The issue for the RCC was more that children were molested and that the abuse was covered up.

dedalus on November 3, 2009 at 12:05 AM

The issue for the RCC was more that children were molested and that the abuse was covered up.

dedalus on November 3, 2009 at 12:05 AM

No, the issue was homosexual priests abusing their power. In many cases, the priests were treated for pedophilia, which the AMA (you know, the guys who thought homosexuality was a disease, but now think it’s normal?) had stated was treatable. The Church spend hundreds of thousands of dollars treating priests who were pronounced cured, and then went back into ministry to reoffend.

As for covering up, I do think it occurred in many (but not all) situations. When something is told to you under seal of confession, you are not allowed to divulge it unless you believe that the person is a danger either to himself or to others. The process of reconciliation is strongly weighted in terms of privacy.

The Church has learned — I’m paying quite a bit every Sunday to “make whole” (as whole as they can be made) the victims. Neither priests nor any other adult are allowed to be alone with kids in a closed room. We are all reminded as CCD teachers that we must not only report alleged wrongdoing (or something we witness) to the Diocese, but also to the police.

But lest it be forgot — the perps were homosexuals.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 12:33 AM

Wow this conversation took a wild swing. What do abortion and child molesters have in common and why would anyone defend either?

I assume someone is saying that abortion isn’t murder because some priests molested some kids.

Yeah that makes no sense.

Abortion is deplorable. Child molestation is deplorable. Let’s get our society to reject both. And let’s not have public money going to encourage either.

petunia on November 3, 2009 at 1:02 AM

Stop trying to make me laugh. I’m still going to vote for Kay Hutchinson.

Jimbo3 on November 2, 2009 at 5:05 PM

Crossover vote?

Johan Klaus on November 3, 2009 at 1:40 AM

let’s see…make X illegal.

people, for whatever reason, want or need X

this creates a black market for X.

which raises the cost and danger of X.

we spend a lot of money trying to fight the black market of X.

after a while, we realize that we’re spending a whole bunch of money, and not really getting anywhere. because…

legislating morality(beyond basic rights)DOESN’T WORK.

this is a tried and true equation. we’ve done it with many things over time and come up with the same results, with whatever thing it’s tried with.

alcohol. drugs. abortion. prostitution. sex toys. pornography. contraceptives. cigarettes. guns. clowns.

(yes, clowns. I’d ban clowns if I thought it would do any good. but that’s me)

pick anything you don’t like, the pattern is the same.

don’t like any of the above? if whatever religion you follow tells you not to do these things..DON’T DO THEM.
tax them like crazy. restrict where and when you can do these things. ban the spending of public money on them. but the moment you BAN them outright, we’re back into the above formula. and that’s a dead end.

remind me..what is is it called when you do the same thing over and over again, and expect a different result?

warhorse_03826 on November 3, 2009 at 1:50 AM

remind me..what is is it called when you do the same thing over and over again, and expect a different result?

warhorse_03826 on November 3, 2009 at 1:50 AM

Let’s take it to the next level — if there’s a law and enough people break it (say running red lights or drunk driving), then there’s something wrong with those laws and we ought to get rid of them.

Ditto for murder. People kill people all the time, and we spend so much time trying to find the murderers. Why bother?

Yah, it’s so stupid to legislate morality, isn’t it?

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 2:06 AM

I hope this woman can now find a way to help innocent human life instead of snuffing it out.

Dollayo on November 3, 2009 at 3:14 AM

remind me..what is is it called when you do the same thing over and over again, and expect a different result?

warhorse_03826 on November 3, 2009 at 1:50 AM

Then I take it your for legalizing minor-sex-trafficking, because otherwise it creates a black market for that good, right?

There was an Indian lady on Fox News who said that since India had legalized prostitution of adult women, they’d seen a big jump in underage sex trafficking. Seems like the way to resolve this is some good ol’ fashioned libertarianism: legalize sex with minors. Done.

At least you don’t have that pesky “black market” thing mucking up the scenery! You’re feeding an appetite!! In many cases it does not just want X-and-nothing-more, but once it gets a taste of X, it wants Y for variety, and Z because it’s “edgy and dangerous”.

Axeman on November 3, 2009 at 3:31 AM

And the truth shall set you free.

YoungAmerican on November 3, 2009 at 3:48 AM

OK, is it just me or have we found an actual example of what Obama claims is the standard operating procedure of doctors who want to cut off feet and pull out tonsils because that is where the money is.

Unfortunately for BO, it happens to be in the abortion business. Hmmm… I wonder if he’ll make a point of saying something about it.

archer52 on November 3, 2009 at 4:10 AM

I have long believed that watching the murder (what else can truthful people call it?) would stop abortion immediately – not all, evil will continue to exist,but a humane society will stop treating humans like unwanted street dogs.

Obama has extended the slaughter of innocents to those not wanted, but who escape the abortionist horror chamber and are fully born, based upon the diabolically clever Harvard law School conceived mantra of “intent.” Forget that fetal tissue lie, he says implicitely; forget all those arguments of when life begins; forget all that talk and Supreme Court folly of, “It’s my body and I can do what I want with it; we don’t need those lies anymore, now have a legal word to continue to destroy innocent life and feel good about it. How soon before we morph into green Nazis and save the planet by killing off the excess; the “less than human” who will use to much of our valuable resources and spew poisonious gases into our precious environment? Think not? Then please demand that a live abortion be required viewing in every elementary school sex ed class in the nation -after all it’s just so much fetal tissue – a mere health care issue.

Don L on November 3, 2009 at 5:44 AM

Abortion is wrong because no one can define when life begins. Most people would say that a child who is actually born is a human. However … what about 10 minutes prior to being born? Is that child less human? And if you determine that that child is human then at what point in it’s development did it become human? No one can answer the question – Obama says it’s “Above” his “paygrade”.

If that’s the case – he should not be forcing me to pay for abortions and stem cell research – period.

And also – what about the separation of church and state? Many churches have religious doctrine on when exactly life begins. Why the atheistic doctrine of Pro-Abortion being forced on them? And make no mistake – the members of these churches are already paying for abortions overseas and for stem cell research here in the states.

Roe needs to be overturned. If there are any SS Gestapo states that wish to have them let them decide for themselves to have it.

I just don’t get this whole argument. What’s wrong with allowing the states to decide? Let women who want abortions go to states where they have them – what’s wrong with that? My God – you can use three or four methods for Birth Control and get 100 percent protection – so unwanted pregnancy is really a fault of the individual.

Why are we allowing people to not answer for the consequences of their decisions while simultaneously forcing society to accept a practice that most of us abhor?

How does that work? Doesn’t the majority rule anymore?

HondaV65 on November 3, 2009 at 5:58 AM

Now pray, repent and get back full time to church. I saw a video of an abortion and believe me, it leaves a mark on you.

Now these bastards suing her, now is when all pro-life must unite and b

ProudPalinFan on November 3, 2009 at 6:17 AM

sorry, early in the am….

Now these bastards suing her, now is when all the pro-life organizations must unite and BACK HER UP!

ProudPalinFan on November 3, 2009 at 6:18 AM

No, the issue was homosexual priests abusing their power. In many cases, the priests were treated for pedophilia, which the AMA (you know, the guys who thought homosexuality was a disease, but now think it’s normal?) had stated was treatable. The Church spend hundreds of thousands of dollars treating priests who were pronounced cured, and then went back into ministry to reoffend.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 12:33 AM

About 80% of the victims were boys. As with the other 20% that were girls, the criminal problem was the age not the gender. If the RCC wants to turn away homosexual men from ordination (as it is now doing) then it should be allowed to.

dedalus on November 3, 2009 at 8:03 AM

AH_C on November 2, 2009 at 10:56 PM

We have a very fundamental difference in our theological beliefs which will never be resolved here- I say faith alone & you say repentance. Arguing about that is a waste of time, in my opinion. It is a debate that has gone on for thousands of years.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 8:08 AM

Abortion is wrong because no one can define when life begins.

HondaV65 on November 3, 2009 at 5:58 AM

I can. Life begins at conception…period.

Trafalgar on November 3, 2009 at 8:09 AM

Abortion is wrong because no one can define when life begins.

HondaV65 on November 3, 2009 at 5:58 AM

I can. Life begins at conception…period.

Trafalgar on November 3, 2009 at 8:09 AM

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. That’s the beauty of a free country.

BTW — the sperm and ovum that exist prior to your chosen moment are also alive. Really. Life does not come from death, but from life in another form. Is every sperm sacred?

zenscreamer on November 3, 2009 at 8:15 AM

kg598301 on November 2, 2009 at 8:49 PM

I fully understand. God is a much better person than I am.
If I was God they’d all be dying from a horrible lingering death followed by the worst depths of hell. God is a great guy. He’s in the forgiveness business. I’m not.

Jeff from WI on November 2, 2009 at 9:01 PM

Lol, as a fellow fallible human being I totally understand where you are coming from- I have had some of the same thoughts concerning child molesters. Thank God we are not God & that through His saving work we are forgiven for our iniquities as well. We all fall short.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM

blockquote>Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. That’s the beauty of a free country.

BTW — the sperm and ovum that exist prior to your chosen moment are also alive. Really. Life does not come from death, but from life in another form. Is every sperm sacred?

zenscreamer on November 3, 2009 at 8:15 AM

Not an opinion, a fact. The sperm and the ovum are indeed “alive”; however, they are not human life until a single sperm fertilizes a single ovum at conception and a human life begins.

Of course not all sperm and all eggs are sacred. Women are born with between one and two nillion immature eggs in their ovaries and men release millions of sperm with each ejaculation. Because, in the larger picture, conception is so difficult to achieve and so tenuous, the human body is designed to produce millions of eggs and and millions of sperm to ensure that conception is even possible. The vast majority of eggs and sperm are designed to be ‘wasted’ and will never produce human life.

Trafalgar on November 3, 2009 at 8:35 AM

Err..that should have looked like this:

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. That’s the beauty of a free country.

BTW — the sperm and ovum that exist prior to your chosen moment are also alive. Really. Life does not come from death, but from life in another form. Is every sperm sacred?

zenscreamer on November 3, 2009 at 8:15 AM

Not an opinion, a fact. The sperm and the ovum are indeed “alive”; however, they are not human life until a single sperm fertilizes a single ovum at conception and a human life begins.

Of course not all sperm and all eggs are sacred. Women are born with between one and two nillion immature eggs in their ovaries and men release millions of sperm with each ejaculation. Because, in the larger picture, conception is so difficult to achieve and so tenuous, the human body is designed to produce millions of eggs and and millions of sperm to ensure that conception is even possible. The vast majority of eggs and sperm are designed to be ‘wasted’ and will never produce human life.

Trafalgar on November 3, 2009 at 8:35 AM

Trafalgar on November 3, 2009 at 8:37 AM

then you have to say that the Catholic Church is seriously wrong when you consider that the Catholic Church has had roughly 3000 instances over 50 years in at least three countries, where priests did rape children and then the Catholic Church covered up the crimes (and, in some cases, tried to make the children think they were somehow partially to blame).

Jimbo3 on November 2, 2009 at 3:59 PM

What’s your point? It is not the doctrine of the Catholic Church to molest children nor cover it up.

CDeb on November 3, 2009 at 8:51 AM

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. That’s the beauty of a free country.

BTW — the sperm and ovum that exist prior to your chosen moment are also alive. Really. Life does not come from death, but from life in another form. Is every sperm sacred?

zenscreamer on November 3, 2009 at 8:15 AM

The sperm and ovum are haploid, and each contains the genes of the father and mother respectively. When the sperm fertilizes the egg, the resulting DNA in that diploid cell is that of a new individual. That’s not opinion — that’s science.

Now, what you ought to be able to do with that new individual is opinion, but, again, it is scientific fact that the fertilized egg and all that comes after it will have the same DNA as the adult human that results if the process of development is not disturbed.

And it is indeed the beauty of a free country that, if enough people believe that this scientific fact ought to be reflected in the law of the land, it will happen.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 9:06 AM

We have a very fundamental difference in our theological beliefs which will never be resolved here- I say faith alone & you say repentance. Arguing about that is a waste of time, in my opinion. It is a debate that has gone on for thousands of years.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 8:08 AM

“Go and sin no more.”

No, it’s a debate that began around the time of the Reformation. Prior to the Reformation, repentance of your sin, as indicated in the New Testament by Jesus’s own words, was essential to forgiveness. Repentance is central to both Catholic and Orthodox theology.

One of my relatives has the same viewpoint as you. She left the Church because of precisely this issue, for another church which teaches as you teach — that faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Each time she would steal from people, she would pray to the Lord and feel that good feeling that comes from forgiveness, all the time knowing that she would steal again. She certainly had tremendous faith in the Lord, but was unwilling to translate that faith into works.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 9:16 AM

What’s your point? It is not the doctrine of the Catholic Church to molest children nor cover it up.

CDeb on November 3, 2009 at 8:51 AM

I believe the lack of a cogent point is pointed out most adroitly by Petunia:

I assume someone is saying that abortion isn’t murder because some priests molested some kids.

petunia on November 3, 2009 at 1:02 AM

Or, as the Far Side would put it: “But Two Wrongs, multiplied by this formula, DO make a Right!”

I made a mistake. I fed the troll.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 9:20 AM

Why are you arguing religion. We’re talking about a corporation that not only kills babies, but illegally hides pedophiles without reporting them to the police and one that accepts donations to be used to destroy a specific race of baby. There is no more deviant, disgusting, satanic organization in the world, no matter what religion you are.

Jeff from WI on November 3, 2009 at 9:28 AM

Your CHOICE of having a baby or not is made when you CHOOSE to have sex or not.
If you don’t want a baby, don’t have sex.
After you CHOOSE to have sex it is entirely up to God and out of your hands.
Naturally, if you were raped the choice wasn’t yours. I cannot imagine the difficulty a woman would have in that situation.

Artifact67 on November 3, 2009 at 9:35 AM

Now pray, repent and get back full time to church. I saw a video of an abortion and believe me, it leaves a mark on you.

Now these bastards suing her, now is when all pro-life must unite and b

ProudPalinFan on November 3, 2009 at 6:17 AM

Who is this directed to? Ms Johnson? The Episcopal church is not the church to get back to. It has fallen off the cliff. Many people feel mentally trapped, and some are just too old to move on, but transitioning out of the Episcopal church is hard. We tend to dislike Romans and Baptists about equally. But many of the protestant sects are on the verge of falling off the cliff also, so the choices are really limited.

In a diocese where there are are not many active non-Episcopal Anglican churches, it’s really hard.

bbhack on November 3, 2009 at 9:37 AM

Why are you arguing religion. We’re talking about a corporation that not only kills babies, but illegally hides pedophiles without reporting them to the police and one that accepts donations to be used to destroy a specific race of baby. There is no more deviant, disgusting, satanic organization in the world, no matter what religion you are.

Jeff from WI on November 3, 2009 at 9:28 AM

Without some philosophy based around God, people are just cattle. It’s hard to argue otherwise – the last century’s atheist rulers killed dozens or hundreds of millions.

bbhack on November 3, 2009 at 9:41 AM

those of you that think I advocated murder, running red lights, child prostitution, ect..

GO BACK AND READ IT AGAIN!

“legislating morality(beyond basic rights)DOESN’T WORK.”

but, I suppose those are the mental hoops you must go through, to on one hand respect individual rights, and on the other tell people what they can and cannot do based on your particular version of the word of some deity.

either people have free will, and individual rights, or they don’t. pick one. and stick with it.

everywhere there are things people don’t like. you are free to speak out against them if you want. but it isn’t the governments job to keep people from sinning. the state CAN’T really stop you. we’ve proven that, over and over again. thats everyone’s job INDIVIDUALLY.

warhorse_03826 on November 3, 2009 at 9:45 AM

What a brave women…a pity our leaders are not as brave…God bless her in her revelation. She was lost, but now was found…
right2bright on November 2, 2009 at 8:46 PM

The most amazing thing in ones life is if and when the light goes on. You then see that all life is sacred and how you deal with it holds consequences that reverberate throughout eternity.

Nalea on November 3, 2009 at 9:52 AM

OK, is it just me or have we found an actual example of what Obama claims is the standard operating procedure of doctors who want to cut off feet and pull out tonsils because that is where the money is.

Unfortunately for BO, it happens to be in the abortion business. Hmmm… I wonder if he’ll make a point of saying something about it.

archer52 on November 3, 2009 at 4:10 AM

Well! I guess it is clear why Obama thinks doctors work on the profit motive over the good of patients. It’s the kind of doctor he hangs with.

The left is incredibly disgusting in the kind of society they are pushing on us. They are shocked at nothing!

Good people should be shocked by abortion for profit. Even if you think it isn’t murder! It is still a fairly dangerous medical procedure that can cause sterility and deep emotional scarring! And they want to do it to make money.

How can anyone defend that?

petunia on November 3, 2009 at 10:09 AM

One of my relatives has the same viewpoint as you. She left the Church because of precisely this issue, for another church which teaches as you teach — that faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Each time she would steal from people, she would pray to the Lord and feel that good feeling that comes from forgiveness, all the time knowing that she would steal again. She certainly had tremendous faith in the Lord, but was unwilling to translate that faith into works.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 9:16 AM

I am sorry your relative used God’s grace as a license to sin, but that really has nothing to do with me. Maybe there were some other biblical principles she didn’t fully understand.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 10:10 AM

Who is this directed to? Ms Johnson? The Episcopal church is not the church to get back to. It has fallen off the cliff. Many people feel mentally trapped, and some are just too old to move on, but transitioning out of the Episcopal church is hard. We tend to dislike Romans and Baptists about equally. But many of the protestant sects are on the verge of falling off the cliff also, so the choices are really limited.

In a diocese where there are are not many active non-Episcopal Anglican churches, it’s really hard.

bbhack on November 3, 2009 at 9:37 AM

Come on home to the Orthodox Church!

Millions upon millions of Anglicans already have!

The Orthodox Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

We are the only Church that has valid Apostolic Succession and the only Church that has kept without alteration the Holy Tradition left to us by Christ and His Holy Apostles!

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/indexeng.htm

http://www.oca.org/

http://www.antiochian.org/discoverorthodoxchristianity

MaximusConfessor on November 3, 2009 at 10:19 AM

I read through this article and comments with interest, but I still have questions. I wonder if someone who is pro-choice could please help me out, with an assignment I have for Ethics class.

What is your position on abortion, and why do you hold that position? Please name three or four reasons that you are pro-choice.

I appreciate your comments.

eaglesnesthome on November 3, 2009 at 10:33 AM

Warhouse, you seem to be viewing this as some sort of issue of sin or morality on the level of execessive drinking.

This isn’t the case. It is an issue of homicide. Legislating homicide is most certainly an issue that society can tackle.

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 10:35 AM

What is your position on abortion, and why do you hold that position? Please name three or four reasons that you are pro-choice.

eaglesnesthome on November 3, 2009 at 10:33 AM

I don’t want to belabor the point, but the term ‘pro-choice’ is a red herring designed to give the slaughter of children a sort of benign feel to it. There are several corrct expressions which can be used, including ‘pro-death’, ‘pro-murder’, or ‘anti-life’.

When someone tells you they are ‘pro-choice’ there is only one response. Ask them “Choice to do what?”

Trafalgar on November 3, 2009 at 11:13 AM

Abby Johnson is on the Laura Ingraham show with Raymond Arroyo right now (11:20am EST).

MassVictim on November 3, 2009 at 11:26 AM

–I have. The fetus can’t feel pain at 12 weeks and doesn’t have a working brain. It’s likely an involuntary reaction.

Jimbo3 on November 2, 2009 at 4:00 PM

Check out the topic of cellular memories.

mamagetsamini on November 3, 2009 at 11:45 AM

this is a tried and true equation. we’ve done it with many things over time and come up with the same results, with whatever thing it’s tried with.

alcohol. drugs. abortion. prostitution. sex toys. pornography. contraceptives. cigarettes. guns. clowns.

warhorse_03826 on November 3, 2009 at 1:50 AM

I agree with your statements except abortion. Abortion is about the right to life. The woman has right to say no, to not allow entry, or use contraceptives, but once she is with child, the child has rights also. Abortion is murder. We need to support and help the women in a crisis pregnancy, but now it has become a means of birth control. A poor choice for birth control, abortion is to fix a mistake, Sounds like reason for murder.

Ed Laskie on November 3, 2009 at 12:32 PM

KBTX, wow a News Outlet that actually covered the story, amazing!

Irenaeus on November 3, 2009 at 12:52 PM

I am sorry your relative used God’s grace as a license to sin, but that really has nothing to do with me. Maybe there were some other biblical principles she didn’t fully understand.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 10:10 AM

Ah, but it does have something to do with you. You espouse the same philosophy, and I recognize it for what it is. It has little to do with biblical principles other than choosing the ones you like to incorporate into your own personal god. That’s what my relative has done, with her firm insistence on faith alone leading to salvation. She now attends a church whose pastor reinforces that position every Sunday.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 12:59 PM

The Orthodox Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

MaximusConfessor on November 3, 2009 at 10:19 AM

Why doesn’t their name say that? I think the word “Catholic” does not mean what you think it means.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 1:02 PM

You espouse the same philosophy, and I recognize it for what it is. It has little to do with biblical principles other than choosing the ones you like to incorporate into your own personal god.

You don’t know a thing about me, that’s obvious. But I’m not gonna lose any sleep over it, it’s what God thinks of me that I care about. Have a great day!

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 1:04 PM

Naturally, if you were raped the choice wasn’t yours. I cannot imagine the difficulty a woman would have in that situation.

Artifact67 on November 3, 2009 at 9:35 AM

The sins of the father are expiated by the sacrifice of his child. At least that’s the common pro-choice wisdom.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 1:04 PM

You don’t know a thing about me, that’s obvious. But I’m not gonna lose any sleep over it, it’s what God thinks of me that I care about. Have a great day!

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 1:04 PM

I know you well, from your comments here. You probably sit in the chair next to my relative.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM

I read through this article and comments with interest, but I still have questions. I wonder if someone who is pro-choice could please help me out, with an assignment I have for Ethics class.

What is your position on abortion, and why do you hold that position? Please name three or four reasons that you are pro-choice.

I appreciate your comments.

eaglesnesthome on November 3, 2009 at 10:33 AM

–Google Judith Jarvis Thompson and involuntary violinist.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM

A single-celled zygote is not a baby
An eight-celled zygote is not a baby
A one-hundred celled zygote is not a baby
A four-week fetus is not a baby…..

But certainly a 22 week fetus IS a baby.

Is it possible that it could be okay for the adult with the most to lose in this situation should be able to decide for herself when SHE considers her fetus to be a baby?

IMHO that would be a reasonable Libertarian stance to take.

Not that there is liable to be much reason in the response I’m going to get.

zenscreamer on November 2, 2009 at 3:17 PM

I have in front of me a copy of a textbook for medical sstudents called “The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology.” On page one it says, “Human development is a continuous process that begins when an ovum from a female is fertilized by a sperm from a male…A zygote is the beginning of a new human being.”

All that is needed for that zygote to become a toddler, an adolescent and an adult (like you) is time and nourishment.

It seems to me that your personal, subjective definition of what a “baby” is revolves around appearance. Have you never heard of DNA? From the moment that zygote is created, that new human being has a human DNA code that is made from, yet is different than, Mother or Father’s. When you were in your earliest stages of development, you looked very different from the way you do today — and yet you were still “you.”

Please stop thinking that the abortion debate revolves around the term “baby.” There is much more to consider.

Every mother deserves better than abortion, and every child deserves a chance. Don’t you agree?

KyMouse on November 3, 2009 at 1:13 PM

The involuntary violinist is a terrible argument because it neglects to take into account the fact that the mother causes the child to be reliant upon her.

To make the analogy accurate, you would have to inject the violinist with a substance that caused his kidneys to fail in the first place. If that were the case, your obligation to the violinist would be much greater. Sure you could still deny the use of your body to the violinist, but you would then be held responsible for his death.

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 1:24 PM

The saddest part is that abortions have become a money making business. The people pushing the process don’t even really care about the person that eventually deals with the guilt. Once money becomes the driving force morals go out the window.
PPH doesn’t guide the masses to abstain or use effective birth control. Why not just murder the baby legally and make a buck?
I have a family member that has had an abortion. That was 10 years ago and to this day she regrets it.

SgtRed on November 3, 2009 at 1:25 PM

then you have to say that the Catholic Church is seriously wrong when you consider that the Catholic Church has had roughly 3000 instances over 50 years in at least three countries, where priests did rape children and then the Catholic Church covered up the crimes (and, in some cases, tried to make the children think they were somehow partially to blame).

Jimbo3 on November 2, 2009 at 3:59 PM
What’s your point? It is not the doctrine of the Catholic Church to molest children nor cover it up.

CDeb on November 3, 2009 at 8:51 AM

–My point was that, as far as I can tell, there have been about 10 claims that PP covered up “fake” child abuse in roughly a year’s time period. They have over 850 locations. If you think PP is bad and needs to have its funding cut off and investigation by police and Congress, then how can you not think the Catholic church deserves exactly the same thing, given its significantly more extensive problems. And I’m not convinced 10 out of 850 is all that bad of a percentage. I bet I could get more than 10 7-11s in this country to sell cigarettes to 17 years olds.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 1:26 PM

The involuntary violinist is a terrible argument because it neglects to take into account the fact that the mother causes the child to be reliant upon her.

To make the analogy accurate, you would have to inject the violinist with a substance that caused his kidneys to fail in the first place. If that were the case, your obligation to the violinist would be much greater. Sure you could still deny the use of your body to the violinist, but you would then be held responsible for his death.

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 1:24 PM

–But not if you took reasonable precautions (birth control) to prevent the violinist from becoming attached to you in the first place.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 1:28 PM

Jimbo, where’d you get 10? I assume you’re talking about the Mona Lisa Project?

Prior to that project, Life Dynamics did a phone sting that involved 800 planned parenthood officials willing to cover up a child rape.

http://www.childpredators.com/ReadReport.cfm

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 1:31 PM

Well, that’s a fuzzy, crazy line of your own invention!
Obviously, someone you know (and perhaps love) has aborted one of your children and this is how you deal with it.
I can’t understand any other reason for you to be so cold-blooded.
It’s been quite a day and I’m not willing to re-argue your peculiar thresholds for human viability like “working brain” and ” able to be categorized as humans.”
I don’t usually say this, but I hope you’re either homosexual or have had a vasectomy.
Pity the poor girl and her baby who becomes pregnant with your unplanned or unwanted child!
I don’t think most men think like you, not nice, Christian men anyway…*shudder*.

Jenfidel on November 2, 2009 at 7:18 PM

–I have two kids and no one’s aborted any of my kids to my knowledge. I do have a vasectomy (obviously later in life). And stop trying to sweet talk me. I’m still voting for Kay.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 1:32 PM

No, Jimbo, reasonable percautions do not negate responsiblity. Everyone knows that birth control is not 100% effective. It is a gamble.

To go back to the violinist, it would be akin to injecting a substance into him that would only cause kidney damage 10% of the time. You would still be held responsible for the damage you caused, even if you thought you had a reasonable chance that he would not be harmed.

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 1:34 PM

Everyone who considers voting for people like B. Hussien Obama or anyone else in the infanticidal Democrat party should be forced to watch this video.

TrickyDick on November 3, 2009 at 1:36 PM

No, Jimbo, reasonable percautions do not negate responsiblity. Everyone knows that birth control is not 100% effective. It is a gamble.

To go back to the violinist, it would be akin to injecting a substance into him that would only cause kidney damage 10% of the time. You would still be held responsible for the damage you caused, even if you thought you had a reasonable chance that he would not be harmed.

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 1:34 PM

–I don’t agree with the injection analogy because it’s not the mother that does the injection, it’s nature.

So if you locked your door but only used one lock and the violinist came in and hooked himself up to you, you would be responsible?

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 1:51 PM

I said the Bible does not address the issue & so we do not know

kg598301 on November 2, 2009 at 10:06 PM

Did you respond to my earlier question, or did I miss it? You said that the Bible does not address the issue of abortion so I asked you to explain the passage below. It shows Jeremiah was known by God before he was even conceived in the womb.

“Before I (God) formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

How do you explain this passage? Seems to me if Jeremiah’s mother aborted him it would have certainly been murder.

We have a very fundamental difference in our theological beliefs which will never be resolved here – I say faith alone & you say repentance.

Satan believes in God. “Devils also believe (in God), and tremble” (James 2:19). I guarantee that if Adolph Hitler was sitting here with you he’d say, “I believe in god too.” Are they going to heaven? Is that what you’re saying. You just have to believe? Because the Bible says, “Repentance and remission of sins SHOULD BE PREACHED in his name AMONG ALL THE NATIONS, beginning at Jerusalem.” Luke 24:47

I gotta run.

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 1:55 PM

Jimbo, where’d you get 10? I assume you’re talking about the Mona Lisa Project?

Prior to that project, Life Dynamics did a phone sting that involved 800 planned parenthood officials willing to cover up a child rape.

http://www.childpredators.com/ReadReport.cfm

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 1:31 PM

–The issue you have is that it may not be a crime in most states or in most situations if people don’t report statutory rape. My understanding is that, in about 15 states, you only must report it if you are the custodian of the child. In other situations, you only have to report it if you are a health care worker, teacher, etc., so it’s likely not a violation if they called to a receptionist at PP instead of a nurse or doctor. And in most states, things like the age differential, come into play in determining whether it’s statutory rape. So the number of actual violations is what’s important, not the number of calls.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 1:56 PM

No, it’s not “nature.”

The mother doesn’t spontaneously become pregnant. Her actions lead to the pregnancy. Sure she doesn’t micromanage the egg and the sperm, but her actions introduce the two.

My point with the injection is that a direct action was taken that lead to a consequence. Sex is a direct action that leads to a consequence of pregnancy. An injection is a direct action that leads to a consequence of kidney failure.

If you want to get technical you can say that sex introduces the sperm which reacts with the egg to cause pregnancy, while the injection introduces the toxin which intereacts with the kidney causing failure.

The analogy stands.

You need to acknowledge that point before we can continue further deconstructing the analogy.

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 2:00 PM

Before I (God) formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

How do you explain this passage? Seems to me if Jeremiah’s mother aborted him it would have certainly been murder.

–Seems to me that you’re using that verse to prove too much. If his mother used birth control, that would also interfere, wouldn’t it? Because that is “before I formed…”

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 2:00 PM

Jimbo, according to LDI, Planned Parenthood and the National Abortion Federation fail to report statutory rape 90% of the time.

From the previous link:

“With the information we now have, it is simply undeniable that Planned Parenthood and the National Abortion Federation have made a conscious decision to conceal the sexual exploitation of children and protect the men who commit these crimes.

We have uncovered an overwhelming body of statistical evidence showing that the rate at which these two organizations fail to comply with mandatory reporting laws is in excess of 90 percent. This data was obtained from government sources, medical journals, independent researchers and the abortion industry itself.26 ”

Here’s the sources they used to obtain that number:

· Planned Parenthood tax filings for 1999.

· U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, Administration on Children,

Youth and Families. Child Maltreatment 1999. Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 2001.

· Moore, K.A., Driscoll, A.K., Lindberg, L.D. A Statistical Portrait of

Adolescent Sex, Contraception, and Childbearing. Washington, DC: National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, 1998.

· The Alan Guttmacher Institute, “Facts In Brief: Contraceptive

Services,” http://www.agi-usa.org.

· U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, “Youth Risk Behavior

Survey 99, Version 2,” Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

· U.S. Census Bureau, American Fact Finder, Detailed Tables: P12: Sex By

Age, P14: Sex By Age for the Population Under 20 Years, PCT12: Sex By Age, http://www.census.gov.

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 2:04 PM

No, it’s not “nature.”

The mother doesn’t spontaneously become pregnant. Her actions lead to the pregnancy. Sure she doesn’t micromanage the egg and the sperm, but her actions introduce the two.

My point with the injection is that a direct action was taken that lead to a consequence. Sex is a direct action that leads to a consequence of pregnancy. An injection is a direct action that leads to a consequence of kidney failure.

If you want to get technical you can say that sex introduces the sperm which reacts with the egg to cause pregnancy, while the injection introduces the toxin which intereacts with the kidney causing failure.

The analogy stands.

You need to acknowledge that point before we can continue further deconstructing the analogy.

–I don’t acknowledge the point, Vera and I don’t think the analogy stands. The injection serves no other purpose and sex does, so it’s like taking russian roulette with a gun.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 2:05 PM

Planned Parenthood tax filings for 1999.

· U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, Administration on Children,

Youth and Families. Child Maltreatment 1999. Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 2001.

· Moore, K.A., Driscoll, A.K., Lindberg, L.D. A Statistical Portrait of

Adolescent Sex, Contraception, and Childbearing. Washington, DC: National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, 1998.

· The Alan Guttmacher Institute, “Facts In Brief: Contraceptive

Services,” http://www.agi-usa.org.

· U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, “Youth Risk Behavior

Survey 99, Version 2,” Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

· U.S. Census Bureau, American Fact Finder, Detailed Tables: P12: Sex By

Age, P14: Sex By Age for the Population Under 20 Years, PCT12: Sex By Age, http://www.census.gov.

–How do any of those sources have the details about who told whom what? And why are none of those sources the laws of the various states? Color me skeptical.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 2:07 PM

Hey maybe I get a sexual thrill from injecting violinists with toxin. It fulfils an emotional need and gives me pleasure.

Everything we do, we do because we obtain some sort of pleasure from the activity. Sex is not a special case.

Why doesn’t the analogy stand. What makes sex so special that the rules of action and consequence no longer apply?

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 2:08 PM

Because injecting a substance that kills 10% of the time serves no other purpose.

If I drive my car within the laws, my brakes fail even though I had them checked three months ago and I hit someone and the only thing that can save him is being hooked up to me for four months, am I ethically required to do that?

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 2:13 PM

You’re ethically required to deal with the results of your actions. If for some reason the only way this person will live is by the use of your kidney, you disallow it,and he dies, you’re responsible for his death in whatever capacity the court finds appropriate.

However, using your logic of intended purpose, your analogy fails. The intended purpose of driving is never to have a massive break failure that results in critically injuring another person.

Either we accept that intent is irrelevant, or we agree that there is no direct analogous situation to a pregnancy and examine it through universal principles of actions and consequences.

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 2:24 PM

The siutation most resembling pregnancy in terms of shared bodily domain is a conjoined twining.

We can see the principle of perserving a weaker life when we look at how medicine deals with these instances.

If there are conjoined twins of unequal health, both are kept together and alive unless doing so would cause the death of both. If removing the weaker twin would result in his death, and remaining conjoined would not cause death to the stronger twin, the two remain conjoined.

Unlike the violinist argument which requires abstraction and hypothesis, we can look clearly to see how current medical ethics deal with a shared body.

In arguments of bodily domain, which the violinist argument attempts to address, identical twins serve as the most useful example. It overrides the hypothetical violinist, and indeed, makes any points made from that argument moot.

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 2:34 PM

This is great coverage on a very important story. Thank you.

gocatholic on November 3, 2009 at 2:35 PM

If you think PP is bad and needs to have its funding cut off and investigation by police and Congress, then how can you not think the Catholic church deserves exactly the same thing, given its significantly more extensive problems.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 1:26 PM

What funding would that be that you think needs to be cut off from the Catholic church? The Catholic church is a self-funded, self-supporting institution and, in case you hadn’t heard, the government is not allowed to fund or get involved in church administration.

And what on earth does the Catholic church’s problems vis-a-vis child abuse have to do with its position on abortion?

Trafalgar on November 3, 2009 at 2:56 PM

said the Bible does not address the issue & so we do not know
kg598301 on November 2, 2009 at 10:06 PM
Did you respond to my earlier question, or did I miss it? You said that the Bible does not address the issue of abortion so I asked you to explain the passage below. It shows Jeremiah was known by God before he was even conceived in the womb.
“Before I (God) formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5
How do you explain this passage? Seems to me if Jeremiah’s mother aborted him it would have certainly been murder.

Sorry apac, no I did not respond to your question. This passage clearly shows the foreknowledge & omniscience of God, that He knew before time began all that was knowable, both the actual & probable- about all of us. He knew the born & the unborn, those who would be alive at birth, those who would not, and those who would not come out of the womb to receive life, whether by natural causes or the hand of man. It does not address the issue of abortion.

We have a very fundamental difference in our theological beliefs which will never be resolved here – I say faith alone & you say repentance.
Satan believes in God. “Devils also believe (in God), and tremble” (James 2:19). I guarantee that if Adolph Hitler was sitting here with you he’d say, “I believe in god too.” Are they going to heaven? Is that what you’re saying. You just have to believe? Because the Bible says, “Repentance and remission of sins SHOULD BE PREACHED in his name AMONG ALL THE NATIONS, beginning at Jerusalem.” Luke 24:47

The bible says, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. That is very different from believing in “a” god, or some kind of a supreme being, as an agnostic would. Satan rebelled against God & did not trust in Jesus Christ, instead he wanted to be “like the most high”.
Since we all sin as long as we are alive, God has graciously given us the function of confession (you are calling it repentence), the ability to “change our mind”, confess our sins & be restored with God. Of course He condemns sin, but He has freed us from that condemnation through Jesus Christ’s payment on the cross & given us the ability to move forward. (1 John 1:9) And yes, He does forget it- the Bible states that clearly. That is why our sins never condemn us to hell- the only sin that does is the sin of unbelief. Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, not by any works we can do. “It is finished”.

I appreciate your being respectful here apac, thank you. I’m done engaging with folks on this thread who aren’t, but I do not mind answering an honest sincere question. Have a good one!

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 3:06 PM

Thank you so much for the insights. However, I can’t see the logic; The violinist argument is comparing apples and oranges. At best, it is an inaccurate, manipulative analogy that attempts to equate a full grown, adult’s assault to an innocent, tiny, helpless child. Instinctively, most normal human beings know this argument is flawed; after all, we wouldn’t be here, if our mom’s had denied us the right to continue to live in “her” womb. (Thanks, Mom!)

eaglesnesthome on November 3, 2009 at 4:09 PM

“Before I (God) formed thee (Jeremiah) in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

Seems to me if Jeremiah’s mother aborted him it would have certainly been murder.

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 1:55 PM

Seems to me that you’re using that verse to prove too much. If his mother used birth control, that would also interfere, wouldn’t it? Because that is “before I formed…”

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 2:00 PM

Birth control contraceptives are designed to prevent the male’s sperm from reaching the egg. This type of birth control happens before the sperm and egg meet — before conception (life). Biblically, I wouldn’t say the use of “the pill” is wrong. But, read the verse again it says God formed Jeremiah in the belly, not his mom or dad. How God does it? The timing of it all — I don’t know. My point is and what this verse clearly illustrates is that life begins at conception and embryos are really human beings. God knows each of us before we are born. If you abort life in the womb you are killing a human being.

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 4:43 PM

–But not if you took reasonable precautions (birth control) to prevent the violinist from becoming attached to you in the first place.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 1:28 PM

You took a reasonable precaution to prevent something that occurs naturally when having sex. Being kidnapped and hospitalized by force does not in any way shape or form happen naturally for anything the person in the story was doing.

This analogy works for women who were raped, but it fails completely for those who chose to have sex, knowing that no contraceptive (not even a vasectomy) is 100%, knowing that every time, pregnancy is possible and in fact that pregnancy is primary purpose.

Your car wreck analogy was better, but even then, you don’t have to kill the person you wrecked into. You merely have to withhold treatment. It’s taking someone off life support versus full blown euthanasia.

Though, even in your car wreck story, what person would say no? You caused the wreck. Why wouldn’t you try to save the person’s life?

Esthier on November 3, 2009 at 6:00 PM

“Before I (God) formed thee (Jeremiah) in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 1:55 PM

This passage clearly shows the foreknowledge & omniscience of God, that He knew before time began all that was knowable, both the actual & probable – about all of us … It does not address the issue of abortion.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 3:06 PM

No, you are so wrong. You’re doing the same thing Jimbo3 did. You’re picking and choosing what you like about this verse and ignoring the rest. Read it again. It says God personally forms (creates us) in the womb:

“Before I formed thee in the belly (created by God) I knew thee …” Jeremiah 1:5

It’s true that God is all-knowing – omniscient. In fact, God never has an idea. Think on that for a minute. But, the verse is telling you that God personally makes each one of us in the womb. Now, if you are a baby in your mom’s belly (God created you – there are no accidental babies according to the Bible) and you cut that baby to pieces, it is murder plain and simple. OK.

And that isn’t the only Bible verse that addresses abortion. There are more. For example, Psalm 139:13-16: “For thou (God) hast covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.”

Keep reading the chapter it says, God’s “eyes did see my substance (substance refering to the basic frame or skeleton), yet being unperfect (a baby is “unperfect,” not “imperfect,” until he is ready for delivery, but he is always truly human); and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance (continuance meaning “in days”) were fashioned (the embryo is being fasioned in a way like God formed the body of Adam from the dust of the earth Genesis 2:7)…”

How about God calling Isaiah to his ministry while he was still in his mother’s womb. Isaiah said, “Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.” Isaiah 49:1-5

It was no accident that you were born. OK. Now, if you can’t afford a baby, well, I’m sorry. You don’t say it is not a human. Adopt out the baby. I’d like to know how you respond to these verse? There are more. It would really make my day if you said, “Hey, apacalyps. I gotta say I missed those verses. Praise God! Thanks for bringing them to my attention! I’m gonna have to re-think my position on this because I now see that life is a gift created by God, not to be taken away by abortion.”

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 6:26 PM

You took a reasonable precaution to prevent something that occurs naturally when having sex. Being kidnapped and hospitalized by force does not in any way shape or form happen naturally for anything the person in the story was doing.

This analogy works for women who were raped, but it fails completely for those who chose to have sex, knowing that no contraceptive (not even a vasectomy) is 100%, knowing that every time, pregnancy is possible and in fact that pregnancy is primary purpose.

Your car wreck analogy was better, but even then, you don’t have to kill the person you wrecked into. You merely have to withhold treatment. It’s taking someone off life support versus full blown euthanasia.

Though, even in your car wreck story, what person would say no? You caused the wreck. Why wouldn’t you try to save the person’s life?

Esthier on November 3, 2009 at 6:00 PM

–I don’t believe that I’m morally obligated to save that person’s life if it means he needs to be connected to me for four or six months.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 6:37 PM

It was no accident that you were born. OK. Now, if you can’t afford a baby, well, I’m sorry. You don’t say it is not a human. Adopt out the baby. I’d like to know how you respond to these verse? There are more. It would really make my day if you said, “Hey, apacalyps. I gotta say I missed those verses. Praise God! Thanks for bringing them to my attention! I’m gonna have to re-think my position on this because I now see that life is a gift created by God, not to be taken away by abortion.”

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 6:26 PM

–Apacalyps, sorry to ruin your day. I don’t believe the Bible says anything about abortion and I don’t believe life is a gift from God. I think unwanted children are punishmements. Obama was right.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 6:38 PM

Well Jimbo, you also don’t think that the young offspring of human parents are humans, so your opinion doesn’t really carry much weight in this debate.

Vera on November 3, 2009 at 7:00 PM

It would really make my day if you said, “Hey, apacalyps. I gotta say I missed those verses. Praise God! Thanks for bringing them to my attention! I’m gonna have to re-think my position on this because I now see that life is a gift created by God, not to be taken away by abortion.”

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 6:26 PM

I’m sorry apac, I won’t be the one to make your day today. :(

I have seen all of those verses, & I have studied them. We just disagree on what they mean, is all. God has formed everything in the universe from nothing, of course He forms us in the womb as well.

I have heard very sound theological arguments that God imparts life at birth- very sound, based on the original languages. A fetus may emerge from the womb & then receive the breath of life from God, at which time he cries his lungs out. Or he may be stillborn or a blue baby and not survive birth. I have carried & given birth to a son who did receive life, thank God. I do believe in the sanctity of life & think abortion is a sad & terrible option so I won’t join the party & cast stones at any woman who makes that decision. (It’s way too late here to be the first one to cast the first stone anyway, I am sad to say.)

Is it a sin? If it is the solution is always the same (1 John 1:9 for us as believers) & no woman will go to hell for that just as we won’t go to hell for our sins, if we believe in Jesus Christ & His saving work.

Life is very much a miraculous gift from God, I am just being honest as I have been from the beginning by saying I don’t know for sure from the scriptures exactly when life in the soul begins.

Salvation, I am sure of. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 7:15 PM

Since we all sin as long as we are alive, God has graciously given us the function of confession (you are calling it repentence), the ability to “change our mind”, confess our sins & be restored with God.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 3:06 PM

I agree with what you said here. And with the part of your message I ommitted for the sake of brevity. What I don’t agree with was when you said this, “We have a very fundamental difference in our theological beliefs which will never be resolved here – I say faith alone & you say repentance.” I’m hoping it’s just a matter of wording things differently because it’s absolutely true that we are saved by GRACE ONLY, but to receive that free gift of salvation we must repent and do what God says. It’s not enough to just believe in God. Like I said earlier, you read the Bible it says, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble” (James 2:19). The demons believe in God. Satan believes in God. Anyone can believe in God. You have drunks in nightclubs holding a beer in hand who’ll tell you, “I believe in God,” or “I believe in Jesus,” or, “Yeah, I prayed a prayer and I’m goin’ to heaven.” Problem is, there is no evidence of a true conversion. With true salvation comes genuine repentance and real life change. You have to do what God says. Jesus Himself said, “Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).

I encourage you to start using the word “repentance.” The Bible does repeatedly. This truth is so important because there are literally millions who name the name of Christ but because they don’t see their sin in it true light, they continue to sin and never find a place of Biblical repentance. These are called false converts and they are in BIG TROUBLE on Judgment day when they stand before a holy and righteous God. So please, take this into consideration. Thank you.

I appreciate your being respectful here apac, thank you.

I’m trying to be nice ;-)

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 7:17 PM

I don’t believe the Bible says anything about abortion and I don’t believe life is a gift from God.

Jimbo3 on November 3, 2009 at 6:38 PM

Doesn’t make any difference what you believe. If I don’t believe in a judge and he sentences me to prison it doesn’t matter if I don’t believe in the judge. I’d still go to prison. And you’re gonna stand before the God you don’t believe in. I recommend that you prepare for that day.

I think unwanted children are punishmements. Obama was right.

Well, that is confusion right there. What a poor, tormented, soul.

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 7:26 PM

We have a very fundamental difference in our theological beliefs which will never be resolved here- I say faith alone & you say repentance. Arguing about that is a waste of time, in my opinion. It is a debate that has gone on for thousands of years.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 8:08 AM

Ahhh. That’s the nut of it, eh? A waste of time, never mind 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. As I said before, your understanding of the Bible is pretty shallow.

As for faith vs repent, the KJV lists 112 instances of “repent”, most of which deal with the act of turning away or changing one’s way. 362 instances of faith, most of which deal with ‘keeping the faith’ and shunning sin. Indeed, you can have faith without repentance, but then it only means the faith is shallow and lukewarm (something icky that God spews out). Jesus in his sermons often spoke first of repentance followed by faith as being inextricably linked to salvation.

To whit, the 1st of the only two verses where the two appear together as a phrase, and not merely by context within passages: “Act 20:21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.” Doesn’t get any clearer than that — end of debate!

AH_C on November 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM

I’m trying to be nice ;-)

I know you are trying to be nice, it is obvious to me from your comments that you believe you have to add something to what God has already accomplished to be in His good graces, maybe that includes “being nice”. No, it’s not a matter of wording. We are talking about Grace vs. Legalism.

to receive that free gift of salvation we must repent and do what God says.

That doesn’t sound like a free gift to me, it sounds like we have to earn it. Either salvation is free or it isn’t. God says we trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation. Period.

“and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

I hope you will at some point. Grace & Peace, Kathy

Grace & Peace, Kathy

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 8:06 PM

Lol, as a fellow fallible human being I totally understand where you are coming from- I have had some of the same thoughts concerning child molesters. Thank God we are not God & that through His saving work we are forgiven for our iniquities as well. We all fall short.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM

Are you sure about that?
Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
[SNIP]
Mat 18:5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!
[SNIP]
Mat 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of Man came to save the lost.
[SNIP]
Mat 18:14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “

Abby Jones was blessed in that she had the opportunity to repent of her evil, while able to make a difference. Those of “faith” that do not turn away from the business of murder may not be as fortunate. May God continue to bless her as she fights the fight against the evil she knows so well.

AH_C on November 3, 2009 at 8:46 PM

I’m sorry apac, I won’t be the one to make your day today. :(

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 7:15 PM

You’re not doing me any favours by going against God on abortion.

I have seen all of those verses, & I have studied them. We just disagree on what they mean, is all.

No, no. You don’t want the truth. It’s that simple. The Bible is clear. YOU SHALL NOT KILL! It’s written on your heart! You have too much pride and won’t admit when you are wrong.

Life is very much a miraculous gift from God, I am just being honest as I have been from the beginning by saying I don’t know for sure from the scriptures exactly when life in the soul begins.

NO! That’s not what you said. You’re mind was made up! I showed you Bible verses addressing abortion (murder) and you said, “(abortion) is a decision a woman has to make in her own conscience, between her and God and her doctor,” and you said, “Nowhere in Scripture have I read where He addresses the issue of abortion” and “I’d like to hear the verse that says a woman goes to hell for an abortion.” Then you said, “Even if (God) did specifically say abortion was murder (which I’ve never seen in Scripture, for the umpteenth time!) he would not condemn a woman to hell for it.” That’s what you said! So STOP LYING and telling me now, “I am just being honest ..I don’t know for sure from the scriptures exactly when life in the soul begins.” You’re mind was already made up!

I mean, you even said if it could be proven that God opposed abortion, that the murderer wouldn’t go to hell!? How can make such a bold statement like that — I mean, these are just nutty declarations. I’m done talking with you. I’m not trying to be rude, but you’re starting to lie, and this has become a waste of my time. Talking with folks you is like banging your head against a wall. It doesn’t matter how much evidence you show them, they don’t wanna see it. Like this, here is an interesting passage telling us John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb, indicating personhood, but you won’t admit that aborting him would be murder:

“For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.” Luke 1:15

So if you don’t mind I’d rather not talk to you and your advocating the murder of children. You know this is wrong. It doesn’t matter what you believe. You have to face God on Judgment day. If somebody has taken the life of a child — what you do is you can’t acknowledge that it is murder. Furthermore, you’re calling God a liar. It’s really sickening. Your pride and disrespect for God has show through in this debate. You have exposed yourself by making certain comments that a believer will not make. I have a feeling that you are a phony. Good luck. You’re gonna need it.

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 8:46 PM

I have no doubt after reading this thread as to why Allah would choose atheism over Christianity. What would the advantage be to him to believe in Jesus Christ when he sees Christians attacking each other? Isn’t that what Jesus taught against? Good grief! Good night.

Grace rules. Selah.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 9:01 PM

it is obvious to me from your comments that you believe you have to add something to what God has already accomplished to be in His good graces

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 8:06 PM

That is a bold-faced lie.

Either salvation is free or it isn’t.

Stop lying. I said salvation if FREE. “SALVATION IS FREE!” Got it?

God says we trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation. Period.

You don’t seem to understand what repent means. It means turn from your sin towards God. Salvation is free for all men, but all must repent (that is, change their minds) concerning the true God and their responsibilty before Him. The Bible says, “(God) commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness” (Acts 17:30-31). God commands you to turn from your sins because He doesn’t want to give you justice. He doesn’t want you to end up in hell. And He can forgive you because of what Jesus did. If you repent, turn from all sin, and put your trust in Jesus, God says I’ll forgive you every sin you’ve ever commited and grant you everlasting life.

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 9:09 PM

I have no doubt after reading this thread as to why Allah would choose atheism over Christianity.

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 9:01 PM

Yeah, that’s the reason why men reject God. The problem with your statement is that it’s wrong – again. The Bible says no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. Jesus said, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44). You have a habit of making fictitious or misleading statements that contradict the Bible.

apacalyps on November 3, 2009 at 9:22 PM

The bible says, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”.
[SNIP]
That is why our sins never condemn us to hell- the only sin that does is the sin of unbelief.
[SNIP]

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 3:06 PM

The verse you’re referring to is Acts 16:31 and was spoken by Paul. If you continue the saga of Paul’s missionary journey, you come to Acts 20:21 (see AH_C on November 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM.

Do those two verses contradict each other? Not in the slightest. The 1st declares the essence of salvation – the baby’s milk version of the Good News. The second summarizes the fundamental doctrine – the adult’s meat.

As Paul explains thusly:
1Co 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

Salvation, I am sure of. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

kg598301 on November 3, 2009 at 7:15 PM

Conflating faith v works and wind up boasting of your faith, ironically with license to sin. Tsk, tsk.

Again what you dished out was the Gospel-lite version from Paul in his preamble, before he delves into the Led-Gospel version in the exact same Book:
Eph 4:7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. (UNDESERVED)
[SNIP]
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
(PURPOSE)
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
(MEAT)
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
(MILK)
[SNIP]
Eph 4:22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,
(REPENT)
[SNIP]
Eph 4:27 and give no opportunity to the devil.
(FIGHT, i.e. against abortion)
Eph 4:28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.
(REDEMPTION)

Once more, heeeeere’s Paul:James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? Answer: NO!

And in conclusion, Paul sez:2Ti 1:13 Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

IOW, take in the entirety of his words, not the bits and pieces that sedates the guilt.

Methinks you only read as far as necessary to find what you want and quit, instead of going the for the full meal deal. To paraphrase that Blue fish: “Just keep studying, Just keep studying… (till you reach the end)”

AH_C on November 3, 2009 at 10:11 PM

@ apacalyps, good work!

AH_C on November 3, 2009 at 10:18 PM

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