Cap-and-trade will take 3.5% off of GDP by 2050

posted at 11:36 am on September 18, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

If the Senate ever does finish with a health-care overhaul bill, the next item on their agenda looks like an even bigger loser.  The Congressional Budget Office, whose analyses exposed ObamaCare as a deficit-busting boondoggle, has now reviewed the cap-and-trade bill passed by the House over two months ago.  The analysis confirms that cap-and-trade will seriously hamper the American economy and create joblessness by the millions over the next 40 years:

The climate change bill approved by the U.S. House of Representatives would reduce the gross domestic product of the United States by as much as 3.5 percent in 2050, the Congressional Budget Office estimates.

The Democratic-controlled House passed landmark legislation in June aimed at slashing industrial pollution that is blamed for global warming.

“Reducing the risk of climate change would come at some cost to the economy,” the CBO said in a reported posted on its website on Thursday.

The report concludes that if cap and trade provisions of the bill are implemented, the measure would reduce the gross domestic product by between 1 percent and 3.5 percent below what it otherwise would have been in 2050.

Read the full report here.  What would the cap-and-trade bill mean for Americans?  Unnecessary misery and stagnation:

The increases in the price of energy caused by the program would reduce workers’ real wages. Total employment would be lower in the long run to the extent that some workers chose to work fewer hours or not at all—but for nearly all workers, the choice in the long run would probably be to remain in the workforce and accept the prevailing wage. …

On the other hand, CBO’s estimate of the loss of purchasing power does not capture all of the ways in which the cap-and-trade program could impose costs on households. There would be transition costs of lost earnings by workers who would become temporarily unemployed or underemployed during the adjustment to higher prices for energy from fossil fuels. There would also be indirect effects on household consumption relative to what would happen in the absence of the cap-and-trade program. The premature obsolescence of existing long-lived capital, such as coal-fired power plants that would no longer generate as much electricity, would reduce household wealth a little (through shareholders’ losses) and in turn reduce consumption. Both lower household wealth and higher costs of producing energy-intensive capital goods would reduce domestic saving and investment, leading to slightly lower economic growth and household consumption. Finally, some interactions of the cap-and-trade program with existing taxes could tend to add to economic costs. For example, the increase in prices for fossil fuel energy and energy-intensive goods and services would tend to aggravate distortions in the labor market caused by existing taxes on earnings.

The loss in purchasing power would rise over time as the cap became more stringent and larger amounts of resources were dedicated to cutting emissions—for example, by generating electricity from natural gas rather than coal or by improving energy efficiency. As a share of GDP, the aggregate loss of purchasing power would be 0.1 percent in 2012 and 0.8 percent in 2050, CBO estimates, and would average 0.4 percent over the entire 2012–2050 period. Measured at the projected 2010 level of income, the average per-household loss in purchasing power would be $90 in 2012 and $925 in 2050 and would average about $455 per U.S. household per year over the 2012–2050 period.

Meanwhile, businesses would have sharp increases in compliance costs, but they won’t be the ultimate payer of those costs.  The CBO estimates that households would bear the costs of 87% of the compliance costs through higher prices:

CBO estimated price increases for categories of goods and services using a model of the U.S. economy that relates final prices of goods to the costs of production inputs. Households and governments would bear those costs through their consumption of goods and services. Households account for the bulk of total spending, and they would bear an estimated 87 percent of the compliance costs.

Those compliance costs won’t be evenly distributed across all income levels, either.  The CBO shows in this chart that compliance costs will eat up purchasing power most at the lowest income levels by 2020, but that “allocations” (ie, welfare and subsidies) within the bill makes them the winner.  The big loser?  The middle class:

And by 2050, that effect only gets more pronounced:

In other words, we’re about to impose a policy that curtails growth, creates serious employment problems, and hammers the middle class on wages and spending power.  For what?  To appease the environmental lobby over a hypothesis that the last ten years has all but disproven.

Do Americans want to pay this kind of price to surrender to climate-change hysteria?

Blowback

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*punches Al Gore very, very hard and makes a hilarious, cartoon squish sound* Huh! His head was filled with sponge cake! Explains much.

Orange Doorhinge on September 18, 2009 at 11:39 AM

To think that Algore was this close to stealing that election. Bastard.

SouthernGent on September 18, 2009 at 11:40 AM

Which is why crap-and-betrayed is dead. The Senate won’t dare touch this now.

Doughboy on September 18, 2009 at 11:40 AM

dont you idiots understand. Barry & Co know whats best for us all!! deal with it!

moonbatkiller on September 18, 2009 at 11:41 AM

At least we now know AlGore’s cut.

Oh, and is that cut “profit” or “overhead”?

roux on September 18, 2009 at 11:41 AM

Do Americans want to pay this kind of price to surrender to climate-change hysteria?

No. Hell no.

redwhiteblue on September 18, 2009 at 11:42 AM

those charts, yuck, they must have only had blue ink left in the printer.

But really, how can anyone follow these fools still?

kirkill on September 18, 2009 at 11:42 AM

Yes but by shifting our carbons to China and India we will

save the world from certain destruction

boost their economies further, depress ours, AND get to feel good about ourselves!

It makes perfect sense.

Anders on September 18, 2009 at 11:42 AM

That’s only cuz you right-wingers got the green jobs czar fired.

Chuckles3 on September 18, 2009 at 11:42 AM

I wrote to my Congressman Mike Castle (one of the GOP cap and traitors) and ripped him a new one for voting for this.

His reply in a letter: In Delaware, we need to be concerned about global warming because we will be one of the first states to go underwater if we do not address “climate change.”

Needless to say, he won’t be getting my vote going forward.

Joe Caps on September 18, 2009 at 11:43 AM

Cap & Trade will have the same results as the Delta Smelt….

PatriotRider on September 18, 2009 at 11:43 AM

To think that Algore was this close to stealing that election. Bastard.

SouthernGent on September 18, 2009 at 11:40 AM

Even though it has been 9 years, it still freaks me out that he was ever so close to pulling off that chad counting scheme.

myrenovations on September 18, 2009 at 11:43 AM

Can we start calling this bill, “Screw the kid’s future” bill? Just pile on. Taxes will have to be high to pay interest on the debt and less prosperity do to higher energy costs.

Does not the CBO know that oil will not be needed in 2050? We will have new super cheap energy sourcves that run on unicorn farts.

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 11:44 AM

That’s a conservative estimate IMHO. The United States has always had the selling point of relatively cheap power and good infrastructure. Crap’n'trade will further spike that notion as the sierra scrubs have already done the last twenty years.

Thanks for leaving us with bare change Barry.

sven10077 on September 18, 2009 at 11:44 AM

If you assume the intent is malicious, it makes sense. Otherwise, it doesn’t.

lorien1973 on September 18, 2009 at 11:45 AM

Cap-and-trade will take 3.5% off of GDP by 2050

Obama: Well it’s a start.

Ted Torgerson on September 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM

So in the last 70 days we have had about 2 sunspots and that was on the same day for one day. Sun is quiet for two years. Last two years are colder, especially in the midwest. Ed’s internet lines are going to freeze up big time in MN this winter.

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM

Families don’t have 300 dollars more a month to allocate to energy. That even excludes the indirect burden by reason of increased food and consumer products price increases.

seven on September 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM

No-growth eco-Marxists.

Joe Caps on September 18, 2009 at 11:47 AM

It’s almost like Obama and his crew get up every day and ask themselves…

… “How can we fu%k up the United States even more today?”

Seven Percent Solution on September 18, 2009 at 11:48 AM

We can always smuggle beans and corn meal from Mexico to save on food costs.

seven on September 18, 2009 at 11:48 AM

This is mind numbing. Absolutely everything this clown is doing will destroy the United States as we now know it. Of course that’s his goal … the radical transformation of America, but exactly what makes this stooge think people would just sit back and take it?

I don’t think it’s too soon to start whispering “Impeach”. Obama’s actions are nothing less than an aggressive assault on America and her people. He has declared war on the people of the United States.

This simply cannot continue for much longer. Soon, he heads to the UN to give away our sovereignty. This traitor must be neutered or ejected from power. I hope some sense is seeping into democrat Senators and Representatives. We need them to side with Republicans as Americans to rein in this dictator wannabe before his actions damage the US any further.

darwin on September 18, 2009 at 11:48 AM

Incentivising through tax hikes: Evil

Incentivising through subsidies: ?

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 11:49 AM

These people won’t be happy until the entire population (themselves excluded) is living in mud huts.

Like Obama’s brother.

Cicero43 on September 18, 2009 at 11:50 AM

What would the cap-and-trade bill mean for Americans? Unnecessary misery and stagnation:

Just what Dr. Obama and the statists ordered.

farright on September 18, 2009 at 11:50 AM

Glenn Beck did a great piece on this yesterday with documents to back it up from the Treasury Department. Documents that Barry’s had since March 9th, 2009. Numbers that Barry new, but never told us about.

According to Beck, the extra tax would be about $1,700+ per family per year.

Knucklehead on September 18, 2009 at 11:50 AM

as a former lefty raised by foremr card-carrying commies i can assure yolu that lefties do not give a crsap about increasing unemployment.

and the perennially high eu unemployment proves this.

you see, the left also wants the state to pay big unemployment benefts and for education and health and retirement.

so – the left would have you believe – who needs an efin job!?

cap n trade is part of an overall socialist plan to bring back the welfare state.

we know welfare states fail, economically and morally.

neverthless the leftwong utopianists want us to go back down that road.

the road to serfdom.

as the late mary travers used to sing:

“when will they ever learn?

when will they ever learn?”

reliapundit on September 18, 2009 at 11:50 AM

Quoted from the Captain: Those compliance costs won’t be evenly distributed across all income levels, either. The CBO shows in this chart that compliance costs will eat up purchasing power most at the lowest income levels by 2020, but that “allocations” (ie, welfare and subsidies) within the bill makes them the winner. The big loser? The middle class.

The plan appears obvious to me. Obama will turn the middle class into the poor class so that they, too, qualify for the freebie welfare handouts. Everyone wins, right?

jwolf on September 18, 2009 at 11:51 AM

We cannot let up or take our eyes off the ball for one second. Not one second!!!

Oink on September 18, 2009 at 11:52 AM

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 11:49 AM

Incentivising through subsidies: Evil

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 11:53 AM

This information doesn’t mean much to the average person but the yearly increase to the average family’s budget is going to go further to bring this bill to a screeching halt. That and the video of Mr. Obama happily talking about price increases of necessities.

Cindy Munford on September 18, 2009 at 11:53 AM

What would the cap-and-trade bill liberal agenda mean for Americans? Unnecessary misery and stagnation:

QFT

gwelf on September 18, 2009 at 11:53 AM

You would think that people would instinctively understand that the “Cap” in Cap&Trade is a cap on production. Crap&Trade is an attempt by staticists to make our nation static. Even the name says it.

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 11:54 AM

Incentivising through subsidies: Evil

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 11:53 AM

Then it seems that conservative gripes with energy policy should include more than just the easy partisan target. Yet I never hear about ending coal or oil subsidies…or even farm subsidies. Granted those are politically unpalatable to the locals involved…but wouldnt dropping the contradictions matter more in the long run than fighting the easy partisan fight exclusively?

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 11:54 AM

Here’s a related parody of what the future might look like: “Youth Celebrate 40th Anniversary of Obama Administration Debt and Energy Policies” http://optoons.blogspot.com/2009/08/youth-celebrate-40th-anniversary-of.html

Mervis Winter on September 18, 2009 at 11:55 AM

This is mind numbing. Absolutely everything this clown is doing will destroy the United States as we now know it. Of course that’s his goal … the radical transformation of America, but exactly what makes this stooge think people would just sit back and take it?

I don’t think it’s too soon to start whispering “Impeach”. Obama’s actions are nothing less than an aggressive assault on America and her people. He has declared war on the people of the United States.

This simply cannot continue for much longer. Soon, he heads to the UN to give away our sovereignty. This traitor must be neutered or ejected from power. I hope some sense is seeping into democrat Senators and Representatives. We need them to side with Republicans as Americans to rein in this dictator wannabe before his actions damage the US any further.

darwin on September 18, 2009 at 11:48 AM

Whisper be damned.

IMPEACH OBAMA

This emerging crisis will not be stopping any time soon.

turfmann on September 18, 2009 at 11:55 AM

Unnecessary misery and stagnation. Is that the same as malaise? Wow, a twofer.

Kissmygrits on September 18, 2009 at 11:58 AM

Death by a 1000 cuts.

Cap and trade is a lot more than a paper cut.

Mr. Joe on September 18, 2009 at 11:58 AM

Where’s that Reichstag fire, dammit!

I.M. Shatner on September 18, 2009 at 12:00 PM

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 11:54 AM

Then it seems that conservative gripes with energy policy should include more than just the easy partisan target. Yet I never hear about ending coal or oil subsidies…or even farm subsidies.

Conservative or GOP? Maybe not the GOP, but conservatives, like many here at HA, always gripe about subsidies to farmers, oil and coal. Just give Big Oil and Big Coal, and all companies, a low corporate tax rate, reduce regulations and get out of the way.

wouldnt dropping the contradictions matter more in the long run than fighting the easy partisan fight exclusively?

The trick in messaging is that libs define low taxes as subisidies. The tax rate of farmers, coal, oil, etc. should not be different (ideally zero).

Granted those are politically unpalatable to the locals involved…but wouldnt dropping the contradictions matter more in the long run than fighting the easy partisan fight exclusively?

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 12:00 PM

Thanks to Ed and AP, Al Gore is real sorry he invented the internet.

I.M. Shatner on September 18, 2009 at 12:01 PM

Are you saying that the loss of 3.5% of GDP is a bad thing?

Think about the planet man. Think about the planet.

Without the bill, the oceans will rise by millimeters man.

Who wants THAT?

3.5% is only about half of what you pay for food. It’s a small price to pay. And you are too fat anyway.

notagool on September 18, 2009 at 12:01 PM

Which is why crap-and-betrayed is dead. The Senate won’t dare touch this now.

Doughboy on September 18, 2009 at 11:40 AM

Dead? Likely.

Buried? No.

Can we start calling this bill, “Screw the kid’s future” bill? Just pile on. Taxes will have to be high to pay interest on the debt and less prosperity do to higher energy costs.

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 11:44 AM

That name would start getting redundant after February if we used it.

We passed one in October 2008 (which Bush signed, and though he was a good president I’ll never forgive him for it) known as ‘TARP’ (A.K.A. “Screw the kid’s future so some banks and congress can have a slush fund” bill).

We passed one in February called the stimulus (a.k.a. the economy stabilization bill or better– the “Screw the kids future so democrats can have a spending spree in 2010 and buy votes with taxpayer money” or even better! The “Screw the kids future so we can give ACORN money (and at least they can be ho’s to get some income on the side)” bill.

Fortunately Cap and Trade– or the “screw the kids so we can look like we’re actually doing something huge for the environment” bill hasn’t passed.

But just when we think it can’t get any worse, we’re now fighting the “Screw the kids! We want control of the healthcare system!” bill now.

And ironically, they claimed in the 1990′s that it was ‘for the children”!

Yeah f*cking right.

Chaz706 on September 18, 2009 at 12:02 PM

For what? To appease the environmental lobby over a hypothesis that the last ten years has all but disproven.

Being an ideologue is such a wonderful thing!

GrayDog on September 18, 2009 at 12:03 PM

But does the public understand? That is what has to be made clear…what is O’Keefe and Giles doing this week? I think they need to go into one of Gore’s companies, the problem is, she would have to push aside all the other “lobbyists whore’s” to get to Gore…

right2bright on September 18, 2009 at 12:03 PM

These freaks WANT us going backward. They want us failing. Gain power by government handouts. They have enslaved blacks and minorities using this tactic. Now they are doing it with the help of the Green religion. POWER POWER POWER

marklmail on September 18, 2009 at 12:05 PM

Do Americans want to pay this kind of price to surrender to climate-change hysteria?

No, Americans do not want to pay for this. Stooopid greeners don’t want to pay for it either. Typical idiocy, they just want what they want. There is no rhyme or reason. Obama/Chavez/Castro has got to go.

FREEDOM!

Blacksmith8 on September 18, 2009 at 12:06 PM

GDP would improve and emissions would fall if Barry would quit spewing carbon and CO2 all over the world with his incessant campaigning. Stopping smoking would help, too. But we’re supposed to let this guy dictate our energy and health policies.

Laughable.

Christien on September 18, 2009 at 12:07 PM

Chaz706 on September 18, 2009 at 12:02 PM

If this clause from the Confederate Consitution (Article I, Section 9, Clause 20):

20. Every law, or resolution having the force of law, shall relate to but one subject, and that shall be expressed in the title.

The would be forced to use the “Screw the kids” title on each bill you cited.

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 12:08 PM

The Barry O train has crashed. Health care take-over, crap and betrayed, amnesty for illegals – all his “let’s remake America” projects are dead. He is politically dead. He can make alot of noise with the State run media but none of his agenda will get passed the House or Senate. He met his Waterloo – the American people.

johnnybgood on September 18, 2009 at 12:10 PM

EPIC FAIL

NoFanofLibs on September 18, 2009 at 12:11 PM

Look at that chart again. It’s simply a graphic illustration of Barry Hussein’s sole purpose: Steal from people and give the loot those who really “deserve it.” It’s plain, old, Marxist-scarlet redistribution of wealth. The one group projected to make out better is the lowest quintile of income.

George Orwell on September 18, 2009 at 12:15 PM

“Barry is a commie, Barry is a commie. Na na na boo boo.”

Akzed on September 18, 2009 at 12:17 PM

His reply in a letter: In Delaware, we need to be concerned about global warming because we will be one of the first states to go underwater if we do not address “climate change.”
Joe Caps on September 18, 2009

Typical politician…he thinks the building where he works can pass legislation unilaterally and by confiscating even more hard earned income from Americans, he can actually prevent Delaware from being swallowed by the ocean!

Goodeye_Closed on September 18, 2009 at 12:18 PM

You realize, right, that this means that (assuming an average GDP growth of 3% per year) that the GDP will still grow 116.5-119% between now and 2050? It’s an almost insignificant price spread over 40 years balanced against tremendous potential losses from climate change.

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Are you really as dumb as your comments claim you are?

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 12:21 PM

One day in the near future we will all look around us and find that the polar ice caps are expanding and not melting away, that the Ozone layer remains intact, that the global average temperature has dropped and that anthropocentric climate change was nothing more than a cynical political device calculated to replace socialism after its 70-year experiment failed so dramatically.

The reckoning that follows that day will be epic. ALL of these charlatans will be dragged into hearings to explain their part in a global conspiracy to defraud industry, coerce governments and extort the public goodwill.

Let’s just hope Al Gore is still around when that happens.

Khorum on September 18, 2009 at 12:23 PM

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:19 PM
Are you really as dumb as your comments claim you are?

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 12:21 PM

This from someone who thinks a persuasive argument consists to 6th grade name calling? “Crap & Trade” ha ha — very witty and persuasive.

What is a staticist? Is it like a statistition?

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:25 PM

should be “statistician”

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:25 PM

What is a staticist? Is it like a statistition?

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:25 PM

The explanation is in the post, genius. But you probably won’t be able to figure it out, as that would take an IQ over 74.

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 12:27 PM

Measured at the projected 2010 level of income, the average per-household loss in purchasing power would be $90 in 2012 and $925 in 2050 and would average about $455 per U.S. household per year over the 2012–2050 period.

Give me your money, bluebleedingtool. You won’t miss it. It’s just a couple of percent. I’ll produce just as much effect on the climate as Al Gore, which is to say, nothing.

George Orwell on September 18, 2009 at 12:27 PM

What is a staticist? Is it like a statistition?

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:25 PM
The explanation is in the post, genius. But you probably won’t be able to figure it out, as that would take an IQ over 74.

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 12:27 PM

Color me impressed by your ability to coin new words. Perhaps it will catch on.

However, if you could read other words and comprehend, you’d know that the cumulative effect noted in the report amounts to a possible GDP growth rate less than one tenth of one percent slower (at the high end) than it would have been without C&T, possibly as low as about 2.5 one hundredths of a percent.

ie — a dynamic and growing economy, now that Obama is guiding out of the sh**hole the bush administration dug us into.

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:31 PM

Will America (in whatever form it may exist) still even have a GDP by 2050?

At the rate this nation is currently crumbling, I am not sure there is going to even be an America by then.

Dave R. on September 18, 2009 at 12:33 PM

I can’t believe we even have to argue this to the twits in DC.

Blake on September 18, 2009 at 12:39 PM

Never has there been a White House that acts against the American people and our interests as this one does.

Forget black vs white vs hispanic etc.

He’s screwing EVERYONE!

Stephanie on September 18, 2009 at 12:40 PM

The trick in messaging is that libs define low taxes as subisidies. The tax rate of farmers, coal, oil, etc. should not be different (ideally zero).

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 12:00 PM

Yep. Corporations don’t and never have paid a cent in taxes. Every dollar a corporation pays in taxes is paid by either the consumer that purchases the good/product or by a shareholder of the corporation.

I tried explaining this to a leftie once. His reply: you’re crazy. If what you say were true KPMG would be out of business because it would have no clients to audit. That’s the level of stupidity we are dealing with.

angryed on September 18, 2009 at 12:41 PM

Will America (in whatever form it may exist) still even have a GDP by 2050?

At the rate this nation is currently crumbling, I am not sure there is going to even be an America by then.

Dave R. on September 18, 2009 at 12:33 PM

Why so down?

The nation is on it’s way back. What was — at least in dollar amounts — essentially a bipartisan approach to safty-netting the economy, worked. The banking system is solid once again; the business cycle, with a boost from the stimulus (40% tax cuts!) is turning up; GDP has likel;y stopped plummeting; pent up demand and the pent up genius of the American enterpreneur will soon begin asserting itself; debate is lively and passionate, Obama hasn’t national;ized anything in weeks….

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:41 PM

This cinches it for Russia, China, & India. They will get ALL of the jobs in industry-we will produce NOTHING.
Meanwhile, raping & pillaging of everywhere in the world EXCEPT for America will begina anew.
Keep buying all those Chinese goods-keep on pollutin’.
Meanwhile-me & the husband here back at the ranch will keep on going back several hundred years as we have been due to rising energy costs:
1. put up more windmills for water in the pasture
2. cut more firewood this winter to avoid using propane-maybe start gathering the lignite that comes from upriver
3. keep using oil lamps (might have to start making my own product to burn in these lamps)
4. Next major energy-saving step: horse & buggy to work + get rid of the tractors & haying equipment, feed pick-up & buy a team. Lotsa old farm equiment rusting around here. Guess we might be having to salvage it.
All in all-husband’s work day goes from 14+hr to 28 hrs/day with ‘old’ technology.
Yipee.

Badger40 on September 18, 2009 at 12:45 PM

Obama hasn’t nationalized anything in weeks….

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:41 PM

OK…that’s funny. Good use of the word “weeks.” He is trying with health care. Hopefully that won’t end is “non-nationalization” streak.

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 12:45 PM

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:31 PM

Okay, there. Put a cap on production and then claim a dynamic and growing economy. Do you people even listen to yourselves?

Meh. You morons are proudly railing against “climate change”. LOL. “The world’s temperature must remain what it is now …” You morons don’t even realize how dumb you are – which is the dangerous part. Well, your economic theory being against “production change” – “CAP IT!!!” is along the same lines.

Western civilization is organized around growth. You self-hating idiots are trying to reformulate society to be organized about a stagnant, static world, because your pea-brains can’t imagine anything different than what we have today – except, of course, for the sudden appearance of the perpetual motion machines of your childish fantasies that will yield free energy for everyone.

Guess what. We already have something damn close to those machines in nuclear power plants, but you anti-growth staticists hate nuclear energy because it will spur even more growth and that will send your simple-minded ideas into a tailspin. Can’t have central committees controlling things if everything is changing around them.

All you morons want to do is stop the world, so that you can rule it. You are despicable, lying scumbags who are a fatal disease for humanity.

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 12:48 PM

And BTW-these moronic ag people who actually think that cap-&-trade is going to be their new gold rush: get a CLUE.
The $$ coming in for Carbon credits will in no way offset what you will be forced to pay in your personal life, that is also NOTHING next to what you’ll be paying to continue farming & ranching.

Badger40 on September 18, 2009 at 12:48 PM

angryed on September 18, 2009 at 12:41 PM

So you’re saying that because corps pass on tax costs to consumers that we shouldn’t tax corporations at all? Isnt that like, “well we cant catch all speeders, so no more tickets”?

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 12:49 PM

You are despicable, lying scumbags who are a fatal disease for humanity.

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 12:48 PM

now now, temper temper…

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 12:50 PM

BTW-Increases in atmospheric temperature are FOLLOWED by increases in atmospheric CO2-NOT the other way around as they huksters have been lying about.
The warming of the atmosphere therefore has NOTHING to do with any increases in CO@.
And water vapor makes up most of the active greenhouse gases in the atmosphere-NOT CO2.
&%$@#@(^%*!
Morons who have no scientific background should not be allowed to make decisions like this!

Badger40 on September 18, 2009 at 12:51 PM

The banking system is solid once again;

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:41 PM

Stop being so proud to display your boundless stupidity. It’s embarrassing.

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 12:51 PM

now now, temper temper…

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 12:50 PM

It’s just an accurate description. Don’t blame me for the left’s personality problems.

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Job killers.

Actually, country killers.

Texas and the rest of the red states will not, cannot, accept this crushing, absolutely unnecessary burden on their citizens.

Cap-and-trade = secession.

Let the blue states pay for 0bama’s insanity.

Rebar on September 18, 2009 at 12:54 PM

So you’re saying that because corps pass on tax costs to consumers that we shouldn’t tax corporations at all? Isnt that like, “well we cant catch all speeders, so no more tickets”?

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 12:49 PM

Not at all. If the government needs the revenue, and they does not, be upfront about it. Not advocating this, but a sales tax would be they way to do it. Let people know the cost of their government.

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 12:56 PM

Cap-and-trade = secession.

Let the blue states pay for 0bama’s insanity.

Rebar on September 18, 2009 at 12:54 PM

Bingo!

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 12:56 PM

This looks like a very effective way to destroy American culture, so it is high on Obama’s To Do List.

GaltBlvnAtty on September 18, 2009 at 12:57 PM

angryed on September 18, 2009 at 12:41 PM

So you’re saying that because corps pass on tax costs to consumers that we shouldn’t tax corporations at all? Isnt that like, “well we cant catch all speeders, so no more tickets”?

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 12:49 PM

I refuse to believe you’re that dense. Think about it some more and try again. Hint: this has nothing to do with tax evasion.

angryed on September 18, 2009 at 12:57 PM

speaking of jobs:

From Bloomberg today:

Payrolls fell last month in 42 states and the District of Columbia, today’s report showed. Texas showed the biggest drop with a 62,200 decrease. Michigan followed with a 42,900 drop and Georgia with a 35,000 decrease.

CHANGE!!

angryed on September 18, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Obama hasn’t nationalized anything in weeks….

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:41 PM
OK…that’s funny. Good use of the word “weeks.” He is trying with health care. Hopefully that won’t end is “non-nationalization” streak.

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 12:45 PM

The thing of it is, that, assuming a trillion dollar cost over ten years (33% higher than the Senate Finance bill) that’s only 4% of all health care spending over that time (using $2.25 trillian/year and unrealistically expecting it to remain constant).

I, too am eager for the government to get out of the banking and car business and am heartened to see that withdrawl proceeding apace in the banking business.

Western civilization is organized around growth. You self-hating idiots are trying to reformulate society to be organized about a stagnant, static world, because your pea-brains can’t imagine anything different than what we have today – except, of course, for the sudden appearance of the perpetual motion machines of your childish fantasies that will yield free energy for everyone.

Guess what. We already have something damn close to those machines in nuclear power plants, but you anti-growth staticists hate nuclear energy because it will spur even more growth and that will send your simple-minded ideas into a tailspin. Can’t have central committees controlling things if everything is changing around them.

All you morons want to do is stop the world, so that you can rule it. You are despicable, lying scumbags who are a fatal disease for humanity.

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 12:48 PM

I think I’ve figured out your problem. Either you’re desoerately unhappy with your marriage, your job or some other important aspect of your life, or you read The Monkey Wrench Gang years ago and somehow fixated on a group of fictional stoner extremists as rality, rather than the real reality of an electoral majority (for now) of moderately left-of-center Americans who like money, want to raise their kids right, and are pretty patriotic.

As soon as you stop raging agianst comic book characters and deal wioth reality, we can talk.

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 1:01 PM

So you’re saying that because corps pass on tax costs to consumers that we shouldn’t tax corporations at all? Isnt that like, “well we cant catch all speeders, so no more tickets”?

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 12:49 PM

angryed is saying that corporate taxes are really taxes on consumption, but hidden in the background. If the government wants to tax consumption, then that tax should be out front where the consumer sees what the government is taking – a consumption/sales tax so that every consumer can see exactly what the government is taking. Taxing the corporation hides that. Do you know what taxes the manufacturer of anything pays? No. But if you saw (and paid for) a sales tax, you would know exactly how much the government is taking from that transaction and how much of the price is going straight to the government, versus the actual cost of production/marketing …

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 1:02 PM

Yep looks about right.

The poorest end up with a small net positive of wealth redistribution. The rest see a huge amount funneled to democrats to develop interest groups (green economy) that votes blue.

Just like every other liberal policy it creates democrat voting parasites.

jhffmn on September 18, 2009 at 1:03 PM

Looking at that pair of charts, this just looks like a typical wealth-redistribution scheme. Like a watermelon, your typical Cap & Trade advocate has a thin green skin and a core that’s solid Red.

Blacksmith on September 18, 2009 at 1:07 PM

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 12:56 PM

angryed on September 18, 2009 at 12:57 PM

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 1:02 PM

OK OK, I stand corrected. And for the record I’m with y’all on that, taxing consumption would be better than the myriad taxes that get levied currently.

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 1:12 PM

They don’t give a damn about emissions:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-solar18-2009sep18,0,1844073.story

Solar energy firm drops plan for project in Mojave Desert
BrightSource Energy’s decision ends a battle with environmentalists over a 5,130-acre site in a proposed national monument.

less than 1% of the land in a proposed national monument, when there is already a large national park and another large national monument area in the same part of the Mojave.

funky chicken on September 18, 2009 at 1:14 PM

The problem is that even if the congress does nothing SCOTUS has given the EPA the power to limit CO2 as a pollutant. Anyway you look at it we are royally screwed.

RobD on September 18, 2009 at 1:14 PM

potential losses from climate change.

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:19 PM

The Paleozoic had a lotta climate change goin’ on. So did the Triassic. So did the Jurassic.
Climate change is a buzzword for nonscientific types.
It means nothing.
Climates are always changing. They will do so without our help.
As I said above: the only correlation between CO2 & temperature is that with rising temps, you have rising CO2 levels.
CO2 has never been proven or found to be a cause of rising temps:PERIOD.
Clean air & water is something to strive for.
Using mythology to attain a utpoic Garden of Eden is facist.

Badger40 on September 18, 2009 at 1:15 PM

The thing of it is, that, assuming a trillion dollar cost over ten years (33% higher than the Senate Finance bill) that’s only 4% of all health care spending over that time (using $2.25 trillian/year and unrealistically expecting it to remain constant).

I, too am eager for the government to get out of the banking and car business and am heartened to see that withdrawl proceeding apace in the banking business.

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 1:01 PM

But you well know that if Obama was executive and legisture, he would implement a universal\single payer health care plan and thus nationalize the industry. That is his preferred solution, but that solution is not politically feasible in this country.

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 1:16 PM

The thing of it is, that, assuming a trillion dollar cost over ten years (33% higher than the Senate Finance bill) that’s only 4% of all health care spending over that time (using $2.25 trillian/year and unrealistically expecting it to remain constant).

I, too am eager for the government to get out of the banking and car business and am heartened to see that withdrawl proceeding apace in the banking business.

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 1:01 PM

But you well know that if Obama was executive and legisture, he would implement a universal\single payer health care plan and thus nationalize the industry. That is his preferred solution, but that solution is not politically feasible in this country.

I am having a bad day formatting comments!

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 1:16 PM

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Brilliant. Really. “Real reality”. I like that. “Pretty patriotic” … heh. Just the fact that you, yoruself, have to qualify their alleged patriotism says it all. We know that patriotism is not part of the left. The left hates America, as your policies clearly show. Sure, the left loves America’s wealth, but they hate how it was created – because they don’t understand it – which is why they are in such a rush to confiscate it and redistribute it to unproductive sectors that would waste it all and leave nothing.

Your attempt to make the left (moderately left-of-center – LOL) look reasonable is hysterical in that it shows how hard you have to work and how much you have to lie to do it.

Your Precedent and Washington junta are driving this nation to ruin because the leftist mindset is that of a staticist, which is death in the real world. You know, the real, true reality of real realness, really – as you would say.

But, thanks for the laughs.

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 1:18 PM

funky chicken on September 18, 2009 at 1:14 PM

Read it. Oh brother. You’re damned if you do & damned if you don’t.
I though it interesting they want to protect a genetic variant of lizard.
Genetic variants of species exist everywhere bcs they genetically & phsically adapt constantly to their environments. It does not mean they have to save every single different genetic combo they find.
I am curious as to where cap-&-traders think solar & wind farms should go.
Next thing you know they’ll be using eminent domain to confiscate private property for wind & solar farms.

Badger40 on September 18, 2009 at 1:20 PM

OK OK, I stand corrected. And for the record I’m with y’all on that, taxing consumption would be better than the myriad taxes that get levied currently.

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 1:12 PM

A fair tax system would be ideal. Corporations would pay taxes when they consume non-revenue generating goods and services (i.e., non-cost of goods sold items). Small business owners that use the tax dedcution system to lessen their income tax burdern would not have to play this game.

WashJeff on September 18, 2009 at 1:22 PM

I swear these a$$hole$ will never be happy until we are serfs living back like the middle ages.
Except we can’t burn wood or peat to keep warm.
It realeases CO2.
Can’t use your BBQ-carbon is released.
Can’t breath or fart: C is released.
If you even die, C is released.
So a new death tax could be assessed: you die, you pay a carbon tax.

Badger40 on September 18, 2009 at 1:23 PM

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Umm, praying to Erlich and lionizing Pol Pot isn’t considered patriotic, douche. And yes, you like money. Other people’s.

PimFortuynsGhost on September 18, 2009 at 1:23 PM

Bleeds Blue on September 18, 2009 at 12:41 PM

Dude, seriously, what color is the sky in your world?

Dave R. on September 18, 2009 at 1:23 PM

taxing consumption would be better than the myriad taxes that get levied currently.

ernesto on September 18, 2009 at 1:12 PM

I don’t think taxing anything that is necessary to live & produce is a good idea.
The govt has no business taxing the pen I use, or the food I eat (only some states) or my estate when I die.
It’s all stealing & it has to stop.

Badger40 on September 18, 2009 at 1:26 PM

Genetic variants of species exist everywhere bcs they genetically & phsically adapt constantly to their environments. It does not mean they have to save every single different genetic combo they find.

Badger40 on September 18, 2009 at 1:20 PM

Blasphemer! The left knows better than evolution. Sure, the left screams about teaching evolution in high schools, but they have never seen an evolutionary pressure they don’t know better than. Pick any group of living organisms and the left can tell you whether they should live or die, and how many humans need to be sacrificed in order to bring the desired results. The left believe that all of the Earth should be run by Central Committee – the Utopian Nightmare.

progressoverpeace on September 18, 2009 at 1:27 PM

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