Oh my: One quarter of Americans could be non-religious in 20 years
posted at 9:04 pm on September 22, 2009 by Allahpundit
In 1990, we were eight percent of the population; today we’re 15 percent and climbing. The good news? We’re taking over. The bad news? It’s, er, not quite clear who “we” are.
American religious nones tend to be religious skeptics as opposed to outright atheists. Fewer than ten percent of those identifying with no religious tradition call themselves atheists or hold atheistic beliefs, according to the new study.
“American nones are kind of agnostic and deistic, so it’s a very American kind of skepticism,” says Barry Kosmin, director of Trinity’s Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture. “It’s a kind of religious indifference that’s not hostile to religion the way they are in France. Franklin and Jefferson would have recognized these people.”
Only seven percent of the non-religious are atheist — versus 27 percent who believe in a “personal god”? Dude, weak:
What kind of “non-religious” person believes in a personal god, anyway? This kind, I guess.
There are, of course, political implications here:
Secular voters once constituted an important part of the GOP coalition, but fewer than 10 percent of religious nones under age 30 are Republican. “Republican nones are getting older and continue to show an affinity to the GOP,” says Juhen Navarro-Rivera, a Trinity College research fellow who helped compile the new report. “But they’re not making new Republican nones.”
Navarro-Rivera is still running the numbers, but his hunch is that the new generation of religious nones has been scared away from the Republican Party because of its ties to the Christian right. Does the GOP continue to embrace that movement or move more to the middle? Call it the Sarah Palin option versus the John McCain option. (Though opposition to healthcare reform, it should be noted, is helping bring the two camps together.)
Here’s a graphic breakdown of the partisan split. Note how much wider the gap is among “nones” since 1990: From a 27/21 Democratic advantage to 34/13 now.
No surprise either to find that “nones” are already at or above 20 percent on the west coast and in the northeast, where the GOP’s collapsed over the past 10 years:
As fascinating and portentous as all this is, the only issue I can think of where religious affiliation might strongly drive the partisan reaction is teaching evolution in schools. Behold:
That’s a staggering divide, with a majority among all U.S. adults saying evolution probably or definitely didn’t happen versus a huge majority among “nones” saying that it probably or definitely did. Exit question: Imagine an America 100 years from now that’s majority non-religious. Imagine it.
Blowback
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“Knowing” and “not knowing” seem to be squishy, unhelpful categories to me.
I think “worshipful” and “irreverent” would be more helpful.
“Do you, or would you, worship a higher power: yes, no, or maybe?”
I’ll go with “no”.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:09 AM
I am telling you this because some propaganda now is widely dissemated whih promotes the idea that death is a peaceful and wonderful transistion(or just silence and nothingness) and this is NOT TRUE.
Death is NOT a peaceful thing but is frightening and horrible to those outside of Christ.
The demons which hate us and continually assault us with thoughts to lead us to evil, to lead us to spiritual death(which is being trapped in the world of the senses and a wholly materialistic perception of reality)and eventually to be able to claim us and drag us into hell with them(where they know they are going).
These demons hate us and while they are unable to truly attack us with their full power now while we are in our bodies..when we die and pass into their realm they will be unrestrained and they will attack you drag you to hades and torture you mercilessly. Those who have put on Christ will be guided safely by their guradian angel through this realm unharmed and will await the resurrection in paradise. Eventually there will be a resurrection and there will be a judgement where you will be accountable for everything you have done in your life and everyone will stand before the River of Fire of God( the Love of God). To those who love Christ this will be heaven. To those who hate Christ this will be hell and they will be eternally trapped in this horrible pychological state that we call hell.
MaximusConfessor on September 23, 2009 at 11:10 AM
I can see your point but I’d argue this is one of the functions religion is supposed to play in society. First a couple of comments. I don’t think that there is the dichotomy between the religious and the scientific as many atheists seem to see. There are a lot of scientists who are religious. I agree that it’s bad faith to claim scientists are lying. One can claim that they are wrong in specific instances but I don’t think they are lying.
I think it’s proper for religion to provide a moral compass to science. I’m not saying this should be imposed on science or scientists but I don’t think it’s a good idea for science to expunge morality either. There is a lot of science fiction that speaks to this point – just because something can be done doesn’t mean it should be.
gwelf on September 23, 2009 at 11:11 AM
To argue against that (other than to quibble over the magnitude of the word “many”) would be to remain willfully ignorant of the postings on this thread.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:11 AM
This is what I don’t get about these debates:
Christianity teaches us to be nice to each other, help out the less fortunate, and keep our hands to ourselves.
In and of itself, it’s some pretty sound philosophy there. So who cares how a person gets there, as long as he’s being nice, helping out the less fortunate, and keeping his hands to himself? An atheist may give me grief because I’m motivated to follow this path out of faith, but at the end of the day, so what?!? Because the way I get from A to B differs from his? Is that really it?
JohnTant on September 23, 2009 at 11:13 AM
Dog pile on Olaf, anyone?
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:14 AM
I seriously doubt that deists would call themselves non-theistic. Theism is the belief of at least one deity. Non-theistic is the belief in no God or gods. A “personal” God is a reformation construct. Jefferson was rejecting doctrinal protestantism not God. Gnostics were early Christian heretics who believed in material evil vs spiritual good. Gnostics were theists, with different views about the nature of man, evil, and the incarnation. Hard agnostics believe in a God or power of creation but that God is unrevealed and unknowable.
The line is theist/non-theist. The first believes in God or a “higher power”, the second that we are no more than material with no soul or conscience. The non-theist would have to believe that in a uniform and inert universe something, but they don’t know what, caused the big bang and started the changes that led to us. Of course that would presume a “first mover” but they don’t worry about that piece. The universe has a definite beginning in time but non-theists don’t have an answer for what began it.
Haunches on September 23, 2009 at 11:14 AM
You actually read his posts?
gwelf on September 23, 2009 at 11:15 AM
Case in point.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:15 AM
Not really, no.
He just has a way of offending everyone in the first few lines.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:16 AM
sigh…do atheists have any other line other than ‘you’re ignorant’ when disagreed with?
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:16 AM
religious refuse to accept scientific progress
Like?
Haunches on September 23, 2009 at 11:17 AM
What, do you think the experimenter was lying? Do you think God’s hand pushed some DNA around? Or perhaps, the more likely story, some Chlorella vulgaris already possessed a latent capability to adhere to each other, and it was merely selectively unfavorable before the predators were introduced?
Behe is merely indulging in unfounded speculation about the nature of the mutation, something even the person DOING the experiment doesn’t claim to know. Assertion without evidence proves nothing.
Looking at the experimental evidence I have provided, on the one hand, and the incredulous stare tactic and unfounded speculation you have provided on the other, I find it quite the other way around. But perhaps you have a trump card, or three, up your sleeve–some experiments that intelligent design originated, that confirm predictions of intelligent design, and contradict evolutionary theory. I eagerly await them.
Math_Mage on September 23, 2009 at 11:18 AM
Which is why “Jesus” and “Yahweh” (and martial arts, heh) are mentioned so prominently in the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. ::crickets::
We have a nation founded on the idea of natural (or, if you will, God-given) rights. It’s a Humanist basis, not Judeo-Christian. If you want to lay claim to Humanism and the idea of natural rights in the name of Jesus or Yahweh, go ahead. But that doesn’t change the fact that Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence was a non-theist with no special regard for Christian or Jewish values.
Mark Jaquith on September 23, 2009 at 11:21 AM
The question of what is the “first mover” isn’t any different with or without religion. “God did it” and “it all follows naturally once you assume the existence of the universe” both leave the question open, because you can still ask “where did God come from?” and “why does the universe exist?”
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:22 AM
yes it did…that capability was designed into it..much like the following:
link
BS. I didn’t notice Lenski disputing what he said.
lets see..the fossil record does not show evolution…the lab does not show evolution…the evidence you cited only shows ‘micro-evolution’ which you conflate to ‘macro’ all without a shred of evidence. explain the tuatara, which has the fastest rate of molecular ‘evolution’ ever seen and is yet a living dinosaur.
id predictions??
(1) High information content machine-like irreducibly complex structures will be found.
(2) Forms will be found in the fossil record that appear suddenly and without any precursors.
(3) Genes and functional parts will be re-used in different unrelated organisms.
(4) The genetic code will NOT contain much discarded genetic baggage code or functionless “junk DNA”.
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:23 AM
So let me get this straight. We cons aren’t allowed to judge. Our God can’t judge.
But Rywall? Oh yeah. Ultimate arbiter of morality.
Please Dave – explain to me why what the hijackers did was wrong without referencing a transcendent morality. This should be good.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 11:23 AM
Just look at this thread. Cosmology and evolutionary biology should jump right out at you.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:23 AM
Humanism also isn’t mentioned in the constitution. Sure, Jefferson wasn’t a Christian but there more Christians involved in the founding of our nation than not.
Also, Christianity, and Christian values, were in existence before and ‘informed’ Humanism. All of western culture and thinking has it’s roots in Christian thought.
gwelf on September 23, 2009 at 11:26 AM
To clarify – conservatives (including Christian conservatives) don’t believe there is a constitutional mandate to separate church and state – but that there is a freedom to practice religion and that the state is not to establish a religion (nor interfere with it’s practice).
Friction on this point usually arises in modern society because the state has it’s hands in so many aspects of culture and the institutions of society that someone praying in a school or a public prayer in a community with a predominance of religious people can be seen as a violation of the state establishing a religion – and Christians can see this as establishing a secular religion. Making you pray is wrong but so is preventing someone else from praying and so is telling a community that they cannot establish a local culture because it might involve religious practices.
The debate about the proper role of religion and government in culture and society can be had but it doesn’t need to involve attacking the personal beliefs (this goes both ways – religious people on HA get heated and say insulting things too).
gwelf on September 23, 2009 at 11:06 AM
——-
Christian POTUS says “God wants me to invade country X” or “Revelations wants us to do this”: not acceptable.
Praying is private. Worship is private. Keep the the nick nacks of Christianity out of government buildings and gatherings.
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 11:26 AM
This, by the way, is what I’m talking about. Pretty much all of these assertions are based not on evidence, but on the assumption that evolution must be wrong.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:27 AM
whats funny is cosmology and biology reinforce christianity…the more we find out about cosmology, the more designed the universe appears…same with biology.
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:28 AM
And highlighting the similarities between science and faith shows that scientists exercise some form of faith in their pursuit of science.
gwelf on September 23, 2009 at 11:28 AM
What an awesome system/racket. Everyone gets to enter heaven.
Even the 9/11 hijackers, if they chose to embrace Jesus in those last seconds of life.
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 8:25 AM
So let me get this straight. We cons aren’t allowed to judge. Our God can’t judge.
But Rywall? Oh yeah. Ultimate arbiter of morality.
Please Dave – explain to me why what the hijackers did was wrong without referencing a transcendent morality. This should be good.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 11:23 AM
——
I wasn’t judging anything.
I was pointing out the lunacy of that situation.
You can do the most atrocious things imaginable but as long as you repent, it’s alllll fine.
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 11:30 AM
really now? you mean like the fossil record and the lack of transitions?? hmmm??
or like ‘convergent evolution’ for example the squid and human have very similar eyes…
and the whole concept of ‘junk DNA’ has been junked..haven’t you heard??
it always comes down to evolution for atheists…which is just faith…as the evolution of the eye, which we have talked about before, or the sexes…nice how they both managed to ‘evolve’ at the right time isn’t it??
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:30 AM
…or that religion was fundamentally created and practiced in the same spirit as, or as a precursor to, science.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:31 AM
and count, you do know about Gould and Eldridge and ‘punctuated equilibrim’ right? or this…
link
where is your evidence??? hmmm??
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:32 AM
Well, I happen to be atheist, but I have at least one religious friend that would have the same argument with you, because he doesn’t have your need to place your interpretation of a multiply translated, primitive manuscript above the hard work and insights of those making observations about the rest of the world.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:34 AM
Both were informed by Greek philosophy. Few ideas occur in a vacuum.
dedalus on September 23, 2009 at 11:34 AM
As to a hypothetical POTUS wanting to invade a country for religious reasons this is allowed. You gave an extreme example but at it’s core is the idea that you cannot have a viewpoint that is based on any religious idea and be part of government – basically saying religious people can’t be citizens or serve in government. If the POTUS were to sign an executive order declaring that everyone in the nation will pray 5 times a day would be a violation.
As to keeping Christianity out of government gatherings…how do you define government gathering? Government is involved most aspects of our lives – is a high school graduation a government gathering?
gwelf on September 23, 2009 at 11:35 AM
but the atheists sure need to place their interpretation over the rest of us….
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:36 AM
That is the secret of existence…There is God.
There is nowhere that He is not.
He is continually revealing Himself to us at every moment.
Just because you are in spiritual death does not mean that it is not happening now.
It takes spiritual eyes to see this.
To not see this is spiritual death and is truly to have “scales” over ones eyes.
Christ Jesus the Logos of God is continually recreating,upholding and maintaining all of existence and He is eternally begotten of the Father.
The Holy Spirit is eternally proceeding from the Father.
This is knowledge and this is available to anyone who seeks Him.
MaximusConfessor on September 23, 2009 at 11:37 AM
I don’t see a great incompatibility between religion and science. Many of the same motives are involved with both – it just so happens that religion is better suited to answering some questions than science and science is better suited to answering some questions than religion.
gwelf on September 23, 2009 at 11:37 AM
you know whats interesting about these conversations with atheists about evolution is that they rarely back up their assertions with links, evidence, etc….they just make pronouncements from on high…and expect the rest of us to blindly follow their interpretations..
as far as evolutionists doing ‘hard work’ all they do is tell stories…twist the evidence to fit their atheism.
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:37 AM
Still waiting for you to tell me why you think those things were wrong in the first place. Do you, even? Were they actually just brave freedom fighters striking out against American Imperialism, Dave? Inquiring minds want to know.
Your moral system, which seems to simultaneously condemn Christianity for its “lunacy” (such a judgmental proposition!), while asserting that we don’t have the right to judge is … well fascinating. It’s almost as if it places you at the center of all moral understanding.
What’s today’s diktat Dave? We wait with baited breathe.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Explain. I’m all ears. Who is forcing you, and to do what, exactly?
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:39 AM
I agree.
I think that ‘Christianity’ became the great successor to the Grecian philosophy/’culture’ (after it was adopted and modified by the Romans, etc).
gwelf on September 23, 2009 at 11:40 AM
News Flash: most of them aren’t atheists. There just aren’t enough of us to fill all of those positions, don’t cha know.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:40 AM
There doesn’t have to be, though it requires a certain amount of flexibility that right4life apparently lacks.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:43 AM
the ones that don’t bow down to darwin are run out on a rail…see sternberg, crocker, gonzales, etc…
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:43 AM
did you see what happened to sternberg, crocker, and gonzales??? hmmmm??
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:44 AM
These threads would be much better if someone with the tag “DarthVader11″ responed to every AP article that mentioned his atheism with: “I find your lack of faith disturbing.”
jhffmn on September 23, 2009 at 11:44 AM
lets see I’m supposed to be ‘flexible’ towards darwin…but darwinists are NEVER ‘flexible’ towards ID….no surprise.
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:44 AM
That is the secret of existence…There is the universe.
There is nowhere that It is not.
It is continually revealing Itself to us at every moment.
______
See how that works?
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:45 AM
Um,
A) There’s no “s” in Revelation.
B) Which president ever said that God or the Bible required him to invade a nation? I mean, I would not necessarily have a problem with it, since “So help me God” has been stated by most of not all POTUSes who took the oath of office.
C) There are many Bible verses on buildings in D.C.
You should get out more, Dave, we’re concerned about you. You need to depend less on your imagination and become more acquainted with facts, son.
Akzed on September 23, 2009 at 11:46 AM
“Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.” -Article III of the Northwest Ordinance (An Ordinance for the Government of the Territory of the United States, North-West of the River Ohio), enacted under the Articles of Confederation July 13th, 1787, and re-enacted under the Constitution on August 7, 1789.
“Laus Deo,” Latin for “Praise God.” -Inscribed on the eastern face of the apex of the Washington Monument in Washington, D.C., so placed as to be the first thing illuminated at sunrise in our nation’s capitol.
“Holiness unto the Lord,” Exodus 28:36. “Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not; for such is the Kingdom of God,” St. Luke 18:16. “Search the Scriptures,” St. John 5:39. -Inscribed on the starircase walls inside the Washington Monument, Washington, D.C.
“Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof,” Leviticus 25:10. -Inscribed on the Libert Bell.
“In God we Trust.” -The official motto of the United States of America. It is found on the wall in the well of the U.S. Congress behind the seat of the Speaker of the House. It is also found in your wallet.
Akzed on September 23, 2009 at 11:47 AM
I believe there is no God, but I know I can’t prove it. Hence my uncertainty as to which term best suits.
This is a straw man. I do not have to take a ‘survival of the fittest mentality’ just because I don’t believe God ordained an absolute morality. First of all, evolutionary theory and natural selection are descriptive, not normative; they’re not suggestions for how animal populations SHOULD live, just descriptions of how they DO. Second, simple self-interest suggests that I treat other people well by default, and only deviate from this principle under extraordinary circumstances. Have you heard of the prisoner’s dilemma? The generally accepted ‘best’ program for playing that game is Tit-for-Tat: Play nice at the start, and after that treat the other guy the same way he treated you the previous round. I see no reason why this and similar counterintuitive questions of self-interest cannot form the basis for a sound morality even without religious influence.
If “virtually all” meant “a few of the most visible,” then I might agree.
And the ambivalent doubting Thomases, where do they fit in? Oh, wait, I forgot…anyone who isn’t a Christian must hate Christ. Of course! Everything’s so much clearer now!
Math_Mage on September 23, 2009 at 11:47 AM
No, I didn’t.
Are these profs that got the boot for pushing bad science?
Did you think Ward Churchill should have kept his job?
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:48 AM
“One God, one Law, one element, and faroff Divine event to which the whole creation moves.” -Alfred Lord Tennyson, in the rotunda of the Library of Congress.
“The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits,” 2 St. Timothy 2:6. -Inscribed on the front of the Department of Agriculture, Washington, D.C.
Akzed on September 23, 2009 at 11:48 AM
“…if American champions of civil liberty could all think in terms of economic freedom as the goal of their labors, they too would accept ‘workers’ democracy’ as far superior to what the capitalist world offers to any but a small minority. Yes, and they would accept — regretfully, of course — the necessity of dictatorship while the job of reorganizing society on a socialist basis is being done.” -Roger Baldwin, Unitarian, Founding Director of the American Civil Liberties Union, Freedom in the USA and the USSR, 1934.
“I am for socialism, disarmament, and ultimately for abolishing the State itself as an instrument of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control by those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal.” -Roger Baldwin, from his entry in his thirtieth anniversary Harvard University classbook, 1935.
Akzed on September 23, 2009 at 11:49 AM
you mean for disagreeing with darwinism…they were punished for their disbelief…
the ‘bad science’ is so much BS…like everything else you post!
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:50 AM
“Ignorance is the curse of God, knowledge the wing wherewith we fly to heaven.” -In the North Hall of the Library of Congress under a painting called, “Knowledge.”
Akzed on September 23, 2009 at 11:50 AM
oh and how can say you didn’t know about them…and then in the next sentence say they got the boot????
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:51 AM
You can do the most atrocious things imaginable but as long as you repent, it’s alllll fine.
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 11:30 AM
Still waiting for you to tell me why you think those things were wrong in the first place. Do you, even? Were they actually just brave freedom fighters striking out against American Imperialism, Dave? Inquiring minds want to know.
Your moral system, which seems to simultaneously condemn Christianity for its “lunacy” (such a judgmental proposition!), while asserting that we don’t have the right to judge is … well fascinating. It’s almost as if it places you at the center of all moral understanding.
What’s today’s diktat Dave? We wait with baited breathe.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 11:38 AM
———-
Why? They were murderous acts of terrorism. That’s why.
Not sure what you’re “baiting” your “breathe” with. Communion wafers?
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 11:52 AM
From the Constitutions of all Fifty of the United States of America:
Alabama 1901, Preamble We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.
Alaska 1956, Preamble We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land…
Arizona 1911, Preamble We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution…
Arkansas 1874, Preamble We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government…
California 1879, Preamble We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom…
Colorado 1876, Preamble We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe…
Connecticut 1818, Preamble The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy…
Delaware 1897, Preamble Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.
Florida 1885, Preamble We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution…
Georgia 1777, Preamble We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution…
Hawaii 1959, Preamble We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance… Establish this Constitution.
Idaho 1889, Preamble We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings…
Illinois 1870, Preamble We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors…
Indiana 1851, Preamble We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government…
Iowa 1857, Preamble We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution.
Kansas 1859, Preamble We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.
Kentucky 1891, Preamble We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties…
Louisiana 1921, Preamble We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy…
Maine 1820, Preamble We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity… And imploring His aid and direction…
Maryland 1776, Preamble We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty…
Massachusetts 1780, Preamble We…the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe… In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction…
Michigan 1908, Preamble We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.
Minnesota, 1857, Preamble We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings…
Mississippi 1890, Preamble We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work…
Missouri 1845, Preamble We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness… establish this Constitution.
Montana 1889, Preamble We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution.
Nebraska 1875, Preamble We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom… establish this Constitution.
Nevada 1864, Preamble We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution.
New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.
New Jersey 1844, Preamble We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors…
New Mexico 1911, Preamble We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty…
New York 1846, Preamble We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings…
North Carolina 1868, Preamble We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those…
North Dakota 1889, Preamble We , the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain…
Ohio 1852, Preamble We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common…
Oklahoma 1907, Preamble Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty… establish this…
Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2 All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences…
Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance
Rhode Island 1842, Preamble We the People of the State of Rhode Island, grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing…
South Carolina, 1778, Preamble We, the people of the State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
South Dakota 1889, Preamble We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties…
Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience…
Texas 1845, Preamble We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God…
Utah 1896, Preamble Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.
Vermont 1777, Preamble Whereas all government ought to enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man…
Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other…
Washington 1889, Preamble We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution.
West Virginia 1872, Preamble Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God…
Wisconsin 1848, Preamble We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility…
Wyoming 1890, Preamble We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties… establish this Constitution.
Akzed on September 23, 2009 at 11:52 AM
No it doesn’t work.
The universe is not infinite and you know that.
MaximusConfessor on September 23, 2009 at 11:52 AM
We have little reason to think that it is finite, and a number of reasons to think it isn’t.
But that is besides the point.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Complaints I’ve heard from atheists that involve religion being mixed with government gatherings has to do with someone saying a prayer or some other innocuous religions practice that’s part of tradition. And, as you mention, religious references on buildings etc.
Really, if this is the biggest complaint you have then this is a tempest in a tea-pot. If the greatest infringement of religion into government amounts to a guy saying a prayer or some ‘procedural’ and traditional practice then I’d say government is definitely not establishing a religion.
gwelf on September 23, 2009 at 11:56 AM
Everyone has a master whom they serve with their works.
Their works will reprove them. There is the hate for Christ.
MaximusConfessor on September 23, 2009 at 11:56 AM
“Say”?
I asked a question. Perhaps you should consider what your answer implies.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:57 AM
Agreed.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 11:58 AM
perhaps you shouldn’t lie in your posts…
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 11:59 AM
According to who, Dave? I mean, really, if you accept the axioms of some belief systems, such strikes against a corrupt and imperialistic culture as America’s are just – even necessary.
Really, Dave, who are you to judge?
Ah, I forgot again. Dave Rywall is the source of all moral understanding. Please do forgive me.
Of course, you could disabuse me of that notion by positing some sort of coherent moral philosophy. I’m waiting.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 12:00 PM
Protecting a bit?
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 12:01 PM
Akzed on September 23, 2009 at 11:52 AM
——-
You cannot possibly be suggesting that because those things were written 100-200 years ago means they should be there today.
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 12:01 PM
you don’t read your own posts obviously…they’re a hoot..you go from one BS accusation to another..but you never back up what you post…
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 12:03 PM
Why? They were murderous acts of terrorism. That’s why.
Not sure what you’re “baiting” your “breathe” with. Communion wafers?
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 11:52 AM
According to who, Dave? I mean, really, if you accept the axioms of some belief systems, such strikes against a corrupt and imperialistic culture as America’s are just – even necessary.
Really, Dave, who are you to judge?
Ah, I forgot again. Dave Rywall is the source of all moral understanding. Please do forgive me.
Of course, you could disabuse me of that notion by positing some sort of coherent moral philosophy. I’m waiting.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 12:00 PM
——-
Sorry you’re so obtuse and do not understand the concept of people getting together to make rules and regs to govern civilized society.
I cannot help you.
That is my judgement.
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 12:03 PM
I’ll go with life, liberty, and property, with an auxiliary of truthfulness and general honesty. Everything else mostly follows logically from that.
If I may add my two cents, that is.
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 12:04 PM
…
Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 12:05 PM
;;;;;;;;;;
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 12:10 PM
Wow you have it all figured out. I know this was in response to someone else but I felt compelled to respond. Above you take some Christian beliefs and put them in your own rapper so they sound good for your story,(cannibalistic ritual) that’s nothing but artistic license on your part.
So was your Pavlov’s dog an Atheist?
We all believe what we believe based on what we have been taught, learned from our own study, or based on some type of event in our lives that has changed us.
I am a Christian and proud of it. You are not and that’s your choice and I won’t try to change your mind. That said your comments seem to have an awful lot of hatred and bias and then you appear to be taking the role of a psychiatrist giving your theory with your last statement (fooled as a child). I think you may have some issues you need to deal with yourself.
I’m going to pray for you too though.
New Patriot on September 23, 2009 at 12:12 PM
Darwinism is a theory. Creationism is also a theory. You are arguing two theories. I’m leaving to pick up my children at Catholic school which is, by the way, more conservative and far better than the public school. I pay for both. They also get to learn values, gasp.
Libtards are dangerous. They denounce religion in the hope that the lack helps to destroy the american family. Keep worshipping your secular gods and help the communists take the country.
Haunches on September 23, 2009 at 12:13 PM
“the following” being Lamarckism, and not intelligent design…so are you arguing that Chlorella vulgaris also follow Lamarckian processes?
If the capability was designed into it, why don’t we see it at all in the wild? Chlorella vulgaris is not purely a laboratory phenomenon, but the multicellular version is.
Lenski is not obligated to respond to every crank who writes a blog. Michael Behe is perhaps more famous than most cranks, but that makes his point no more valid, because HE DOESN’T HAVE THE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP HIS SPECULATIONS. This isn’t debate class. Who responds to who isn’t the issue. The issue is evidence, and Behe has none.
Macroevolution is formally defined as evolution at or above the level of speciation. I have shown multiple speciation events, and I can provide a few dozen more if you really want me to. But if you would like to redefine macroevolution, go right on ahead.
As for the fossil record, your claim that there are no transitional fossils is simply false. If you google ‘transitional fossil list’, you come across these links:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200.html
http://www.holysmoke.org/tran-icr.htm
http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/03/14/handy-list-of-transition-fossils-seven-missing-links-for-handy-reference/
I suppose you could simply claim that every single one of these sites, and all of the scientists and archaeologists who discovered and analyzed these fossils, is untrustworthy or mistaken. Then you’ll claim that 9/11 was a government plot.
Which, as the scientists doing the study noted, “is not surprising because the biological processes underlying DNA sequence evolution and those that govern changes in morphology are very different.”
doi:10.1016/j.tig.2008.11.001
(1) is a truism and not worth the effort it takes to write down.
(2) is a truism because we don’t discover whole lines of transitional fossils all at once; they come one at a time, if at all, since fossilization is a relatively rare event.
(3) is the result of horizontal gene transfer, hypothesized to be the dominant mechanism of evolution at the level of single-celled organisms and not uncommon in more complex ones.
(4) is simply false. Especially interesting are particular bits of junk DNA that we hold in common with other primates. Look up endogenous retroviruses some time, and study the fragments they leave behind.
Math_Mage on September 23, 2009 at 12:13 PM
The universe is not infinite and you know that.
MaximusConfessor on September 23, 2009 at 11:52 AM
Really? The universe is infinite? Is that why you are just growing younger and younger instead of getting older and older and decaying?
Man, not even the most blatantly satanic, NWO banker bought propaganda artists promote that garbage. It’s untenable.
What kind of wacky and crazy cosmology do you hold to? Or let me guess,like most stupid and brainwashed Americans, you’re too busy being dumbed down by watching propaganda programming to even think about it.
MaximusConfessor on September 23, 2009 at 12:16 PM
expelledexposed.com
Please don’t blindly agree with everything Ben Stein says, it’s sickening to watch. Next you’ll be on to the whole “Darwinism leads to Hitler!!!” nonsense.
Math_Mage on September 23, 2009 at 12:17 PM
The universe is thought to be bounded but infinite. Try wrapping your head around that concept BEFORE you respond.
Math_Mage on September 23, 2009 at 12:18 PM
Well there we go. I knew you could do it with a little prompting. I’m so proud of you Dave. Warms my black little heart.
Anyway, we’re going with some sort of consensus based morality then? A social construction I see. Ah, fine, fine.
So. Why is the social construction that you’ve chosen to endorse better and more valid than other social constructions? What happens to those who don’t buy into the consensus? What compels them to join? Threat of violence from the larger group perhaps?
So might makes right then? Are you getting all Hobbesian on me now?
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 12:22 PM
the following being DESIGNED. oh and if lamarck is true..darwin is false.
so list the mutations that cause this.
obviously he does…just because you dismiss it, is meaningless.
oh this is such BS…creationists believe in speciation too…yipee. so why don’t you list the mutations that led to the eye then?? hmmm?? should be easy.
these transitions are often disputed by evolutionists themselves….and how could Gould and Eldridge come up with punctuated equilibrium if there were so many transitions….and why did the biologist I quoted earlier come up with the ‘biological big bang’??
so micro evolution doesn’t add up to macro then….thanks for admitting it.
interesting when people like miller deny such a thing even exists….
first you say there are transitions, now you agree they are few and far between…and don’t show evolution. You know we’ve had 150 years and have had found a boatload of fossils…evolution should be clear…but instead we get punctuated equilibrium….
right…like the example of the eye I gave before in the squid and human…it just ‘happened’ shazam!!
BS.
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 12:23 PM
Because why? You say so? The group says so?
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 12:23 PM
Non religous doesn’t necessarily mean, non spiritual. You can be devoted to God, and all that imbues Him, without having to be in a pew of a certain denomination each week.
capejasmine on September 23, 2009 at 12:26 PM
When the government gave low income people homes, they didn’t take care of them, they did not respect what was so freely given to them. They didn’t acknowledge that working people actually had their money taken from them, and given to the low income so they could survive. Beggars are seldom, if ever, thankful for a handout, they usually just want more, and more, and complain that they don’t have enough.
Such are the atheists living here…the faithful has built the hospitals, the universities, they care for the least among us. Every night tens of thousands of abused or homeless are cared for…tens of thousands of children are given a safe place to stay. Thousands each year are given clothing, food, rent, and jobs. When disaster strikes, the faithful are the first to open their doors, their pantry, and give of their time.
This happens almost automatically, in unison, every day, every night, and it has never stopped since the birth of this nation.
Atheists have written books, articles, but they have never built a sanctuary of peace, a hospital, a shelter for abused women, or children. When AIDS came upon us,it was the Catholic Church who set up the hospitals to care for the dying…not the atheists. When transmission of that disease was unknown, Catholics are the ones who came forth to care for and loving the ones who were dying from a disease that was foreign, reminiscent of Father Damien.
Yet, the atheists feed at the trough of life that the faithful have provided…and like most beggars, they don’t acknowledge their donors…they are too busy taking. AIDs activists have heaped scorn on the church that paved the way to proper health care…such is an atheist. So quick to take, and so seldom to give…greedy, self serving, and have contributed little to the worth of this country. Beggars, simple beggars, not understanding where their good fortunes actually flow from…
right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 12:26 PM
NCSEExposed.org
and yes darwinism led to hitler….its rather obvious…
link
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 12:26 PM
Thou shalt not rain on Allahpundits parade.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 12:28 PM
Really? So you think you’re a scientist and that makes you some sort of priest of society whose “authority” is final?
The reality is you are just some moron who doesn’t know what the hell he is talking about and is missing the entire point.
The universe is created by God,He encompasses it, is within it and beyond it.
Think a living organism that can be interacted with,which changes ones perception of reality as one progresses in knowledge and praxis.
If you scientists do not understand this then you are missing the entire point and all of your science is just garbage,like looking at a shell or wrapper and speculating what was in it or not.
MaximusConfessor on September 23, 2009 at 12:29 PM
Those laudable things–being nice, helping others, etc–are not biblical Christianity. Some try to do those things by an act of will to earn their way to heaven, but that’s a distortion of biblical Christianity.
Salvation is a by faith in Christ alone. Our good works don’t add one thing to our salvation. Sinners must come to the throne of grace empty-handed. Being good and/or doing good is by-product, not means. Things like works, love, and joy are fruit of the Spirit. They evidence saving faith, they are not the essence of faith.
flyfisher on September 23, 2009 at 12:30 PM
I don’t care and it’s not surprising. The Bible predicts this anyway. So, I will keep my faith even if I’m the only one.
Jesus asked, “…when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”
CliffHanger on September 23, 2009 at 12:33 PM
oh and Chlorella goes back to being unicell once the predator is gone….
link
so how can that be evolution?
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 12:34 PM
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 12:26 PM
——-
Hitler like Darwin.
Hitler bad.
So Darwin Bad.
AWESOME
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 12:34 PM
at least you’re good for a few laughs.
right4life on September 23, 2009 at 12:36 PM
The unbelievers hold the clear majority in the Scandinavian countries and the main battle in the next decades in Europe will be between secularism and Islam with Christianity becoming at best a bit player whose last holdouts will be in the countries of the defunct Warsaw Pact.
Canada is moving along on the secularist path in a speedy manner. In two generations Québec has become mostly secular with the many churches closed or used for other purposes. On the other hand, mosques are opening everywhere.
The trend will eventually hit the U.S. whose percentage of believers is in part buoyed up by the “immigrant” population from south of the border (95% Catholic).
Annar on September 23, 2009 at 12:37 PM
Every Christian should read this Al Mohler piece…twice.
Why Moralism Is Not the Gospel — And Why So Many Christians Think It Is
flyfisher on September 23, 2009 at 12:38 PM
I’m approaching it from a secular standpoint, not a religious one. But since you bring it up, my faith in Christ compels me to be nice to other people. From a non-religious viewpoint, the takeaway should be that I’m a good person, not in the why I’m motivated to be a good person.
However, in this thread I think there are numerous problems wtih that compulsion, even though it really doesn’t matter in the final analysis. If an atheist believes this life is all there is, I’d hope he’d be more concerned with the if people are acting well over the why.
JohnTant on September 23, 2009 at 12:43 PM
Canada is moving along on the secularist path in a speedy manner. In two generations Québec has become mostly secular with the many churches closed or used for other purposes. On the other hand, mosques are opening everywhere.
Annar on September 23, 2009 at 12:37 PM
——-
Mosques are opening everywhere in Quebec? Really? Like where?
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 12:43 PM
Dave: I have to disagree with you here. I’m a Christian American and I believe that I don’t have the right to judge, only God has the right to judge people. Why make blanket statements that just are not true? There are always the extremists on both sides of any issue and claiming that they are the majority is wrong. I think the problem comes from some of the “religions”, which are man made and interpret the bible in different ways. Some quite radically.
New Patriot on September 23, 2009 at 12:43 PM
That is like saying that the lungs are more important then the stomach…neither can exist without the other, yet they are separate.
We are saved by grace alone, but faith without works….well we will let the bible sort it out. You can take it up with the Author, and tell Him he is wrong.
right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 12:49 PM
Beef 2: Christian Amercians act as if they’re more worthy/valid citizens than people of other faiths or no faith
End of beefs
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 10:51 AM
Dave: I have to disagree with you here. I’m a Christian American and I believe that I don’t have the right to judge, only God has the right to judge people. Why make blanket statements that just are not true? There are always the extremists on both sides of any issue and claiming that they are the majority is wrong. I think the problem comes from some of the “religions”, which are man made and interpret the bible in different ways. Some quite radically.
New Patriot on September 23, 2009 at 12:43 PM
——-
Don’t have the right to judge?
W T F
You’re a human being. You judge people every day in every single interaction you have with them.
Dave Rywall on September 23, 2009 at 12:50 PM
Or Dave does, anyway. After all, his particular tribe’s morals are superior.
If you don’t agree, he’ll … well … what will you do, Dave? Another matter for curiosity.
I know it’s easier to not think about this stuff, secure in your belief that your enlightened nature makes you better (and therefore, more correct) than we benighted troglodytes. But it’s profitable, I think. After all, your beliefs on this issue will form the foundation of your worldview.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 12:55 PM
The only time the phrase “faith alone” is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24)Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.
Sola Fide is a condemned heresy.
Calvinism is a condemned heresy.
Sola Scriptura is also a condemned heresy. See 2 Thess 2:15
The relativist,weak and confused form of Christianity in America(protestantism/”non denominationalism”) does not know the Holy Tradition and it makes their christians not understand the faith and be weak in praxis and unity.
It has weakened American Christians to the point that it enables the Anti-Christ humanists and NWO bankers to be as effective as they are in propagandizing this country and leading us to the point of ruin and persecution.
As more Americans learn that the Holy Church that Christ founded(the Orthodox Church)still exists, holds the Holy Tradition and has for 2,000 years, they will convert,join the Holy Church,practice effectively and be able to withstand the enemy and combat the AntiChist humanists in their mad pursuit to remove Christ from the government and society.
MaximusConfessor on September 23, 2009 at 1:00 PM
Probably the only thing we could agree on…but for different reasons.
Jesus has asked us to judge others, what do you think most of his parables were about?
We are given the task of judging actions, we just can’t judge what is in a man’s heart.
A baby sitter comes to the door, tatted up, smoking, smells like alcohol…I think you make a judgment right there. Not on what you think she is thinking, but on her “actions”.
In fact, Jesus thinks we should judge our leaders even more…they are held to a higher standard, and how do you measure a “standard”, you have to judge their actions.
A pastor shows up with a 20 year old, short skirted, high heeled honey (boy or girl), snapping gum, and I think you would make a judgment.
right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 1:01 PM
I’m not going to get into doctrinal squabbles, but for the record, I think this guy’s a loony. He’s also been a loony since he was banned the first time.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 1:02 PM
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