ObamaCare loophole: How “wellness incentives” might deprive people of health insurance

posted at 10:41 am on October 16, 2009 by Allahpundit

It’s for your own good. Your government wishes you to be healthy.

Get in shape or pay a price.

That’s a message more Americans could hear if health-care reform provisions passed by the Senate finance and health committees become law.

By more than doubling the maximum penalties that companies can apply to employees who flunk medical evaluations, the legislation could put workers under intense financial pressure to lose weight, stop smoking or even lower their cholesterol…

Critics say employers could use the rewards and penalties to drive some workers out of their health plans…

Under current regulation, incentives based on health factors can be no larger than 20 percent of the premium paid by employer and employee combined. The legislation passed by the health and finance committees would increase the limit to 30 percent, and it would give government officials the power to raise it to 50 percent.

A single employee whose annual premiums cost him and his employer the national average of $4,824 could have as much as $2,412 on the line. At least under the health panel’s bill, the stakes could be higher for people with family coverage. Families with premiums of $13,375 — the combined average for employer-sponsored coverage, according to a recent survey — could have $6,688 at risk.

But won’t this save money by reducing overall health-care costs? Hmmm:

Jack W. Walker, the top executive at the health plan, predicted that over the long run, the federal government will pay for [its] success. State workers who live longer will spend more time collecting benefits from Medicare, the federal insurance program for older Americans, he said.

Laying aside the eternal libertarian question of how nannyish a nanny state should be in forcing the public to take care of itself, does anyone seriously think an aggressive incentives regime would last long? As WaPo says elsewhere in the article, the ObamaCare debate is fundamentally about whether health insurance should be like insurance, i.e. where your own individual risk factors determine what you pay, or like welfare, i.e. you’re covered no matter what because that’s the humanitarian thing to do. The left views it as welfare — that was the point of Olbermann’s idiotic “fight against death” soliloquy, for example, and of Alan “Teacups” Grayson’s screeching on the House floor about Republicans wanting people to die — so if incentives did end up driving up premiums to the point where the obese couldn’t pay, Democrats would simply end up lowering the ceiling on how much incentives can affect premiums.

This goes to the point John Dickerson made yesterday at Slate about why the Baucus bill or the two House bills or whatever ends up passing will inevitably cost much, much more than CBO predicts: It’s not just bureaucratic waste or government mismanagement that bleeds cash, it’s fear of alienating key constituencies by making cuts that affect them — even when those cuts are absolutely necessary. If The One’s so afraid of seniors that he’s pushing a $250 payout to them this year, how afraid will he be of hundreds of thousands of middle-class Americans who can’t manage to lose weight or quit smoking and end up struggling under soaring premiums as their employers hit them with a bunch of new wellness incentives? Or have I misunderstood what the left is really aiming for by expanding the incentives regime — namely, forcing people out of private plans and onto the rolls of a public option, where the incentives will inevitably be more forgiving (in the name of humanitarian welfare)? If that’s the case, then this isn’t a “loophole” or a bug. It’s a feature.

Update: Ah, this was sloppy reading on my part. As a commenter points out, the incentives legislation would ultimately leave it to private insurers to decide how much of the premiums should be affected by incentives. If the private marketplace remains robust, then competitive pressures should keep them from making the incentives too exacting. But the larger point stands: If this did end up in unhealthy people having to pay more, the feds would inevitably step in and either lower the ceiling on incentives or — gulp — use that as a pretext to launch a public option which could undersell private firms. See James Capretta’s piece on the Baucus death spiral for more.

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2

As someone who has lost a lot of weight without “dieting” or going vegan, I suspect they’re not interested in getting people to actually lose weight, but control what they eat and where.

I still enjoy a good cheeseburger and fries and I’m not about to let the arugula lover tell me I shouldn’t be able to enjoy that.

StevefromMKE on October 16, 2009 at 10:48 AM

Waygu beef for all!

Farmer_Joe on October 16, 2009 at 10:49 AM

Obamacare coverage for those that eat too much will be:

Ladle to Grave.

Loxodonta on October 16, 2009 at 10:50 AM

Hey Government, we don’t belong to YOU. YOU ARE OUR EMPLOYEES.

P.S. Look up JIM FIXX. Idiots.

flyfisher on October 16, 2009 at 10:50 AM

control CONTROL.

They don’t care about us. They hate us. We’re just eaters and sh!tters to them now. Paying for health care and sewage is something that their “beneficent hand” does for us. We should just shut up and love them for loving us so much.

///s///

ted c on October 16, 2009 at 10:50 AM

Say what plan is Christina Romer subject to?

BuckeyeSam on October 16, 2009 at 10:50 AM

Put a gun to someone’s head and take their money and then make them behave in a certain way to get it back.

It’s all for their own good so that makes it right?

Juno77 on October 16, 2009 at 10:50 AM

Has the smoker-in-chief quit?

txag92 on October 16, 2009 at 10:50 AM

By more than doubling the maximum penalties that companies can apply to employees who flunk medical evaluations, the legislation could put workers under intense financial pressure to lose weight, stop smoking or even lower their cholesterol…
Critics say employers could use the rewards and penalties to drive some workers out of their health plans

Well! That should help the employment outlook. Nothing like putting all your company’s “fattys” in the corner to increase their productivity and self-assurance. One more time, heed the words of C.S. Lewis:

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

Weight of Glory on October 16, 2009 at 10:51 AM

Or have I misunderstood what the left is really aiming for by expanding the incentives regime — namely, forcing people out of private plans and onto the rolls of a public option, where the incentives will inevitably be more forgiving (in the name of humanitarian welfare)? If that’s the case, then this isn’t a “loophole” or a bug. It’s a feature.

Good point.

jaime on October 16, 2009 at 10:53 AM

This was always the point of Obamacare: Control.

The Statists don’t give a rip-sheet about people, they just want to CONTROL them.

Chainsaw56 on October 16, 2009 at 10:53 AM

Oh what a tangled web they’ve woven for us. The problem is that most Americans won’t even know how these plans are going to affect them until they’re already in place and there’s nothing they can do about it. Today we know how to manage our health, tomorrow? Not so sure.

scalleywag on October 16, 2009 at 10:53 AM

Ladle to Grave.

Loxodonta on October 16, 2009 at 10:50 AM

Excellent.

publiuspen on October 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM

Is Ed on vacation this weekend? Conference? Frozen?

I am all for pricing health insurance based on your health history, but government imposition of that…no thanks.

WashJeff on October 16, 2009 at 10:55 AM

Of course, no mention will be made of the cost of treating sexually-transmitted diseases, particularly AIDS, because sexual behavior is one of the few areas in which the liberals don’t want any government intrusion.

Imagine the government “wellness” program if they did. How would they verify that one had practiced government-approved “safe sex”?

Wethal on October 16, 2009 at 10:55 AM

I despise the lib mentality; they think they should decide what everyone should and shouldn’t do. They won’t stay out of other people’s business, they refuse to understand that you can’t regulate human nature: they refuse to accept that some in life will make bad choices but ultimately its still each individual’s own choice.

beachgirlusa on October 16, 2009 at 10:56 AM

Although I am not really advocating this but when is the government going to start giving drug tests to people who get payments from the government? How about looking at how they spend their money? Do the people who forgo healthcare have cable, internet? How many cars? Again, the government constantly wants to control those who appear to do what a good citizen should be doing, working hard, paying their bills and their taxes. All these little incentives to the producers while the takers are just pitied for their situation.

Cindy Munford on October 16, 2009 at 10:56 AM

“If you like your current insurance, you keep that insurance we will make you hate it. Period. End of Story.”

FIFO

kooly on October 16, 2009 at 10:57 AM

One more time, heed the words of C.S. Lewis:

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
Weight of Glory

One of my favorite authors, and for good reason.

beachgirlusa on October 16, 2009 at 10:57 AM

Although I am not really advocating this but when is the government going to start giving drug tests to people who get payments from the government? …
Cindy Munford on October 16, 2009 at 10:56 AM

Are you talking about politicians?

WashJeff on October 16, 2009 at 10:58 AM

“I am the chief of the exercise police”.

Johan Klaus on October 16, 2009 at 10:58 AM

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. C.S. Lewis

Weight of Glory on October 16, 2009 at 10:51 AM

The big problem is that the Statist Democrats are turning to be Both nanny state tyrants AND robber barons

Chainsaw56 on October 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM

The latest strategy to implement this abomination in face of the majority’s opposition? Chicago-Way $250 vote-buying bribes for seniors.

Drained Brain on October 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM

Wait a minute.

Isn’t that a “pre-existing condition“? So nwo we’re going to expand exclusion for pre-existing conditions???

drjohn on October 16, 2009 at 11:02 AM

Let’s see how friendly Meghan is to Democrats now.

Jeff from WI on October 16, 2009 at 11:02 AM

Or have I misunderstood what the left is really aiming for by expanding the incentives regime — namely, forcing people out of private plans and onto the rolls of a public option, where the incentives will inevitably be more forgiving (in the name of humanitarian welfare)? If that’s the case, then this isn’t a “loophole” or a bug. It’s a feature.

This.

BadgerHawk on October 16, 2009 at 11:02 AM

One of my favorite authors, and for good reason.

beachgirlusa on October 16, 2009 at 10:57 AM

Mine too. I especially like his lecture, The Weight of Glory. Heh.

Weight of Glory on October 16, 2009 at 11:02 AM

Creates a non‐profit, independent board to risk adjust among participating insurance companies to penalize
companies that “cherry pick” health patients and reward insurers that encourage prevention/wellness and cover
patients with pre‐existing conditions

–This was part of the House GOP health care bill, as well.

Jimbo3 on October 16, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Chainsaw56 on October 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM

No doubt.

Weight of Glory on October 16, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Does this “wellness incentive” allow employers to fire fat people b/c their govt premiums will become to high? I can’t wait to hear the first discriminatory case against the govt on this great “incentive.”

I can already see the scenario: “Person sues govt and employer for firing b/c he or she looses their job since they couldn’t lose weight fast enough.”

Lance Murdock on October 16, 2009 at 11:03 AM

So Rush losing 85 lbs would make him Obama’s spokes-model?

Jeff from WI on October 16, 2009 at 11:05 AM

Can’t wait to hear what Cartman says. He’s big boned

Jeff from WI on October 16, 2009 at 11:05 AM

AP’s whole take on this is fundamentally misleading, as though he didn’t have his coffee or something. It doesn’t give the power to alter rates to the government, it gives it to PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYERS. It’s not new with ObamaCare, it’s old. And it is supported mainly by Republicans.

The bipartisan initiative, largely eclipsed in the health-care debate, builds on a trend that is in play among some corporations and that more workers will see in the benefits packages they bring home during this fall’s open enrollment. Some employers offer lower premiums to workers who complete personal health assessments; others limit coverage for smokers.

The current legislative effort would take the trend a step further. It is backed by major employer groups, including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers. It is opposed by labor unions and organizations devoted to combating serious illnesses, such as the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society and the American Diabetes Association.

In fact, the debate has little to do with Obamacare and nothing to do with increasing state power. It’s not about doing good, it’s about saving private employers money (which is not necessarily a bad thing).

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:06 AM

How very sad and sneaky the left are. *sigh* It really is just disgusting the depths to which they would sink. I had already heard about this “loophole” though, and it made me cringe the first time I heard about it, too.

Highlar on October 16, 2009 at 11:07 AM

Let’s see how friendly Meghan is to Democrats now.

Jeff

LOL You are mean :)

beachgirlusa on October 16, 2009 at 11:07 AM

I’m actually very worried about this part of the bill. I already pay a higher life insurance rate because 1) even at 0% body fat I would exceed the gov’t BMI for my height and I am rated as “overweight” even with athletic levels of body fat for my age and 2) because I work out certain proteins and enzymes in my kidneys and liver are higher than average. And I am not some huge body builder guy.

The insurance companies don’t care what your body fat is they just look at the chart. There are pretty much no exceptions. I would expect a gov’t mandated/run insurance scheme to be the same.

deepdiver on October 16, 2009 at 11:07 AM

One of my favorite authors, and for good reason.

beachgirlusa on October 16, 2009 at 10:57 AM
Mine too. I especially like his lecture, The Weight of Glory. Heh.

Weight of Glory

My favorite is “The Screwtape Letters”.

beachgirlusa on October 16, 2009 at 11:08 AM

Hmmm. I wonder if these wellness incentives will be used to harass employees?

Blake on October 16, 2009 at 11:08 AM

Screw that, no way they are going to make me take a statin. The stuff is poison to the liver and does nothing for you but cover up a symptom.

RobD on October 16, 2009 at 11:09 AM

In fact, the debate has little to do with Obamacare and nothing to do with increasing state power. It’s not about doing good, it’s about saving private employers money (which is not necessarily a bad thing).

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:06 AM

You can save my company money if you would support giving individuals the same health insurance tax deduction given to my company.

WashJeff on October 16, 2009 at 11:10 AM

The thing with liberals is this; they’ll first seize control of all of the institutions, services, cities that we all like and use–then they will make them so utterly inhospitable for conservatives to function within them. If they succeed in healthcare takeover, this will be no different. It’ll be no use to boycott it, that’s exactly what they want. They want us to fund their little escapades with our tax money, then boycott them altogether. We foot the bill for their liberal universities, primary education, NEA, and all everything else. They want to takeover healthcare, then make that system so utterly inhospitable for us to function within as well.

ted c on October 16, 2009 at 11:10 AM

In fact, the debate has little to do with Obamacare and nothing to do with increasing state power. It’s not about doing good, it’s about saving private employers money (which is not necessarily a bad thing).

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Want to REALLY save companies money from insurance premiums?

It’s called Tort reform. But that will never happen.

Jeff from WI on October 16, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Let’s see how friendly Meghan is to Democrats now.

Jeff from WI on October 16, 2009 at 11:02 AM

Didn’t you get the memo. AP and Meggie Mac are ”friends’ again on Twitter. All is good in the world.

Let’s see how long before Meggie de-friend’s AP again. I say three weeks.

Lance Murdock on October 16, 2009 at 11:13 AM

WashJeff on October 16, 2009 at 10:58 AM

I wasn’t but certainly willing to expand. I bet their employees get drug tested.

Cindy Munford on October 16, 2009 at 11:14 AM

Didn’t you get the memo. AP and Meggie Mac are ”friends’ again on Twitter. All is good in the world.

Lance Murdock on October 16, 2009 at 11:13 AM

A little cleavage shot always patches things up!

WashJeff on October 16, 2009 at 11:14 AM

Let’s see how friendly Meghan is to Democrats now.

Jeff from WI on October 16, 2009 at 11:02 AM

Didn’t you get the memo. AP and Meggie Mac are ”friends’ again on Twitter. All is good in the world.

Let’s see how long before Meggie de-friend’s AP again. I say three weeks.

Ooopppsss! Should I watch my back?

Lance Murdock on October 16, 2009 at 11:13 AM

Jeff from WI on October 16, 2009 at 11:15 AM

It will also, put you on the WELFARE ROLLS! A democrat dream is to make sure everyone is on the dole!

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/10/16/morning-bell-obamacare-puts-you-on-welfare/

xler8bmw on October 16, 2009 at 11:15 AM

“It’s for your own good.”

3 more yards.

spmat on October 16, 2009 at 11:15 AM

I wasn’t but certainly willing to expand. I bet their employees get drug tested.

Cindy Munford on October 16, 2009 at 11:14 AM

You mentioned all the goodies the people got and it was hard to tell the difference. ;-)

Seriously, though, politicians should have annual drug testing.

WashJeff on October 16, 2009 at 11:16 AM

Jeff from WI on October 16, 2009 at 11:15 AM

I think you’re okay. AP hasn’t swooped in yet; by claiming his love for Meggie by threatening to band you. ;)

Lance Murdock on October 16, 2009 at 11:18 AM

Kooly:

I guess you didn’t get the sarcasm. Sarcasm always makes a point. Progressives have approved lifestyle choices. Chunking up on Big Macs is declassy while buggering as many men and boys as you can is cool.

jerryofva on October 16, 2009 at 11:21 AM

How will this impact Jerrold Nadler, Barbara Mikulski, and Barney Frank?

Oh yeah, it won’t!

flyfisher on October 16, 2009 at 11:22 AM

I see this whole thing in a few ways.
The liberal rake and file.
1. Europe has it and Europe is so much more intellectual and inclusive so it must be good.
2. Just think how the rest of the world will love us if we do this. When I travel to Paris this spring I will be so very proud to say that I’m American because BO is my president and we have universal “free” health care for everyone including non-citizens. They will so love us.

The liberal power whores. i.e. democrat politicians.
1. We need to have health care because the moron rake and file will vote for us.
2. This will give us almost unlimited power and control over the people and they are to stupid to even see it.
3. We don’t really have to have anything but a title for the bill and the morons will eat it up. Lets find the best way to offer the world and not have to deliver on it.
4. Throw in illegals and hell just for sh!ts and giggles throw in the GITMO guys and their families. It doesn’t really matter because we will never deliver on the promises anyway.
5. If we do this right we are in power forever because the morons will never get rid of us for fear of losing something they don’t get.

RagTag on October 16, 2009 at 11:23 AM

I’m getting ready to have a medical procedure done and I’m having to go for tests. I’ve already been to a few facilities and at each one the cost and cutting of diagnostic testing will be cut. In fact, everyone was saying that more women will be hurt by Obamacare.

moonsbreath on October 16, 2009 at 11:24 AM

Kooly:

I guess you didn’t get the sarcasm. Sarcasm always makes a point. Progressives have approved lifestyle choices. Chunking up on Big Macs is declassy while buggering as many men and boys as you can is cool.

jerryofva on October 16, 2009 at 11:21 AM

You probably won Chuckie’s Hot Air Comment of the day award if that means anything to you. CJ is having his minions cherry pick comments to ‘prove’ how racist HA commentators are and by default AP and Ed too.

Lance Murdock on October 16, 2009 at 11:25 AM

Has the smoker-in-chief quit?

txag92 on October 16, 2009 at 10:50 AM

Daily.

MarkTheGreat on October 16, 2009 at 11:28 AM

RagTag on October 16, 2009 at 11:23 AM

If you’re going to throw the term “moron” around so liberally, you should at least be aware that it it “rank and file” not “rake and file.”

The chessboard. Not the tool shed.

Moron.

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:28 AM

In fact, the debate has little to do with Obamacare and nothing to do with increasing state power. It’s not about doing good, it’s about saving private employers money (which is not necessarily a bad thing).
Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:06 AM

If that’s the case, then why don’t they do something that will actually save them money?

Do you really think they’re costs will actually go DOWN????

Can you name a government program that didn’t become a bloated bureaucracy?
Can you name a government program that didn’t cost way more than originally estimated?
Can you name a government program that WORKS better than an equivalent program in Private Industry?

Juno77 on October 16, 2009 at 11:28 AM

You probably won Chuckie’s Hot Air Comment of the day award if that means anything to you. CJ is having his minions cherry pick comments to ‘prove’ how racist HA commentators are and by default AP and Ed too.

Lance Murdock on October 16, 2009 at 11:25 AM

I noticed that yesterday. What is up with that? I mean seriously 2 out of 8 posts excluding the overnight ones are about comments here. Kind of scary in a freaky sort of way.

Johnnyreb on October 16, 2009 at 11:29 AM

How will this impact Jerrold Nadler, Barbara Mikulski, and Barney Frank?

flyfisher on October 16, 2009 at 11:22 AM

I had the same thought. It’s obvious that a group photo of Congressmen won’t be confused with a scene from baywatch. Not all the pork in the Capitol is in the bills. But it’s funny you bring up Barney and those who have made the same lifestyle choice. Seems that engaging in activities with a higher chance of HIV would mean that the government should step in and protect Barney from himself.

highhopes on October 16, 2009 at 11:29 AM

Smells like freedom. – Bleeds Blue

lorien1973 on October 16, 2009 at 11:31 AM

Sometimes, to be free, you must be controlled and told how to live – Bleeds Blue

lorien1973 on October 16, 2009 at 11:32 AM

I noticed that yesterday. What is up with that? I mean seriously 2 out of 8 posts excluding the overnight ones are about comments here. Kind of scary in a freaky sort of way.

Johnnyreb on October 16, 2009 at 11:29 AM

The only thing I could come up with is that Chuckie has finally lost it. Anyway, I thought he actually had web design business. You would think he would actually want to work on his real business rather then troll the internet for comments about him or LGF. But whatever. He’s a giant douche now. Can’t do anything to change that.

Lance Murdock on October 16, 2009 at 11:34 AM

I remember newsreels of the little Chinese workers in their green suits and hats doing jumping jacks in the factory parking lots under Mao.

They just can’t resist being what they are, can they?

Akzed on October 16, 2009 at 11:35 AM

You probably won Chuckie’s Hot Air Comment of the day award if that means anything to you. CJ is having his minions cherry pick comments to ‘prove’ how racist HA commentators are and by default AP and Ed too.

Lance Murdock on October 16, 2009 at 11:25 AM

I noticed that yesterday. What is up with that? I mean seriously 2 out of 8 posts excluding the overnight ones are about comments here. Kind of scary in a freaky sort of way.

Johnnyreb on October 16, 2009 at 11:29 AM

When he did it last night, it ticked me off. However, rereading our comments, there was nothing wrong with them and some were pretty damn funny. But, alas, the God Obama shall not be made fun of.

Blake on October 16, 2009 at 11:35 AM

lorien1973 on October 16, 2009 at 11:32 AM

Lorien think of the upside. No more fatties walking around in public anymore. :p

Lance Murdock on October 16, 2009 at 11:35 AM

Like I told people yesterday, please stay on topic and avoid LGF-baiting. Ace has had umpteen threads hijacked because of that.

Allahpundit on October 16, 2009 at 11:36 AM

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:06 AM

You’re right, this was sloppy reading on my part. I added an update to emphasize your point about private insurers setting the incentives. But the larger point still stands: The feds aren’t going to let them to control costs this way if it means too much suffering for the unhealth, and they can always undercut them with a public option.

Allahpundit on October 16, 2009 at 11:37 AM

Like I told people yesterday, please stay on topic and avoid LGF-baiting. Ace has had umpteen threads hijacked because of that.

Allahpundit on October 16, 2009 at 11:36 AM

Your comment has already been prominently featured over there. They need some new material from you. lol!

Blake on October 16, 2009 at 11:38 AM

Moron.

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:28 AM

Be carefull, you’ve just given everyone permission to go over your posts and rip you everytime you misuse a common phrase, or mis-spell a word.

MarkTheGreat on October 16, 2009 at 11:39 AM

Okay

‘Bleeds Blue’

if we’re going to correct things:
I see this whole thing in a few ways.
The liberal Statist rake rank and file.
1. Europe has it and Europe is so much more intellectual and inclusive so it must be good.
2. Just think how the rest of the world will love us if we do this. When I travel to Paris this spring I will be so very proud to say that I’m American because BO is my president and we have universal “free” health care for everyone including non-citizens. They will so love us.
The liberal Statist power whores. i.e. democrat politicians.
1. We need to have health care because the moron rake rank and file will vote for us.
[Because we bought their votes with money taken at gunpoint from the taxpayers]

2. This will give us almost unlimited power and control over the people and they are to stupid to even see it.
3. We don’t really have to have anything but a title for the bill and the morons will eat it up. Lets find the best way to offer the world and not have to deliver on it.
4. Throw in illegals and hell just for sh!ts and giggles throw in the GITMO guys and their families. It doesn’t really matter because we will never deliver on the promises anyway.
5. If we do this right we are in power forever because the morons will never get rid of us for fear of losing something they don’t get.

[see the comments for point number 1]

RagTag on October 16, 2009 at 11:23 AM

Hope you didn’t mind, RagTag, those were good points, they just needed a little “Editing”.

Juno77 on October 16, 2009 at 11:39 AM

If you’re going to throw the term “moron” around so liberally, you should at least be aware that it it “rank and file” not “rake and file.”

The chessboard. Not the tool shed.

Moron.

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:28 AM

I sit corrected.

Well like you I am a liberal so I guess I was just being true to form.

RagTag on October 16, 2009 at 11:40 AM

How can private insurance remain robust if they can’t deny anyone and there are caps on the premiums they can charge?

Blake on October 16, 2009 at 11:41 AM

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:06 AM

And these people, acting as individuals, with free will, will be tossed out of their ‘private’ health care plans into the arms of:

.. the government option. Their only remaining recourse for health care coverage.

Clever, no?

Whips and clubs delegated to ‘secondary parties’ doesn’t change the nature of said instruments, just the faces of those who wield them.

I know, intellectual honesty can be such a drag at times.

CPT. Charles on October 16, 2009 at 11:42 AM

I can see it coming. Right now smokers are the boogeymen but they are just the smokescreen, no pun intended.
Soon a conversation with whatever government entity is controlling your payments to the state sponsored insurance program will be just like that video that was making the rounds a while back of some guy trying to order a pizza except it will along the lines of:

I see you like to skydive ohhh not good.

You must travel a lot on business judging by the frequent flier miles you have. You know flying has it’s risks.

I see here you contribute to a blog. You know carpal tunnel syndrome is very preventable injury, but judging from your activity it appears you are in a high risk group.

And just expand it to every activity you do from how many miles a day you commute to work, traffic accidents don’t you know to whether the house you live in has city sewer or septic tank.

You think insurance companies are a pain in the butt, let some government bureaucrat be in charge of setting your premiums.

Just A Grunt on October 16, 2009 at 11:42 AM

The chessboard. Not the tool shed.

Moron.

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:28 AM

Those are two incomplete sentences, moron.

Blake on October 16, 2009 at 11:43 AM

AP — your original instincts were spot-on. It’s specious for anyone to argue that in the health insurance environment created by Obamacare, insurance companies will retain effective discretion over their rates, and how to adjust them for the higher-risk insured.

There is nothing compelling us to create the situation in which one person’s cholesterol or smoking habit becomes everyone else’s financial problem. Not one single thing out there mandates that we set this situation up. It’s a wholly artifical situation, and will be man-made and unnecessary no matter how long we might come to live with it.

Remember that.

J.E. Dyer on October 16, 2009 at 11:45 AM

But I thought the libs and feminists taught us that the government was supposed to keep their grubby hands off our bodies? (and their noses out of our bedrooms kitchens?)

What are they going to do with a grossly overweight, gay, pregnant, minority female? Are they on the “approved for health care insurance” list or the “excluded from health care insurance” list?

I’m so confused, someone tell me what to think!!

/S

Fatal on October 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM

Be carefull, you’ve just given everyone permission to go over your posts and rip you everytime you misuse a common phrase, or mis-spell a word.

MarkTheGreat on October 16, 2009 at 11:39 AM

And I will.

Most of my problem is that I out type the keyboard and the Firefox spell checker only picks out misspellings and not correctly spelled wrong words. Proof reading is of limited value because I speed read and know what I wanted to type.

Nobody has ever attacked or called me names for it until now. I often mix up collage and college which has resulted in some funny replys but never attacks. I also often drop the last letter from a word which has resulted in some interpretation problems.

I suspect that BB was “offended” by my characterization of liberals as morons and had no choice but to attack because lets face it liberals are incapable of debating the points.

RagTag on October 16, 2009 at 11:51 AM

The government’s favorite trick with the states is to demand compliance with a federal mandate otherwise highway funding will be withheld.
-
Healthcare for all, provided all mandates are complied with.
-
Lose weight, stop smoking, jump through hoops or your out.

esblowfeld on October 16, 2009 at 12:07 PM

Although I am not really advocating this but when is the government going to start giving drug tests to people who get payments from the government? …
Cindy Munford on October 16, 2009 at 10:56 AM

Do you mean Military? Do you mean politicians? Do you mean unemployed workers? Do you mean retired military? Do you mean retirees? Do you mean people on AFDC? Do you mean widows and orphans of deceased workers? Do you mean politicians? Heck why not every citizen!

kanda on October 16, 2009 at 12:08 PM

How can private insurance remain robust if they can’t deny anyone and there are caps on the premiums they can charge?

Blake on October 16, 2009 at 11:41 AM

The only way that eliminating pre-existing conditions and capping premiums work is if you expand the pool of healthy people paying into the system. For that reason mandatory enrollment is a must if the private insurers are forced to accept everybody. Otherwise people will only get insurance when they need it.

Fact of the matter is that the goal of the filthy liar in the White House and his corrupt party is to kill private insurance. They will pass a bill that essentially has the taxpayer funding the death of decent healthcare in America- to be replaced by filthyliarcare.

highhopes on October 16, 2009 at 12:09 PM

At my last job (whoo hoo funemployment) our Aetna insurance had a wellness program. You could get credits that would offset your premium. I didn’t mind as my health is pretty good. However, they did use the BMI which is horrible. If I were 200lbs and lean at 6 feet tall the BMI would say I had a weight problem. My fiance some years ago was considered nearly overweight by the BMI when she was practically just skin and bones.

Something else that needs to be considered with wellness programs is that certain medications and medical conditions such as thyroid problems can cause high cholesterol, weight gain etc. There needs to be an accounting for that or a lot of people are going to be screwed when they did nothing wrong with their lifestyles.

aikidoka on October 16, 2009 at 12:15 PM

Be carefull, you’ve just given everyone permission to go over your posts and rip you everytime you misuse a common phrase, or mis-spell a word.

MarkTheGreat on October 16, 2009 at 11:39 AM

Yeah. And you’ll catch a lot, so I try to restrain myself, sometimes unsuccessfully. But when you commit a fairly serious lapse while actually calling somebody stupid, it’s too easy. Also, I try to proofread more closely the more vitriolic I am.

The chessboard. Not the tool shed.

Moron.

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 11:28 AM

Those are two incomplete sentences, moron.

Blake on October 16, 2009 at 11:43 AM

Perfectly acceptable in anything but a particularly formal communication. Also, it was three.

“Space: the final frontier.”

Most of my problem is that I out type the keyboard and the Firefox spell checker only picks out misspellings and not correctly spelled wrong words. Proof reading is of limited value because I speed read and know what I wanted to type…

I suspect that BB was “offended” by my characterization of liberals as morons and had no choice but to attack because lets face it liberals are incapable of debating the points.

RagTag on October 16, 2009 at 11:51 AM

If nothing else, Firefox beats the heck out of Explorer for Spell check.

Characterizing liberals as “morons” is in no way a debating point; nor were your other observations debating points. It was a rant and you got roughly the response you had earned.

And if “moron” hurts your feelings, you may be too tenderhearted for this place. I get called worse than that before breakfast some days. (Yes, I know, I kind of ask for it, but the 4th grade ferocity does take one aback at times.)

Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 12:16 PM

The story that is not being told is that ALL current employees of the State of North Carolina (approximately 250,000) pay absolutely no premium for their health care plan. The State of NC pays the premium for employees and the employees pay only for dependent coverage. In addition, every person who ever worked for the State of North Carolina for 5 years or more has premium-free insurance for life. What the state is proposing is additional out-of-pocket expenses like copays and coinsurance for those employees who smoke or are obese. The laughable part is that the employees will not be tested in any way, but the State will rely on employee questionnaires about their habits. And, out-of-pocket expenses will be based only on the habits of the employee. The employee could have an obese smoking spouse and 20 obese smoking children and there is no penalty for that.
And our governor, Ms. Perdue, is busy raising taxes all over the place to pay for this and other nanny-state benefits for State employees and others whom she thinks she can buy votes from.

maryo on October 16, 2009 at 12:21 PM

When Baucus, and all the other libs want to put themselves under these same rigid rules, restrictions, and regulations they demand we have to live under….then I might buy this. As it is now….they can kiss my patootey!!!

capejasmine on October 16, 2009 at 12:30 PM

Upon rereading this post, I notice that the State of North Carolina is not mentioned, but this debate has started because of proposals by the State. The section below from the original post refers to the State of North Carolina State Health Plan.

Jack W. Walker, the top executive at the health plan, predicted that over the long run, the federal government will pay for [its] success. State workers who live longer will spend more time collecting benefits from Medicare, the federal insurance program for older Americans, he said

maryo on October 16, 2009 at 12:30 PM

Obama wants to force you onto welfare! Full story at:
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/10/16/morning-bell-obamacare-puts-you-on-welfare/

Cybergeezer on October 16, 2009 at 12:38 PM

Let’s just get one thing straight:
Obama and his fellow socialists do NOT care about providing ‘health care for everyone’. The purpose of this is to get health care money into the hands of the federal government. They are grabbing everything they can to create greater influx of dollars so that they can spend more on their pet pork projects. Health care money is the biggest prize of all.

maryo on October 16, 2009 at 12:43 PM

Do the people who cause an increase in the overall cost of healthcare pay extra?..you know..the people who run, bike, rollerblade, whitewater raft, skateboard, rock climb, play tennis, water ski, snow ski, snowboard, people on nutrient deficient vegan or badly practiced vegetarian diets, partake of “recreational drugs etc. etc.

Just wondering if this is another slice of “health” memed bullcrap, or if all data points have been looked at before wasting my tax dollars again.

Itchee Dryback on October 16, 2009 at 12:44 PM

This was entirely predictable, and many of us did just that. After the federal government started instructing everyone that, since they had footed the bill for the TARP and paid money to companies (that was un-Constitutional and illegal to do, to start with) that they had “the right” to start dictating all sorts of policies, from the makeup of the board, individual positions to compensation, it was clear that having the federal government handle health insurance would just invite the fascists and morons in to dictate to everyone everything that affected their health (“since we are paying for the care” – the federal government) and any of us smokers know all too well how the government can move to destroy property rights and freedom when they think they are able.

The federal government has NO BUSINESS in health care or health insurance, beyond minor regulatory issues concerning inter-state commerce. Allowing them any role is asking for problems. This is not a secret.

progressoverpeace on October 16, 2009 at 12:46 PM

And if “moron” hurts your feelings, you may be too tenderhearted for this place.
Bleeds Blue on October 16, 2009 at 12:16 PM

Interesting that you added this because I fail to see anything I wrote that even implied I was upset.

I doubt a liberal can ever really upset me because I view liberals as little children and as such have to be forgiven their ignorance of wouldly matters.

I’m sure that there may be some liberals that are well read enough to appear to have intelligence but in my opinion it’s only a form of artificial intelligence that was in-planted in collage.

My points were points of opinion and not just a rant. I do admit I forget sometimes that liberals are reading this site or having it read to them so from now on I will attempt to prefix all my points as points of opinion so that they will not be taken as points of fact or even a rant. That way I can call liberals morons and not have to back it up with links or wiki references.

RagTag on October 16, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Most of my problem is that I out type the keyboard and the Firefox spell checker only picks out misspellings and not correctly spelled wrong words. Proof reading is of limited value because I speed read and know what I wanted to type.
RagTag on October 16, 2009 at 11:51 AM

We all do that, you’re thinking faster than you can type, or you change you thoughts mid-sentence.
I would suggest that you use some separate word processing software that is better at finding errors. Write it up in that, then copy and paste it into the browser.
I also try to proof read, but it doesn’t work all the time and you can probably tell from my postings.

Again, hope you didn’t mind my answering BB using your writing.

Juno77 on October 16, 2009 at 1:31 PM

So… If they deny you the “manditory-universal-’free’ health insurance because you like your double cheeseburgers…. Do they still get to fine you and put you in jail if you don’t have their manditory ‘free’ universal health care insurance?

LegendHasIt on October 16, 2009 at 1:34 PM

FUTURE CONVERSATION WITH A WAITER:

I’d like to see a menu.

Yes sir. How did you vote in the last election?

landlines on October 16, 2009 at 1:36 PM

Ugh, this is just what we need: The government dictating to you to get your cholesterol in order and to stop eating so much fat.

Except that…. the “high cholesterol kills” thing is a myth, with more studies showing it’s LOW cholesterol/dl that ends up in more fatalities, and the human body needs fat and the low-fat thing is pure bullsh*t.

amkun on October 16, 2009 at 1:40 PM

Again, hope you didn’t mind my answering BB using your writing.

Juno77 on October 16, 2009 at 1:31 PM

Nope.

I use to use Word for spelling and grammar but it doesn’t past well into this forum for some reason.

Well I guess BB is gone or not interested. I but lots of errors in my last post to him but he failed to take the bait.

We can only try.

RagTag on October 16, 2009 at 1:43 PM

We

ll I guess BB is gone or not interested. I but lots of errors in my last post to him but he failed to take the bait.

We can only try.

RagTag on October 16, 2009 at 1:43 PM

LOL!

Juno77 on October 16, 2009 at 2:06 PM

Comment pages: 1 2