For those who are interested, Mary, the Queen of Heaven, is not the pagan “queen of heaven.”

It comes from Jesus being our Davidic King forever. All the Davidic Kings, starting with Solomon, put a throne at their right hand for their mother, the Queen Mother, to sit. The Kings had many wives, so it was their mother who was Queen. And a person could go to the Queen Mother and ask favors of her son, for her to intercede and ask of him.

The office of Queen Mother, as well as chief steward, is seen throughout the Old Testament.

Jesus is our Davidic King forever and His mother is the Queen Mother. Like we see in Revelation 12, the woman clothed with the sun with the crown of stars on her head. After the Ark of the Old Covenant is mentioned at the end of Chapter 11 (there were no chapters and verses until about a thousand years ago), then the woman is mentioned. Mary was considered by the first Christians to be the Ark of the New Covenant.

Revelation 12:1-5,17:

“A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. . . .
Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the REST OF HER OFFSPRING, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.”

The Church has always interpreted Revelation in several ways, all correctly on different levels. Because this is apocalyptic writing. The woman is the Church and the woman is Israel. But the plain meaning has always been that clearly this woman is also Mary and it says that we (those who bear witness to Jesus) are the ‘REST OF HER OFFSPRING.”

Mary is “the woman” of the Bible. In the beginning in Genesis, the woman who’s offspring would crush the head of the serpent and at the end in Revelation when we see the woman and the same serpent. At the beginning of St. John’s Gospel when Jesus respectfully calls her “woman” at Cana at the beginning of His earthly ministry and at the end of the same Gospel on the cross at the end of His earthly ministry when He says, “woman, behold your son.” The Bible has a lot of symmetry.

By their fruits you will know them. Any Christian, no matter how close they are to Jesus, can become even closer to Him by praying to the Blessed Mother, along with our prayers to Christ. It is just a fact. Try it with a sincere heart and it will be proven to anyone. It was proven to me. Mary never points to herself, she always points to her Son. And her message is always the same, at Cana and today: “Do whatever He tells you.”

We don’t pray to the same Holy Spirit.

TTheoLogan on September 18, 2009 at 1:47 AM

That’s too bad.

And I say that for you, not for me. I know what the Spirit of Truth has put in my heart. And I recognize that Spirit in other Christians, even in Jews who believe in the Spirit of God from the Old Testament.

The Church teaches that the Holy Spirit exists in the hearts of all Christians and can work through other denominations. But that there is only one physical Church of the Apostles, to which all Christians belong, at least partially, to the extent they believe in her truth, given by the Holy Spirit.

That you do not recognize the Holy Spirit in my words or in the Words of His Church tells me that you are not one of the sheep who hears His voice. I pray I am wrong. I pray that it is only stubbornness or obstinance that blinds you. I pray that one day you will see.

I totally understand other Christians who do not believe as Catholics do. But most do recognzied the Holy Spirit in us.

That you do not, speaks volumes to me. I will not continue the discussion.

You ignored all the factual history from my last post on where the Bible came from. It was not as cut and dry as you would like to believe.

I know you think you know and understand Catholic teaching, but I see so many errors in what you write. You know some facts and misinterpret others. You do not see and have hardened your heart. That does not have to be a permanent condition.

I will pray for you, as I pray for all those here. Those who agree with me and those who do not.

No, you borrowed half your religion from other pagan religions, like the worship of Isis/Mary(Queen of Heaven), the prayer beads, idols, and many of your holy days.

TTheoLogan on September 18, 2009 at 1:49 AM

I don’t worship Mary. Scripture is quite clear on who she is, however, and I am reverent toward her. As anyone who prays for another’s well being can attest, intercession is possible, and who would not want Jesus’ mother to intercede for them?

As for prayer beads (the Rosary), where is the prohibition? Are not prayers and meditation on what God wants us to do good? As for the rest, which holy days offend you, and where are the idols of which you speak\?

I know who has an idol (human-manufactured god), and it is, from your comments, you.

Question: Will you also concede that Rome is failing to demonstrate its leadership over Fr. John Jenkins? I make a suggestion. If Rome is silent on this issue you should follow her wisdom and stop complaining as well. If Rome doesn’t have a problem with a pro-abortion leader to speak at a Roman Catholic university AND if Rome doesn’t have a problem with Fr. John Jenkins filing charges against those rise up against such leader, you should also remain silent.

shick on September 18, 2009 at 9:10 AM

A bishop is Pope in his own diocese. Bishop D’Arcy has already made his position well known to Fr. Jenkins. I’m sure if Bishop D’Arcy asked the Pope, we’d hear something; I also suspect that D’Arcy hasn’t asked — who wants to be a wuss in their diocese by asking for heavy lifting, and who in Rome wants to undermine the authority of the local Bishop by interfering without his formal request?

Indeed, D’Arcy has the right to demand that Fr. Jenkins appear in his offices to explain his position, and Fr. Jenkins would then be obligated to do so. I have yet to hear that happen. Maybe D’Arcy is a bit smarter than you give him credit — after all, persecution of people with whom you claim you agree is not going to look very good for either ND or Jenkins. If Jenkins wants to show up at a pro-life march in Washington a few months hence (as he’s indicated is his wish) and not have everyone in sight, regardless of religion, give him what-for, he’s going to have to give in.

No sentient, moral person claims otherwise

–proconstitution, just because Ken Starr believed Clinton committed perjury doesn’t mean the rest of the world agrees. You have no right to tell me I have no ethics or morals because I disagree with you.

Question: Will you also concede that Rome is failing to demonstrate its leadership over Fr. John Jenkins? I make a suggestion. If Rome is silent on this issue you should follow her wisdom and stop complaining as well. If Rome doesn’t have a problem with a pro-abortion leader to speak at a Roman Catholic university AND if Rome doesn’t have a problem with Fr. John Jenkins filing charges against those rise up against such leader, you should also remain silent.

shick on September 18, 2009 at 9:10 AM

The Vatican itself has received Obama. They, and ND, can both recognize Obama as a head of state and disagree with his position on abortion or other policy.

The protesters should be treated like other protesters. It is possible to agree with their message but disagree with the method of expression. The ND president has a campus full of kids who will likely protest some issue again in the future. He can’t allow disruptive activity.

Amazingly, nobody is forcing you to be a Catholic. And nobody is forcing me either.

I never suggested anyone was.
However, you made a choice to post a comment that disparages my faith and the denomination that represents half or mores of the world’s Christians.

I am not saying anything less disparaging then what the reformers responded to Rome years ago with and also nothing less than what Rome said to the reformers. There is an enormous divide between us on doctrine that you can’t ignore with fluffy words of ecumenism.

If you want to invite people into your house, please do so. But if you throw fire bombs at other people’s houses, don’t expect that will increase the likelihood your invitation will be accepted.

Loxodonta on September 17, 2009 at 4:18 PM

This is your house? I didn’t know this was a catholic owned site.

Question: Will you also concede that Rome is failing to demonstrate its leadership over Fr. John Jenkins? I make a suggestion. If Rome is silent on this issue you should follow her wisdom and stop complaining as well. If Rome doesn’t have a problem with a pro-abortion leader to speak at a Roman Catholic university AND if Rome doesn’t have a problem with Fr. John Jenkins filing charges against those rise up against such leader, you should also remain silent.

But doing God’s work puts them a lot closer then a poster criticizing a religion he knows nothing about.

right2bright on September 17, 2009 at 4:17 PM

Thousands of evil men do good that was foreordained by God but that will not save them from the wraith of God. Only believing in the one time finished work of Christ can do that.

That’s a pretty bold statement make in assuming I know nothing of Roman Catholicism. I was raised as a faithful Catholic for 23 years and have been studying it consistently after to make sure I do not falsly represent it.

Exposing any false gospel and calling people to repent and believe is doing God’s work.

The above unwelcome advertisement has been posted by a bigoted, anti-Catholic…

tigerlily on September 17, 2009 at 4:06 PM

Advertisement? What exactly to you suggest I’m advertising? Anti-catholic bigotry? Puh-lease. Ya know, Jimmy Carter, I’m going to call you on your bigotry card so that all can see that you have an empty hand. I strongly disagree with Roman Catholic doctrine but I do not hate Roman Catholics. In fact I was a Roman Catholic and the majority of my nuclear family still is. I don’t hate them but show love to them by exposing the false gospel that they have been led to believe. But instead of agreeing to disagree with me it’s easier for you to throw out the bigotry card.

…troll who doesn’t understand that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which has been handed down to all Christians from Christ and the apostles, is the SAME Gospel which has been canonized and protected in the Bible, which incidentally the Catholic Church compiled in the Fourth century, A.D. …

In this very post you demonstrate the false gospel that Rome proclaims. Instead of salvation coming from the Lord you attribute God’s word to the Catholic Church. God’s word was recognized by his true church way before the fourth century.

The apostle Paul commended believers that recognized what he had taught them was the word of God and not influenced by man.

Athanasias was very much alone against a hostile majority “that was the church” on who had ecclesiastical authority; scripture alone or Rome. God protected and confirmed him to the end.

…Someone needs to get back under the bridge.

You can’t even use the troll card. For I am keeping the discussion related to the topic at hand and my comments are no less controversial than this topic as well. The events that have been taking place at N.D. clearly demonstrates to anyone who truly searches for truth that Rome fails at its attempt to lead the church.

No, it isn’t — I said we standardized. In an age where nothing was printed and everything was hand-written, assuring quality control was job 1 for the Bible makers.

All the versions, in every language, that the Reformation people used to develop their translations came from the Catholic Church. In fact, the training in those languages was Catholic, too.

We brought your Bible unscathed from its beginnings through to modernity.

Of course, you don’t have to thank us, but we know you secretly appreciate it.

unclesmrgol on September 17, 2009 at 5:38 PM

No, you borrowed half your religion from other pagan religions, like the worship of Isis/Mary(Queen of Heaven), the prayer beads, idols, and many of your holy days.

Of course we don’t ignore the Bible. We interpret it differently than you do. Yet we both pray to the same Holy Spirit for discernment. I believe Christ left us His physical Church built on the Apostles to help in that discernment of the Holy Spirit’s voice. Through the oral Word of God, Sacred Tradition.
Elisa on September 18, 2009 at 12:44 AM

We don’t pray to the same Holy Spirit. There’s as much distinction with catholicism from biblical Christianity as with mormonism and many other cults. It’s just more acceptable nowadays. You cannot separate Catholicism from the worship of Mary(you use the euphemism “venerate”), worship of idols, etc.

It wasn’t until the mid 1900s that you even allowed laymen access to the bible. But, like mormonism did with revamping its racist theology toward blacks to fit with the times, you also realized what you had to do to keep followers.

I’d encourage you sometime, if you’re really interested, to see how many catholic traditions have been taken from other religions, including Islam.

If that was accurate, we’d still be using the extra non-biblical books your church uses.

TTheoLogan on September 17, 2009 at 5:02 PM

I’ve always loved this argument, though.
“We put the bible together, so we have a right to ignore it!”

TTheoLogan on September 17, 2009 at 5:03 PM

Of course we don’t ignore the Bible. We interpret it differently than you do. Yet we both pray to the same Holy Spirit for discernment. I believe Christ left us His physical Church built on the Apostles to help in that discernment of the Holy Spirit’s voice. Through the oral Word of God, Sacred Tradition.

The Bishops of the Church in the 4th century, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, selected what books went into the New Testament you hold in your hands right now. If they had selected differently, then your Bible might not have Hebrews or James or Revelation or some other books and might have the Epistle of Barnabas instead or the Shepherd of Hermes.

While the Gospels and Paul’s letters were considered scriptural by all Christians universally since the first century, several other books were widely, but not universally accepted as Scriptural. And there were other 1st century books in that same category that were and are good Christian writings (widely, but not universally accepted as scriptural) that the Bishops did not put into the canon of the New Testament. And of course there were other nonsense books that were never considered Scriptural by the Church, like the Gnostic “gospels.”

I have faith in the Bible canon because I have faith that the Holy Spirit works infallibly in the formal decisions of the Church in matters of faith.

It never made sense to me that someone could be confident that the New Testament canon is correct and know that all those books were the Word of God, yet not believe the Holy Spirit worked through the Bishops who chose the books. One could say they “feel” the books are the Word of God. But that is still subjective and there were other good Christian books that if you read them would also “feel” like the Word of God. And one’s own subjective judgment is open to error. We aren’t God.

2 Peter 1:18-21:

“We ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.”

The Holy Spirit used the Sacred Tradition of the Church to write, collect, preserve and pass on the books of the Bible and used it to come up with the canon of Scripture. And while Protestants accept those decisions of the Bishops about the New Testament canon, they do not accept the same decisions of the same Bishops at the same councils written in the same proclamations when they pertain to the Old Testament canon. That never made sense to me either.

Good night all and God bless you.

It’s not just that Fr. Jenkins showing hypocrisy.

Fr. Jenkins is also ‘a lost sheep’.

It is my duty along with other Catholics to point out to them their hypocrisy and try to persuade them back to the flock.

If he would show mercy to the ND88, I’ll be the first one waiting in DC to walk with him.

If he shows no mercy, …well you reap what you sow.

Sapwolf on September 17, 2009 at 8:56 PM

Absolutely. And may God bless you for what you are going through for Him. You are our voice. Thank you.

Fr. Jenkins has disgraced himself and could begin to make ammends by dropping the charges.

Like Ed said so well:
Jenkins should drop the charges and end what seems to be a personal grudge against these activists. Until he does, he risks being a modern-day Pharisee, hiding behind trespassing statutes to gain retribution against those who publicly disagreed with Jenkins about his invitation to Obama. We’ll pray that Jenkins makes the right decision.

Sapwolf on September 17, 2009 at 10:59 PM

Don’t forget your camera. We’d like to see the youtube of whatever goes down with Fr. Jenkins.

Sapwolf on September 17, 2009 at 10:59 PM

There’s a reason why Jenkins is going to Washington for pro-life — I’m betting ND donations are down quite a bit, and he’s trying to get some “moral” capital. Just make sure your friends give him an earful.

Anyways, hope this piece of info helps. I do think you were wrong to tresspass, but I also think you were not properly prepared. Sorry.

Jimbo3 on September 17, 2009 at 8:58 PM

We all knew what we were getting into. I knew I would probably be arrested.

There comes a point when you just have to do what is right, like Ghandi and MLK, despite the dangers.

Like sheep among wolves.

No sentient, moral person claims otherwise.

I am just shocked that the leaders of the protest didn’t prepare you better for this. Terry, Schneidler (sic) and the priest who got carried away have been arrested at least thirty or forty times each and, I think, all have gone to jail for some time. If they didn’t prepare you for the possibility that you could be arrested by campus or South Bend police and tell you what you should and shouldn’t do, they should be ashamed of themselves. I mean it’s just basic stuff to never sign something given to you in connection with public or private police action.

Anyways, hope this piece of info helps. I do think you were wrong to tresspass, but I also think you were not properly prepared. Sorry.

Fr. Jenkins is also ‘a lost sheep’.

It is my duty along with other Catholics to point out to them their hypocrisy and try to persuade them back to the flock.

If he would show mercy to the ND88, I’ll be the first one waiting in DC to walk with him.

If he shows no mercy, …well you reap what you sow.

Eh. ND complained to the police about the trespass. The trespassers refused to leave when ordered by the police to do so. They wanted to be arrested and they were. It is the prosecutor who makes the decision to file charges – not the police and not ND.

They could have peacefully demonstrated and got their point across. However, they chose to trespass and attempt to disrupt the commencement.

I see no reason for the DA to drop charges against them. My advice to them, is advance their case, plead guilty, take your punishment which will probably be a small fine, and sin no more.

Blake on September 17, 2009 at 2:31 PM

ND was notified beforehand and they had all the campus and local police ready to arrest us.

It happened days before the commencement and was peaceful. Witnesses will confirm it.

I’m not pleading to anything, I am fighting it until they drop the charges, or I win (and if I win, it is a win for all Catholics).

By the way, I committed no sin in my protest, merely it appears that I broke a trespass rule that is normally NOT enforced on ANYBODY else.

You missed my point, highhopes. If it’s not tresspassing to go onto ND property, then it’s not tresspassing to go onto any church’s propery, right?

Jimbo3 on September 17, 2009 at 2:27 PM

Jimbo,

They did not arrest us because we were trespassing. They arrested us because they believed, despite being a Catholic institution, that it was proper to let Obama use the commencement address and his honorary degree as a platform against life.

The trespassing law which is virtually never used on ND was used sort of but not completely like how Al Capone was nailed for tax evasion.

Deb, I’m saying that MLK had the courage to stand for his views and take the legal consequences.

Jimbo3 on September 17, 2009 at 2:03 PM

Should I be assassinated too Jimbo3?