Oh my: One quarter of Americans could be non-religious in 20 years

posted at 9:04 pm on September 22, 2009 by Allahpundit

In 1990, we were eight percent of the population; today we’re 15 percent and climbing. The good news? We’re taking over. The bad news? It’s, er, not quite clear who “we” are.

American religious nones tend to be religious skeptics as opposed to outright atheists. Fewer than ten percent of those identifying with no religious tradition call themselves atheists or hold atheistic beliefs, according to the new study.

“American nones are kind of agnostic and deistic, so it’s a very American kind of skepticism,” says Barry Kosmin, director of Trinity’s Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture. “It’s a kind of religious indifference that’s not hostile to religion the way they are in France. Franklin and Jefferson would have recognized these people.”

Only seven percent of the non-religious are atheist — versus 27 percent who believe in a “personal god”? Dude, weak:

What kind of “non-religious” person believes in a personal god, anyway? This kind, I guess.

There are, of course, political implications here:

Secular voters once constituted an important part of the GOP coalition, but fewer than 10 percent of religious nones under age 30 are Republican. “Republican nones are getting older and continue to show an affinity to the GOP,” says Juhen Navarro-Rivera, a Trinity College research fellow who helped compile the new report. “But they’re not making new Republican nones.”

Navarro-Rivera is still running the numbers, but his hunch is that the new generation of religious nones has been scared away from the Republican Party because of its ties to the Christian right. Does the GOP continue to embrace that movement or move more to the middle? Call it the Sarah Palin option versus the John McCain option. (Though opposition to healthcare reform, it should be noted, is helping bring the two camps together.)

Here’s a graphic breakdown of the partisan split. Note how much wider the gap is among “nones” since 1990: From a 27/21 Democratic advantage to 34/13 now.

No surprise either to find that “nones” are already at or above 20 percent on the west coast and in the northeast, where the GOP’s collapsed over the past 10 years:

As fascinating and portentous as all this is, the only issue I can think of where religious affiliation might strongly drive the partisan reaction is teaching evolution in schools. Behold:

That’s a staggering divide, with a majority among all U.S. adults saying evolution probably or definitely didn’t happen versus a huge majority among “nones” saying that it probably or definitely did. Exit question: Imagine an America 100 years from now that’s majority non-religious. Imagine it.


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Some of the comments in this thread towards atheists are not cool at all. I don’t get offended much, so it’s a pretty weird feeling for me.

jhffmn on September 23, 2009 at 2:08 PM

I think we both have a right to defend ourselves…what confuses many is that as it gets “amped” up, they become shocked that a person of faith will actually fight back and defend themselves.
We expect atheists to defend themselves…but they often are aghast that a person of faith won’t take their insults.
Many people attack, thinking they won’t be attacked…then they become indignant that a “Christian” isn’t turning the other cheek.

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 3:39 PM

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 3:39 PM

If you didn’t see my apology before, sorry.
I…um…confused your tag with right4life, who I’ve been having a running argument with.

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 3:41 PM

If you want documentation, go look it up yourself. Unlike anecdotal events, this isn’t the kind of thing that lends itself to cute little article references, as you have shown over and over. I’m just pointing out what you haven’t learned, and don’t really have much hope of teaching it to you in this format.

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 3:31 PM

uh yeah right…in other words..ya got nothing…

you little wacko darwiniacs…always parroting how ignorant we are for denying your hairygod and his racist theory…when again and again you prove who is truly ignorant.

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 3:41 PM

The problem isn’t so much their Bible-thumping as it is that they let the socialists use it to talk them into things.

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 3:32 PM

please…most atheists are socialists…christians make up the backbone of conservatism in this country…think Buckley the founder…very catholic as is the National Review…..

more ignorance.

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 3:42 PM

That is how, not why, you goof.

that is why you goof.

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 3:43 PM

The problem isn’t so much their Bible-thumping as it is that they let the socialists use it to talk them into things.

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 3:32 PM

I believe you will find more secular thinking, more atheists in the liberals movement…the faithful have never relied on the government.
Good try though, you really are desperate to try to tie Christians to socialists.
Government is the bane of religion…it is the communists and marxists that want to remove religion from life, want to replace God with the government.

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 3:44 PM

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 3:44 PM

its rather obvious he thinks we are ignorant and easily led…when actually its the atheists who are so….more projection on his part…

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM

If you didn’t see my apology before, sorry.
I…um…confused your tag with right4life, who I’ve been having a running argument with.

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 3:41 PM

No apology needed, but thanks.
To tell you the truth, with atheists, I am usually not talking to them specifically (Matthew 7:6), you won’t change your mind, and I don’t care to try to change it. I usually either jerk their chain, or I like to correct their misstatements…other words, I don’t take anything so personal from someone who doesn’t know me personally.
Most of you are just testing your ideas, they will change in a few years…most do.
And most of the arguments against religion can be found on about three different anti-Christian websites…they are old (hundreds of years old) and trite, and rather simplistic.

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Government is the bane of religion…it is the communists and marxists that want to remove religion from life, want to replace God with the government.

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 3:44 PM

This is true though part of the motivation may be that communist (and non-communist) revolutions overthrow the existing hierarchy, which churches have been integrated with. The churches offer a counter-narrative to the the remaking of society that a revolution requires. In most cases the church as an institution of learning and organizing is the threat to the revolutionary leaders, much more so than issues of spiritual belief or worship.

dedalus on September 23, 2009 at 3:52 PM

I believe you will find more secular thinking, more atheists in the liberals movement…the faithful have never relied on the government.
Good try though, you really are desperate to try to tie Christians to socialists.
Government is the bane of religion…it is the communists and marxists that want to remove religion from life, want to replace God with the government.

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 3:44 PM

No, no, I agree, in general. I was pointing out that where religious organizations have gone bad when entering politics is when they lead around by the socialists. There is no denying that this happens, considering all of the Jacksons and Sharptons of the world.

Also, be aware: having reconsidered removing religion from life, some socialists have turned to co-opting and subsuming it.

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 4:00 PM

That is how, not why, you goof.

that is why you goof.

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 3:43 PM

Are you just playing now, or did you really not understand what I was saying?

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 4:01 PM

AP, does hotair pay you by the page view? This whole “wow I’m an atheist, you guys suck” routine is great for getting page views. Seriously though, you’ve never told me where the Universe came from, or why.

jeffthevoter on September 23, 2009 at 4:04 PM

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 4:00 PM

Even you would admit that many call themselves “men of the cloth” for the purposes of popularity, yet have no real ties to a religious faith…like Rev. Jackson.
Just because someone says they are, doesn’t mean they are…I think Rino’s are a good comparison.
But I get your point when looking at say the Catholic religion and them cozying up to dictators in South America for example.
Which is why Jesus was so specific about the fallibility of man…and that you judge his actions, not what you think is in his heart or what he says.
Remove your religious context, and you will see His words hold just as true in a secular world, as a religious one…Truth is Truth, no matter the context.

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 4:17 PM

Remove your religious context, and you will see His words hold just as true in a secular world, as a religious one…Truth is Truth, no matter the context.

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 4:17 PM

Let me give you another example of how consistant Christ’s words are. He say take things in prayer.
Well, you take the religion out of it, and you are left with…contemplation. Start your day off with thinking about the important things you need to accomplish, and the important people you need to meet and you have a list of things to ponder. You ponder, I pray, but they organize our day…there is a practical side to what He says. When He says help your fellow man, it is to not have him taken care by the government, or be discarded which becomes an even larger burden.
Most everything is practical, biblically, Truth is Truth…

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 4:23 PM

Are you just playing now, or did you really not understand what I was saying?

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 4:01 PM

I post because they let me…how hard is this??? I don’t have any mission or motive…its just something to do…

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 4:24 PM

Also, be aware: having reconsidered removing religion from life, some socialists have turned to co-opting and subsuming it.

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 4:00 PM

gramsci’s long march has been very successful in the mainline protestant churches…look at the world and national council of churches…communist front groups…I despise them…

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 4:26 PM

On that note, this country was founded by Christians fleeing a secularist government at home. The America they founded is a Christian nation and Atheism is TREASON.

Khorum on September 23, 2009 at 1:23 PM

Oh what a load of crap. The pilgrims on the Mayflower did not organize a country. They started a single settlement, and then more and more people came to the North American continent, both Dutch and English. Descendents of those people later founded a country, but to imply the pilgrims founded a country themselves, is disingenous to say the lease.

Its people like you who would prefer a Theocracy over a Democracy, and who think those who are not Christians should be second class citizens, well that scare people into going to the Democrats.

please…most atheists are socialists…christians make up the backbone of conservatism in this country…think Buckley the founder…very catholic as is the National Review…..

more ignorance.

right4life on September 23, 2009

Oh another load of crap, that atheism = socialism. This idea that someone being a Christian makes them automatically a better American, is about a big of a fallacy as it can get.

and BTW, William Buckley was NOT A SOCIAL CONSERVATIVE, he had nothing in common with evangelical social conservatives. He was a traditional small government Republican, and that idea is contrary to many social conservatives who see politics and government as a vehicle to advance religious beliefs.

And if social conservatives were such good Americans, why did they overwhelmingly support Jimmy Carter? Oh yeah, it was because he was born again. Oh and didn’t social conservatives overwhelmingly support FDRs New Deal too. That could be described as socialism in action.

People in hispanic gangs in the US are very devout Catholics too, so what happened there to them being such good Americans. Same with the Mafia, very devoutly religious.

I have no interest in someones theologic beliefs, that is their own business and not mine. But when those who are religious think that their own beliefs should put them ahead of others and that the government should get into the business of supporting religion, do more to actually hurt America and to help leftists.

Unfortunately the rest of the country is tilting Democrat, because of people who want to mix religion and politics, scares off people, even religious ones, who want to see politics and religion kept seperate.

firepilot on September 23, 2009 at 4:33 PM

Oh another load of crap, that atheism = socialism. This idea that someone being a Christian makes them automatically a better American, is about a big of a fallacy as it can get.

really? guess marx had it wrong then…along with Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot…you get the picture.

and BTW, William Buckley was NOT A SOCIAL CONSERVATIVE, he had nothing in common with evangelical social conservatives. He was a traditional small government Republican, and that idea is contrary to many social conservatives who see politics and government as a vehicle to advance religious beliefs

this is laughable…buckley was anti-abortion. and about as catholic as they come.

And if social conservatives were such good Americans, why did they overwhelmingly support Jimmy Carter?

he was anti-abortion…at least he proclaimed himself one…against FORD??? oh please thats some choice there…laughable.

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 4:39 PM

People in hispanic gangs in the US are very devout Catholics too, so what happened there to them being such good Americans. Same with the Mafia, very devoutly religious.

gee, I didn’t know murder and drug-dealing were part of christianity and catholocism..

thanks for uh ‘enlightening’ me…

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Well, I’m sure the bickering in this comment thread between various creeds surely gives atheists something to chuckle over.

The main societal value I see in a large portion of the population holding to a traditional faith- preferably the same one- is that there is an anchor, something outside oneself that is deeply enduring and not subject (much) to the whims of Zeitgeist. In that sense, it certainly is lamentable that our society is losing its historical Christianity. I believe we’ll be the poorer and more vulnerable for it. There’s nothing really to be done about it, however. Certainly not ever greater attempts to codify in law what used to be enforced by social consensus. Some of that is necessary because you do have to draw lines, but it’s a devil’s bargain. Pun intended.

As for atheists, particularly the noisy “new atheists,” let’s hope they grow a greater humility as they feel more safety in numbers. Like it or not, you are cultural hangers-on. It’s okay, really. Christianity is a hanger-on of Judaism and Hellenism. Perhaps your contribution eventually will even have something to offer society. Thus far, not so much.

evergreen on September 23, 2009 at 4:42 PM

I have no interest in someones theologic beliefs, that is their own business and not mine. But when those who are religious think that their own beliefs should put them ahead of others and that the government should get into the business of supporting religion, do more to actually hurt America and to help leftists.

but you atheists have no problem with the government supporting YOUR religion…you think the government should be aggressively secular…with no room for any religion other than atheism.

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Hopefully they will all be raptured up and we’ll finally have some peace and quiet.

ronsfi on September 23, 2009 at 4:43 PM

The right4lifes of this world are exactly the reason I’d never vote for a Huckabee.

JEM on September 23, 2009 at 4:55 PM

Hopefully they will all be raptured up and we’ll finally have some peace and quiet.
ronsfi on September 23, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Oh, yeah, you’ll have lots of “peace and quiet” –

Revelation Chapter 6

Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.
3 When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword.
5 When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!”
7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave [5] and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

You may not believe this, ronsfl, but I pray to God you never have to face that day, and I pray that your eyes will be opened to see the truth in God’s Word, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God; your only means to peace with God.

Then, and only then, will you enjoy real “peace and quiet.”

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:08 PM

The right4lifes of this world are exactly the reason I’d never vote for a Huckabee.

JEM on September 23, 2009 at 4:55 PM

Why? Because he tells you the truth, and you don’t want to hear it?

Look, if a doctor found a lesion in my colon, and didn’t tell me because he knew I wouldn’t like it, I would sue that doctor for malpractice.

Hate those who soothe your fears as you enter the darkness of eternal separation from God and all that is good, not those who try to warn you to stay clear.

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:12 PM

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:12 PM
.
.
+1000

Ghostbuster on September 23, 2009 at 5:18 PM

Look, if a doctor found a lesion in my colon, and didn’t tell me because he knew I wouldn’t like it, I would sue that doctor for malpractice.

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:12 PM

If the doctor’s medical books were 2000+ years old, it might be worth a 2nd opinion–x-rays, CAT scans, blood tests are helpful in making an accurate diagnosis.

dedalus on September 23, 2009 at 5:20 PM

If the doctor’s medical books were 2000+ years old, it might be worth a 2nd opinion–x-rays, CAT scans, blood tests are helpful in making an accurate diagnosis.

dedalus on September 23, 2009 at 5:20 PM

Let’s see 66 books written by 44 different authors over a span of 4,500 years; they harmonize perfectly, they have no historical or scientific errors, and are reliable right down to their very words. Plus they give the means for renewing our relationship with our Creator, a relationship we once had, but decided to go our own way, i.e., we decided to play “god.”

Yep, I’ll take that “2000+” old book any day!

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:25 PM

Why? Because he tells you the truth, and you don’t want to hear it?

I am neutral on Huckabee, I’d like to hear him explain his religious platform more before I begin to consider him.

However and what I say next goes not for Huckabee but for the majority of the Christian Right.

Would you vote for Douglas Hooper of CAIR? Douglas Hooper said he’d like to see America become a Muslim nation and we all know what goes with Islam. Would you vote for Dawkins who calls Religion a failed hypothesis? Would you vote for any candidate who wanted to turn America into something you disagree with?

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 5:26 PM

really? guess marx had it wrong then…along with Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot…you get the picture.

Another logical fallacy. So if if I am not religious, that makes me disposed to communism? Sorry, just because Communism was officially atheism, does not mean a lack of religious belief makes one into a communist.

I am not atheist anyways, I have never said there is no god.

this is laughable…buckley was anti-abortion. and about as catholic as they come.

Anti-Abortion is not the same as social conservatism. He was more more libertarian in beliefs, even as far as drug legalization. You may read up on Buckley, he saw a big different between small government traditional conservatives, and Social Conservatives.

he was anti-abortion…at least he proclaimed himself one…against FORD??? oh please thats some choice there…laughable.

Ford was a hell of a lot better than Carter was. But that proves what I have been saying, that Social Conservative care a lot less about the ideas of small government and tradition Republican ideas, and more about who will institite the right social and religious ideas.

And yes it is laughable how a fair number of social conservatives claim to be the true Republicans, while you yourself admit they that preferred Jimmy Carter and other Democrats.

but you atheists have no problem with the government supporting YOUR religion…you think the government should be aggressively secular…with no room for any religion other than atheism.

right4life

And again, I AM NOT ATHEIST. I do not pretend to know everything, and I have never said there is not a God, I have not said there is a God.

And no, I do not want government instilling atheism or agnosticism. I just want religious freedom for all, no matter what ones religion is, and that includes the freedom to not be religious.

gee, I didn’t know murder and drug-dealing were part of christianity and catholocism..

thanks for uh ‘enlightening’ me…

Well, according to your kind of logic it would be. You assert since communists are atheists, so then atheists are communists. Hey, well if gang members are Catholics, then Catholics are gang members.

Of course thats not true, but you used a silly false analogy, then used the example of a single person (Buckley) that Catholic and old style Republicans were social conservatives, when Buckley was anything but a social conservative.

I want the Republican Party to be what its traditions hold – a belief in small government, a strong private sector, and a strong military. I want it to be there that anyone can participate in and promote those ideals, no matter what their religion is or lack of religious beliefs.

I DO NOT want the Republican Party to be a regional evangelical centered party that requires its members to be of a single religion in order to play a role, and that is a vehicle for just promoting a religious social beliefs of a particular religion. Unfortunately people that have been trying turn the GOP into a religion based organziation, are have been helping the Democrats more and more.

firepilot on September 23, 2009 at 5:29 PM

I am neutral on Huckabee, I’d like to hear him explain his religious platform more before I begin to consider him.

I wasn’t talking about Huckabee, I was talking about right2lifes excellent commentary.

However and what I say next goes not for Huckabee but for the majority of the Christian Right. Would you vote for Douglas Hooper of CAIR? Douglas Hooper said he’d like to see America become a Muslim nation and we all know what goes with Islam.

His name is not Douglas, it’s Ibrahim, anyway, he teaches and perpetrates a false religion. His religion is filled with hate and vile despicable attitudes. Now, whom does that remind you of? Satan! Give that man a cigar!

Would you vote for Dawkins who calls Religion a failed hypothesis? Would you vote for any candidate who wanted to turn America into something you disagree with?
Holger on September 23, 2009 at 5:26 P

I’m sorry, you don’t understand, I don’t “disagree” with men like Dawkins, and you, because you are fundamentally wrong! You want me to believe that what I see and hear and touch and feel and know is false. I’m sorry, I will stick to the truth – Jesus Christ is God the Only Means of salvation and a right relationship with the Living and True God.

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:33 PM

Let’s see 66 books written by 44 different authors over a span of 4,500 years; they harmonize perfectly, they have no historical or scientific errors, and are reliable right down to their very words. Plus they give the means for renewing our relationship with our Creator, a relationship we once had, but decided to go our own way, i.e., we decided to play “god.”

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:25 PM

Yes, there is a lot of wisdom in the books and they can provide a guide to a very fulfilling life.

I haven’t found the gospels to be harmonious though. From the final words of Christ, to the witnessing of the resurrection, to the ascension to heaven each of the four books differ in their accounts.

dedalus on September 23, 2009 at 5:34 PM

Grr I wish there was a way to go back and change mess ups in quotations.

really? guess marx had it wrong then…along with Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot…you get the picture.

Another logical fallacy. So if if I am not religious, that makes me disposed to communism? Sorry, just because Communism was officially atheism, does not mean a lack of religious belief makes one into a communist.

I am not atheist anyways, I have never said there is no god.

this is laughable…buckley was anti-abortion. and about as catholic as they come

Anti-Abortion is not the same as social conservatism. He was more more libertarian in beliefs, even as far as drug legalization. You may read up on Buckley, he saw a big different between small government traditional conservatives, and Social Conservatives.

but you atheists have no problem with the government supporting YOUR religion…you think the government should be aggressively secular…with no room for any religion other than atheism.

And again, I AM NOT ATHEIST. I do not pretend to know everything, and I have never said there is not a God, I have not said there is a God.

And no, I do not want government instilling atheism or agnosticism. I just want religious freedom for all, no matter what ones religion is, and that includes the freedom to not be religious

gee, I didn’t know murder and drug-dealing were part of christianity and catholocism..

thanks for uh ‘enlightening’ me…

Well, according to your kind of logic it would be. You assert since communists are atheists, so then atheists are communists. Hey, well if gang members are Catholics, then Catholics are gang members.

Of course thats not true, but you used a silly false analogy, then used the example of a single person (Buckley) that Catholic and old style Republicans were social conservatives, when Buckley was anything but a social conservative.

I want the Republican Party to be what its traditions hold – a belief in small government, a strong private sector, and a strong military. I want it to be there that anyone can participate in and promote those ideals, no matter what their religion is or lack of religious beliefs.

I DO NOT want the Republican Party to be a regional evangelical centered party that requires its members to be of a single religion in order to play a role, and that is a vehicle for just promoting a religious social beliefs of a particular religion. Unfortunately people that have been trying turn the GOP into a religion based organization, are have been helping the Democrats more and more.

firepilot on September 23, 2009 at 5:37 PM

firepilot on September 23, 2009 at 5:29 PM

RighttoLife equated Deism to Atheism. Jefferson was a Deist. Therefore Jefferson was an Atheist and thus a Godless Communist.

Ditto for Thomas Paine, Franklin, John and I think Samuel Adams, Abraham Lincoln and Taft were all Godless Communists.

And as the Declaration of Independence is a document written by a Godless Communist, then this nation was founded on Godless Communism.

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 5:38 PM

Social conservatives have failed miserably in their Bible-based govt approach, though. That’s because Americans don’t want the govt in their lives telling them what to do.

Sound familiar?

Moesart on September 23, 2009 at 3:22 PM

Just an idle thought, but I think that skips over a lot of Burke (especially “Hidden Law”), among other things. Perhaps it’s not so much a rejection of “being told what to do” as a rejection of having government doing the telling.

JohnTant on September 23, 2009 at 5:38 PM

Joe Pyne – it’s fine that you believe that.

Don’t even think about trying to convince me that I should vote for a candidate who’s going to attempt to codify that into law, though.

JEM on September 23, 2009 at 5:42 PM

And again, I AM NOT ATHEIST. I do not pretend to know everything, and I have never said there is not a God, I have not said there is a God.
firepilot on September 23, 2009 at 5:29 PM

That’s interesting, you have knowledge that there is something, but you know that “something” is definitely not the God of the Bible. On the other hand, you acknowledge your agnosticism about God, except you are definitely not agnostic on your belief that no one can know God!

That’s what the Bible means when it says that “God gave them over to a reprobate mind.”

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:43 PM

I haven’t found the gospels to be harmonious though. From the final words of Christ, to the witnessing of the resurrection, to the ascension to heaven each of the four books differ in their accounts.

dedalus on September 23, 2009 at 5:34 PM

No they don’t.

i have had three years of textual criticism, four years of Greek and Hebrew, and have a library shelf filled with volume upon volume of books that deal with the historical, critical, and harmonious unity of the gospels.

Don’t make a statement of “fact” before you have done your homework. You very soul depends on it.

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:46 PM

The right4lifes of this world are exactly the reason I’d never vote for a Huckabee.

JEM on September 23, 2009 at 4:55 PM

don’t worry, I’ll never vote for you ‘moderate’ libertarians…that are all for the rights of some…but not unborn babies or christians…(ie pro-gay marriage)

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 5:47 PM

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:46 PM

Brother Joe, thank you for fighting the good fight today. As you are aware, there are numerous believers that post on this site. They simply grow weary of butting their heads against the wall and move on to other threads. But, rest assured, your’s is not a lone voice in the wilderness. God Bless.

kingsjester on September 23, 2009 at 5:51 PM

Another logical fallacy. So if if I am not religious, that makes me disposed to communism? Sorry, just because Communism was officially atheism, does not mean a lack of religious belief makes one into a communist.

oh please talk about logical fallacy…no one gives a damn what you are…the point is, which you cannot deal with, is that atheists are much more likely to be socialists…the name marx ring a bell??? duhhhhhhhhhh

Anti-Abortion is not the same as social conservatism. He was more more libertarian in beliefs, even as far as drug legalization. You may read up on Buckley, he saw a big different between small government traditional conservatives, and Social Conservatives.

more lies and BS…sonny boy I was reading buckley in the 1970s…till he died…how about you??? oh and newflash moron, I’m for drug legalization too…..he was as socially conservative as they come….you don’t know your history, things like prohibition are PROGRESSIVE…ie socialist ideas…duhhhhh

And again, I AM NOT ATHEIST. I do not pretend to know everything, and I have never said there is not a God, I have not said there is a God.

oh please, who cares? you agnostics/atheists want the same thing….christians OUT OF public life…and you want to impose your atheist agenda upon the rest of us…rabid secularization of every aspect of our culture…truth is you don’t want us christians to have any role in government.

Well, according to your kind of logic it would be. You assert since communists are atheists, so then atheists are communists. Hey, well if gang members are Catholics, then Catholics are gang members.

so marx, stalin, lenin, et al….were christian huh?? do you think they were atheist?? pathetically stupid.
do you know any christain communists?? hmmmm???? name them.

Of course thats not true, but you used a silly false analogy, then used the example of a single person (Buckley) that Catholic and old style Republicans were social conservatives, when Buckley was anything but a social conservative.

you are seriously stupid. get a clue. buckley was a social conservative…have you EVER read the national review…or any of his columns????? sheesh….

I DO NOT want the Republican Party to be a regional evangelical centered party that requires its members to be of a single religion in order to play a role, and that is a vehicle for just promoting a religious social beliefs of a particular religion. Unfortunately people that have been trying turn the GOP into a religion based organization, are have been helping the Democrats more and more.

this is so much BS…you sound like a typical liberal ‘moderate’ wacko.

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 5:54 PM

My right to drink Samuel Adams does not infringe upon your rights to drink Budweiser.

There is no right to deny the rights of others.

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 5:56 PM

RighttoLife equated Deism to Atheism. Jefferson was a Deist. Therefore Jefferson was an Atheist and thus a Godless Communist.

Ditto for Thomas Paine, Franklin, John and I think Samuel Adams, Abraham Lincoln and Taft were all Godless Communists.

And as the Declaration of Independence is a document written by a Godless Communist, then this nation was founded on Godless Communism.

you are just an idiot…tell me would a deist say any of these things???

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin’s 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach “the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.”

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as “a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone.”

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” –October 11, 1798

“I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen.” December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

“Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell.” [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 5:59 PM

My right to drink Samuel Adams does not infringe upon your rights to drink Budweiser.

There is no right to deny the rights of others.

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 5:56 PM

are you pro-abortion?? how about pro gay marriage???

bet you are…if so you have no problem denying the rights of others…

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 6:00 PM

kingsjester on September 23, 2009 at 5:51 PM

Appreciate the kind words and encouragement, my brother.

Yes, I know there are multiple Christians on this board who do the good work of evangelism and defending the faith. I just try to add my input and pray that the Holy Spirit will do the rest.

For you out there who don’t believe, we can convince NO ONE and we can save NO ONE. All we are are servants of the Living God with a message of GOOD NEWS to proclaim to a hurt and dying world. No one will convince you of anything you don’t want to believe. The convincing is up to the Spirit of God. It’s nothing we say, it’s what He says to your heart that will ignite a spark of faith.

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 6:01 PM

My right to drink Samuel Adams does not infringe upon your rights to drink Budweiser. There is no right to deny the rights of others.

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 5:56 PM

I think we would all agree with that, so what’s the problem?

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 6:03 PM

However and what I say next goes not for Huckabee but for the majority of the Christian Right.

Would you vote for Douglas Hooper of CAIR? Douglas Hooper said he’d like to see America become a Muslim nation and we all know what goes with Islam. Would you vote for Dawkins who calls Religion a failed hypothesis? Would you vote for any candidate who wanted to turn America into something you disagree with?

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 5:26 PM

this is such a lie…christians don’t want to turn america into a christian nation…we want it to be a free country where we are free to practice our faith.

you libs are such liars.

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 6:04 PM

I think we would all agree with that, so what’s the problem?

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 6:03 PM

because to people like him, christians are denying the poor gays the ‘right’ to marry…they don’t consider, nor care about, what would happen to the rights of christians, and other religions under gay marriage…ie gay sharia law…

to people like holger, some pigs are more equal than others…

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 6:06 PM

Hopefully they will all be raptured up and we’ll finally have some peace and quiet.

ronsfi on September 23, 2009 at 4:43 PM

If the Rapture actually does happen, there won’t be any peace and quiet for very long.

44Magnum on September 23, 2009 at 6:18 PM

because to people like him, christians are denying the poor gays the ‘right’ to marry…they don’t consider, nor care about, what would happen to the rights of christians, and other religions under gay marriage…ie gay sharia law…

to people like holger, some pigs are more equal than others…

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 6:06 PM

Thanks, for if that is what he meant, then I do have a problem.

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 6:23 PM

“Aw yeah” and the “Exit question: Imagine an America 100 years from now that’s majority non-religious. Imagine it.”

Are you trying, trying hard or not trying at all to be this inflammatory and incendiary? Because that’s what you’re coming across as. Again…

Don’t get me wrong, I respect you and everything. That’s just a little too slap-in-the-faceish to me.

roopster217 on September 23, 2009 at 6:23 PM

Why is it that some atheists push their non- belief as enthusiastically as any missionary?
RedRedRice on September 22, 2009 at 9:16 PM

Fixed.

For the record. I am an atheist who is a Conservative Libertarian. I find the constant blather about them being mutually exclusive as annoying as that darned dog next door who won’t stop barking.

Allah, please stop with these idiotic atheist posts. They distract and annoy intelligent people and have no bearing. Might as well say carbon causes global warming to say Atheism causes (insert problem here)

BierManVA on September 23, 2009 at 6:24 PM

BierManVA on September 23, 2009 at 6:24 PM

Thank you! You just proved that athism can become a relegion, i.e. allah’s case, or a mere absence of belief in God, i.e. your case. Although you and I will likely always disagree on the concepts, at least I think we cold work together on other issues without making this one the thing that keeps us from succeeding. Somehow I don’t think allah gets that difference.

MikeA on September 23, 2009 at 6:34 PM

Hell some atheists had special services to rescind their baptisms

CWforFreedom on September 23, 2009 at 6:36 PM

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 5:59 PM

Jefferson’s disbelief in Christ’s Divinity is well known, his Deism is also well known. He wrote a bible with all supernatural elements removed amd lambasted Christianity on many occasion. One can have a positive opinion of Christ indeed hold him as an Ideal and yet not be a Christian unless you claim Ghandi was a Christian convert.

The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.

I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his 5 points is not the God whom you and I acknowledge and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no god at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin. Indeed I think that every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of a god.

The Pennsylvania legislature, who, on a proposition to make the belief in God a necessary qualification for office, rejected it by a great majority, although assuredly there was not a single atheist in their body. And you remember to have heard, that when the act for religious freedom was before the Virginia Assembly, a motion to insert the name of Jesus Christ before the phrase, “the author of our holy religion,” which stood in the bill, was rejected, although that was the creed of a great majority of them.

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.

I admit to being wrong on the Adams but I do believe there is on other Founding Father who was.

And for Franklin:

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho’ it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble…

He doubted the Divinity of Christ, he doubts the entire basis of Christianity. He also entertains the possibility of a better Religion, I thought Christ delivered perfection, entertaining the concept of a better religion implies that Christ was perfect. Moreover, he implies he is ignorant of Christianity.

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 6:39 PM

i have had three years of textual criticism, four years of Greek and Hebrew, and have a library shelf filled with volume upon volume of books that deal with the historical, critical, and harmonious unity of the gospels.

Don’t make a statement of “fact” before you have done your homework. You very soul depends on it.

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 5:46 PM

I recall your education from previous threads. I’m sure you are very well read on the matter. Doesn’t the differing number of women and angels at the tomb and differing accounts of which city Christ appeared to the eleven in mean that the harmony of the Gospels isn’t apparent to many readers.

dedalus on September 23, 2009 at 6:50 PM

I don’t agree that being the physical creator automatically the moral center. The second would be a separate assertion. You could proved that creation was created, but this would not prove that the creator was good.

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 2:55 PM

Back for a bit. Forgive me, because I’m bound to explain this poorly, but here goes.

It isn’t just that He’s the creator, though creating something from nothing would argue rather strongly for making your own rules.

The problem with your contention is that the Christian conception of God is infinite: omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Such a being could lack no possible good attribute and yet retain its infinite nature. To do so – to evidence a lack of some kind – would preclude any claims of infinite nature.

Many atheists set up a straw man god – a senile, mean-spirited, old man in the sky complete with robe and white beard. He sometimes smites those who displease Him, but will lavishly reward any who grovel at his feet and say a few specific phrases. Atheists would be right to mock such a God … it’s just that that’s not Him. The pan-dimensional reality defining entity Christians reference is something – someone wholly beyond such a childish conception. Unless we really get that straight we’ll be forever talking past each other.

TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 6:55 PM

if so you have no problem denying the rights of others…

My comment was not about Abortion. I am pro-life. Of course you’ll think it a lie because I’m not a Christian.

No Religion has a right to deny civil, legal and human rights to others.

It is absurd to say that giving homosexuals the same legal and civil rights as heterosexuals somehow violates the 1st Amendment. Unless you make the claim that Christians have special rights which violates the Constitution and Law, if you do the Founding Fathers are rolling over.

Now if the State demandsReligions to carry out the marriage ceremonies, then you have a point, it violates the 1st Amendment.

It isn’t that I disagree same-sex marriage is stupid, but your reasoning is nothing less than justification for Theocracy.

Again, my right to hate Nasty Light does not interfere with your right to drink Nasty Light.

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 7:15 PM

It isn’t that I disagree same-sex marriage is stupid, but your reasoning is nothing less than justification for Theocracy.

Correction

It isn’t that I disagree same-sex marriage is stupid, but your reasoning is nothing less than arguing for Theocracy.

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 7:21 PM

Doesn’t the differing number of women and angels at the tomb and differing accounts of which city Christ appeared to the eleven in mean that the harmony of the Gospels isn’t apparent to many readers.

dedalus on September 23, 2009 at 6:50 PM

Glenn Miller has answered these objections succinctly in his own unique way:

For some reason, these arguments don’t ever seem to be satisfied. If we have N witnesses to an event, they want “N+1″…And if EVERY SINGLE WRITER talks about the event in EXACT detail, they are accused of “collusion” and “conspiracy”. And if EVERY SINGLE WRITER talks about the event, but uses different vocab, style, levels of precison, of selection of details, THEN the antagonists complain about ‘contradictions’ and ‘disagreements’! What’s a mother to do?!!!! (I am always amused at these ‘argument from silence’ literary positions and the ability to spoof it… (“Since Jesus never spoke his own name in the Gospels, he must not have known it!”).

Regarding the differences in the accounts, Greenleaf wrote in § 34, “The character of their narratives is like that of all other true witnesses, containing — as Dr. [William] Paley observes — substantial truth, under circumstantial variety. [From A View of the Evidences of Christianity, 1794. See Appendix 2.] There is enough of discrepancy to show that there could have been no previous concert among them; and at the same time such substantial agreement as to show that they all were independent narrators of the same great transaction, as the events actually occurred.”

Hope that helps, there is much much more, but if you are serious, this is a start.

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 7:21 PM

No Religion has a right to deny civil, legal and human rights to others.

It is absurd to say that giving homosexuals the same legal and civil rights as heterosexuals somehow violates the 1st Amendment. Unless you make the claim that Christians have special rights which violates the Constitution and Law, if you do the Founding Fathers are rolling over.

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 7:15 PM

The problem you have is that “gay” marriage is not marriage. Furthermore, to make is such, is to deny 10,000 years of historical, moral, and cultural precedence. Lastly, someone’s “religion” i.e., world-view is going to be transformed into law, either the Judeo-Christian view, which goes back to the founders, or the secular-humanist view that is the philosophy that undergirds the humanist governments of Europe and Asia.

I’ll stick with the Judeo-Christian world-view of the founders that forms the basis for our laws and freedoms, thank you.

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 7:29 PM

He doubted the Divinity of Christ, he doubts the entire basis of Christianity. He also entertains the possibility of a better Religion, I thought Christ delivered perfection, entertaining the concept of a better religion implies that Christ was perfect. Moreover, he implies he is ignorant of Christianity.

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 6:39 PM

oh yeah old atheist/deist Jefferson who insituted church in the capital and never missed it…and paid for missionairies to the native americans from the public treasury…

your quote of franklin does nothing for your case…he was trouble by corruption in the church of england…as we still are to this day…see the episcopals…

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 8:08 PM

It is absurd to say that giving homosexuals the same legal and civil rights as heterosexuals somehow violates the 1st Amendment. Unless you make the claim that Christians have special rights which violates the Constitution and Law, if you do the Founding Fathers are rolling over

I’m surprised you are pro-life…gay marriage sure will deny religious liberty for christians….but you are not trouble by that, obviously.

and everyone knows it….

Same-Sex Marriage and the Threat to Religious Liberty

It isn’t that I disagree same-sex marriage is stupid, but your reasoning is nothing less than justification for Theocracy.

yeah your justification is for a gay-sharia where only pro-gay sentiment, thought, speech, and action is tolerated…

how ‘libertarian’ of you…

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 8:11 PM

the point about the founders, it doesn’t matter if an individual was christian or not…whats important is they created a judeo-christian form of government…probably the purest form of it ever seen in the history of the world.

compare and contrast that with the atheist/deist form of government in France…THE TERROR.

I’ve posted this several times, but of course the atheist/deists do their best to ignore it…no surprise.

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 8:14 PM

and you can bet that the founders were much more pious, and holy, in their actions than the best christians today…we can’t judge their hearts…

but of course the indispensible man, Washington said:

WHEREAS it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me “to recommend to the people of the United States a DAY OF PUBLICK THANKSGIVING and PRAYER, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:”

NOW THEREFORE, I do recommend and assign THURSDAY, the TWENTY-SIXTH DAY of NOVEMBER next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed;– for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish Constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted;– for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge;– and, in general, for all the great and various favours which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also, that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions;– to enable us all, whether in publick or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us); and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

GIVEN under my hand, at the city of New-York, the third day of October, in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine.

(signed) G. Washington

without Washington, we wouldn’t be a country…that can be said of NO ONE else…

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 8:21 PM

Allah:
I have never paid much attention to your atheism becuase it’s irrelevant to much of the conversation although the religists here tend to make much more of a deal than it should be.
For me, I don’t care. I mean I am trying to concentrate on being the best human being I can be, and I know for most people they have a need to connect in a group way with a recognized beleif in God. I just found that it did not generate that same kind of connection with me, and so I drifted away from a more traiditonal Catholic upbringing.
I respect other people’s right to have the beleifs they do, and I realize most of them do not respect my right to have the beleif I do, even though they will tell me to my face that they do. So I have learned to keep that quite for the most part except for forums like this one, where anonymity allows me to be more frank about my lack of concern in belief.

paulsur on September 23, 2009 at 9:26 PM

When my brother passed the bar I asked him to join me in fighting discrimination. The State of California arbitrarily and maliciously requires three separate adults to form a limited liability corporation, a clear violation of my 9th Amendment liberty to incorporate with another man. “Why can’t my partner and I form a more perfect union?” I begged.

He laughed, but I think he got the point too.

Chris_Balsz on September 23, 2009 at 9:33 PM

My right to drink Samuel Adams does not infringe upon your rights to drink Budweiser. There is no right to deny the rights of others.

Holger on September 23, 2009 at 5:56 PM

What, did you think that through…the simple and overused example…you don’t have the right to yell “FIRE” in a crowded theater. Yet you have the right to free speech.
Rights are restrained all the time, they are denied often.
As a felon you do not have the right to bear arms, the right to vote, etc.
As a child molester you do not have the right to live where ever you want…your freedoms are severely restrained or taken away.

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 9:53 PM

Hope that helps, there is much much more, but if you are serious, this is a start.

Joe Pyne on September 23, 2009 at 7:21 PM

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

dedalus on September 23, 2009 at 9:56 PM

Rights are restrained all the time, they are denied often.
As a felon you do not have the right to bear arms, the right to vote, etc.
As a child molester you do not have the right to live where ever you want…your freedoms are severely restrained or taken away.

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 9:53 PM

Rights can’t be denied in a way that discriminates against a protected class of people. There is much that I don’t like about anti-discrimination law, but it does create a hurdle for the state when someone from a protected class is denied a government service. Race, religion, and disability are protected nationally. Gay people have protected class status in about half the states, IIRC.

dedalus on September 23, 2009 at 10:01 PM

the point about the founders, it doesn’t matter if an individual was christian or not…whats important is they created a judeo-christian form of government…probably the purest form of it ever seen in the history of the world.

right4life on September 23, 2009 at 8:14 PM

More purely Judaic than what the Israelites allegedly had under David and Solomon? More purely Christian than rule by the Vatican? Looks like you’ve never heard of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Nowhere in the Bible, “Old” Testament or New (as if God would change his mind and need a “New” Testament!), does it say God endowed man with the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What’s more, if you were to actually read your Bible, you’d notice that its god directs his followers to deprive of their lives and liberties anyone who pursues happiness.

hicsuget on September 24, 2009 at 12:58 AM

Religions are for people who didn’t grow out of arguing over whose imaginary friend was more powerful.

History is replete with examples of ALL religions being directly responsible for mass murders, slavery, rapes and crimes against a populace.

Religion retards thinking. They force fill the individual with pre-conceived criterias, baseless yet baised notions of subjects and topics before the individual can make their own judgement

Think for yourself, it’s one of the greatest treasures a sentient being can embrace.

Chook on September 24, 2009 at 2:10 AM

More purely Judaic than what the Israelites allegedly had under David and Solomon? More purely Christian than rule by the Vatican? Looks like you’ve never heard of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Nowhere in the Bible, “Old” Testament or New (as if God would change his mind and need a “New” Testament!), does it say God endowed man with the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What’s more, if you were to actually read your Bible, you’d notice that its god directs his followers to deprive of their lives and liberties anyone who pursues happiness.

hicsuget on September 24, 2009 at 12:58 AM

why don’t you explain the bible to me, since you obviously know everything about it!

you know if God didn’t want man to live, He wouldn’t have created us and given us life in the first place…duhhhhh…as far as liberty…you will not find a freer form of government than the judges in the OT…get a clue…

as far as God ‘changing His mind’ thats typical ignorant atheist talking points….

right4life on September 24, 2009 at 7:36 AM

Think for yourself, it’s one of the greatest treasures a sentient being can embrace.

Chook on September 24, 2009 at 2:10 AM

oh yes unless everyone thinks exactly as you do they’re ignorant, uninformed, can’t think for themselves…yadayada…

more ignorant atheist talking points…talk about not thinking for yourselves…you sound like a parrot.

right4life on September 24, 2009 at 9:08 AM

My reason for being non-religious is that God won’t answer my prayers to get rid of Obama!

Cybergeezer on September 24, 2009 at 9:30 AM

The problem isn’t so much their Bible-thumping as it is that they let the socialists use it to talk them into things.

Count to 10 on September 23, 2009 at 3:32 PM

I believe you will find more secular thinking, more atheists in the liberals movement…the faithful have never relied on the government.
Good try though, you really are desperate to try to tie Christians to socialists.
Government is the bane of religion…it is the communists and marxists that want to remove religion from life, want to replace God with the government.

right2bright on September 23, 2009 at 3:44 PM

Not so. The “faithful” indeed rely upon the government, whether as individuals relying upon SSec./Medicaid, or the institutions willing to transpose their moral duties to the poor for the state to provide while enjoying their tax status, going so far as to promote ObamaCare as Catholic Bishops are doing, completing the circle of “liturgy” defined originally as tax obligations to the state.

Religion expresses itself as a government in church, many being theocracies in their own realms of existence here on earth, the place where Jesus said his kingdom was not. And you would play the role of political leader within your church.

Nothing wrong choosing to work within a Godly club or social order so long as you’re completely honest and up front about promoting your own special interests that may or may not be the same as God’s, but are as good as you can tell. Human nature being as it is, honesty is always compromised.

maverick muse on September 24, 2009 at 9:50 AM

Cybergeezer on September 24, 2009 at 9:30 AM

Hard pressed.

maverick muse on September 24, 2009 at 9:52 AM

Religion retards thinking. They force fill the individual with pre-conceived criterias, baseless yet baised notions of subjects and topics before the individual can make their own judgement

Think for yourself, it’s one of the greatest treasures a sentient being can embrace.

Chook on September 24, 2009 at 2:10 AM

You’ve done your Reader’s Digest research with lack luster vigilance, too sloppy to bother spelling the words you choose for expression.

DO think, and find more to think about than what you don’t like. What people do with ideas reflects on those people as much as on the ideas. The interplay is powerful. And what we individually contribute or destroy is noted. Perhaps all you know of the spirit is war, having that in your own heart. Hence you only see war from spirit, not life, not peace, not mercy, not justice. Schade, to dismiss the idea that determines form because you have no room in your own heart for faith in love, the very thing you would project as your virtuous reason to destroy spirit.

Yes. “Think for yourself, it’s one of the greatest treasures a sentient being can embrace.”

Where you go with the wheel is your own choice. Just don’t deny the wheel was invented and exists as if your sentient choice will “re-invent” it, abuse it, ignore it, destroy it, replace it. Thoughts exist. Learn and study what they are. And make of them as you will as do others.

maverick muse on September 24, 2009 at 10:14 AM

My reason for being non-religious is that God won’t answer my prayers to get rid of Obama!

Who prays more fervently on this point? Islam. There is but one Almighty God. And Americans lack faith in our government, President and Congress AND corrupted Dept. of Justice and Judicial Branch. Of all times, this is when we should match Islam’s exercise of faith, in order to heal what ails us.

maverick muse on September 24, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Darwin, the scientist, was totally ignorant of RNA. His observations focused on physiology and his explanations were metaphysical. Darwin did indeed propound a system of Godless improvement in nature, driving the change in the animal kingdom.

A modern biologist defines evolution as “changes in genetic frequency”. If there are more redheads in this generation, humanity has evolved. That may be due to some favorable condition in redheads. It may be due to random chance–more redheads getting together and having kids. It may be due to a cull of brunettes. It might be due to Providence, which isn’t subject to testing- but a thorough biologist tends to focus on measuring and explaining systems rather than extrapolating a moral lesson from their work.

Chris_Balsz on September 24, 2009 at 10:34 AM

TheUnrepentantGeek on September 23, 2009 at 6:55 PM

Your assumption of an infinite, omniscient, and omnipotent God implies one of the Muslim tenets: namely, everyone is really just a hand puppet of God, as he acts out history to himself. Your assertion that an infinite God must contain all good can’t be separated from using the same reasoning to assert that he is also all evil.

Count to 10 on September 24, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Think for yourself, it’s one of the greatest treasures a sentient being can embrace.

Chook on September 24, 2009 at 2:10 AM

Thank you, Karl Marx.

But, uh, aren’t you a little lost? The Huffington Post is way over there, you know, way over on the LEFT.

Joe Pyne on September 24, 2009 at 11:39 AM

Who prays more fervently on this point? Islam. There is but one Almighty God. And Americans lack faith in our government, President and Congress AND corrupted Dept. of Justice and Judicial Branch. Of all times, this is when we should match Islam’s exercise of faith, in order to heal what ails us.

maverick muse on September 24, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Bless you, brother; Whatever works.

Cybergeezer on September 24, 2009 at 11:44 AM

Everyone becomes religious in life at some point. Especially when you are on the brink of death.
Somehow that is an enlightening moment in the lives of many atheists.

A modern biologist defines evolution as “changes in genetic frequency”.

And when you study the evidence, it’s an accurate definition, IMHScientificO.

It might be due to Providence, which isn’t subject to testing- but a thorough biologist tends to focus on measuring and explaining systems rather than extrapolating a moral lesson from their work.

Chris_Balsz on September 24, 2009 at 10:34 AM

+10
Scientists should not be trying to extrapolate moral lessons from any scientific work. That is not their job.
The only time they need to consider morality is when they have a question about WHAT to do with the knowledge gained.
This is why ethicists are important.
There is faith & there is science.
One is proven or disproven, the other is a feeling, unable to be proven or disproven.
My faith in God actually stems from my observations in the scientific world.
I am amazed at what God created & it’s fun to study it.

Badger40 on September 24, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Badger40 on September 24, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Don’t know why it was all stuck.
Wierd.

Badger40 on September 24, 2009 at 1:55 PM

Who prays more fervently on this point? Islam. There is but one Almighty God. And Americans lack faith in our government, President and Congress AND corrupted Dept. of Justice and Judicial Branch. Of all times, this is when we should match Islam’s exercise of faith, in order to heal what ails us.

maverick muse on September 24, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Like a cosmic applause meter for battle of the faiths?

jhffmn on September 24, 2009 at 2:09 PM

Okay, people, say it with me, now: Judeo-Christian values good, survival-of-the-fittest bad. Cause guess what, not all of us gonna be the fittest. duh. Anyone here heard of Pascal’s Wager? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

cynccook on September 24, 2009 at 11:27 PM

It’s a kind of religious indifference that’s not hostile to religion the way they are in France

versus:

Navarro-Rivera is still running the numbers, but his hunch is that the new generation of religious nones has been scared away from the Republican Party because of its ties to the Christian right

the Nones I see are hostile anti Christian, but not seriously anti muslim, which matches the DEM pattern. Christianity hits a nerve and they need to believe islam is not a threat or they would have to act. Acting out against Christianity is a lot safer

No surprise either to find that “nones” are already at or above 20 percent on the west coast and in the northeast, where the GOP’s collapsed over the past 10 years:

I thought the Hispanic (voting offspring of illegals) was the swing in Cal, not the decadent anti Christians.

Imagine an America 100 years from now that’s majority non-religious. Imagine it.

Certainly possible but religious have birthrate demographics that beat out non religious. It has become politically correct to declare None and politically suspect to declare ‘Christian’. The press, the schools, and the activist judges have all declare christianity to be a form of public indecency.

entagor on September 25, 2009 at 11:38 AM

Okay, people, say it with me, now: Judeo-Christian values good, survival-of-the-fittest bad. Cause guess what, not all of us gonna be the fittest. duh. Anyone here heard of Pascal’s Wager? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

cynccook on September 24, 2009 at 11:27 PM

Atheism does not equate to survival of the fittest, to say nothing of Deism. And Pascal’s Wager is invalid because you presume God cannot detect an insincere belief, and because you presume the only choices are atheism and Christianity when the choices include many, many other religions.

Math_Mage on September 26, 2009 at 9:37 PM

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