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Baucus Birth Tax starts three years before inception

posted at 1:36 pm on October 8, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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My column today at AIP looks more closely at the medical-device taxes that Senator Max Baucus imposes in order to fund his conceptual plan for overhauling the American health-care system.  I call this the Baucus Birth Tax, although it’s probably more accurate to call it the Life Tax, since these begin almost at conception and don’t expire until we do.  The problem with this tax is that it suffers from the same problem that ails the entire health-care system, which makes it difficult to fight:

Instead of making health care more affordable, the Baucus plan raises the price on just about every part of treatment that goes farther than a routine checkup.  The price jump should enrage every consumer in the American medical system – but it won’t.  Ironically, the very reason we have a cost problem in our system will also allow Baucus and his allies off the hook for making treatment more expensive.

The true problem in the American health-care system is a lack of pricing transparency to the consumer.  We don’t pay the bills for our medical care; we pay premiums, but we don’t pay the doctor or hospital directly except for artificially determined co-pays.  When the costs of providing the care go up, our insurers feel the pinch, and eventually that translates into higher premiums – but the connection between receiving goods and services and the pricing pressure doesn’t exist.

When we pay more for contact lenses and breast pumps at the cash register, we will see the impact of the Baucus plan, but for the most part, providers pay these taxes directly and pass them on to the people who pay for our medical care.  We won’t see the connection between these taxes and rising costs any more than we do with overuse today.

Yesterday, the CBO scored the Baucus “concept” and gave a preliminary analysis that it would reduce the deficit by $81 billion over 10 years.  However, the CBO insisted that this was only a conceptual analysis, as none of the Baucus plan has been translated into legislative language as of yet.  Until the legislative language exists, the CBO cannot properly score its impact.

The CBO relied on a couple of flawed assumptions in making that conceptual analysis.  It took at face value Baucus’ notion that an excise tax on insurers offering “Cadillac plans” would raise over $201 billion in revenue, although it did shorten that by over $50 billion in the ten year period.  As I have written before, that tax will push insurers to drop those plans to avoid the excise tax — and even if they didn’t, the insurers would have to hike premiums so high to cover that cost that no one would buy the plans.  The House has insisted that they will not vote for this tax in any case, which leaves Baucus two different ways to not get that revenue.

However, Baucus has also included a little sleight-of-hand in this scenario.  While the program itself would not start until 2013, the taxes start in 2010.  That means the CBO compared seven years of expenses to ten years of revenue, which hardly makes for an apples-to-apples comparison, and will likely mean that the real analysis — which will contain a projection for the second decade as well as the first — will look much less positive for Baucus.

According to the Joint Committee on Taxation, the government will receive the following revenues in the three years preceding the implementation of his plan:

  • 2010 – $8 billion
  • 2011 – $10.3 billion
  • 2012 – $10.9 billion

That comprises almost $30 billion of the so-called savings from the CBO conceptual analysis.  (Big thanks to Keith Hennessey for the link to the Senate document.)  If that revenue fails to meet expectations, it will impact the entire ten-year scope of the project, not just the $30 billion head start it gets in the first three years.  Plus, it’s worth noting that these taxes will get paid not by the insurers, but by consumers in higher premium prices as the costs spiral out of sight.  This does not reduce the costs in the system, but increases them and shifts them around to keep them opaque to the taxpayer — which is the actual problem we face with health-care costs.

And the CBO warns that budget deficits will start increasing in 2015 in its letter, or a substantial reduction in the subsidies offered in the exchanges (emphases mine):

An amendment adopted by the committee would require that, beginning in 2012, the Director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) certify annually whether or not the provisions of the legislation are projected to increase the budget deficit in the coming year. If the Director determined that they were projected to increase the deficit, he or she would be required to notify the Congress, and exchange subsidies would be automatically adjusted to avoid the estimated increase in the deficit for that year.

The estimates presented in this preliminary analysis do not incorporate the potential effects of using this proposed failsafe mechanism, although CBO and JCT estimate that the amended mark would increase the deficit in fiscal years 2015 through 2018. Many of the budgetary effects of this proposal would appear as part of larger aggregates in the budget and would not be readily observable. Consequently, its overall budgetary impact could not be identified, and OMB’s estimating assumptions and procedures would determine whether and how this failsafe procedure was implemented. It is therefore difficult to predict whether the proposed failsafe mechanism would result in a budget-neutral impact in each year. If the mechanism was implemented to reduce exchange subsidy rates in some years, it would probably result in significant reductions to the dollar volume of such subsidies and associated reductions in coverage. Under CBO and JCT’s estimates of the deficit impact for the proposal, the failsafe provisions would require a reduction in exchange subsidies averaging about 15 percent during the years 2015 through 2018.

Government giveth, and government taketh away.

Update: Cato says the numbers don’t add up:

Sen. Max Baucus’s (D-MT) health care overhaul would cost more than $2 trillion.  It would expand the deficit.  But he has carefully and methodically hidden those facts – so well that he has completely hoodwinked nearly all the major media.

The media are reporting that the Baucus bill would reduce the deficit by $81 billion over 10 years.  Wrong.

The Baucus bill assumes that Congress will allow the “sustainable growth rate” cuts in Medicare’s physician payments to occur beginning in 2012.  Yet Congress has routinely and repeatedly blocked those cuts, making Baucus’s assumption preposterous.  The CBO handled the issue delicately, but essentially said, “Sure, provided that the sun rises in the west in 2012, then yes, this bill would reduce the deficit.”

That means Baucus will come up at least $200 billion short on the revenue side, making his bill a budget-buster.

Michael Cannon says the bill will cost $2 trillion, not $829 billion.  Be sure to read it all.


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THERE IS NO BAUCUS BILL.

Seven Percent Solution on October 8, 2009 at 1:39 PM

Right. Save us money by charging us more. LOL

Blake on October 8, 2009 at 1:40 PM

Why is it that something that does not exist costs so much?

LincolntheHun on October 8, 2009 at 1:42 PM

The CBO relied on a couple of flawed assumptions in making that conceptual analysis. It took at face value Baucus’ notion that an excise tax on insurers offering “Cadillac plans” would raise over $201 billion in revenue, although it did shorten that by over $50 billion in the ten year period.

I thought the CBO was going to use dynamic tax analysis. Did that not happen with the Baucus ‘bill’.

BadgerHawk on October 8, 2009 at 1:42 PM

LincolntheHun on October 8, 2009 at 1:42 PM

That’s government for ya.

lorien1973 on October 8, 2009 at 1:42 PM

This whole thing does not even begin to add the money for all the pork and add on’s that will be put into the bill before it is done. This whole thing is a major LIE!
L

letget on October 8, 2009 at 1:42 PM

Michael Cannon says the bill will cost $2 trillion, not $829 billion. Be sure to read it all.

Double it. It will cost $4 trillion when all is said and done. It will lead us to ruin.

rockmom on October 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM

The Theory and Practice Conundrum is at work.

In Theory there is not difference between Theory and Practice.

In Practice, there is.

Baucus is hot air until it is made into a bill… it is all just theory. CBO judged a theory, not a bill.

Now let us see the practice, shall we? A real bill to be scored, not just a theory about a bill, please.

ajacksonian on October 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM

“Sure, provided that the sun rises in the west in 2012, then yes, this bill would reduce the deficit.”

So the Mayans predicted the earth will reverse its rotation in 2012? I hope Earth has a slow gradual braking mechanism.

WashJeff on October 8, 2009 at 1:45 PM

Double it. It will cost $4 trillion when all is said and done. It will lead us to ruin.

rockmom on October 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM

Your posts always cheer me up. Mainly because you have the intellect and background to know what you’re talking about.

BadgerHawk on October 8, 2009 at 1:45 PM

Solution, every member voting for the legislation will also submit a resignation letter effective if their budget is off by one penny or more. The bill dies.

rjoco1 on October 8, 2009 at 1:46 PM

There is absolutely no need to get caught up in the details of a lyin’ bill.
One fact alone is enough to chew on: Illegals will be left out. So who’s gonna pay for their emergency room visits and surgeries, and care? How many 100 billions more on top of the lying estimate on the table?
Yeah. Sure. They’ll be left to die in the gutters, or they’ll just go home. Like that’ll happen.
Don’t get caught in the undertow folks. This Bill’s costs cannot be rationalized by sane people. Just say NO.
If they pass it, just throw them out next year.

Randy

williars on October 8, 2009 at 1:47 PM

So according to Fox news this morning. Our debt load to China is…

$880 billion.

Current cost of the health bill for 10 years?
$892 billion.

And I’m thinking to myself… why don’t we just raise the same amount of taxes and pay off the debt to China…

Skywise on October 8, 2009 at 1:47 PM

Solution, every member voting for the legislation will also submit a resignation letter effective if their budget is off by one penny or more. The bill dies.
rjoco1 on October 8, 2009 at 1:46 PM

I will spot them $10B, the result will be the same.

WashJeff on October 8, 2009 at 1:48 PM

I hope Earth has a slow gradual braking mechanism.

WashJeff on October 8, 2009 at 1:45 PM

You know what’s really going to suck? Even if ObamaCare passes, those 47 million Americans won’t be insured until 2013. So that reversal in 2012 is going to be a real b!tch.

BadgerHawk on October 8, 2009 at 1:48 PM

And I’m thinking to myself… why don’t we just raise the same amount of taxes and pay off the debt to China…

Skywise on October 8, 2009 at 1:47 PM

Obama gives them Taiwan for debt forgiveness.

WashJeff on October 8, 2009 at 1:49 PM

Plus, dont forget that the CBO also said that 45 million would still not have health care. Hows that help anyone?

becki51758 on October 8, 2009 at 1:50 PM

So that reversal in 2012 is going to be a real b!tch.

BadgerHawk on October 8, 2009 at 1:48 PM

A hard brake and momentum may carry me all the way to DC from IL. Those 47 million, though, will sue for whiplash. Problem solved.

WashJeff on October 8, 2009 at 1:51 PM

Something I learned when I was four years old …..

You don’t get something for nothing.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is.

fogw on October 8, 2009 at 1:51 PM

so well that he has completely hoodwinked nearly all the major media.

This is not hard.
There are very few critical thinkiners in today’s society.
The sheeple are stupid.

And if not only did we immediately pay the Dr ourselves, than if we got rid of the Medicare/caid fingers in the system-I wonder what that alone would do to med costs?

Badger40 on October 8, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Kill the bill concept.

itsacookbook on October 8, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Does anyone know what Baucus does in this thread’s picture when Harry Reid puts his arm around Max?

WashJeff on October 8, 2009 at 1:52 PM

You racists don’t like a 70% tax rate?

And that would come on top of the high implicit taxes already built into current law. Low-wage families with children also get the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC). The EITC boosts incomes for those with the very lowest wages, but it is also phased-out as incomes rise. Past a certain threshold (about $21,400 in 2016), the EITC is reduced by $0.21 for every additional $1 earned. Throw in the individual income tax rate (15 percent) and payroll taxes (7.65 percent), and the effective, implicit tax rate for workers between 100 and 200 percent of the federal poverty line would quickly approach 70 percent — not even counting food stamps and housing vouchers.

lorien1973 on October 8, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Someone seriously needs to say that the Bacus bill isn’t a bill-bill.

csdeven on October 8, 2009 at 1:53 PM

A potential bill will still need to go through the amendment process where all members of Congress can add their pet projects and hidden agendas; not only will the cost skyrocket but all sorts of little things will become law.

Bishop on October 8, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Illegals will be left out. So who’s gonna pay for their emergency room visits and surgeries, and care? Randy

williars on October 8, 2009 at 1:47 PM

Easy-send them back to their native countries for medical care.
Heartless it may sound, but maybe that would light a fire in the butts of those in other countries thinking about illegal immigration to actually stay home & change their governments instead of cutting & running?

Badger40 on October 8, 2009 at 1:55 PM

You don’t get something for nothing.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is.

fogw on October 8, 2009 at 1:51 PM

Times change:

You can take something from somebody else if you have a majority.

If it sounds too good to be true, you doing the wrong drugs.

WashJeff on October 8, 2009 at 1:56 PM

Medicare cuts that happen immedietely and benefits for seniors that don’t kick in for 2 1/2 years after this phony Bill passes.

This has DEATH PANEL stamped all over it.

portlandon on October 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM

We’ll tax health care more, but we’ll save money because we’ll spend the tax revenue on health care. It’s a perpetual motion machine.

zmdavid on October 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM

I say we put all the versions of the bill in one big pile and shoot it at the moon.

LibTired on October 8, 2009 at 1:58 PM

You don’t get something for nothing.

fogw on October 8, 2009 at 1:51 PM

But very often, you get nothing for something.

LibTired on October 8, 2009 at 2:00 PM

The Democrats will do anything to pass anything they can call health care reform, regardless of it’s impact on health, the economy or the deficit. Truth is no obstacle.

Loxodonta on October 8, 2009 at 2:00 PM

$80 BILLION OVER 10 YEARS?

That’s not even chicken feed!!!

Let’s see it costs $4 billion a year to care for every Senior Citizen on Medicare…..heck that’s only 20 Grannies that they’ll have to unplug over 20 years. That’s definitely doable.

If we have to unplug anyone could we start with all the RINO’s in Congress (and Bob Dole and Howard Baker who are just brought out of the home to shill for “bipartisanship”)?

Save the Republic!!!
THROW ALL OF THEM OUT OF OFFICE ASAP!!!

PappyD61 on October 8, 2009 at 2:00 PM

All this “funny” math and accounting scares me.

Blake on October 8, 2009 at 2:04 PM

Something I learned when I was four years old …..

You don’t get something for nothing.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is.

fogw on October 8, 2009 at 1:51 PM

What’s sad here is that we’re not getting something for nothing. We’re gonna get less of what we already have and pay a helluva lot more for it.

I can’t believe the Dems would ram a bill like this through. If none of it took effect til 2013, that would be understandable. Especially for Obama, since he has to face the music in 2012. But if the taxes to pay for this kick in next year, don’t these polticians think the voters will notice when their premiums skyrocket?

Doughboy on October 8, 2009 at 2:05 PM

This is all a sham. There is no Baucus bill and soon there will be no Baucus in the Senate. I hope the people of Montana make it happen.

d1carter on October 8, 2009 at 2:06 PM

Prove to me that something has already been done to eliminate medicare waste and fraud. We don’t need a bill for that. I need proof.

rjoco1 on October 8, 2009 at 2:06 PM

The true problem in the American health-care system is a lack of pricing transparency to the consumer.

True story:

I retired back in April at the age of 55. COBRA costs were prohibitive, and we don’t qualify for Medicare at our age. So I’m searching for insurance and paying my own way for now.

I was in for a physical last Wednesday since the clinic called 3 weeks earlier and said I was due. I thought it was a bit early and when I talked to the doctor, it turned out it was about 6 months too early! He was nice about it and had them refund my $75 fee.

But here: I was supposed to be taking medicine to lower my cholesterol. I decided to try it on my own my controlling my diet. I was interested in what my cholesterol was and asked the doctor to if I could just have that test done, depending on the price. He said to ask at the scheduling desk and if I could afford it, he would schedule it.

NO ONE AT THE CLINIC NEW WHAT THE COST WAS!!!!

Even the business office people had NO CLUE what the cost of the test was. They finally said they charge $11 to draw the blood and gave me the number for the lab that does the analysis so I could call and get the price.

It’s not just lack of transparency to the consumer. The darn providers are unaware of the costs in some cases.

Why? Because we have a system where it’s assumed that insurance or some government entity pays all the bills. No one even CARES what the price is anymore.

Transparency in costs is only part of the answer. I’m beginning to think insurance companies present a danger to us all: they remove us from the cost/payment equation, essentially eliminating any market controls.

karl9000 on October 8, 2009 at 2:06 PM

But if the taxes to pay for this kick in next year, don’t these polticians think the voters will notice when their premiums skyrocket?

Doughboy on October 8, 2009 at 2:05 PM

They’ll campaign against all those evil insurance companies.

zmdavid on October 8, 2009 at 2:07 PM

They’ll campaign against all those evil insurance companies.

zmdavid on October 8, 2009 at 2:07 PM

They’ll campaign against insurance companies AFTER they’ve passed comprehensive health care reform? That’s like running against Bush after he’s left office. Oh wait, they’re still doing that.

Doughboy on October 8, 2009 at 2:09 PM

All this “funny” math and accounting scares me.

Blake on October 8, 2009 at 2:04 PM

Same here.

Kill the Bill!

misslizzi on October 8, 2009 at 2:11 PM

Kind of like losing money on every sale but making it up in volume.

Hening on October 8, 2009 at 2:12 PM

Why not let them run health care? Their track record is just great!!

> And, the record speaks for itself. What further proof do we need. Incompetents need to be replaced.
>
> This same info has been presented in differing formats, but this is pretty clear as to the state of a government-run organization. Know this, anytime you give your money to someone else with no restrictions, it’s going to be misspent.
>
>
>
> Dear All 535 voting members of the Legislature.
>
>
> It is now official:
>
> The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775 – you have had 234 years to get it right;
> it is broke.
>
> Social Security was established in 1935 – you have had 74 years to get it right;
> it is broke.
>
> Fannie Mae was established in 1938 – you have had 71 years to get it right;
> it is broke..
>
> Department of Education started in 1980 under President Carter. You have had 29 years to improve education. Study after study showes our education system has gone down hill under federal government control: It is a failure.
>
> War on Poverty started in 1964 – you have had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to “the poor”; it hasn’t worked. They are as poor now as they were then.
>
> Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965 – you’ve had 44 years to get it right; they’re broke.
>
> Freddie Mac was established in 1970 – you have had 39 years to get it right; it is broke.
>
>
> Trillions of dollars in the massive political payoff called the TARP bill of 2009 shows NO sign of working.
>
> And finally to set a new record:
>
> “Cash for Clunkers” was established in 2009 and went broke in 2009! It took good dependable cars (that were the best some people could afford) replaced them with high priced (people who couldn’t afford to are now making payments) mostly Japanese models so a good percentage of the profits, from the sales, went out of the country. And lastly, the American taxpayers are now going to be dinged with paying for yet 3 billion more dollars of our governments experiments to make our wallets even thinner.
>
> So with a perfect 100% failure rate and a record that proves that “services” you shove down our throats are failing faster and faster, you want Americans to believe you can be trusted with a government-run health care system? 15% of our economy? Are you for real?
>
> Truly, the inmates are running the asylum! And what does this say about voters who put such in office? Maybe we need to let others in on this brilliant record before 2010 and just vote against incumbents.

stacy on October 8, 2009 at 2:14 PM

It looks like the state exchanges will be available in 2010, meaning that at least part of the program will be in place next year:

Establishment of State Exchanges. States would be required to establish an exchange for the individual market and a Small Business Health Options Program (SHOP) exchange for the small group market, with technical assistance from the Secretary, in 2010. This requirement may encompass a single exchange with separate resources for individual and small-group customers. The Secretary would be required to establish and maintain a database of plan offerings for use by state exchanges. The database would enable the review of state-specific information. The Secretary could contract out to a private entity for the operation of the plan database.

In 2010, 2011 and 2012, so-called ―mini-medical‖ plans with limited benefits and low annual caps would be prohibited from being offered in the state exchanges. All other policies would be offered in the state exchange. Beginning January 1, 2013, all plans offered in the individual and small group market, whether through the exchange or outside of the exchange, would have to comply with the rating reforms and benefit options detailed in the Chairman‘s Mark.

Legal U.S. residents will be able to obtain insurance through the state exchanges. Parents who are in the country illegally will not be able to buy personal insurance coverage through the state exchange but will be able to buy insurance for their U.S. citizen or lawfully present children

Effective Date
The effective date for this subtitle is July 1, 2010 unless otherwise indicated.

Jimbo3 on October 8, 2009 at 2:14 PM

Main complaint about health care is it cost too much.

Democrat, big government solution? Raise prices.

You. Cannot. Make. This Shit. Up.

jukin on October 8, 2009 at 2:16 PM

Lets do some math…

Baucus’s taxes + Cap&Tax + Pelosi’s VAT + All Local/state taxes = ?

Frankly I think we’re looking at a tax rates approaching 90% of people’s income in the next 4-5 years if all this manure passes.

evilned on October 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM

Frankly I think we’re looking at a tax rates approaching 90% of people’s income in the next 4-5 years if all this manure passes.

All to paid for by cutting the Fraud, Waste, And Abuse ™in Medicare.

What’s the priblem?

karl9000 on October 8, 2009 at 2:25 PM

What’s the priblem?

Or problem….

karl9000 on October 8, 2009 at 2:25 PM

When our tax rate rises to 110% then what do we do. BAILOUT

rjoco1 on October 8, 2009 at 2:26 PM

Would the CBO be using the same unrealistic growth-of-revenue numbers they used to pull Social Security out of the red?

steveegg on October 8, 2009 at 2:26 PM

Jimbo3 on October 8, 2009 at 2:14 PM

Good catch. The program still replies on static tax analysis and funding before services go into effect to barely break even, though.

BadgerHawk on October 8, 2009 at 2:26 PM

THERE IS NO BAUCUS BILL.
Seven Percent Solution on October 8, 2009 at 1:39 PM

It is a “Bill-Bill“.

There is no point scoring a concept without final details. Meaningless. Also mandates are unconstitutional. Government CAN NOT not force you to buy anything. No matter what crappy logic is applied.

antisocial on October 8, 2009 at 2:28 PM

A while back I stipulated the following…..
This demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what the “reconciliation” process really means. “Reconciliation” was adopted as a an optional practice to be employed under the “Pay-Go” rules to limit deficit spending. To reconcile in this sense is to reconcile spending with revenues.

Explicit in langauge adopted to invoke “reconciliation” protocols is that the bill in question must reduce the deficit, or at a minimum be “revenue neutral.”

This why I think we saw so much pressure by Orszag and the House leadership on CBO cheif Elmendorf, when Elmendorf put out candid CBO numbers on Obamacare he essentially was depriving the Dem’s from being able to invoke the weapon of”reconciliation.”

Dean is Either bluffing, or the DNC is holding Elmendorf’s children in “an undisclosed secure location” in ransom against serious budget fudging.Archimedes on August 17, 2009 at 7:54 PM

Has anyone seen Elmendorf’s kids recently?
Archimedes on October 8, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Archimedes on October 8, 2009 at 2:29 PM

Government CAN NOT not force you to buy anything. No matter what crappy logic is applied.

antisocial on October 8, 2009 at 2:28 PM

Just watch them. SCOTUS would have to stop them, get a couple more wise Latinas on there and lots of stuff becomes legal.

zmdavid on October 8, 2009 at 2:31 PM

When does the “savings” from the waste, fraud, and abuse of Medicare kick in?

d1carter on October 8, 2009 at 2:31 PM

The Baucus Bill is a LIE!

The real bill will be decided behind closed doors with Obama and the Dem leadership. Transparent my a$$. What are they hiding?

2010 Turn OUT the House & Senate.

TN Mom on October 8, 2009 at 2:36 PM

When does the “savings” from the waste, fraud, and abuse of Medicare kick in?

d1carter on October 8, 2009 at 2:31 PM

At about the same time as every American citizen have health insurance they can actually afford. Which is to say, on a cold day in h***.

alwaysfiredup on October 8, 2009 at 2:37 PM

alwaysfiredup on October 8, 2009 at 2:37 PM

*has health insurance that he/she can actually afford…

alwaysfiredup on October 8, 2009 at 2:37 PM

I say we put all the versions of the bill in one big pile and shoot it at the moon.

LibTired on October 8, 2009 at 1:58 PM

Wow… did the Moon do something particularly nasty to you earlier in your life? Why the Moon-hate?

VekTor on October 8, 2009 at 2:39 PM

I tell you what, let every Democrat who says this thing will work, promise to resign his office and leave Washington if it does not…and let’s just see what they say.

Terrye on October 8, 2009 at 2:44 PM

There is a school of thought that no matter what the bills say about illegal aliens, the courts will force the government to offer the same benefits to illegals as citizens. Has anyone seen any opinions on this?

d1carter on October 8, 2009 at 2:47 PM

Rove’s column on this spelled it out.

Do you really think people will take taxes BEFORE any benefits?

Come on GOP. Come on.

AnninCA on October 8, 2009 at 2:48 PM

SHELL GAME!!!!!!!!

3 card monte

its all they got.

joepub on October 8, 2009 at 2:49 PM

Do you really think people will take taxes BEFORE any benefits?

Come on GOP. Come on.

AnninCA on October 8, 2009 at 2:48 PM

The GOP cannot sop this bill. That will require Democrats. All the GOP can do is educate the American public about its shifty language and hidden impacts, and give Democrats fear they will be swept from Congress in 2010.

Loxodonta on October 8, 2009 at 2:54 PM

sop = stop

Loxodonta on October 8, 2009 at 2:54 PM

> Truly, the inmates are running the asylum! And what does this say about voters who put such in office? Maybe we need to let others in on this brilliant record before 2010 and just vote against incumbents.

stacy on October 8, 2009 at 2:14 PM

When you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can always depend on Paul’s vote.

Johan Klaus on October 8, 2009 at 2:56 PM

Oh Dear God this nightmare never ends. Is there any hope this monstrosity won’t pass?

I’m 61. My country is dying in front of my eyes. I’ve lost any hope of things getting better. These people are trying to destroy us and they are doing pretty well.

hachiban on October 8, 2009 at 2:58 PM

I think, personally, there is a meeting point, and that is often called “point of service,” or some other term.

I don’t believe we’re that truly far apart.

There is a true midde ground that can be found. No, for those of you who are anti-government. No, for those who propose universal health care as though it’s free.

But for the rest of us, I do see a window.

AnninCA on October 8, 2009 at 3:00 PM

Now is the absolute time for the GOP to propose their own reform.

Now.

And it can’t be wussy.

Now, push forward with a real reform bill that appeals to people.

AnninCA on October 8, 2009 at 3:02 PM

The GOP cannot sop this bill. That will require Democrats. All the GOP can do is educate the American public about its shifty language and hidden impacts, and give Democrats fear they will be swept from Congress in 2010.

Loxodonta on October 8, 2009 at 2:54 PM

This is as close as you’ll ever come. Blue Dogs are real. They are gun-shy on this legislation.

This is it.

Seriously, the GOP need to push an alternative perspective.

The polls show that people are skeptical. We want reform. We aren’t behind the Dems.

That’s the opening.

Sarah, btw, needs to push a real reform bill RIGHT NOW.

One that will probably not please the “constitutionalists.”

But one that will provide a solution, a real solution.

AnninCA on October 8, 2009 at 3:05 PM

Also mandates are unconstitutional. Government CAN NOT not force you to buy anything. No matter what crappy logic is applied.

antisocial on October 8, 2009 at 2:28 PM

Try the following. 1.Driving without insurance.
2. Hiring who you want.
3. Serving who you want.
4. Not paying income tax.
5. Not paying property tax.
6. Using you own property as you choose, when there is an endangered species.(real or imagined.) Ect., ect., ect……….

Johan Klaus on October 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM

This is as close as you’ll ever come. Blue Dogs are real. They are gun-shy on this legislation.

This is it.

Seriously, the GOP need to push an alternative perspective.

AnninCA on October 8, 2009 at 3:05 PM

I know there are moderate and conservative Democrats. That’s why this bill is in trouble.

There are at least three different Republican health care reform bills in Congress. How much has the public heard about them from the MSM?

Loxodonta on October 8, 2009 at 3:12 PM

I say we put all the versions of the bill in one big pile and shoot it at the moon.

LibTired on October 8, 2009 at 1:58 PM

I say we put all the bill writers in one big pile and shoot them to the moon; it ought to fullfill all their cap and tax fantasies, too. There’s no CO2 on the moon.

jimmy2shoes on October 8, 2009 at 3:15 PM

One that will probably not please the “constitutionalists.”

But one that will provide a solution, a real solution.

AnninCA on October 8, 2009 at 3:05 PM

If it is unconstitutional is , how can I say this, unconstitutional.

Johan Klaus on October 8, 2009 at 3:17 PM

Sarah, btw, needs to push a real reform bill RIGHT NOW.

One that will probably not please the “constitutionalists.”

But one that will provide a solution, a real solution.

AnninCA on October 8, 2009 at 3:05 PM

Why do we automatically assume that health care reform is a government issue? It isn’t.

jimmy2shoes on October 8, 2009 at 3:17 PM

thank you for this excellent post!! am spreading the word far and wide on the device taxes etc etc
when I was nursing my son, the pump and various supplies were enormously expensive.
Zimmer Holdings (they make artificial knees and such) better hope Amy Klobuchar DMN gets her way and lowers these taxes on device makers
basically everyone but PharMa got screwed thank to Billy Tauzin, but I still think they were fools to trust TOTUS and the House will roll back that ‘deal’
TOTUS CAMPAIGNED on importing RXs from Canada for cripes sake!
IMO we need to pester everyone we know to make SURE they are registered to vote and take them to the polls if need be for 2010 to roll back the worst that gets through…

ginaswo on October 8, 2009 at 3:24 PM

AnninCA
we have had this discussion before, there ARE ALREADY GOP alternatives. they are locked out of the room.

See Mike Pence, Eric Cantor, hell go read HR 3400

The arm twisting Pelosi is doing is unprecedented IMO
the Blue Dogs will; likely all lose their seats in 2010

I predict EPIC EPIC turnover in da house.

ginaswo on October 8, 2009 at 3:26 PM

Ed, this is the best thing you’ve ever written.

Labamigo on October 8, 2009 at 3:29 PM

Why do we automatically assume that health care reform is a government issue? It isn’t.

jimmy2shoes on October 8, 2009 at 3:17 PM

What do you propose for the millions of American citizens who do not have health care insurance?

Loxodonta on October 8, 2009 at 3:31 PM

Johan Klaus on October 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM

You can choose not to drive. That is a safety/compensation issue for others.
Income and property taxes are for government functioning.

The case with Insurance mandate is different. You have to buy it because government says you have to. Supposedly it’s for your own good. I think that is unconstitutional.

antisocial on October 8, 2009 at 3:33 PM

stacy on October 8, 2009 at 2:14 PM

Well said.

How do we tell these people that we don’t trust them to do anything and want our country back?

justincase on October 8, 2009 at 3:34 PM

Yesterday, the CBO scored the Baucus “concept” and gave a preliminary analysis that it would reduce the deficit by $81 billion over 10 years. However, the CBO insisted that this was only a conceptual analysis, as none of the Baucus plan has been translated into legislative language as of yet. Until the legislative language exists, the CBO cannot properly score its impact.

So…why did the CBO publish their fantasy numbers and why are you reporting on it, Ed? With all due respect…eff it.

Jaibones on October 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM

When insurance rates skyrocket, because of these added taxes, the Dems will again scream that the Insurance companies are bilking consumers and that will give them the ammunition to impose the public option in whole. Of course, the American sheeple will buy the arguments hook line and sinker!

LonelyMassRepublican on October 8, 2009 at 4:14 PM

There are really no good GOP alternatives. None of the GOP alternatives effectively deal with pre-existing conditions. Giving money to states and allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines doesn’t require any insurance company to offer insurance to people with pre-existing conditions. That’s basically all that the GOP bills do.

And there is no real world evidence that tort reform reduces health care costs to the consumer. It didn’t in Texas or in California.

The problem is that the GOP are trying to put perfume on their horse turd bills.

Jimbo3 on October 8, 2009 at 4:51 PM

There are really no good GOP alternatives. None of the GOP alternatives effectively deal with pre-existing conditions. Giving money to states and allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines doesn’t require any insurance company to offer insurance to people with pre-existing conditions. That’s basically all that the GOP bills do.

And there is no real world evidence that tort reform reduces health care costs to the consumer. It didn’t in Texas or in California.

The problem is that the GOP are trying to put perfume on their horse turd bills.

Jimbo3 on October 8, 2009 at 4:51 PM

Hey pal…better look at H.R. 3400, that bill covers pre-existing.
It allows selling across state lines, reduction in legal fees and costs (limits on what attorney get, not the patient), gives credit for medical students who will serve as public doctors for a certain amount of time…it creates competition between insurance companies, allows low income students the ability to become doctors, it assists pre-existing, you can take your coverage with you, or change it to a better coverage at a new job.
It essentially takes away all the “government” angles, and allows the free market, while limiting the greedy attorneys.
Apparently you have not read the bill…

right2bright on October 8, 2009 at 5:02 PM

And there is no real world evidence that tort reform reduces health care costs to the consumer. It didn’t in Texas or in California.

Jimbo3 on October 8, 2009 at 4:51 PM

It was never implemented in California…the attorney got the bill revised…either you did not know that, or you are a little “shady”…just sayin. There was no real tort reform anywhere in the U.S.

right2bright on October 8, 2009 at 5:03 PM

Seriously, the GOP need to push an alternative perspective.

AnninCA on October 8, 2009 at 3:05 PM

Do you know why people have no respect for you…why they laugh at you, and ridicule you.
Because of posts like this.
You have been told probably a dozen times of H.R. 3400, and yet you continue with your outright lie that Republicans do not have a bill.
There can’t be any other explanation…you are lying about saying there is no other alternative being pushed…it just isn’t being pushed by the liberals….duhhhhh!
It solves most all the problems…except it is a Republican bill and people like you would rather tell an lie, pretend you don’t know, then to report that this is a bill that addresses most every issue…and it is not government laden….sheeesh, you are such a troll…

right2bright on October 8, 2009 at 5:08 PM

Hey pal…better look at H.R. 3400, that bill covers pre-existing.
It allows selling across state lines, reduction in legal fees and costs (limits on what attorney get, not the patient), gives credit for medical students who will serve as public doctors for a certain amount of time…it creates competition between insurance companies, allows low income students the ability to become doctors, it assists pre-existing, you can take your coverage with you, or change it to a better coverage at a new job.
It essentially takes away all the “government” angles, and allows the free market, while limiting the greedy attorneys.
Apparently you have not read the bill…

–I did read the bill. Here’s what it says about pre-existing conditions: “Covers pre-existing conditions – Grants states incentives to establish high-risk / reinsurance pools. Federal block grants for qualified
pools are expanded
.” It doesn’t require anyone to grant policies that cover pre-existing conditions.

Jimbo3 on October 8, 2009 at 5:12 PM

You’re just wrong about California, right2bright.

In 1975, the California Legislature adopted the Medical Injury Compensation Reform Act, or MICRA. Under that, noneconomic damages — that’s “pain and suffering” — were capped at $250,000. Lawyers’ fees were also limited.

See http://www.sfms.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&SECTION=Article_Archives&CONTENTID=1793.

I think you’re the shady one.

Jimbo3 on October 8, 2009 at 5:16 PM

I always hear about this ‘National Market’ concept and the ‘right to buy across State lines’…. you know you could lobby your State to do that? You know, States working without the federal government to arrange for something? That is perfectly allowable under the Constitution. You want less federal government,then get your States to allow for cross-State insurance systems. There are reasons why States might not want this imposed on them: small and local insurance groups that address limited geographical areas are set up to respond to those areas and are not set up to go national. A National market concentrates power in large companies, while a cooperative State agreement arrangement allows the protection of smaller insurers who can respond to local conditions and requires large insurers to properly price to those smaller markets.

Federalism is the concept here: do it without the federal government if you truly want LESS federal government ‘help’. This allows for organizations that can handle wider markets to do so, while protecting localized organizations that are well adapted for their particular areas to not suffer the need to go national but allows those insurers who can serve wider markets to do so. By getting the federal government out you hold companies accountable at the State and local level which should be far more responsive than waiting for federal bureaucracy to take its sweet time to do anything. That does require us to stop thinking about this as a national problem and, instead, as a series of local problems to which no single solution will fit.

There is no magic bullet to cancer.

There is no magic solution to health care because it is as diverse as the people of the US. Tort reform would be a big help, but the States can do that on their own as Texas has demonstrated by doing that and lowering costs. Why anyone wants to push more power into DC is beyond me: the federal government has demonstrated its incompetence amply in many venues and has demonstrated itself to be the least accountable form of government around. And if its such a big problem, our States should deal with it FIRST and ‘mandates’ from on high should be the LAST thing anyone wants.

A ‘window’ for ‘compromise’ sounds more like defenestration when you are 20 stories up. And we are the ones getting tossed out the window… the landing is something we will not survive.

ajacksonian on October 8, 2009 at 5:34 PM

It’s pretty PLAIN and SIMPLE; Congress SIMPLY does NOT have the Authority to create Healthcare Legislation, PERIOD!

nelsonknows on October 8, 2009 at 6:40 PM

Jimbo3 on October 8, 2009 at 5:16 PM

California has the Authority to create Tort Reform, CONGRESS does NOT, nor is FEDERAL tort reform constitutional under the 7th Amendment. Trying to tell a civil jury how they can and cannot rule is dangerous business for the Federal Government to be involved in.

nelsonknows on October 8, 2009 at 6:44 PM

I think you’re the shady one.

Jimbo3 on October 8, 2009 at 5:16 PM

despite steady increases in malpractice claim frequency and severity

From the CMA…
Don’t believe everything the CMA says:

Recent studies on California alone showed that about 20,562 malpractice suits were filed against physicians. This is about 11% of the total number of medical malpractice suits filed in the whole country.

The cap was there; yet the number of cases exploded, along with the number of cases that “maxed” out. The dollar amount also per case increased.
One state has 11% of the nations suits…25 years ago it had about 7%.
They didn’t address the worst abuser, class action law suits…

right2bright on October 8, 2009 at 7:06 PM

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