Vitter: Reid wants illegals counted in the Census

posted at 11:36 am on October 15, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Senator David Vitter has tried to attach an amendment to the Commerce, Justice, and Science appropriation for FY2010 to clarify that the Census should restrict its counts to people in the US legally. The Hill reports that Vitter accuses Harry Reid of attempting to block a vote on the amendment, which might have serious consequences for California and other states with large populations of illegal aliens. Vitter claims that California got as many as five extra Congressional districts from the 2000 Census after their failure to determine status:

Sen. David Vitter (R-La.), who is sponsoring an amendment to an appropriations bill that would require illegal immigrants list their status on next year’s Census, said late Wednesday that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) wants them counted amongst the general population instead.

The senator claimed that Reid wants illegals to be counted in the 2010 Census so that left-leaning states with high illegal immigrant populations could increase the size of their congressional delegations. The Census is a major factor in determining the each state’s share of the 435 seats in the House of Representatives.

“I think it’s pretty clear that Harry Reid and the Democratic side…wants illegals counted in the Census, wants illegals in the reapportionment of the House,” Vitter said on a conservative talk radio show late yesterday.

Vitter, who is co-sponsoring the measure with Sen. Bob Bennett (R-Utah), claimed that illegals counted in the 2000 Census allowed California to maintain up to five additional seats in Congress they should not have.

Each seat represents 690,000 American residents at the moment, although in 2000 it would have been closer to 640,000, as population grew about 8% since the last census.  Would California’s illegals have amounted to 3.2 million?  That would be the upper reaches of estimates for illegal immigrants in the Golden State, but probably not outside the realm of possibility.  If they all got counted, it could have skewed the allocation of seats in the House as much as Vitter claims.

Critics will say that the Census is not an enforcement agency for immigration, and they’d be correct.  However, no one says that the Census Bureau has to act as an enforcement agency, either.  They do not need to call the cops if they discover that residents have no legal status to remain in the country.  They do need, however, to document it, for a couple of reasons.  The lesser reason is that it will give us some real data on which to base immigration enforcement and/or reform legislation in the near future — Barack Obama says it’s one of his key priorities — instead of relying on guesswork from contradictory resources on the subject.

More importantly, though, is the core purpose of the Census itself.  The Constitution requires the Census to properly calculate the legal population in order to apportion representation in the House for the states.  Not only does counting illegal immigrants  have no legitimacy for that purpose, it penalizes those states who act to enforce American law and reward those that act as “sanctuaries” in defiance of the law and national security.

Below, Vitter makes his argument on the Senate floor.  This amendment needs a vote so we can see how our Senators support and defend the Constitution.

Update: Jazz Shaw notes that millions of the forms have already been printed and would have to be replaced if Vitter’s amendment passes:

However, there is one significant problem with Vitter’s move which Ed doesn’t touch on in his article. We’ve already printed tens or hundreds of millions of the forms, with roughly 15 million more currently being printed every day. We’re fast approaching the time when they will all have to be correlated and mailed out. Starting over now would not only throw off the timing, but would cost a lot of money.

So if we’re to object to Vitter’s amendment on any grounds at all, it would be, “Good idea, but how did you not manage to think of this last year?” Surely he is aware of this, and it just adds a bit of a stench to the proceedings as if he’s just trying to shut the census process down at this point, which is simply out of the question. It’s a valid point he raises, however, and we should definitely address this before the 2020 head count.

Jazz’ point is also well taken, but what would be the actual cost?  Unless we’re printing on parchment, I doubt that the cost to stop and reprint would amount to more than $100 million.  In fact, as Senator Bennett points out, all that really needs to happen is to print an additional sheet for the new question and include in in the packets, which would result in much lower extra costs.

In the end, we are going to use the data to reapportion state representation in the House of Representatives.  That’s a once-a-decade task, one that greatly impacts the kind of policies this nation will adopt, and getting it right would be well worth the additional cost.  We can certainly pay for it by cutting out some or all of the earmarks in the upcoming Defense appropriation, or even a few in this appropriation.

Update II: My friend Michael Stickings at the liberal blog The Reaction also wonders why the Census doesn’t already ask this question, which he sees as entirely legitimate for its constitutional purpose.

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Comment pages: 1 2

Are there enough illegals in Nevada to save Reid’s bacon?

forest on October 15, 2009 at 11:40 AM

It was a nice republic while it lasted.

LibTired on October 15, 2009 at 11:40 AM

This amendment needs a vote so we can see how our Senators support and defend the Constitution.

We do need this vote, but I think we all know where most senators stand when it comes to defending the constitution. The oath is just words nowadays. Nothing more.

WashJeff on October 15, 2009 at 11:40 AM

OT Proposal: Lets have a Sticky thread dedicated to LGF, it can be a contest to see who can make the most outrageous comment for CJ to post in faux outrage, which is apparently his new thing. Pulling comments from Hotair.

I’m disapointed this nut hasn’t picked one of my comments yet.

jp on October 15, 2009 at 11:41 AM

This amendment needs a vote so we can see how our Senators support and defend the Constitution.

Funniest line on HotAir this week!

Akzed on October 15, 2009 at 11:41 AM

forest on October 15, 2009 at 11:40 AM

Beat me to it.

OmahaConservative on October 15, 2009 at 11:41 AM

Critics will say that the Census is not an enforcement agency for immigration, and they’d be correct. However, no one says that the Census Bureau has to act as an enforcement agency, either.

Exactly. Just don’t count them.

It’s insane that anyone, from either party, would try to count illegal immigrants in the census.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 11:42 AM

Illegal immigrants, doing the job dead people won’t do.

The Dems are bound and determined to remain in power, remain in office, by any means short of an honest vote.

fogw on October 15, 2009 at 11:43 AM

It’s very important that illegals are counted in the census for a range of reasons beyond the constitutional requirement. I would think that there is an easy way for them to be counted without having that count included in apportioning congressional representation. Of course it would be great if they all left the country but that isn’t realistic.

lexhamfox on October 15, 2009 at 11:43 AM

Are there enough illegals in Nevada to save Reid’s bacon?

forest on October 15, 2009 at 11:40 AM

There isn’t enough sand in Nevada to save his ass. Trust me.

VegasRick on October 15, 2009 at 11:43 AM

The only reason Vitter wants illegals counted seperately is because he wants to know where to find some cheap latina hookers!

Norman Blizter on October 15, 2009 at 11:43 AM

I’m disapointed this nut hasn’t picked one of my comments yet.

jp on October 15, 2009 at 11:41 AM

You know what’s really funny – he’s culled a few comments from trolls/lefties and is posting them like they’re a representation of right-wing hate.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 11:44 AM

It was a nice republic while it lasted.

LibTired on October 15, 2009 at 11:40 AM

I completely agree….It’s over.

PatriotRider on October 15, 2009 at 11:44 AM

jp on October 15, 2009 at 11:41 AM

I asked Ed for that yesterday. To no avail. :(

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 11:45 AM

You know what’s really funny – he’s culled a few comments from trolls/lefties and is posting them like they’re a representation of right-wing hate.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 11:44 AM

That site has become a bad joke.

VegasRick on October 15, 2009 at 11:45 AM

Norman Blizter on October 15, 2009 at 11:43 AM

See, that’s the kind of jab that actually makes sense. Now, if you could just stick to that and stop smearing people as racists without any evidence everything would be ok.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 11:45 AM

We should count dead people who were buried too, since technically they are still citizens, just not very active.

Bishop on October 15, 2009 at 11:47 AM

The whoremonger speaks!

In an attempt to suppress Hispanic/Democratic political power and pork distribution, a man more famous the way he uses an organ not his brain than for anything else, has raised specious and irrelevant issues regarding the U.S. census.

Indeed the census is and should be a device to count everyone in America because that’s what we want to know, right/ How many people there are? Because, without accurate measurements, you can’t make good decisions.

Bleeds Blue on October 15, 2009 at 11:47 AM

lexhamfox on October 15, 2009 at 11:43 AM

The point is that they’re going to count them without asking legal status. So the ‘range of reasons’ you list for counting illegal immigrants is kind of a moot point.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 11:47 AM

Are there enough illegals in Nevada to save Reid’s bacon?

forest on October 15, 2009 at 11:40 AM

There isn’t enough sand in Nevada to save his ass. Trust me.

VegasRick on October 15, 2009 at 11:43 AM

But how about the bacon? Can we save the bacon????

WashJeff on October 15, 2009 at 11:47 AM

We should count dead people who were buried too, since technically they are still citizens, just not very active.

Bishop on October 15, 2009 at 11:47 AM

And voter rolls. Just assume if the person is on a voter roll, they are still alive.

WashJeff on October 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 11:44 AM

No. This is what’s funny.

When I think of the hours ‘nota bene’ spent going through LGF comments, copying, pasting, blockquoting, and writing precious little insults about each one … it is to laugh.

But today he’s going around cherry-picking unregistered comments from Republican blogs, and posting overheated, deliberately distorted attacks like this:

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 11:49 AM

Representation without Taxation? I want in on that deal.

Exurban Jon on October 15, 2009 at 11:49 AM

Indeed the census is and should be a device to count everyone in America because that’s what we want to know, right/ How many people there are? Because, without accurate measurements, you can’t make good decisions.

Bleeds Blue on October 15, 2009 at 11:47 AM

You know you showed up on LGF as a ‘right-wing racist’? Good stuff.

Your comment is exactly what Ed’s arguing. Count everyone for census purposes, but distinguish between legal and illegal. No punishment, no deportations. But no additional districts because you happen to have a lot of illegal immigrants in your state, either.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 11:49 AM

Why have laws at all…?

Sh%t, time to load the weapons and pillage the village!

YYYEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Seven Percent Solution on October 15, 2009 at 11:49 AM

I thought that was Acorn’s job along with registering them to vote as Democrats.

Hening on October 15, 2009 at 11:49 AM

Would California’s illegals have amounted to 3.2 million? That would be the upper reaches of estimates for illegal immigrants in the Golden State, but probably not outside the realm of possibility.

I wouldn’t be surprised by that number at all. In my rinky dink (Florida) county of 100K, more than 10% of the population is estimated to be illegals.

VibrioCocci on October 15, 2009 at 11:50 AM

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 11:49 AM

Are you (or someone else) arching all the 180s? Because I suspect CJ is going to just start deleting entire historical posts. He’s already got his minions going through old threads looking for comments he can destroy.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 11:50 AM

Indeed the census is and should be a device to count everyone in America because that’s what we want to know, right/ How many people there are?

So it makes sense to know how many people are illegal, right? So you know how many should not be represented, cuz, you know, they aren’t part of the electorate.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 11:50 AM

It’s not going to matter. La Raza and SEIU and the other illegal-alien advocacy groups will simply tell illegals to check the yes box for the question that asks “Are you a U.S. citizen or legal resident?” on the census form. They already tell them to do that on voter registration forms. They know nobody ever verifies the information.

Don’t underestimate how well-organized these people are, or how adept they are at manipulating and taking advantage of the flaws in our systems.

AZCoyote on October 15, 2009 at 11:51 AM

I agree with what Vitter is trying to do here, but won’t 90% of the illegals simply lie about their status if asked?

BuzzCrutcher on October 15, 2009 at 11:51 AM

Is there no problem that bringing in more illegals can’t solve?

TimBuk3 on October 15, 2009 at 11:51 AM

Perhaps Dems will settle for another 3/5th’s Compromise within their own party?

Odie1941 on October 15, 2009 at 11:51 AM

Are you (or someone else) arching all the 180s?

What’s this mean?

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 11:51 AM

In the first census were American Indians (a.k.a. native Americans) counted? As a separate category? Slaves were counted, correct? Because slaves in Southern states had constitutional status, yes?

Were American Indians counted as citizens? or resident aliens?

Skandia Recluse on October 15, 2009 at 11:52 AM

I guess the dems can’t do anything without cheating.

GFW on October 15, 2009 at 11:53 AM

What’s this mean?

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 11:51 AM

That was supposed to say archiving. Completely missed that on preview.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 11:55 AM

In the past haven’t we always just counted who was living in an area without regard to citizenship status? If they weren’t counted or applied for representation would illegals still be included in a total count? For some matters you just need to know how many total people are in an area.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 11:55 AM

Loony from the top down.

This eruption of LGF bashing at Daily Kos was triggered by the following article by Dean Barnett at the Daily Standard, pointing out how loony Daily Kos is from the top down: Kos Party.

Google site search is your friend.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 11:55 AM

Isn’t Reid aiding and abetting the commission of a crime here? These are still illegal aliens; no matter how the Democrats want to obfuscate that fact, they broke the law and continue to break the law.

Seems to me that makes Reid and the rest of his traitorous band eligible for immediate removal from office without pension, if not arrest, both for enabling the commission of a crime and perjury (lying when he took the oath of office).

Wouldn’t it be wonderful to see the USA become a nation of laws once again!

MrScribbler on October 15, 2009 at 11:55 AM

Errr…attach it to the “Health Care Bill”…

SouthernGent on October 15, 2009 at 11:56 AM

O/T Beck seems to have a huge bomb to drop tonight.

katy the mean old lady on October 15, 2009 at 11:56 AM

Illegal immigration is really the best example of how both parties have stopped being beholden to their voters and that the parties are only interested in their own self interest. Both sides have pushed for amnesty at one time or another. And even if their reasons for it are different on the surface, at the core, it’s the same: votes. For a subject that across party lines polls so strongly against, both parties get it completely WRONG and often.

If Vitter is successful I’ll be very very surprised.

oddjob1138 on October 15, 2009 at 11:57 AM

What’s this mean?

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 11:51 AM

Archiving flip flops. 180 degrees.

WashJeff on October 15, 2009 at 11:57 AM

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 11:55 AM

Ah. I see. Nah, I’m not doing it. I know he’s deleted a few of them already, but there are so many. The web archive will be your friend if he deletes too many of them.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 11:55 AM

For voting and district apportionment, you need to know who are legal and who can vote. Count the illegals, fine. But for house seats and districts, only include those who can – you know – vote.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 11:57 AM

Well, according to archives.gov American Indians were not included, or were not identified in the census until 1860.

So any precedent would go both ways, count the illegals, but identify them as such. How accurate, how truthful the respondents, would that be?

Skandia Recluse on October 15, 2009 at 11:57 AM

O/T Beck seems to have a huge bomb to drop tonight.

katy the mean old lady on October 15, 2009 at 11:56 AM

What are you hearing?

VegasRick on October 15, 2009 at 11:58 AM

Census taker:

“Are you a Citizen of the United States?”

Illegal alien:

“Since I was in the 5th grade, I have been taught that the United States illegally stole the Mexican land called Aztlan. The Mexican Consulate tells me that I have every right to be here, and for injustice of the past, collecting welfare, food stamps, free housing, emergency room health care, and free education for my kids is my right. If you don’t like it, go back to Europe, or else I will vote Republican!”

Census taker:

“I’ll take that as a ‘Yes’, and thank you for voting Democrat.”

Seven Percent Solution on October 15, 2009 at 11:58 AM

Imperial purge of lunatics.

Not to mention the bald-faced hypocrisy of launching such an attack the day after MyDD partner Daily Kos carried out an imperial purge of lunatics from his site.

It’s actually comedic. Google site search is awesome for LGF these days.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:00 PM

People realize that most illegal aliens are from Latin America, but it’s an oft-forgotten fact that a large portion of them are from the native (i.e. Indian) population of those countries. There is a good reason for that: the native population in Latin American countries tends to be much poorer than the descendants of the Spanish conquerors. So for those teeming masses at least there need be no special legislation to exclude them from the Census (at least for enumeration purposes). The reason is Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 of the United States Constitution, which states that

Representatives [...] shall be apportioned among the several States [...] according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons [...] and excluding Indians not taxed [...].

Just another useless factoid.

factoid on October 15, 2009 at 12:00 PM

Counting them is fine, adding them to census numbers is not. But by all means, count how many there really are so we know what we are dealing with.

Mr. Joe on October 15, 2009 at 12:00 PM

The whoremonger speaks!

Finally, “BleedsBlue” warns people when he posts!

Crawford on October 15, 2009 at 12:01 PM

Crawford on October 15, 2009 at 12:01 PM

Ha! Excellent!

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:01 PM

What are you hearing?

VegasRick on October 15

Something about Anita Dunn and media cotrol.He doesn’t want to read it now. He’s beside himself!

katy the mean old lady on October 15, 2009 at 12:02 PM

The left through environism is encroaching upon democracy for Marxist victory. One of their chess pieces is bio-diversity whereby all species are equal in rights. A boy is a dog is a rat. I fully expect them to start counting animals in the census soon, now that their game of dead voters has been exposed.

Don L on October 15, 2009 at 12:03 PM

Critics will say that the Census DHS is not an enforcement agency for immigration, and they’d be correct.

FIFY. Janet Napolitano has tied the hands of Immigration Enforcement to make sure the illegals can still benefit from entitlement programs and vote for the democratic party.

More importantly, though, is the core purpose of the Census itself. The Constitution requires the Census to properly calculate the legal population in order to apportion representation in the House for the states.

Constitution? What’s that?
-obooba and the democratic party….

HornetSting on October 15, 2009 at 12:03 PM

Upset about being called racist - based upon comments.

Looks like their campaign to get all our advertisers to dump us hasn’t worked, so the lovely folks at Markos “Screw Them” Zuniga’s site are calling us fascists, Nazis, and racists again. This post at Daily Kos cherry-picks several comments from a long thread of more than 340, ignoring all context

These are all just on page 1 of my google search.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:04 PM

katy the mean old lady on October 15, 2009 at 12:02 PM

Thanks, looking forward to seeing it.

VegasRick on October 15, 2009 at 12:04 PM

For voting and district apportionment, you need to know who are legal and who can vote. Count the illegals, fine. But for house seats and districts, only include those who can – you know – vote.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 11:57 AM

Ok. But it still depends on people being honest enough to admit on a federal form that they aren’t here illegally or giving the census workers access to enough other data to verify that independently without abusing any of that access or data. I’m not sure I would hold my breath on either of those.

I’ll stick by history. Count everybody.

Representatives have historically represented populations that reach beyond voters – women before suffrage, minors before majority, etc. The 3/5 compromise and the inclusion of Native Americans also seem reasonable precedent for including non-voters in the count.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:05 PM

that they aren’t here illegally

correction. sorry.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:06 PM

The illegal alien is the new Progressive mascot.

visions on October 15, 2009 at 12:06 PM

LGF readers have no life.

And they’ve found someone who has no life to cherry pick through 2,634,139+ comments to prove it.

LOL.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:07 PM

Just another useless factoid.

factoid on October 15, 2009 at 12:00 PM

Are you saying that census workers should start asking who is mestizo, creole, etc. and determining who to count? *grin*

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:07 PM

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:05 PM

So women who can’t vote and children are roughly equivalent to people who live here illegally? Gotcha.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:08 PM

The only reason Vitter wants illegals counted seperately is because he wants to know where to find some cheap latina hookers!

Norman Blizter on October 15, 2009 at 11:43 AM

We’ll just send Vitter to YOUR house. Make sure you shave, Blitzer.

HornetSting on October 15, 2009 at 12:08 PM

Norman Blizter on October 15, 2009 at 11:43 AM

The intelligence level of our leftist trolls keeps dropping, doesn’t it? I thought, last open cycle, we got some good ones. But, once again, we need a better class of troll.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:10 PM

Off topic – just learned from my daughter attending Texas A&M University that Pres. Bush has invited Obama to his Library for a forum on community service this Friday (tomorrow)in College Station. My husband and I will be driving down from Dallas area to attend protest on campus, but was wondering why Daddy Bush would give Obama the time of day after all of the horrible things Obama and people in his administration have said about his son. Politicians are a different bread — guess that trumps being a dad.

texasaggie on October 15, 2009 at 12:10 PM

The intelligence level of our leftist trolls keeps dropping, doesn’t it? I thought, last open cycle, we got some good ones. But, once again, we need a better class of troll.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:10 PM

We may just have to be satisfied that this is the best they have to offer.

gwelf on October 15, 2009 at 12:13 PM

So women who can’t vote and children are roughly equivalent to people who live here illegally? Gotcha.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:08 PM

They are if representatives represent the general population rather than just the population of individuals with voting rights. And that seems to be how we’ve treated it in the past. Senators represent states and representatives represent population counts – not citizen counts – not voter counts – but rather general population counts.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:14 PM

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:05 PM

Ok fine – but then we get to count aborted babies as residents of conservative districts. If we’re going to be sly about gerrymandering lets do it right.

gwelf on October 15, 2009 at 12:14 PM

I’ll stick by history. Count everybody.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:05 PM

Yes. Count everybody for informational purposes, and determine legal residents for census purposes. I don’t get why that’s a difficult concept.

The toughest part would be the practical application. Most people would just tell the census worker they’re here legally. That’s not really a reason not to ask, though.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 12:15 PM

This upside down pyramid that the left is building is looking better and better. Sooner or later a wind is going to blow it over.

Limerick on October 15, 2009 at 12:16 PM

They are if representatives represent the general population rather than just the population of individuals with voting rights. And that seems to be how we’ve treated it in the past. Senators represent states and representatives represent population counts – not citizen counts – not voter counts – but rather general population counts.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:14 PM

Hey – we have troops in Germany so we should probably count German citizens too. Same goes for Iraq and Afghanistan. We wouldn’t want these people to go without representation seeing as how our government effects their lives.

gwelf on October 15, 2009 at 12:16 PM

Ok fine – but then we get to count aborted babies as residents of conservative districts. If we’re going to be sly about gerrymandering lets do it right.

gwelf on October 15, 2009 at 12:14 PM

Sure… if they’re still alive. Abortion implies dead. I understand the frustration here but history and precedent say we count everybody.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:17 PM

This amendment needs a vote so we can see how our Senators support and defend the Constitution.

So true…If for no other reason then to know !!

jerrytbg on October 15, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Hey – we have troops in Germany so we should probably count German citizens too. Same goes for Iraq and Afghanistan. We wouldn’t want these people to go without representation seeing as how our government effects their lives.

gwelf on October 15, 2009 at 12:16 PM

Again – I hear your frustration but history and precedent says we count all within our borders. There is a specific exclusion – Indians not taxed and only 3/5 of slaves. Nothing specifies that only citizens be counted. This would have been highly relevant at that time and I think they would have included it.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:19 PM

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:14 PM

They represent people who are eligible to vote. If you just count everyone who happens to be sitting around in a district at the time of the count, it’s ripe for abuse and fraud. Surely that does not need to be explained.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:19 PM

It looks like they ain’t gonna make 2010, but you can be sure they will pull out all the stops to get those racially oppressed new voters on the rolls for the 2012 election. This is of central importance to them, even more so than the voter fraud arm. By the way I believe ACORN will start getting more government funds again in November…no kidding.

cjk on October 15, 2009 at 12:21 PM

The original Constitution counted slaves as 2/3 of a person for purposes of State representation in Congress. If Reid counts each illegal as a whole person, then Reid is a racist!

Liam on October 15, 2009 at 12:21 PM

They represent people who are eligible to vote. If you just count everyone who happens to be sitting around in a district at the time of the count, it’s ripe for abuse and fraud. Surely that does not need to be explained.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:19 PM

So we didn’t count women before suffrage? And we don’t count minors? And we don’t count felons serving time? ONLY count people eligible to vote … it’s patently untrue that we only count people who can vote. We count lots of people who can’t vote or have even been forbidden by law from voting. If you only count people with franchise we would have a hell of a lot less than any of the official counts out there.

We’re bucking history and tradition here – that’s not a problem as long as our reasons are sound but we shouldn’t pretend that we aren’t asking to change the rules of the game.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:23 PM

dieudonne

Count them, yes. Reapportion seats in house by citizens ONLY. Duh?

JAM on October 15, 2009 at 12:23 PM

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Just counting everyone is going to give a place like Orlando, that routinely has a ton of tourists, an over representation. I don’t really get the logic, but your overall point is well taken.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 12:25 PM

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:23 PM

You need to distinguish what you mean by count. Do you mean count them on the census, or count them for purposes of redistricting?

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 12:26 PM

Just counting everyone is going to give a place like Orlando, that routinely has a ton of tourists, an over representation. I don’t really get the logic, but your overall point is well taken.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 12:25 PM

They only count residents – not tourists or people passing through. “Do you live at this address.” Nor do they visit hotels, hostels, campgrounds, etc.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:26 PM

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:23 PM

I think I’ve already answered this. Yes, they are counted, but no they are not part of the county for reassigning house seats.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 12:25 PM

Totally.

We’re bucking history and tradition here – that’s not a problem as long as our reasons are sound but we shouldn’t pretend that we aren’t asking to change the rules of the game.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:23 PM

History says that blacks are 3/5 of a person, too. Or are you only really concerned about tradition when you think it’ll benefit you?

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:27 PM

Norman Blizter on October 15, 2009 at 11:43 AM

getalife, is that you sweetie? Please go tend to your DEPEND® diaper; its starting to put out a really bad stench.

OmahaConservative on October 15, 2009 at 12:27 PM

They only count residents – not tourists or people passing through. “Do you live at this address.” Nor do they visit hotels, hostels, campgrounds, etc.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:26 PM

By definition, illegal aliens are not residents.

Glad you finally agree with common sense. Geesh.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:27 PM

Again – I hear your frustration but history and precedent says we count all within our borders. There is a specific exclusion – Indians not taxed and only 3/5 of slaves. Nothing specifies that only citizens be counted. This would have been highly relevant at that time and I think they would have included it.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:19 PM

It wasn’t an issue they would have addressed because there were no ‘illegals’. The 2/3 was an appeasement to the South in order to get the Constitution ratified in the first place. The Indians are actually the closest classification to modern illegals so they probably would’ve been against their full representation or any representation at all.

cjk on October 15, 2009 at 12:29 PM

You need to distinguish what you mean by count. Do you mean count them on the census, or count them for purposes of redistricting?

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 12:26 PM

Both. Historically we have counted all people that reside – without regard to franchise, citizenship, or any other status – and then we apportion the reps. Franchise is limited after the fact.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:29 PM

WTF

xler8bmw on October 15, 2009 at 12:29 PM

They only count residents – not tourists or people passing through. “Do you live at this address.” Nor do they visit hotels, hostels, campgrounds, etc.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:26 PM

Is that true? How do they count the homeless? What about people here on a student visa? Work visa? The census takes a long time to complete, so how do they account for people moving in the middle of it?

I’m not that familiar with how it works, so these are honest questions. And I get your larger point, but just counting all ‘residents’ of an area seems to fly right in the face of logic and common sense.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 12:33 PM

There’s nothing in the US Const. census clause that requires people to be US citizens to be counted in the census. Sorry, but true. Pre 14th A, the constitution did exclude Native Americans (not taxed), so presumably there could be some rationale for excluding illegals, but that provision was wiped with the 3/5th compromise.

Historically illegals do not participate in the census because they prefer to fly under the radar anyway; not sure that would change as a practical matter.

All this means is that there is not necessarily a good constitutional argument here. So, if we have to count them, use the information in other ways.

Firefly_76 on October 15, 2009 at 12:33 PM

The Indians are actually the closest classification to modern illegals
cjk on October 15, 2009 at 12:29 PM

I nominate this for dumbest HA comment of the day thus far.

crr6 on October 15, 2009 at 12:35 PM

What don’t you get? Vitter agrees w/counting them. He wants them to ask whether or not they are a legal US resident. That is all. They are, of course, free to lie. But when it comes to apportioning seats in the House, this is very important. Sanctuary states should not be rewarded w/more seats b/c they break the law. We’re basically rewarding Calif. for breaking immigration law!

JAM on October 15, 2009 at 12:35 PM

More importantly, though, is the core purpose of the Census itself. The Constitution requires the Census to properly calculate the legal population in order to apportion representation in the House for the states. Not only does counting illegal immigrants have no legitimacy for that purpose, it penalizes those states who act to enforce American law and reward those that act as “sanctuaries” in defiance of the law and national security.

Shouldn’t it do both? Count everyone, so we can get an accurate idea of who shouldn’t be here, but apportion representation based only on legal residents.

James on October 15, 2009 at 12:37 PM

Is that true? How do they count the homeless? What about people here on a student visa? Work visa? The census takes a long time to complete, so how do they account for people moving in the middle of it?

I’m not that familiar with how it works, so these are honest questions. And I get your larger point, but just counting all ‘residents’ of an area seems to fly right in the face of logic and common sense.

BadgerHawk on October 15, 2009 at 12:33 PM

I just don’t have all those answers but I’m sure they can be found. I called census bureau with similar questions and they had no trouble finding out. It’s usually in a some rule book someplace. Practically speaking they may take some time to get back to you as, chances are, they only know the rules and guidelines specific to their job.

For people moving in the middle of the census… If a form was mailed to you and you have had the USPS forward your mail that shouldn’t be a problem. If you don’t send a form back a census worker is sent to your address.

For the homeless – I don’t recall the specifics but they do visit hostels and shelters. Many states also have residency stipulations. That is if you spend 10, 15, 30 days or so in a homeless shelter it is considered your permanent address.

dieudonne on October 15, 2009 at 12:39 PM

JAM on October 15, 2009 at 12:35 PM

OK, but reps are apportioned according to the numbers of free persons counted in the states (no express requirement of citizenship).

If we had a properly functioning federal government interested in enforcement, maybe it could discount federal funding according to the numbers of illegals resident in the states.

Firefly_76 on October 15, 2009 at 12:40 PM

I am very sorry to say this, but it seems as though illegals must be counted by law. See Cornell’s pages for the US CODE. In particular, it calls for a “tabulation of total population by States”. Note well the use of the word “total.” Also consider the US Constitution in which it states:

“[An] Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct.”

There seems little reason to suggest illegals should not be counted and furthermore providing them with Congressional Reps. without a Constitutional Amendment.

Dr Snooze on October 15, 2009 at 12:40 PM

I nominate this for dumbest HA comment of the day thus far.

crr6 on October 15, 2009 at 12:35 PM

Your “limited government” quip is far more retarded. Don’t cut yourself short.

lorien1973 on October 15, 2009 at 12:41 PM

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