Video: Hey, let’s give kids “Miranda warnings” about not having to say the pledge of allegiance
posted at 6:17 pm on September 16, 2009 by Allahpundit
An ACLU-infused palate cleanser via Breitbart. As goofy as this sounds, the logic of the Miranda decision does lend itself to the schoolroom — sort of. The reason the Warren Court forced cops to tell suspects that they had a right not to talk is because, supposedly, the coercion inherent in being incommunicado in police custody is so overwhelming that most people simply wouldn’t have the stones to assert their rights if they weren’t reminded of them. Kids face a coercive environment too, albeit in different ways, but coercive enough to warrant a formal warning that they don’t have to say the pledge?
“The Pledge of Allegiance creates a constitutional problem. You have to tell students they can opt out,” the Rev. Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, told FOX News.
New Mexico dealt with this question last month when its education secretary upheld that students are permitted to opt out of the Pledge, but rejected an ACLU-backed amendment that would require schools to inform parents and students that they have the option.
In Florida, schools have tried to resolve uncertainty by announcing a new policy — students don’t have to participate, as long as they have a letter from Mom and Dad.
Talking to a cop might lead to lethal injection. Talking to the flag might lead to — what? Patriotism? Laryngitis? Exit question: Does a guy who runs a group devoted to separation of church and state really want to argue that coercion in public schoolrooms can be cured by a reading of one’s rights? I can think of something else students typically recite in the mornings which social cons would be only too happy to adapt that reasoning to.
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How about opening investigations into the ACLU. There could be a more anti-American organization in the country, but I would be hard pressed to figure out which one it is.
afotia on September 16, 2009 at 6:20 PM
Ok AP, you’ve got to have a law degree, you do don’t you? Comon, give me that much.
Meric1837 on September 16, 2009 at 6:21 PM
Barry Lynn is running his mouth again I see.
annoyinglittletwerp on September 16, 2009 at 6:22 PM
When I was in elementary, the only kids who didn’t say the pledge were the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Which I didn’t understand, and still don’t. Then in high school, kids just got lazy.
Emily M. on September 16, 2009 at 6:22 PM
And when asked to turn in their homework, the clever kid would say, “I didn’t do it for fear of incriminating myself.”
catmman on September 16, 2009 at 6:23 PM
good lord…and my grandson starts school next yr. Im trying to talk my daughter into homeschooling. I cant stand this political correctness bs…let alone the textbooks.
becki51758 on September 16, 2009 at 6:24 PM
I want a Miranda warning before I read the NY Times or watch Charlie Gibson on ABC News
faraway on September 16, 2009 at 6:24 PM
Yeah, the Pledge does have that pesky “under God” thingy in it.
TXUS on September 16, 2009 at 6:24 PM
I can think of something else students typically recite in the mornings which social cons would be only too happy to adapt that reasoning to.
The only thing I can think of is “I don’t want to go to school today”, so please satisfy my curiosity.
fourdeucer on September 16, 2009 at 6:24 PM
Just try to make me do that in my classroom.
Bob's Kid on September 16, 2009 at 6:24 PM
Where can we get a volume discount on hidden cameras?
faraway on September 16, 2009 at 6:25 PM
I’d rather Mirandize older kids so they know they don’t have to submit to strip searches by school authorities.
malclave on September 16, 2009 at 6:25 PM
I kind of agree with this. I’ve always thought saying the pledge every day in school was a little Stalinesque.
(walking into my bunker now to avoid the slings and arrows)
angryed on September 16, 2009 at 6:25 PM
Read the 9/11 thread, Twittered by AP compiled by Andy Levy.
Cindy Munford on September 16, 2009 at 6:25 PM
I remember years ago when a classmate of mine who was a Jehovas Witness refused to take the pledge. She said it violated the command to have no Gods before the Lord God, or something. It was quite scandal.
When I went home last spring to Oklahoma for my niece’s graduation, the entire student body, along with their families and friends stood and up said the Pledge. They also had a prayer.
I love Oklahoma.
Terrye on September 16, 2009 at 6:25 PM
Yeah, I am with you I haven’t a clue but I figure in my case it’s my age.
Cindy Munford on September 16, 2009 at 6:26 PM
Uh, no. Mirandizing is about informing people of their rights, not reminding them.
progressoverpeace on September 16, 2009 at 6:26 PM
When my daughter was in elementary school, her teacher had an earth flag and had the kids pledge allegiance to the earth. We caught wind of it and the regular flag came back. She just refused to pledge. This was a public school.
sandee on September 16, 2009 at 6:27 PM
ACLU on the case, because although you probably need a direct briefing on the fact you can’t be made to swear an oath of loyalty there is probably nothing wrong with being forced to pledge overt support to the President of the United States at age 5….
//ACLU
sven10077 on September 16, 2009 at 6:27 PM
You answered your own question…
… and the Left just CAN’T have any of THAT!
Seven Percent Solution on September 16, 2009 at 6:28 PM
Yeah, I am with you I haven’t a clue but I figure in my case it’s my age.
Cindy Munford on September 16, 2009 at 6:26 PM
I probably have kids your age, I can only guess what my grandkids are saying.
fourdeucer on September 16, 2009 at 6:28 PM
I think if the child’s parent has a problem with it, the child knows and teachers handle this daily. Making an announcement just gives the opportunity to be a little desperado to get attention.
Cindy Munford on September 16, 2009 at 6:28 PM
56 really really soon.
Cindy Munford on September 16, 2009 at 6:29 PM
I don’t get it either. What else do they typically recite?
p0s3r on September 16, 2009 at 6:29 PM
I ain’t near as old as the other codgers on this board asking the question.
p0s3r on September 16, 2009 at 6:30 PM
Private school is looking better all the time….
donkichi on September 16, 2009 at 6:30 PM
Lefties are now lobbying for the rights of their children to burn flags while the others are pledging allegiance.
progressoverpeace on September 16, 2009 at 6:30 PM
Cindy Munford on September 16, 2009 at 6:29 PM
60
fourdeucer on September 16, 2009 at 6:31 PM
if some kid in my class refused to say the pledge, we’d have a ‘discussion’ with him at recess.
DrW on September 16, 2009 at 6:32 PM
Were the kids told of this option to opt out when Ogabe gave his speech?
Bishop on September 16, 2009 at 6:32 PM
I knew it! I’ve been reading AP long enough to see him use legal terms of art and no one does an analysis of Miranda for fun. Also, I’ve never heard of anyone refer to “the Warren court” that wasn’t a lawyer. It’s just a little gratifying to know I was right about our resident mystery blogger, even if he did admit it himself.
Meric1837 on September 16, 2009 at 6:33 PM
That “reasoning” assumes a non-existent concept of separation of state and state. Nice try though.
Ronnie on September 16, 2009 at 6:33 PM
Why would a group like the ACLU who supports N.A.M.B.L.A. care what kids do?
FontanaConservative on September 16, 2009 at 6:34 PM
So, OT, but why do you blog anonymously anyways AP? Safety concerns, or did you just start on a whim one day and never stop?
kc8ukw on September 16, 2009 at 6:35 PM
When I was in 1st or 2nd grade, one kid in my class didn’t recite the Pledge (he did stand out of respect as the rest of us recited it).
The teacher explained to the rest of us that it was because of what he believed, and that was okay in America.
We had a somewhat similar talk when we found out the Jewish kids in the class didn’t celebrate Christmas.
No scandal. Not even a big deal, except the rest of us asking some silly questions for a couple of days.
malclave on September 16, 2009 at 6:35 PM
Why hasn’t the ACLU sued to have the miranda warning read before the Star Spangled Banner at football games?
Cybergeezer on September 16, 2009 at 6:36 PM
…and supports the rights of child pornography, and are blatant advocates of abortions of all kinds, and the list goes on.
FontanaConservative on September 16, 2009 at 6:38 PM
Yeah, lets fire up a rousing debate about the pledge of allegiance. I think perhaps liberals have decided the best way to deal with conservatives is cause them a heart attack. It’s so wacky it just might work, because I can hear conservative heads popping as they read this.
DFCtomm on September 16, 2009 at 6:38 PM
Would you put your name on that crap?
Ronnie on September 16, 2009 at 6:39 PM
Becuase it’s football. Even they realize you don’t mess with football.
malclave on September 16, 2009 at 6:40 PM
First, stop kids from saying the pledge of allegiance to the American flag. Then it easier to disassociate from their country. Next, teach them to pledge allegiance to a one world flag while including an entitlement mentality to a nation they could care less about.
meMC on September 16, 2009 at 6:40 PM
OT: Next acorn video to air at 9pm est. That is when Hannity is on. Check big govt’s web site.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33581
milwife88 on September 16, 2009 at 6:40 PM
I don’t care about the Pledge being recited.
What I DO care about is what is in the textbooks.
bridgetown on September 16, 2009 at 6:41 PM
BTW according to the article…it’s not the last one.
milwife88 on September 16, 2009 at 6:41 PM
Does the ACLU want the UN flag in the classroom?
Cybergeezer on September 16, 2009 at 6:42 PM
Do the kiddies have to recite the Gettysburg Address if assigned to do so?
Ronnie on September 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM
It’s a few decades in my past, but I still have vivid and valuable memories of reciting the pledge of allegiance in school. Enough of these G-dless loons; the pledge doesn’t need a black-label warning.
redfoxbluestate on September 16, 2009 at 6:45 PM
tuffy on September 16, 2009 at 6:45 PM
So what is it???????
Cindy Munford on September 16, 2009 at 6:47 PM
Just to put my point in context, Warren, himself, wrote the decision, stating:
Miranda is not about reminding anyone of anything.
progressoverpeace on September 16, 2009 at 6:48 PM
How about giving Obama “Miranda warnings” before asking him about all his connections to ACORN?
MB4 on September 16, 2009 at 6:51 PM
I don’t trust people who repeat oaths. It only takes once, or they’re doing it wrong. Allegiance doesn’t wear off.
exception on September 16, 2009 at 6:52 PM
He’s talking about school prayer, but it’s a ridiculous analogy since there’s no such thing as separation of state and state. It’s just allah’s backhanded way of pretending social conservatives are as bad as the ACLU.
Ronnie on September 16, 2009 at 6:52 PM
How about giving Obama “Miranda warnings” before asking him about all his connections to ACORN?
MB4 on September 16, 2009 at 6:51 PM
Now that is a good idea while he is marched out of the whitehouse in manacles.
fourdeucer on September 16, 2009 at 6:53 PM
The Pledge of Allegiance only needs to be said on the first day of school each year.
reciting it every day is robotic, and dimishes the impact of the concept and intention.
profitsbeard on September 16, 2009 at 6:54 PM
Just one more reason why lawyers need to be b*tch slapped with regularity.
Fletch54 on September 16, 2009 at 6:54 PM
+1
(And I won’t reiterate that.)
profitsbeard on September 16, 2009 at 6:55 PM
People should not have to pledge allegiance to anything, especially a government.
Also the pledge is about a country and a government that stands for liberty and justice for all. Isn’t that an oxymoron, when has a government ever stood for liberty and/or justice for all? The government in the pledge does not exist, its like pledging allegiance to Santa Claus.
LevStrauss on September 16, 2009 at 6:56 PM
There is also no such thing as prayer in school anymore, so you are right, it is a terrible analogy.
Cindy Munford on September 16, 2009 at 6:57 PM
MSNBC Van De Heuval (sp) Carter is the greatest living ex president
Calling Bill Clinton
faraway on September 16, 2009 at 6:58 PM
No sky god snark? What’s up with that?
hillbillyjim on September 16, 2009 at 7:00 PM
Really? Deluded much? Poor Hurrican Katrina.
Cindy Munford on September 16, 2009 at 7:00 PM
Mr. President
To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan 1, 1802
MB4 on September 16, 2009 at 7:01 PM
Had a business acquaintance that was a JW, when he was “stiffed” what did he do? Go to the court house, and you can bet he was more then happy to salute the flag and honor the Judge.
right2bright on September 16, 2009 at 7:03 PM
Arthur Kirkland: Let’s get back to Justice. What is Justice? What is the intention of justice? The intention of justice is to see that the guilty people are punished and the innocent are freed. Simple, isn’t it? Only it’s not that simple. However, it is the Defense Counsel’s duty to protect the rights of the individual, as it is the Prosecution’s duty to uphold and defend the laws of the State. Justice for All. Only we have a problem here. And you know what it is? Both sides want to win. We want to win! We want to win regardless of the Truth! And we want to win regardless of Justice! Regardless of who’s guilty or innocent! WINNING is everything! That man there [indicates DA Bowers again] wants a win so badly today, it means so much to him, he is so carried away with the Prospect of winning, the IDEA, that he forgot something absolutely essential to today’s proceeding. He forgot his case. He forgot to bring it. I don’t know, I don’t see it, do you? The prosecution’s case! He’s gotta have one. Not a witness, not one piece of substantiating evidence other than the testimony of the victim herself! Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I have a case to end all cases! I have witnesses for my client, I have character references, testimonials that are backed up from here to Washington DC! I got lie detector tests that are…
DA Bowers: [jumping up again] Objection!!
Judge Rayford: Objection sustained!
Arthur Kirkland: Oh, sit down Frank!
Judge Rayford: Mr. Kirkland, you are out of order!
Arthur Kirkland: [takes a moment to gather himself] The one thing that bothered me, the one thing that stayed in my mind and I couldn’t get rid of it, that haunted me was WHY. Why would she lie? What was her motive or lying? If my client is innocent, She’s Lying. Why? Was it blackmail? No. Was it jealousy? No. Yesterday, I found out why. She doesn’t have a motive. You know why? Because she’s not lying. And ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, the prosecution is NOT gonna get that man today, No! Because I’M GONNA GET HIM! My client, the Honorable Henry T. Fleming, SHOULD GO RIGHT TO FUCKING JAIL! The sonofabitch is GUILTY!
[The jury rears back from Kirkland and total pandemonium breaks out in the courtroom]
Judge Rayford: Mr. Kirkland!!
Arthur Kirkland: That man is guilty! That man there, that man…
DA Bowers: [jumping up and staying up] Your Honor! The State demands a retrial!!
Arthur Kirkland: That man is a slime! He is a slime! If he’s allowed to go free, something really wrong is going on here!
Judge Rayford: Mr. Kirkland, you are out of order!! [gavels for quiet]
Arthur Kirkland: You’re out of order! You’re out of order! The whole trial is out of order! [indicates the gallery which is up in arms by this point] They’re out of order! That man, that sick, crazy depraved man…
Judge Rayford: All right, clear the courtroom! Clear the courtroom!
[He continues banging the gavel as the bailiffs begin to clear the court and the jury begins filing out)]
Arthur Kirkland: …raped and beat that woman there, and HE’D LIKE TO DO IT AGAIN! He told me so! [trying to get the attention of the last jurors, who are now fleeing the jury box as the bailiffs grab Kirkland] It’s just a show! It’s a show! It’s “Let’s Make a Deal!” Let’s make a deal! [The bailiffs drag Kirkland past DA Bowers' table] Hey, Frank, you wanna make a deal? I got an insane judge who likes to beat the shit out of women! Whaddaya want to give me, Frank? Three weeks probation?
DA Bowers: Dammit, Kirkland!
Judge Rayford: [gavelling crazily] Order! Order! Order in this courtroom!
Arthur Kirkland: [to his client, Fleming, who glowers at him] You sonofabitch, you! You’re supposed to stand for something! You’re supposed to protect people! But instead you fucking murder them! You killed McCullough!!
Judge Rayford: [continuing to gavel] I’ve had enough! Get him out of here!! [The bailiffs are now carrying Kirkland out the doors]
Arthur Kirkland: You killed him! Hold it! Hold it! I just completed my opening statement!!
MadisonConservative on September 16, 2009 at 7:04 PM
Agreed. By second grade, it was hollow.
Then again, so was the morning prayer.
MadisonConservative on September 16, 2009 at 7:06 PM
These folks will not be happy until there is NO flag and No United States of America.
mobydutch on September 16, 2009 at 7:06 PM
By what authority do you propose to make children participate in a lecture about not having to participate in the Pledge?
Chris_Balsz on September 16, 2009 at 7:06 PM
Allah, by the way, Miranda-type arguments don’t apply to kids for the same reason that kids (minors) can’t waive their rights if they get arrested. Only a guardian can waive the rights of a minor, not the minor. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be a minor!
progressoverpeace on September 16, 2009 at 7:13 PM
If my child ever refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the USA I would be at that school within minutes with two hands full of reasons why he/she should reconsider said refusal. If you have no allegiance to your OWN COUNTRY, what exactly do you have allegiance to? This lack of patriotism, cultivated in school, is what is stalinesque – gheeeeesh, this is why our country has turned into a steaming pile of dogcrap….b/c WE won’t stand up and be heard, on anything. We just don’t have the time or the will.
Ris4victory on September 16, 2009 at 7:14 PM
The in loco parentis social contract.
Which keeps kids in school in the first place, and makes them do lessons, etc.
A teachable moment about freedom, essentially, in an quasi-unfree environment.
All knowledge gained is rife with paradox.
profitsbeard on September 16, 2009 at 7:17 PM
But if you refuse to broadcast King Hussein’s speech, you’ll get fired.
Ronnie on September 16, 2009 at 7:21 PM
Then let them do the Pledge as instructed.
Chris_Balsz on September 16, 2009 at 7:29 PM
“Under God” is much less offensive compared to the portions I discussed elsewhere.
LevStrauss on September 16, 2009 at 7:30 PM
About the only thing I would see as worthy of pledging allegiance to would be the concept of the individual, and my birthright to live as how I see fit so long as I do not infringe on the rights of others, and in pledging this allegiance I affirm my duty to protect my rights and the rights of others from the state, because this state, just as any state over time has stood the elimination of those rights for the sake of power.
LevStrauss on September 16, 2009 at 7:35 PM
Hey, let’s go ahead and make it optional for the citizenship test too. And how about the oath of office? Really, it’s so robotic hearing it every four years.
Ronnie on September 16, 2009 at 7:38 PM
No Pledge? No problem. Just don’t call on God or the United States of America to bail you out when you need help. Well, except maybe those who pledge allegiance to you.
/
Christien on September 16, 2009 at 7:40 PM
Because the cultural left wants to transform our society into one in which all of those activities are protected and considered “normal” and “healthy.” So, they start indoctrinating children and work their way up.
Loxodonta on September 16, 2009 at 7:43 PM
Meh. In junior high I was an atheist. I said the pledge every day anyway. In high school I was an agnostic. (I graduated in ’69.) I’d say the pledge every other day. Even when I didn’t, however, I had enough respect for the flag and the pledge that I stood anyway. I would have been subject to detention otherwise, but that threat never meant anything to me. Really, that’s all I ask today as a Bible-believing libertarian-conservative. What’s the big deal?
sondiehl on September 16, 2009 at 7:58 PM
If they opt out of the pledge they can also opt out their asses from this country IMO.
F15Mech on September 16, 2009 at 8:10 PM
So at what age did you “wake up?” Just wondering?
F15Mech on September 16, 2009 at 8:21 PM
I’m in agreement with many of you that it’s no big deal if kids don’t have to pledge. Forcing them is very creepily reminiscent of a Communist activity. I went to a very conservative Baptist high school, and even there saying the pledge every morning was gone by the time I was a Senior. I think it’s just falling out of vogue.
dcwvu on September 16, 2009 at 8:27 PM
Here’s a clue, AP:
Unlike a school prayer, the Pledge of Allegiance is generally not regarded by the courts as an establishment of religion by the government.
skylark on September 16, 2009 at 8:29 PM
I said the pledge every day in school and can’t imagine a reason why anyone would have a problem with it, let alone a child. That’s kind of nutty.
This isn’t about kids. It’s about leftist parents acting up through their kids.
progressoverpeace on September 16, 2009 at 8:31 PM
Do you who consider it no big deal to not recite the pledge of allegiance realize WHAT that pledge actually says?
By reciting it, you’re affirming your love and loyalty to the most exceptional nation that has ever existed. It shows quite a cavalier attitude towards the country to dismiss that pledge.
Better you should give daily thanks for the privilege of citizenship.
From a very PROUD vet.
irongrampa on September 16, 2009 at 8:34 PM
“Wake up?”
If you’re referring to the prayer, I went to Catholic school. It only taught me never to be a Catholic, being that I was surrounded by mind-boggling hypocrisy from both students and faculty.
MadisonConservative on September 16, 2009 at 8:35 PM
Not much to investigate. It was founded by admitted card carrying COMMUNISTS. The ACLU’s main goal is anarchism and the destruction of America.
Jeff from WI on September 16, 2009 at 8:36 PM
That’ll keep ya busy.
ericdijon on September 16, 2009 at 8:41 PM
It’s about not worshiping false gods or graven images. I too experienced this in elementary school when a student opted out of the pledge but she wasn’t a JW. She was agnostic and didn’t feel it was fair to recite a pledge that had been raped by the religulous right (Knights of Columbus). After a classroom vote, the pledge was returned to its original state by removing the offending words, “under god”. The vote? Yes, there were several objectors who were summarily beaten at recess….”Good News” messengers I believe.
Good4Onan on September 16, 2009 at 8:58 PM
If I’ve said it once I’ve said it a million times:
A nation that cannot make it’s young to pledge allegiance to it’s own nation is one whose population will have increasingly less loyalty toward as time goes on.
I said the pledge almost daily when I was a schoolchild…that is, when I attended a private Christian school.
For some odd reason when I moved to public school we didn’t do that anymore, I wonder why?
And to add insult to injury my old school shut down very soon after for lack of funds.
Dark-Star on September 16, 2009 at 9:28 PM
At the risk of being redundant: Reason number 5,997 not to send your kids to public school…..I detest that those crap holes even exist.
di butler on September 16, 2009 at 9:37 PM
It’s not the Affirmation of Allegiance, or a Reminder, or Thanks, or anything other than a Pledge. It’s not a poem or a song or anthem. The word pledge means something, and too many people don’t know what that is. Repeating a binding promise is wrong, unless you didn’t mean it the first time. Asking someone to repeat an oath implies dishonor.
exception on September 16, 2009 at 10:06 PM
I remember in parachocial school if you tried any funny business during the pledge, you got Sister’s cane. I wish all young students could know this form of coercion, it built character.
paulsur on September 16, 2009 at 10:15 PM
Well, for once, this one’s right up my alley. As a former public-school teacher, I have a battle-tested opinion.
This is a trickier subject than one might think. Forcing students to recite the pledge does run quite close to the ideal of freedom that underwrote the founding of the nation.
I will not attempt to offer a definitive opinion. All I can offer is how it worked out in a high-school classroom:
I had two back-row students (who, yes, do usually fit one of a small number of molds, of divers quality) who decided one week that they would not stand and instead chat and giggle during the morning pledge of allegiance.
The first day, I went up to them in a low-key manner and explained that they need to stand and recite the pledge off allegiance, and that it was important.
The second day they did it I gave them “punish work,” a stupid but blunt tactic of making them write a couple pages, long-hand (my choices were usually of vignettes involving Ronald Reagan or about terrorist atrocities or about people in poor countries with no education who were starving).
The third day I nearly blew my stack. I used a very adult, in-their-face voice and told them that for the sake of the kids fighting and dying in Iraq, for that flag they by God would stand, even if they didn’t recite the pledge.
The fourth day they sat and giggled I threw them out on the spot and told the Dean of Students that, they were not welcome again in the class until a parental conference occurred.
The fifth day their sports coach, who was their same color, visited me and told me to stop reporting them, and that she would make them run laps instead.
The following Monday, the two girls stood, though they didn’t speak.
To this day, I still am not quite sure how right or wrong I was.
Again, it’s a tough issue, if you think about it.
cane_loader on September 16, 2009 at 10:17 PM
You see, I had to balance the American aspiration toward freedom of speech, and freedom of non-speech, and the fact that chattering during a solemn (though, of course, not to high-school students) pledge had disruptive potential to the conduction of class.
This is where the thin edge lies.
I can’t force them to be patriotic. But when they interrupt the expression of others’ patriotism, ESPCIALLY as minors, I think I am somewhere near correct.
cane_loader on September 16, 2009 at 10:29 PM
TXus at 6:24 pm:
That pledge has the pseky “under God” thing (paraphrase)
——–
Yes, that one had me for a bit. But then I decided that if during my tenure the “under God” phrase were to be struck down,” I would simply add the word “founded” before the preceding quotation, and go on as I was, and let them sue me.
cane_loader on September 16, 2009 at 10:33 PM
HIGH IRONY ALERT:
The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Socialist minister from Boston, and was introduced into the classroom by a popular children’s magazine of the time.
The goal was to put a flag in every classroom in America to propagandize the socialist vision of Liberty and Justice for all.
cadetwithchips2 on September 16, 2009 at 10:35 PM
Children should not have to say the pledge of allegiance nor should be forced to do it. That being said, the whole “Miranda warning” idea is stupid.
DanStark on September 16, 2009 at 10:42 PM
My elementary school told all the students they could opt out of the Pledge of Allegiance 41 years ago. Nobody did.
Haiku Guy on September 16, 2009 at 10:56 PM
Well, as a patriot and a teacher, I say again that it is a tough issue.
Here’s the problem for teachers:
The kids are minors. They are entrusted to the school and to the teachers in loco parentis for the furtherment of their education. Now remember that public schools were formed by and large, state by state, for the preeminent purpose of keeping urchins off the street back in the long-ago day.
To some extent, the state has an interest (mostly vested, nowadays) in ensuring that some modicum of loyalty to the flag is administered at least as a fleeting ointment to these kids’ lives.
Now think. If you had to call at night the chaotic dwellings of some of the young unwed mothers of the chaotic kids I taught, is it in our nation’s best interest to inculcate a small amount of pledging into their lives, in return for that public schooling which ostensibly is to help them make more money as adults?
If not, then leave them to the street and to jail.
Here is where (absent the rebounding of the American ghetto family), in loco parentis may be one of the only things trying to help the kids.
And if I don’t require them to at least stand for the flag salute, then maybe no one ever will. And then where will we be?….
cane_loader on September 16, 2009 at 11:05 PM
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