Bait and switch: Now health-care reform won’t solve deficit problem
posted at 10:55 am on October 13, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Henry J. Aaron and Isabel Sawhill attempt to switch directions on deficit issues in today’s Washington Post, trying to sell higher taxes as the long-term solution to America’s fiscal woes. In doing so, Aaron reverses his past statements on the nature of the deficit, when he claimed that the deficit was entirely caused by health-care costs. Now, however, ObamaCare won’t be nearly enough to undo deficit spending, and Aaron and Sawhill pump for a value-added tax (VAT) on top of all the other new and higher taxes Americans will pay:
Anyone who thinks that health-care reform alone is going to close the massive current — and even larger projected — U.S. budget deficit is deluded.
Really? Here’s Aaron on April 12, 2007, in a presentation for Brookings:
- There is a long term fiscal problem; all of it is health care
- There is no entitlement crisis other than health care
This analysis helped drive the push for a government-imposed overhaul of the private-sector health-care industry in the first place. Supposedly, such a “reform” would solve our deficit spending problem, which is why the federal government claimed jurisdiction for such legislation in the first place. Now, however, people who bought that argument are deluded.
President Obama has pledged that health-care reform will not make matters worse. But that isn’t good enough. There is no way to restore this nation to fiscal health without higher taxes — for the middle class as well as for the rich. The only question is when. Those increases should be enacted now, phased in gradually after the recovery is well established, and tied to the increased spending that health-care reform will generate.
And here’s Aaron from the same presentation in 2007:
… since taxes are assumed to remain a constant share of GDP, projections show no other long-term budget problem.
But now that we’ve begun working on health-care reform, suddenly Aaron acknowledges that it will increase spending, and that Congress needs to raise taxes as a result. Reform itself won’t solve the deficit crisis, Aaron now argues. Only the deluded would have believed it in the first place!
I contacted Chuck Blahous of the Hudson Institute for a comment, and he replied:
We are witnessing perhaps the most ambitious, and damaging, bait-and-switch in federal fiscal policy history. For the past few years, some have irresponsibly argued that we have no long-term spending problem that can’t be fixed by comprehensive health care reform. This fallacy was used to provide cover to politicians who wanted to duck responsibility for addressing unsustainable spending growth elsewhere in the budget, including Social Security. Those who bothered to scrutinize the canard understood that this could only lead to massive tax increases. Now that it’s clear that health care reform won’t fix our budget problems, the mask is slipping off. We need either to get serious about tackling rising spending – meaning both Social Security reform, and health reform that reduces rather than expands federal commitments – or the American people are going to be taxed like they’ve never been taxed before.
Andrew Biggs all but predicted this outcome:
Some claim that health care cost growth is by far the dominant source of projected increases in overall entitlement program costs, using that claim to justify a far-reaching overhaul of both public and private health care provision. . . . While reasonable changes in assumptions or methodology could easily swing the balance of influence in either direction, it is clear that aging does not play the minor role in driving entitlement spending that purveyors of the new consensus purport. . . . The recent work of the CBO in exploring health care cost and quality issues in new detail is of great value, but neither task should be taken as an excuse to ignore the direct financing challenges of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
VAT is a consumption tax that will be much more regressive than people think. Basically a sales tax, it encourages people to save money, and that will be much easier for those with larger percentages of disposable income. It discourages purchasing, which will dampen retail business, while soaking those who can least afford it — the working and middle classes. The wealthy will simply curtail consumption and wait for a more propitious moment to spend.
How does that square with Barack Obama’s pledge that people making under $250,000 a year won’t see “one dime” in increased taxation? He already broke that pledge with higher cigarette taxes, but this would hit broadly across the entire spectrum of American voters. Every time they bought something, the voters will be reminded of that broken pledge.
Obama should ignore the 2009 version of Aaron. In fact, he should also ignore the 2007 version, inasmuch as Aaron does the same.
Update: Bruce Kesler notes that Aaron’s not the only one doing contortions over their previous statements on health-care reform.









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If the country institures a VAT I’m out. Not out as in leaving the country, but out as in going Galt. I’ll start growing my own damn food if I have to.
BadgerHawk on October 13, 2009 at 10:58 AM
Henry Aaron must be 103 years old. Seriously, I didn’t know he was still alive.
He was wrong about Reagan’s tax cuts in the 1980s and he is wrong today.
rockmom on October 13, 2009 at 10:59 AM
Obama is the Barney Fife of economics….
PatriotRider on October 13, 2009 at 11:01 AM
The health care bill is like roadkill. The longer it sits in the sun, the worse it smells.
Vashta.Nerada on October 13, 2009 at 11:01 AM
Spending more money will help the deficit? No kidding.
Mr. Joe on October 13, 2009 at 11:03 AM
Following liberal thinking is confusing. But apparently they find no contradiction in it.
I’d be very upset if I was shallow enough to change course as often as liberals do.
hawksruleva on October 13, 2009 at 11:03 AM
I agree Badgerhawk. But let them bring their taxes. See where it gets them. They’re already a self-parody. Of course it all depends on how effective the Right proves as parodists.
rrpjr on October 13, 2009 at 11:04 AM
Great baseball player, deluded economist.
hawksruleva on October 13, 2009 at 11:04 AM
These people are so shameless, so intellectually dishonest that one wonders why they are not laughed off of the public stage.
How many mulligans do you get? How many times will the public give you the time of day after you’ve been shown to (1) not know what you’re talking about or (2) manipulate public opinion by stating a proposition as a fact only to say that the same is not true later when necessary for your supported point of view?
Revenant on October 13, 2009 at 11:05 AM
That’s not good. The GOP can’t even coordinate its message, much less effectively mock the contradictory policies of their opponent.
hawksruleva on October 13, 2009 at 11:05 AM
Okay, so it’s not going to solve the deficit, it’s not going to cover the uninsured, it’s going to require rationing, and it’s going to make everyone’s costs go up?
Why was this needed?
Juno77 on October 13, 2009 at 11:05 AM
If higher cigarette taxes are Obama’s fault, please, Mr. Obama, more of it. Thank you.
unclesmrgol on October 13, 2009 at 11:05 AM
Because most of the public is not paying attention, and many of them think they have a vested financial interest in keeping the Dems in power.
hawksruleva on October 13, 2009 at 11:06 AM
To help Dems control poor voters via health care planning and spending, and get more lobbying dollars from the health care industry.
hawksruleva on October 13, 2009 at 11:07 AM
First they passed high cigarette taxes, but I wasn’t a smoker…
jimmy2shoes on October 13, 2009 at 11:07 AM
I find it unbelievable that Americans are picking their noses while this is being done.
Sure, I realize that 53% of those who voted in November 2008 voted for Obama, but there really aren’t more than, say, 30% to 35% of the country that believes deep down that this is a good thing. But, c’mon, 65%. If this thing is enacted, it has to be repealed as soon as possible.
BuckeyeSam on October 13, 2009 at 11:08 AM
The standard-issue response to the Obama Administrations shameless frauds and manipulations:
“YOU LIE!”
profitsbeard on October 13, 2009 at 11:09 AM
i don’t really like higher taxes on anything. let people smoke until their lungs collapse. let them drink till their livers explode. let them eat high fattening foods till they reach size 64 in waist.
Ghoul aid on October 13, 2009 at 11:10 AM
Is that the same Henry Aaron who played for the Braves?
If so, strike three.
Steve Z on October 13, 2009 at 11:11 AM
It’s getting harder and harder to laugh at these people.
The dems look like fascists.
Fascism:
1.
a.A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.
Stephanie on October 13, 2009 at 11:13 AM
How do the Dems not get destroyed in midterms, governor’s races, and the 2012 Presidential election if they institute a VAT? At least with income taxes, nearly half the country isn’t paying any, so they may not mind.
Doughboy on October 13, 2009 at 11:13 AM
Hello? I always considered Obama’s statement that we need to pass Obamacare urgently (meaning sneak it under our noses now) so that we could save the economy was the funniest think he ever said! (And that’s saying something!) It is just absurd on the face of it, yet “reporters” just went right along. Can you imagine if Bush had said that?
Christian Conservative on October 13, 2009 at 11:13 AM
Bring in….Rush Limbaugh / Paul Shanklin.
PappaMac on October 13, 2009 at 11:13 AM
Higher taxes = less jobs = less taxable revenue coming in = increased deficit.
Blake on October 13, 2009 at 11:16 AM
ahh yes the two of the one-two punch, the VAT
if they seriously think they can get away with VAT they ARE deluded, I can only imagine the tea party will be held should they even try it before 2010
my blood pressure goes up just thinking about a VAT
frakkers
ginaswo on October 13, 2009 at 11:17 AM
this was needed to increase SEIU and thereby ensure future elections for Dems, a la NHS being the biggest employer in UK
ginaswo on October 13, 2009 at 11:18 AM
The seeds of the tax revolts that Gerald Celente predicted are coming to pass.
True_King on October 13, 2009 at 11:18 AM
If the country institures a VAT I’m out. Not out as in leaving the country, but out as in going Galt. I’ll start growing my own damn food if I have to.
BadgerHawk on October 13, 2009 at 10:58 AM
Nice try buddy, you don’t think the geniuses in DC over looked the possibilty of Americans shunning governmental benevolence in favor of self-suficiency do you? Expect Cass Sunstein’s desire to outlaw all hunting and fishing right after this….
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-875
That’s right, in the name of your own well being, Congress in it’s magnicance has decided that it is against the law to grow your own food. I kid you not.
This has passed the house around the same time the Child Safety Act did. For all intents and purposes making garage sales illegal by way of making “safety compliance” exorbinantly expensive, that T-shirt for $0.50 would a $300.00 certification of blah, blah, blah.
This administration’s intent is to make reliance upon them absolute. Where you health, education, transportation, unionized employment, your very survival is utterly and completely dependant on them.
Atlas, meets Orwell and shares the soma.
http://www.springhillks.org/resale%20law.pdf
Archimedes on October 13, 2009 at 11:19 AM
To give Democrats control over another part of the economy. And control that will eventually include unionization of as many workers as possible, which will lead to more union dues and union contributions to Dem politicians.
Wethal on October 13, 2009 at 11:20 AM
Hahahahahaha. What a moron. Of course there is another way to restore the nation to fiscal health: CUT SPENDING.
AZCoyote on October 13, 2009 at 11:20 AM
I saw a snippet of an Olympia Snowe interview in the hallway on her way to this fiasco called a committee hearing/vote today. She seems pissed the industry released this “self serving” report, when they will gain NINE MILLION new customers with this bill. She was saying some mumbo jumbo about how they will get huge profit increases as a result.
2 observations
1) NINE MILLION???? Why are we turning this industry upside down when it barely solves 1/3 of the “uninsured” problem, excluding even the 15 million illegals that we KNOW Congress will find a way to include when it is all said and done. So bottom line, nine million is only 20% of the uninsured problem. So this rips the cover off the facade that they are doing this to solve the uninsured problem.
2) She seems really pissed that this report was released talking about how much the cost will go up for the average american family. If she was so concerned, they should take a week and let the CBO evaluate this report and issue their own “rebuttal” or “confirmation” report.
Better idea, just STOP THIS INSANITY NOW!!!!!!!!
However, based on this interview, I fear this deluded waste of RINO space in the Senate plans to vote this out of committee.
karenhasfreedom on October 13, 2009 at 11:20 AM
FYI, Both acts cited above still pending in the Senate.
Archimedes on October 13, 2009 at 11:20 AM
For the consumer it becomes a sales tax but my understanding is that the VAT is collected at every step in the manufacturing process on the “added value” of the product produced. That means the consumer is paying multiple VATs by the time a product with components finally gets into their hand.
highhopes on October 13, 2009 at 11:22 AM
“Everything inside the state. Nothing outide the state.”
I think it was Mussolini who said that, and Josh Godberg’s book “Liberal Fascism” was well-named.
Wethal on October 13, 2009 at 11:22 AM
I actually like the prospect of the Democrats imposing a VAT. Once they do, they’ll become deeply unpopular, allowing a return of a Republican controlled government, who can then lower income and capital gains tax.
year_of_the_dingo on October 13, 2009 at 11:24 AM
Mike Huckabee’s radio spot likened this to your last meal before the electric chair. Yes, they will initially get more new customers but the rates will be astronomical essentially killing off private insurance which is what the filthy lying coward, Chris Dodd, and even Max Bacus really want to do here.
highhopes on October 13, 2009 at 11:24 AM
Good! This means new democrat NC senator Kay Hagan won’t vote for the bill! She promised not to vote for it if it increased the deficit!
/
SouthernGent on October 13, 2009 at 11:25 AM
Bingo
I think (unfortunately) they can do it.
(see BuckeyeSam on October 13, 2009 at 11:08 AM)
nolapol on October 13, 2009 at 11:26 AM
It wouldn’t happen till after the midterms. I’m not counting on the GOP to show much more common sense on spending than in the past. still too much trash,..see Lindsey Graham’s recent support for cap and trade.
a capella on October 13, 2009 at 11:27 AM
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!
nolapol on October 13, 2009 at 11:28 AM
Serious question…really would like a serious answer:
How is it that the canard that “health care reform” was going to save us from our fiscal crisis ever got any attention at all? It doesn’t even pass the smell test of making sense, unless I am missing something huge. Right now our government spends no money insuring the masses of the people (I know about medicaid and medicare, but they are not for the general populace). So, that being the case, if they start with no expense, and end up with a new expense (public health insurance/single payor system), how can anyone with any kind of intellectual honesty accept the premise that this new expense will save us money?
samuelrylander on October 13, 2009 at 11:28 AM
When you have the State Controlled Media on your side, the truth of past results goes straight down the memory hole.
Fortunately, things are getting bad enough that even the Joe & Jane Six-packs are beginning to notice, ‘something ain’t right around here’.
Will it make a difference?
That’s the burning question of the day.
CPT. Charles on October 13, 2009 at 11:28 AM
Glenn Beck made a point on his show yesterday.
The REAL REASON we have health care reform being shoved down our throats is to payoff the unions. Apparently the unions that provide health care have an issue looming where they have severely underfunded their retiree health care benefits looming in the near future.
Whoopsie, so we have to incur a TRILLION DOLLAR government program because the unions mis-managed their finances?
GRRRRRRR
karenhasfreedom on October 13, 2009 at 11:29 AM
I was listening to Laura Ingraham this morning and almost wrecked my car when her guest mentioned that people in Massachusetts had said they were now working night jobs, (in addition to their real job), to pay for their insurance since their health care legistration was passed in their state. At issue was that the law requires everyone to have a certain amount of coverage, regardless of age or health, and they were only carrying urgent care insurance, as they were young and healthy. Does this sound anything like the garbage the federal government is trying to cram down our throats?
Well, I refuse to get a night job to pay for health insurance! We have great coverage as my husband works for a school district, but I hear our rates are going up.
This has got to be stopped, it is insane, and I am so angry that our Congress and the WH are so damned determined to take control of our lives like this!
Susanboo on October 13, 2009 at 11:30 AM
This is what they are counting on. The average liberal voter and the words “intellectual honesty” are mutual exclusive.
karenhasfreedom on October 13, 2009 at 11:32 AM
That’s just it, there is no intellectual honesty. There is no true debate, and a majority of Americans don’t pay attention at all. I truly believe this is more about the overall power structure (struggle) for the country than it is about one particular issue. The Progressives are in control and they are pushing hard and fast for programs and laws that will keep them in power, as well as, change the country to their ideological views.
nolapol on October 13, 2009 at 11:35 AM
Ah, the old “Hatred for Cigarettes Makes One a NAZI” meme.
Seen it. Ok, anything else?
unclesmrgol on October 13, 2009 at 11:37 AM
Any politician that says there is a revenue and not a spending problem should be removed from office immediately.
jukin on October 13, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Utter BullS&!t
BigMike252 on October 13, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Just like our fiscally conscious “public servants” repealed FDR’s wasteful, socialist programs? Same way a later generation saved us from LBJ’s profligate giveaways?
It never happens. There are people in the USA eagerly awaiting another “entitlement,” complete with government cheese and givebacks to the protected classes.
The only way Osama Obama’s destructive, traitorous policies can be stopped is for them to be shut down before they are enacted.
I’m afraid that will require massive protests and civil disobedience on a scale never before seen in this country. If so, I’ll be rolling my pennies so I can join the patriots in D.C.
MrScribbler on October 13, 2009 at 11:40 AM
This may sound like blasphemy, but don’t lop off my head just yet:
Put aside the Democrats’ disastrous healthcare and “stimulus” packages and the astounding deficits.
Put aside your natural aversion to new taxes.
Focus just on the choice between income taxes and VAT.
A VAT is better. I believe a large majority of economists — including conservative economists — agree that it leads to greater economic efficiency and less distortion of market incentives (at least that was the case when I briefly studied it in an economics class in the mid-eighties). The VAT taxes consumption. It does not tax savings, or investment. It is not progressive. It captures black-market income as it is spent — increasing the tax base.
Now, I understand the fear: The Dems want a VAT and an income tax so they can tax more and more.
But consider this: If the Republicans ever tried to introduce a VAT with the stated objective of replacing the income tax, the Dems would rail (as they always do) that the GOP was protecting the rich, seeking tax cuts for fat cats, etc., etc. Look how far the “flat tax” idea has gone. But if the Democrats introduce the VAT, the GOP can rail against the tax-and-spend Democrats and have another issue to run on in 2010.
Then when the Republicans regain control (as they inevitably, but not immeditely, will), the income tax can be cut to offset the VAT. The result will be a flatter and more efficient tax structure. Whenever the Democrats want to raise txes, the GOP can fight more fiercely and effectively against increased income taxes and perhaps less fiercely and effectively against an increased VAT. Slowly, the VAT could replace the income tax. At some point, doing away with the IRS and tax returns would be a plausible option, and not a right-wing fantasy.
Yes, the VAT is a more “hidden” tax. That makes it insidious in some ways, but it also makes it politically easier to shift taxes from income to VAT. I believe it also makes it harder to manipulate the tax code to give away favors to classes of individuals (although specific industries can still be helped or hindered under a VAT just as easily as under the current corporate income tax).
So, as an economic conservative and a fan of the VAT, I hope the Democrats pass this one, and that the GOP cynicaly exploits it to the hilt: Opposing it for electoral purposes in 2010 and beyond, but then using it to supplant and eliminate the income tax down the road.
One last word to those who fear that we will have a VAT and an income tax: First, taxes go up and down with changes in the majorities and always will. Usually such changes do no lasting harm. Therefore, the possibility of a VAT should be viewed with far less alarm than the “healthcare” plan, which really could do nearly irreparable harm to multiple industries. Second, whether there are two tax collecting systems (VAT and income) or just one should not matter as much as the overall tax burden and the efficiency of the system. Keep your eye on the ball. Third, read-up a bit on the VAT before letting that knee-jerk. I really do believe that it is economically more sound, based on market principles.
SwampYankee on October 13, 2009 at 11:43 AM
In your perfect world, these people are responsible for their own healthcare, and have no loved ones to watch them die. My mom started when she was 12, and could never quit. My wife’s father started at the age of 3 (amusing the men in his village who did this as a joke) and never was able to quit either. Both wanted to, but they couldn’t Both died horrible deaths, with their families watching their last gasping minutes.
unclesmrgol on October 13, 2009 at 11:43 AM
I thought the whole health care reform legislation was supposed to address the 20 million uninsured. If there is 54 billion that could be saved with tort reform and untold billions saved with medicaid/medicare fraud elimination why don’t we focus on those issues.
fourdeucer on October 13, 2009 at 11:43 AM
The premise is that healthcare costs continue to rise, more individuals in an aging population means Medicare expenses are going up and “reform” is how you save the economy by curbing healthcare expenses. The premise goes on to claim untold wealth if it weren’t for the greedy insurance companies, inefficient delivery systems, and roving bands of tonsil pirates out to bilk the system.
Bottom line, the filthy lying coward and those who support state seizure of healthcare are making the claim that government is the solution to the problem. I’d defy you to name any problem where government programs provided the solution.
highhopes on October 13, 2009 at 11:43 AM
Good grief. If we institute the equivalent of a VAT, that’s the end of the line and it’s either revolt or crumble.
I’m going to take a much bigger interest in gardening come next spring, something tells me I’m gonna need to know how to get food that doesn’t come from a supermarket.
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 11:44 AM
Hey Ed,
I have a question. I recall Obama saying he wouldn’t raise “income taxes”, however, by letting the Bush tax cuts expire (2010)? he gets to say he didn’t raise taxes. When do the Bush tax cuts expire?
booter on October 13, 2009 at 11:44 AM
The Dems will never get a VAT passed after the midterms. Hell, they may not even have control of the House after next fall.
Aside from the Bush tax cuts expiring, the only chance they have at raising taxes is to do it next year.
Doughboy on October 13, 2009 at 11:45 AM
right…But it can’t be that so many people are willfully ignorant of what seems to be an obvious truth. The lefty politicians and the media took the last CBO report, stating that reform would save us 89 Billion (?) over the next 10 years and said, “See! See! It’s going to save us money.” I already understand about the disengenuous testing standards that were applied in analyzing the Baucus plan, but that aside, it just seems ludicrous (and I don’t mean the rapper) to me that so many people are ready to willingly bankrupt and destitute the entire country over a short term “benefit” of not having to pay for health care (b/c long term, a bankrupt country won’t be paying for healthcare, or anything else). Hence, I have this nagging feeling that there is some large peice of information I am not considering that would make this premise reasonable, at least on the surface. So, I guess a better way to phrase my question is, what am I missing? And if the answer is “nothing” that’s ok.
samuelrylander on October 13, 2009 at 11:45 AM
No new taxes or big changes are coming to Congress.
d1carter on October 13, 2009 at 11:46 AM
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/wm486.cfm
In 2001 and 2003, President George W. Bush proposed and Congress passed a series of tax cuts to reinvigorate the economy and reduce the government’s burden on workers’ paychecks. Because of opposition to these measures from some in Congress (guess who?), they were implemented as temporary tax cuts, all of which will expire by January 1, 2011.
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 11:46 AM
Obama has always known that higher taxes was the only solution. He has been lying from the beginning and will stop at nothing to achieve total socialism and change the entire face of this once great Republic.
rplat on October 13, 2009 at 11:46 AM
The VAT is going to come on top of the income tax. It’s naive to think that, even if the Republicans wanted to, the Democrats would ever go along with repealing or significantly lowering the income tax as some sort of a trade off.
BadgerHawk on October 13, 2009 at 11:47 AM
Aaahhh. Kind of like when politicians say they cut the budget, what they mean is they cut the rate that the budget is increasing…Got it. Thanks.
samuelrylander on October 13, 2009 at 11:50 AM
/nominates him for the Nobel in Economics
Midas on October 13, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 11:46 AM
Thanks!
booter on October 13, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Elmendorf: “We can not assess the net impact on premiums because there are provisions, (in this mark) that make the cost of premiums go down and others that make premiums go up.”
Also, one republican senator, (who’s name I missed), asked WHY the “clarifications” (remember this word), sent by the committee chairman’s staff to CBO, are not voted on in this mark. Example: one of the staff’s clarifications says that indexing is used in the penalty process assessed to those who choose not to (or delay) purchasing a health care policy. The fact was brought up that while Elmendorf used the staffs report that indexing would be used, the committee DOES NOT have this language in the markup. With no indexing, the cost of the mark goes up dramatically.
Confused yet?
Listening to Baucus and this committee on C-span as they prepare to vote on a package that will change when the House presents its version and when the conference committee adds back in all the radical provisions that Baucus’s finance committee “dumbed down” to provide moderates temporary coverage, IS A JOKE. AND THE JOKE IS ON YOU!
Rovin on October 13, 2009 at 11:57 AM
SouthernGent, the CBO said the bill would improve the deficit. That’s different than Aaron’s claim that the entire deficit is a result of a problem with health care.
Jimbo3 on October 13, 2009 at 11:58 AM
If the country institures a VAT I’m out. Not out as in leaving the country, but out as in going Galt. I’ll start growing my own damn food if I have to.
-Badgerhawk, you’ll find that it’s very difficult to avoid the VAT if it’s handled the way it is in Europe. Almost everything you purchase will be subject to VAT. You’ll need to buy some things to grow your own food, right?
Jimbo3 on October 13, 2009 at 12:01 PM
unclesmrgol on October 13, 2009 at 11:43 AM
Show me where Ghoul aid said anything of the sort. You’re projecting, that’s all. I also don’t believe you about your father. I think you’re setting that up as a straw man since there’s no way to disprove what you say concerning your father smoking at the age of 3.
Move along, troll.
Torch on October 13, 2009 at 12:02 PM
You need to read more carefully, particularly before calling strangers naive.
I wrote “Now, I understand the fear: The Dems want a VAT and an income tax so they can tax more and more” and “Then when the Republicans regain control (as they inevitably, but not immeditely, will), the income tax can be cut to offset the VAT.”
Thus, I quite understand that the Democrats intend both. But I also understand that the Democratic majorities are a temporary thing. When the Republicans regain cntrol, taxes will go down again, whether or not the Democrats wish to go along. It has happened before, and will happen again, and frankly it’s naive to argue otherwise.
I believe the focus should be on the long-term: What’s the best tax policy for the economy? (Yes, I know: Low taxes. But low income taxes or low VAT?) I believe VAT taxation makes more sense than income taxation. But rational arguments to the contrary are welcome.
SwampYankee on October 13, 2009 at 12:08 PM
I take it back, for every liberal solution there really isn’t a hundred new taxes, there’s a thousand.
Speakup on October 13, 2009 at 12:11 PM
What was it Baucus said? The quote they played on the radio was “we are just trying to make health care coverage fair”. Ha! What a joke, fair only for those who don’t have to get taxed out the wazoo so everyone else who is can pay for their coverage.
Susanboo on October 13, 2009 at 12:12 PM
It will change before that. The other Senate Bill Dodd pushed through is close to HR 3200 including the public option. Whatever comes out of this committee (by far the most responsible version despite its glaring faults) is subject to revision even before it gets to the Senate floor. My guess is that this will all be done in secret with a midnight vote. I’m also guessing that Snowe will vote with the Democrats- don’t think for one minute that such an action makes this a bipartisan bill.
highhopes on October 13, 2009 at 12:12 PM
hell, let’s go ALL IN – a wealth tax. If you have 50 mill sitting around from Daddy I say take $45M. We’ll see how long all the old money back East stays Democratic.
rock the casbah on October 13, 2009 at 12:20 PM
You’d have to have an efficient, transparent and reasonable way of reinvesting that money or it would all go to waste. Not to mention the fact that outright wealth confiscations are a bit too far…yet. (who knows what could happen next with our government’s craziness!)
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 12:22 PM
I’d say two things:
1) Many people did point out that this was absurd, but the press was predisposed to believe it, and the refutations were not widely reported. The best early one was the Concord Coalition , which not only refuted the analysis but correctly anticipated the bait-and-switch. Andrew Biggs and Jim Capretta have written a number of spot-on pieces anticipating these events as well.
2) Those who plied this line were cagey: they would go to various conferences in DC implying that “health care reform” meant getting federal costs under control, but to various lefty interest groups and imply that “health care reform” meant expanding coverage. It wasn’t until the Obama Administration’s budget came out in Feb this year that the Administration owned up at all to the fact that they actually planned to spend more money, not less.
Chuckles3 on October 13, 2009 at 12:31 PM
Govt’s appetite for other people’s money is limitless.
MarkTheGreat on October 13, 2009 at 12:34 PM
Atlas, meets Orwell and shares the soma.
http://www.springhillks.org/resale%20law.pdf
Archimedes on October 13, 2009 at 11:19 AM
“Everything inside the state. Nothing outide the state.”
I think it was Mussolini who said that, and Josh Godberg’s book “Liberal Fascism” was well-named.
Wethal on October 13, 2009 at 11:22 AM
Fascism is close to what the Obama agenda looks like, but Fascism is a nation state’s assertion of dominace over individuals. As we can see by this administration’s fondness with internationalism, splitting hairs here, Syndicalism is what they are now moving us towards. I covered this fairly extensively as part of this piece I wrote last August.
http://papundits.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/please-do-not-feed-the-800lb-gorilla%e2%80%a6/
http://papundits.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/please-do-not-feed-the-800lb-gorilla%e2%80%a6/
Archimedes on October 13, 2009 at 12:35 PM
I’m sure your wife would be upset if you changed positions as often as a liberal.
MarkTheGreat on October 13, 2009 at 12:36 PM
A double paste? That’s a new one. I think I’ve now managed to screw up posting here every way imaginable.
Archimedes on October 13, 2009 at 12:37 PM
Your desire to tax out of existence any behavior that you don’t approve of makes you a Nazi.
MarkTheGreat on October 13, 2009 at 12:44 PM
unclesmrgol on October 13, 2009 at 11:43 AM
The only difference between liberals and way too many conservatives, is just what part of your life they want govt to control.
For your own good of course.
MarkTheGreat on October 13, 2009 at 12:46 PM
unclesmrgol on October 13, 2009 at 11:43 AM
At least you didn’t claim that you were doing it “for the children”.
Oh wait, you did.
MarkTheGreat on October 13, 2009 at 12:47 PM
Do us a favor, will you?
Get in your car/van/etc., and go to places you’d normally visit. Drive as fast as you possibly care to go to save time. Be sure to not wear your seatbelt and deactivate the airbags if your vehicle provides such an option.
Assuming you survive the experience, attempt then to argue with the police about all the horrible controls that government has put on your life. I’ll bet you’ll be able to make a very convincing case. Bonus points if you win the argument after killing innocent person(s) and/or destroying property during your reckless rampage.
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Why am I not surprised to find that Dark-Star loves to be taken care of by govt.
He’s already shown that he lacks the mental capacity to take care of himself, so it’s hardly surprising.
Why don’t you demand that guns and knives be outlawed as well?
MarkTheGreat on October 13, 2009 at 1:09 PM
Yesterday we found out that D-S thinks that the govt should have the power to set everyone’s wage. Now we find out that he wants the govt to protect people from themselves.
And to think, he actually considers himself to be a conservative. Amazing how people lie to themselves, isn’t it.
MarkTheGreat on October 13, 2009 at 1:10 PM
It is not like a real tax, because the consumer can choose not to spend, so I Barack Obama, have kept my pledge…. Keep yer powder dry boys, we’s gonna need it!
rgranger on October 13, 2009 at 1:14 PM
FTFY.
They are only as good or bad as the users. Armed citizen stories are legion, as are reports of robbers who terrorize the innocent with all manner of weaponry.
Seatbelts and airbags are designed from the ground up to save lives, period. (what, BTW, do they have to do with guns and knives in the first place)
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Hopefully there is still a conservative or two left in that fast-sinking liberal state, SG. It shouldn’t require the brains that God gives a dog to run the same campaign ad every single day until 11-4-2014.
Jaibones on October 13, 2009 at 1:24 PM
Not my father — my wife’s father from ToiSan village, China. Yah, and people who have nothing to do all day other than grow rice and herd ducks are quirky that way.
I don’t have to prove anything to you — that is a red herring. If I have a mother who smoked, or a father in law who smoked, and they could not quit, and they died because they could not quit, it means nothing to you but everything to me. I’m sure there are others here who had relatives who could not quit.
My statement is why I am motivated to want to tax the hell out of cigarettes, and I’m glad my side is winning on that front. Get it, guy? My side is winning.
As for me moving along, you have no power over me at all. I will not move along, Mr. Torch, not at all.
unclesmrgol on October 13, 2009 at 1:25 PM
Yup. For the children. Why, do you think kids should smoke?
unclesmrgol on October 13, 2009 at 1:26 PM
Only if the tax is 100%, and includes your life. You have a very strange NAZI-meter, methinks, because that tax is what the cigarette makers exact.
unclesmrgol on October 13, 2009 at 1:28 PM
He probably thinks it’s an evil socialist idea to keep those poor tobacco companies from exploiting young people and getting them hooked at a young age. We should remove awful government restrictions like that and let the ‘free market’ reign free – people who sell poisonous, addictive products have a right to make a profit too. People should be able to put whatever they want into their bodies!
Am I right, Oh King Mark The Great?
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 1:30 PM
Glenn Beck made a point on his show yesterday.
The REAL REASON we have health care reform being shoved down our throats is to payoff the unions. Apparently the unions that provide health care have an issue looming where they have severely underfunded their retiree health care benefits looming in the near future.
Whoopsie, so we have to incur a TRILLION DOLLAR government program because the unions mis-managed their finances?
GRRRRRRR
karenhasfreedom on October 13, 2009 at 11:29 AM
Pardon me if I differ with you only so slightly, while indeed assuaging the unions by repairing their own deficits (most unions have not the funds to cover even a fraction of what they’ve promised), the premise for health reform lies lies elsewhere.
The reason this issue is at the top of the docket and the lynch-pin of their agenda going forward can be found in Lnin’s own words. I paraphrase, state provision of health services “is the keystone of socialism” The “keystone” refers to the central stone in a masonary arch, without it the rest of the structure collapses.
Obama has studied his Bolshievism well, and is following the syllabus precisely.
Archimedes on October 13, 2009 at 1:31 PM
Do us a favor, will you?
Get in your car/van/etc., and go to places you’d normally visit. Drive as fast as you possibly care to go to save time. Be sure to not wear your seatbelt and deactivate the airbags if your vehicle provides such an option.
Assuming you survive the experience, attempt then to argue with the police about all the horrible controls that government has put on your life. I’ll bet you’ll be able to make a very convincing case. Bonus points if you win the argument after killing innocent person(s) and/or destroying property during your reckless rampage.
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Would gladly comply sir, but alas I’ve no longer a job, so no place to go, rendering your request rather mot.
Archimedes on October 13, 2009 at 1:34 PM
Um…I was talking to Markthe’Great’…
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 1:37 PM
Dark-Star on October 13, 2009 at 1:18 PM
If you want govt to pass laws to save lives, why not pass laws limiting food choices, and requiring everyone to work out three times a week?
MarkTheGreat on October 13, 2009 at 1:41 PM
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