Video: Glenn Beck on Christianity, atheism, and liberty

posted at 5:51 pm on September 12, 2009 by Allahpundit

He does less talking here than his guests, actually, but the clip’s obligatory after the food fight in last night’s 9/12 Project thread. Two noteworthy statements by GB. One: He reminds Randian atheist Yaron Brook that the country was founded on the idea of religious (and irreligious) coexistence, which is certainly true and which would have made a fine “core principle” for that libertarian Project of his in lieu of the one declaring God “the center of my life.” Two: A few minutes earlier, he tells the Christian minister that “we must restore God in his rightful place because these rights belong to him.” What he means by “rightful place” is unclear — prayer in public schools or something more? — but the canard about divine rights is an ancient atheist pet peeve. Good luck getting God to protect your rights when they’re being trampled on, and better luck in trying to form a consensus between left and right on precisely which rights “belong to him” and what that means in practice. Do I have a right to be cared for when I’m sick? I say no, but I don’t think it’s nutty that a socialist might read Biblical passages about doing unto others and being my brother’s keeper and conclude otherwise. Watch Brook for more on that, although it’s nothing you haven’t heard before.

As for the minister, it sounds like he’s suggesting ObamaCare is actually a Darwinist (or rather, social Darwinist) plot by godless elites to thin the herd of baby boomers, but I might be misunderstanding him.

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RoF,

I’m just popping out to Evening Mass but I will be back in an hour and will answer your question then.

aengus on September 13, 2009 at 1:57 PM

That is probably because Laveyan Satanism is not the religious worship of Satan but an atheistic mocking of religion.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 1:33 PM

QFT!
Levayan Satanism is hardly Satanic. Hell it is a parody of Christianity, down to saying Christian prayers backwards.

And Wicca is hardly Witchcraft, more like an excuse to dance naked around a maypole and allow women to have some semblance of participation in religion.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 1:58 PM

Theologists have the luxury of saying something like, “because God loves us,” but that strikes me as a pretty vacuous way of explaining things.

RightOFLeft on September 13, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Wrong. You are building a straw man.

These answers are right here and available for you but you are just not listening and are too spiritually dead to understand even if you heard our explanations.

But if we are lazy and negligent, and if we do not cleanse ourselves from the Passions which defile us, blinding our intellect and so preventing us from seeing the inner nature of these realities more clearly than the sun, let us blame ourselves and let us not deny the indwelling of Grace.

St Maximus the Confessor from the Philokalia

Reality is the Holy Trinity in hypostasis.

When the Sun rises and casts it’s light on the world, it reveals both itself and the things it illumines. Similarly, when the Sun of righteousness rises in the pure intellect, He reveals both Himself and the inner principles of all that has been and will be brought into existence by Him.

St Maximus the Confessor from the Philokalia volume Two 6th century

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 1:58 PM

Theologists have the luxury of saying something like, “because God loves us,” but that strikes me as a pretty vacuous way of explaining things.

RightOFLeft on September 13, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Wrong. You are building a straw man.

These answers are right here and available for you but you are just not listening and are too spiritually dead to understand even if you heard our explanations.

But if we are lazy and negligent, and if we do not cleanse ourselves from the Passions which defile us, blinding our intellect and so preventing us from seeing the inner nature of these realities more clearly than the sun, let us blame ourselves and let us not deny the indwelling of Grace.

St Maximus the Confessor from the Philokalia

Reality is the Holy Trinity in hypostasis.

When the Sun rises and casts it’s light on the world, it reveals both itself and the things it illumines. Similarly, when the Sun of righteousness rises in the pure intellect, He reveals both Himself and the inner principles of all that has been and will be brought into existence by Him.

St Maximus the Confessor from the Philokalia volume Two 6th century

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 1:58 PM

aengus on September 13, 2009 at 1:46 PM

Stupid me! I didn’t mean science as a discipline, I meant the science of evolution. If someone were to point to the effects of evolution, in terms of fitness, and use those facts to beat down on a particular group, they are abusing the scientific data for their own purposes.

Whether someone does, or does not, mistreat a particular race, it has no bearing on the validity of the scientific data, and we should never censor learning for fear of misuse.

OldEnglish on September 13, 2009 at 2:02 PM

So what? One fairy tale is as valid as another.

OldEnglish on September 13, 2009 at 1:27 PM

The difference is Orthodox Christianity is the religion of the real God and your religion is a reactionary fairytale.

But to humor you let’s take your statement at face value to show you how ridiculous you sound.

First please explain to me how the human sacrifices of satanism is even remotely comparable to the unselfish love and charity of Christianity?

Look at the fruits of a devout and practicing satanist and the fruits of a devout and practicing Orthodox Christian.

That is probably because Laveyan Satanism is not the religious worship of Satan but an atheistic mocking of religion.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 1:33 PM

yeah right,black masses where they steal the eucharist and perform black masses over it and human sacrifices and witchcraft against people are “atheistic mocking of religion”??

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 2:16 PM

OldEnglish on September 13, 2009 at 11:36 AM

This is true, but regardless, the fact remains a bunch of people imagine they’ll get rid of racism by ignoring race.

Ryan Gandy on September 13, 2009 at 2:16 PM

But history supports me here. MLK Jr. was killed in Memphis. George Wallace stood in front of a classroom in Alabama. The three-fifths compromise was meant to appease the Southern states. The church bombings, the confederate flags, the dixiecrats, Robert Byrd — none of that crap happened in biology labs. It happened in the bible belt. Sorry. If it makes you feel any better (and I don’t see why it should) it’s as much my history as yours as an American.

RightOFLeft on September 13, 2009 at 1:22 PM

The problem is that the first part of the history you tell us about deals with Government Racism – i.e. racism that took hold in law or the application of law itself. Secondly, I’ve never quite understood how the Confederate flag was blatantly racist… As a Yankee, I find it offensive when misused, but not for the Racial Implications but because it of the war that was fought. That said, I think it’s fair to say our current mainstream history of the Civil War may be quite biased. In many ways, those on the right may have found a lot of common ground with Southern State Righters – versus some of the large governmenters to the North… It’s not so black and white of an issue.

Finally, I’d say history would support that there were a lot of educated racists in the early 1900′s in such Progressive havens such as Madison, WI.

Upstater85 on September 13, 2009 at 2:20 PM

yeah right,black masses where they steal the eucharist and perform black masses over it and human sacrifices and witchcraft against people are “atheistic mocking of religion”??

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 2:16 PM

ROFLMAO! You are so stereotypical.

You want to know what Levayan Satanism is all about? Self improvement, life affirmation and a certain discrimination. It is very conservative in some places notably when it comes to personal comportment but liberal in others such as attitudes toward sexuality and difference.

The biggest Sin a Levayan Satanist could do is worship the Devil because then they’d be merely the opposite of a life-denying Christian. They have no desire to be like Christians in any way shape or form, let alone the opposite.

They are their own God. Independence is a disease like Alcoholism.

And Gardnerian Wicca is not what you call it. Please take off the bible blinders you got on. At the very base Gardnerian Wicca is the desire to worship Life. Wiccan magic causes the same changes in brain state that Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist prayers cause.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 2:29 PM

Black Mass

Here is a black mass for you:

The usual assumption is that the Satanic ceremony or service is always called a black mass. A black mass is not the magical ceremony practiced by Satanists. The Satanist would only employ the use of a black mass as a form of psychodrama. Furthermore, a black mass does not necessarily imply that the performers of such are Satanists. A black mass is essentially a parody of the religious service of the Roman Catholic Church, but can be loosely applied to a satire on any religious ceremony.

I didn’t know Parody was Satanic.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 2:37 PM

They are their own God.

And that’s the big lie.

An honest assessment of oneself immediately disproves this.

We are not God by nature.

In Orthodox Christianity we are DEIFIED by overcoming the Passions and PARTICIPATING in the Divine Energies of God.

We are gods by Grace and this is made possible by the Incarnate Logos,the second person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus Christ who became incarnate as a man, thus deifying humanity and allowing humanity the ability to be healed of our slavery to the Passions and sin,strengthening us to be able to be permanent temples of the Holy Spirit of God.

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 2:48 PM

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 2:48 PM

Yes, we know your stance…

…Holger was pointing out that they aren’t Satanists in your sense of the word…

Upstater85 on September 13, 2009 at 2:51 PM

You frothing desire to “prove” evolution is racist shows a lack of knowledge on the actual theory. Race is not even considered to be a valid construct in modern biology, as I have explained ad nauseum. If race does not exist, each individual organism has advantages over the other. It just depends on what advantage will allow them to suceed most often in their environment. Just as a hound can smell better but is not as fast as a greyhound.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 1:46 PM

again with the ‘you’re ignorant’ stuff…typical darwiniac lines…you’re parroting talking points…I dare say I know the theory better than you…better than most of the brain-dead darwiniacs I’ve encountered…

you can ‘explain’ all you want…but who are you? do you speak for evolution?? are you a published, world-renowned biologist like Watson?? hmmmm????

and your own writing shows the evolutionary basis for racism…you just don’t get it…talk about ignorance…or willfull blindness…

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:08 PM

You are believing a lie dude. Indigenous religious sites in the New World and the Old World survive despite the attempts to destroy them. This is why countless churches lay on what were Pagan holy grounds, both in Europe and the New World.

how did they do that?? did some pagan diety come down and protect them??? I mean seriously if the conquerors…whoever they maybe, want to destroy something…like the romans with jerusalem…its destroyed.

The only reason why any knowledge exists of the Religion of the Germans or Celts is because you Christians weren’t thorough enough and because a few good souls decided it was wrong to destroy it, thus they archived it.

Christians didn’t destroy the Pyramids at Giza because the Egyptians built big. But they did try to destroy the Parthenon.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 1:54 PM

you are a serious wacko.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:09 PM

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 2:48 PM

No, the honest assessment is that your conception of God is dead. His utility died when we learned more about ourselves and our world, when we improved ourselves faster and quicker, than we ever did with ‘Revelations’ from ‘Prophets’.

This is the same reason why the Horseman known as Pestilence retired when Pennicilin was invented.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 3:14 PM

You should be very very careful regarding your practice and endorsement of satanism. There is a lot more happening than you realize. Practicioners always end up with severe cases of demonic possession and bondage,which often leads to serial murder and many, many other worse atrocities.

It is the opposite of all forms of psychological healthiness.

You should leave that behind you immediately and find an Orthodox Priest as soon as possible. He is the only one who will be able to help you and perform excorcisms over you.
You may think this is some big joke but it is serious business that you are involved in.

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 3:17 PM

you are a serious wacko.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:09 PM

I am not the one arguing that early missionaries upto the 1600s were magnanimous.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 3:24 PM

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:08 PM

Amazing…

You have repreatedly and deliberately misrepresented the theory, that is not “knowing” the theory better. That is cherry picking whatever fits the notion you already had, namely that evolution is somehow racist. In doing so, you have completely ignored vast tract of thought and experiment to come to you conclusion. The only offerings you really have is the racist tendencies of some of its original thikers and the blatherings of sick human being who have used a scientific theory for their own murderous ends.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:24 PM

how did they do that?? did some pagan diety come down and protect them??? I mean seriously if the conquerors…whoever they maybe, want to destroy something…like the romans with jerusalem…its destroyed.

Interesting that you bring up Jesusalem, a former pagan center of worship.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:25 PM

You have repreatedly and deliberately misrepresented the theory, that is not “knowing” the theory better. That

now you’re lying..how have I ‘misrepresented’ evolution?? hmmm?? lets see what ya got…

That is cherry picking whatever fits the notion you already had, namely that evolution is somehow racist. In doing so, you have completely ignored vast tract of thought and experiment to come to you conclusion

really now?? I’ve posted voluminous sources, from darwinists themselves, who admit the theory is racist…you have denied it…as if you are somehow the authority on evolution and what YOU say goes…in other words…your opinion, and thats really all it is…is worthless…you can’t back up your opinion.

The only offerings you really have is the racist tendencies of some of its original thikers and the blatherings of sick human being who have used a scientific theory for their own murderous ends.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:24 PM

and you’ve offered??? nothing

as I said evolution is implicitly racist…some races have to be more *FIT* than others…thus the implicit racism…you are unable to deny that…you have to go on and build straw men…and talk about racist creationists…blahblahablahablah…typical darwiniac.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:30 PM

yes of course Darwin is good holy and righteous, and his theory is holy, pure, and good!!!

all you’ve proven squiddy is that evolution is a religion.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:31 PM

Hi, I’m back.

RoF:

First, with a question — how are we to refute the Islamic radicals that justify their cruelty as the will of God?

Only by arguing that Islam is false. Now if we started by accepting the philosophical premises of Islam (as many accept the philosophical premises of Darwinism) that would be impossible but luckily we (Christians and atheists) don’t. Unfortunately Muslims may use violence against anyone who tries to examine the Koran but that is a separate issue – one of intimidation.

OE:

If someone were to point to the effects of evolution, in terms of fitness, and use those facts to beat down on a particular group, they are abusing the scientific data for their own purposes.

Ah, now I see what you mean. Yes, I agree that would be an abuse.

aengus on September 13, 2009 at 3:34 PM

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:30 PM

I have offered you that the modern theory has no construct for race, you have very little to show from modern science except for a series of widely panned biological theories such as eugenics.

And I have repeated ad nauseum that since there is no race in modern biology, one race can not be more “fit” to suvive than another. Individuals however can be, but to deny that some individuals are more equiped to survive in certain environments is to deny the nose on your face.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:35 PM

yes of course Darwin is good holy and righteous, and his theory is holy, pure, and good!!!

all you’ve proven squiddy is that evolution is a religion.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:31 PM

Never said anything of the sort. It certainly is not my religion.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:36 PM

I have offered you that the modern theory has no construct for race, you have very little to show from modern science except for a series of widely panned biological theories such as eugenics.

And I have repeated ad nauseum that since there is no race in modern biology, one race can not be more “fit” to suvive than another. Individuals however can be, but to deny that some individuals are more equiped to survive in certain environments is to deny the nose on your face.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:35 PM

widely panned?? by who??? have you seen obama’s science advisor???

oh please…’you have repeated’ so what??? again ya got nothing to back up your opinion…either you’re too ignorant to do any research, you don’t know how, or you can’t find anything to back up your opinion.

try going to college…writing a research paper…

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:40 PM

Never said anything of the sort. It certainly is not my religion.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:36 PM

your denial of the obvious, that even darwinists admit…and have published their admissions….mean that you can see no wrong in your beloved theory…its your faith….and like any good imam, you can’t stand anything that denies your faith…

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:41 PM

And I have repeated ad nauseum that since there is no race in modern biology, one race can not be more “fit” to suvive than another. Individuals however can be, but to deny that some individuals are more equiped to survive in certain environments is to deny the nose on your face.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:35 PM

Err yes and no.

First, it’s hard to know what all modern biologists are thinking in their heads. Of course, the beliefs of one doesn’t necessarily lead to a scientific consensus.

Secondly, what is the definition of survival? Are we talking long term survival, comfortable survival, &c. But if we in fact that we are all one race, then either the whole race survives or it doesn’t… I find it hard to believe that all Scientists accept that we are one race…

Upstater85 on September 13, 2009 at 3:41 PM

and planned parenthood…that organizaation born out of racist darwinist eugenics is going strong…even accepting donations from people for the purpose of getting rid of black people…oh yeah….

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:43 PM

It is the opposite of all forms of psychological healthiness.

You should leave that behind you immediately and find an Orthodox Priest as soon as possible. He is the only one who will be able to help you and perform excorcisms over you.
You may think this is some big joke but it is serious business that you are involved in.

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 3:17 PM

I do not subscribe to Parody, neither should you. Before you make statements concerning other religions or faiths, even philosophies such as Ayn Rand’s Objectivism, you should actually delve deep instead of getting all your research from Jack Chick tracts.

You have every right to be a Christian. But you have no right to spread misinformation and propaganda about other Religions which you patently are.

I know a few Satanists but multiple neopagans ranging from Asatru to Wicca. You are so wrong on this it is not even funny. You claim Wiccans practice animal sacrifice, it violates the Wiccan Rede To Do No Harm.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 3:51 PM

Secondly, what is the definition of survival? Are we talking long term survival, comfortable survival, &c. But if we in fact that we are all one race, then either the whole race survives or it doesn’t… I find it hard to believe that all Scientists accept that we are one race…

Upstater85 on September 13, 2009 at 3:41 PM

I think this story from Scientific American was the first real discussion that I had ever seen on the topic of “race” not really being a clear biological construct.

As far as survival, there is different levels of “fitness”, certainly neandertal man had alot of advantages against Homs Sapiens, but they eventually lost because Homo Sapiens succeeded more than them.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:51 PM

I am not the one arguing that early missionaries upto the 1600s were magnanimous.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 3:24 PM

compared to your ‘heros’ of atheism and evolution they sure were….

darwinism/marxism…have cost the lives of hundres of millions of people in the last century…every time we get such a governemnt, we end up in slavery…

laughable.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:53 PM

how did they do that?? did some pagan diety come down and protect them??? I mean seriously if the conquerors…whoever they maybe, want to destroy something…like the romans with jerusalem…its destroyed.

Interesting that you bring up Jesusalem, a former pagan center of worship.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:25 PM

Every time Jerusalem was destroyed was because God allowed it.

The last time was because the hebrews rejected the Messiah(God in the flesh,Jesus Christ)and made Him their enemy.

This is why judaism died and why they no longer have the Temple or the Ark of the Covenant etc.

Christ God Himself said that He would take the kingdom away from them and give it us who will produce fruit(the Orthodox Church) and it happened. Matthew 21:43

Christ God Himself said He would destroy their temple within 40 years and it happened.

The Orthodox Church is israel the people of God. We are the only surviving inheritors of pre-Christ judaism and we have survived 2,000 years of Apostolic succession and preservation of the Correct doctrine and we will never be destroyed.

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 3:56 PM

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 3:53 PM

You completely misrepresent what I say. They are not my heroes as I pray to the Gods someone like Torquemeda is not your hero.

I am not a Darwisnist though I believe evolution best explains our origins. How else can you explain why we share 98.7 percent genetic material with Chimpanzees without diving into the Solipsism of blaming God.

I point to the crimes of Religion to say simply ‘Your hands aren’t exactly pristine!” and you jump to the conclusion that aha! I must be a communist or National Socialist.

You claim Humanity came from Dust. I say you are wrong, the Three Brothers of Bor created us from Trees.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 3:58 PM

Gotta go for a bit.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 3:59 PM

This is why judaism died and why they no longer have the Temple or the Ark of the Covenant etc

I am pretty sure we are still here, friend.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 4:02 PM

Christ God Himself said He would destroy their temple within 40 years and it happened.

MaximusConfessor on September 13, 2009 at 3:56 PM

I am pretty sure that it is because they were written after the first uprising.

I am glad you somehow think you gentiles are somehow the heirs to the Jews.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 4:05 PM

I am not a Darwisnist though I believe evolution best explains our origins. How else can you explain why we share 98.7 percent genetic material with Chimpanzees without diving into the Solipsism of blaming God.

of course a good designer would NEVER reuse parts…like the eye in a squid or a human….oh no, thats ‘convergent evolution’ sigh…

and whats really funny…is most darwinists have learned (the hard way) to deny that evolution has ANHYTHING to do with origins…too funny….

I point to the crimes of Religion to say simply ‘Your hands aren’t exactly pristine!” and you jump to the conclusion that aha! I must be a communist or National Socialist.

You claim Humanity came from Dust. I say you are wrong, the Three Brothers of Bor created us from Trees.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 3:58 PM

given your rather laughable defense of atheism by ascribing all these horrors to religion…and some of them were just laughable…like the golden horde…as if the mongol invasion had anything to do with religion….and the crusades…oh yeah its terrible to defend yourself from a muslim invasion…they should have just submitted…as their descendants are doing…

and then the inquisition…you post the typical darwiniac drivel….

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 4:05 PM

I think this story from Scientific American was the first real discussion that I had ever seen on the topic of “race” not really being a clear biological construct.

As far as survival, there is different levels of “fitness”, certainly neandertal man had alot of advantages against Homs Sapiens, but they eventually lost because Homo Sapiens succeeded more than them.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 3:51 PM

Oh, I’m not talking about the fitness of cavemen, I’m talking about about “fitness” of the current group of humans on this green earth.

Mental Fitness
Athletic Fitness

Just to name a few. There is no denying that different groups of people (that we often classify via race) have their different strengths and weaknesses. I’d say that there are a good deal of biologists that take this as fact, but unfortunately given the PC culture we live in, these actual “scientific” discussions will not be had…

They should be had now; however when they do happen (which will not be now), I’m afraid the discussion could turn more sinister…

There will be those in the sciences that will objectively approach the subject… then there will be the Obama-appointee-types that will simply want to “solve” things… whatever that means.

Upstater85 on September 13, 2009 at 4:12 PM

Just to name a few. There is no denying that different groups of people (that we often classify via race) have their different strengths and weaknesses. I’d say that there are a good deal of biologists that take this as fact, but unfortunately given the PC culture we live in, these actual “scientific” discussions will not be had…

I agree with that. I think that the lines are becoming more blurred however. Take African Americans for instance, blacks in America have significant amounts of genetic material from Anglos and Hispanics as well. Thus they do not possess the all of the advantages of their African brethren.

Furthermore those we consider to be “Chicanos” are almost a completely mixed group of native and spanish blood.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 4:18 PM

Mental Fitness
Athletic Fitness

Just to name a few. There is no denying that different groups of people (that we often classify via race) have their different strengths and weaknesses. I’d say that there are a good deal of biologists that take this as fact, but unfortunately given the PC culture we live in, these actual “scientific” discussions will not be had…

The problem is, there are influences upon influences stacked from the environment as well as genetics, and it has never been clear that any particular race suffers from inferior mental strengths overall.

This type of thinking was soundly smacked down in the 20th century.

Black Yoshi on September 13, 2009 at 4:33 PM

given your rather laughable defense of atheism by ascribing all these horrors to religion…and some of them were just laughable…like the golden horde…as if the mongol invasion had anything to do with religion….and the crusades…oh yeah its terrible to defend yourself from a muslim invasion…they should have just submitted…as their descendants are doing…

and then the inquisition…you post the typical darwiniac drivel….

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 4:05 PM

Where oh where did I defend the crimes of Atheist ideologies. Oh, wait, I never did. Unless you think not defending Religious atrocity is defending Atheist atrocity.

You are patently false and disengenous. And where did I claim to be a Darwinist? Oh wait, I didn’t. Nor did I say anything in support of Eugenics practice. I merely stated it is the best theory, unlike the various retreads of religious orthodoxy.

Are you actually defending the things that happened in the Crusades. Care to defend the Rape of Nanking? Mao’s Cultural Revolution?

You think there was some great and noble undertaking there?

“When the pagans had been overcome, our men seized great numbers, both men and women, either killing them or keeping them captive, as they wished.”

In this temple 10,000 were killed. Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared”.

Oh Christ We Adore Thee! Deus Vult! Workers of the World Unite! Sieg Heil! Inshallah! Allahu Akbar!

Mao, Hitler and Stalin were able to rack up more confirmed kills, that is the only difference.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 5:56 PM

I hate to break the news, but unless you believe in God, your basic civil rights means nothing. The idea is that these rights, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness (or life, libery, and property as outlined in the constitution) are rights FROM God. They are inalienable. They cannot even be given to you from govt, as they’re inherent rights to all humans that you should have just for being a member of mankind.

An atheist is stuck in an odd place, if you ask me. They’re forced to conclude that their rights are merely trivial rights that no higher power has given them. All your rights are chosen by a changing group of leaders.

Then again, if you’re an atheist, you believe we’re all here via a series of random cancers (cancer is a mutation in the cell) that resulted from blind, uncaring, pointless mechanisms. If I believed that about myself, my family, and my friends, I don’t see why I would care about much of anything.

There are far too many logical inconsistencies to even grasp in my opinion.

TheBlueSite on September 13, 2009 at 5:59 PM

Where oh where did I defend the crimes of Atheist ideologies. Oh, wait, I never did. Unless you think not defending Religious atrocity is defending Atheist atrocity.

oh yea you are just the noble defender of truth, liberty, reason…right…lets review…

Actually they can. You’ll be amazed at the madness of the social conservatives.

Holger on September 12, 2009 at 9:00 PM

Its the followers you gotta be concerned about.

Holger on September 12, 2009 at 9:02 PM

Big Government is out for Big Church?

Sorry, I got no desire to replace one set of despots for other despots that are just as bad.

Holger on September 12, 2009 at 9:17 PM

this is laughable BS….then you go on…..

Most of the most horrible crimes against humanity were committed by atheist led communist regimes
You are telling a half truth. Previous to the enlightenment, crimes against humanity were religious and political based.

- Spanish Inquisition
- Witch Hunts
- Muslim Conquest
- Christian Conquest
- Mongol conquest

And religious based crimes against humanity are still going on.

this is just laughable….to compare 2,000 deaths or so to the 2 MILLION in Pol Pot’s killing fields for example..is just ludicrous….you are trying to excuse what the atheists have done by saying how bad the EVIL CHURCH is…its stupid beyond belief…but no surprise coming from a moron like you.

And where did I claim to be a Darwinist? Oh wait, I didn’t. Nor did I say anything in support of Eugenics practice. I merely stated it is the best theory, unlike the various retreads of religious orthodoxy.

newsflash: that means you are a darwinist..duhhh..and its not even a good theory…ok, tell me the mutations, IN ORDER, that led to the eye….you can’t, but you take it on FAITH…because thats all evolution is…atheistic faith.

Are you actually defending the things that happened in the Crusades.

oh absolutely, just like I would defend our nuking of japan..the crusades were a reaction to the INVASION OF EUROPE by the muslims…did you forget that happened??? hmmmmm?? and if we didn’t have the crusades…you’d have a beard..and be bending over towards mecca…or you’d be dead.

you are a typical disengenuous atheist moron.

get a clue.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 6:09 PM

An atheist is stuck in an odd place, if you ask me. They’re forced to conclude that their rights are merely trivial rights that no higher power has given them. All your rights are chosen by a changing group of leaders.

Nope. Read your John Stuart Mills.

Then again, if you’re an atheist, you believe we’re all here via a series of random cancers

Wrong. Atheism merely states there is no such thing as God. It does not flow that no God equals no right or wrong, no morality, no natural state of liberty or a state of Nihilism.

I don’t see why I would care about much of anything.

Do you only value things because God exists? You are in an equally bad state. On your side all value comes from God, on their side there is no value to enjoy.

You are confusing Atheism with Nihilism. Atheism is not necessarily Nihilist nor is Nihilism inherently Atheist.

We can create our own Value.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 6:14 PM

Wrong. Atheism merely states there is no such thing as God. It does not flow that no God equals no right or wrong, no morality, no natural state of liberty or a state of Nihilism.

yes it does…and we’ve seen it over and over and over again, in atheist societies…starting with the TERROR in france…you atheists like to forget history…except those terrible atrocities the church did…:rolleyes;

We can create our own Value.

just like stalin did.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 6:18 PM

. On your side all value comes from God,

everything comes from God…including your next breath…its a gift.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 6:19 PM

you are a typical disengenuous atheist moron.

get a clue.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 6:09 PM

Oh funny. Calling me an Atheist. When you got no proof of my religious leanings other than argument I am half interested in, arguing positions I only half believe. But I think I got you pegged down correctly.

T-H-E-O-C-R-A-T. Just as bad as D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T.

However, for the sake of argument I will unvail my religion. When I was 21 after a long, involved and passionate study of Philosophy I realized my nominal Christianity was a joke and not for me, it left me feeling bad like bad mexican. I also realized since I cannot prove religious claims and if there is a God, that more than likely I would choose the wrong religion so the only thing that mattered in the grand scheme of things was how I feel about the choices I make. I was not going to live my life according to Pascal’s Wager, if I did I would’ve converted to Islam. And if there is no such thing as God, it doesn’t matter what I believe anyway as I’ll be worm-food. I also know religion does not mesh with reality 100 percent.

I am unbound by religious orthodoxy and can easily seperate from my religion for the sake of argument. Thus I can entertain a thought very easily and discard it just as easily.

I had a conversion event and accepted the Religion of my pre-Christian German forefathers. I wear Mjollnr around my neck and occasionally an Icelandic Cross. I was not truly happy until I converted, told my ancestors and swore my life to my Gods.

Before you go off, Heathenism is a lot like Conservative Christianity except for Jesus and the psychologically unhealthy concept of Sin. Family oriented, discipline, restraint and wisdom. It is naturally very capitalist and libertarian.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 6:34 PM

T-H-E-O-C-R-A-T. Just as bad as D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T.

laughable…the only theocrats you have to worry about are the muslims…but you don’t seem too concerned about them…no surprise there…

I am unbound by religious orthodoxy and can easily seperate from my religion for the sake of argument. Thus I can entertain a thought very easily and discard it just as easily.

oh yes you are floating serenely above it all..unencumbered by the hindrances that drag the rest of po dumb mortals down…please…its rather obvious you’re a run-of-the-mill atheist…typical really.

you obviously have an axe to grind against christianity…but you know, who cares? you and every other atheist…good luck winning that battle…I know you think you’ve disproven christianity, and don’t understand why anyone else could be so stupid to believe it…sigh…you must be young, we’ve heard it all before, and its rather boring….

and thats ultimately what atheism is…boring…it would be fine if it didn’t have such terrible consequences for the world…the 2 most pernicious ideas of the 19th century…communism/darwinism…both born out of atheism…and have cost the lives of hundreds of millions and enslaved billiions more..

and you dare complain about the ‘horrors’ of theocracy….check the mirror.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 6:41 PM

Oh, also Rawls extrapolates on John Stuart Mills, through the Original Position and the people negotiating their way into a social contract.

The one down side is that Rawls and Mills allows situational constraints on Liberty, of course according to the situation constraints upon liberty can be the more moral option.

A situation would be Abraham Lincoln suspending HAbeas Corpus.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 6:45 PM

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 6:41 PM

You are completely incapable of rational thought and are a total slave. People like you is why Conservativism will in the end, Fail. It amounts to the insane rantings from the insane asylum.

You are willing to sell our your Liberty and other people’s Liberty for your God. No thanks, I want my liberty.

You are like Bob Barr who went after Wiccans in the military. Liberty for me but not for thee.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 6:49 PM

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 6:41 PM
You are completely incapable of rational thought and are a total slave. People like you is why Conservativism will in the end, Fail. It amounts to the insane rantings from the insane asylum.

You are willing to sell our your Liberty and other people’s Liberty for your God. No thanks, I want my liberty.

You are like Bob Barr who went after Wiccans in the military. Liberty for me but not for thee.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 6:49 PM

yadayada…do you atheists EVER have an original thought?? seriously stupid….

oh yeah you want liberty…and the only liberty you have is from a judeo-christian viewpoint…and you’re too damned stupid to realize it….with your atheistic society all you get is slavery…

is there any atheist who has a clue and isn’t just SO impressed with themselves??? sigh….you really are a legend in your own mind…

moron.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 6:59 PM

and no moron, conservatism will never fail…because it is rooted in judeo-christianity…..in other words, its true…and what you are pushing is a lie..the big lie…we’ve heard it before, and seen what it does before…no thanks. we’re not buying the snake-oil you’re selling.

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 7:02 PM

and people like holger are why true conservatives can never work with, or ally themselves with, so-called ‘libertarians’ who want liberty for themselves..but not for any who dare disagree with them…which we see over and over and over again in atheist societies…

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 7:06 PM

I agree with that. I think that the lines are becoming more blurred however. Take African Americans for instance, blacks in America have significant amounts of genetic material from Anglos and Hispanics as well. Thus they do not possess the all of the advantages of their African brethren.

Furthermore those we consider to be “Chicanos” are almost a completely mixed group of native and spanish blood.

Squid Shark on September 13, 2009 at 4:18 PM

Well, they may mix, but it doesn’t mean they are totally mixed. There will still be strengths and weaknesses among this group.

The problem is, there are influences upon influences stacked from the environment as well as genetics, and it has never been clear that any particular race suffers from inferior mental strengths overall.

This type of thinking was soundly smacked down in the 20th century.

Black Yoshi on September 13, 2009 at 4:33 PM

Environment definitely has probably at least 50% to do with it. However, we should be honest about potential genetic influences.

Upstater85 on September 13, 2009 at 7:44 PM

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 6:49 PM

You are completely incapable of rational thought and are a total slave. People like you is why Conservativism will in the end, Fail.

I have to take issue with this.

Conservatism will not fail, because the rational amongst us will not surrender control of this movement to a bunch of clowns from the God Squad, who cannot explain why an omnipotent omniscient Being, so completely concerned with homosexual marriage and decency in the media, has allowed what they claim to be “God’s country” to rise to world prominence in part on a decadent entertainment industry controlled by the Gay mafia.

Once again, if God is so concerned about the affairs of this country, he really is slacking off. Maybe the God Squad should have a word with Him about it, given their close personal relationship with Him.

JohnGalt23 on September 13, 2009 at 8:42 PM

Conservatism will not fail, because the rational amongst us will not surrender control of this movement to a bunch of clowns from the God Squad,

you’re not conservative…and don’t expect real conservatives to work with posers.

who cannot explain why an omnipotent omniscient Being, so completely concerned with homosexual marriage and decency in the media, has allowed what they claim to be “God’s country” to rise to world prominence in part on a decadent entertainment industry controlled by the Gay mafia

oh yeah we rose to a world power via hollywood!! right..it wasn’t our military or our manufacturing…cars, planes, oh no it was film…the rest of the world quakes when we release a new movie!!!

Once again, if God is so concerned about the affairs of this country, he really is slacking off.

once again, its because we’re filled with too many clowns like you that we are in the trouble we are in…God lets fools suffer from their own folly…

right4life on September 13, 2009 at 8:58 PM

As to numbers:

The purpose of any conquest is to eliminate threat to one’s own power. The killing continues until there is no need/desire for further killing.

Had there been six billion people around 1700 years ago, there would have been a great many more deaths caused by the needs/ideals of the time.

OldEnglish on September 13, 2009 at 9:27 PM

Had there been six billion people around 1700 years ago, there would have been a great many more deaths caused by the needs/ideals of the time.

OldEnglish on September 13, 2009 at 9:27 PM

Maybe… but even with the big governments 1700′s ago, they were limited by their lack of technology. Then again, the lack of technology may be the reason there weren’t six billion people alive 1700 years ago.

Upstater85 on September 13, 2009 at 9:40 PM

Upstater85 on September 13, 2009 at 9:40 PM

Yes, i wasn’t suggesting that there could have been six billion people, or that they would have been accessible, merely that such a large number died last century, at the hands of tyrants, because there were large numbers to kill.

OldEnglish on September 13, 2009 at 9:45 PM

Yes, i wasn’t suggesting that there could have been six billion people, or that they would have been accessible, merely that such a large number died last century, at the hands of tyrants, because there were large numbers to kill.

OldEnglish on September 13, 2009 at 9:45 PM

Yeah, I was just pointing out that even if centuries ago people were just as evil (I’m assuming evil doesn’t increase as time increases), it still would have been hard to pull off some of these crimes against humanity simply because there just weren’t the means to…

Upstater85 on September 13, 2009 at 9:53 PM

Upstater85 on September 13, 2009 at 9:53 PM

True, but they would have desired to. That is my point. The insistence of some to equate Stalin with evil, is misplaced. He had the opportunity, others, just as evil, did not.

OldEnglish on September 13, 2009 at 10:07 PM

right4life

Take your Religious Dominion Theology and go back to Saudi Arabia.

you’re not conservative…and don’t expect real conservatives to work with posers.

Translation: You are not a Christian, therefore you are less than an American no matter what. You could die for this country but if you don’t get the Cross for your tombstone you are not a ‘Real’ American. You can be gay and jump on a grenade for your Brothers-in-Arms but guess what, you are not a ‘Real’ American because the Bible says you aren’t. You can storm Normandy but if you don’t love Christ we don’t love you. In order to be a ‘Real’ American, you gotta be a Christian.

I take it the Declaration of Indepdendence is now an Unamerican Document.

You’d doom the Republic with your religious factionalism.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 10:25 PM

Considering when the Bible was written it is still an amazing contemporary road map for living a good and productive life and enjoying the riches of the earth.

Don’t you just love all these wonderful accidents of nature.

eaglesdontflock on September 14, 2009 at 1:07 AM

Here I’m just going to repeat my first comment from the thread:

“Can you be a conservative and believe in God? Obviously. Can you be a conservative and not believe in God? This is an empirical essay, and so the answer is, as obviously, yes. Can you be a conservative and despise God and feel contempt for those who believe in Him? I would say no…. If one dismisses religion as intellectually contemptible, it becomes difficult to identity oneself wholly with a movement in which religion plays a vital role….”

- William F. Buckley

aengus on September 12, 2009 at 6:23 PM

Basically the concept of an anti-theist conservative movement is nonsensical. Libertarians should just form a separate movement and not align themselves with conservatives as they quite obviously hold them in contempt.

aengus on September 14, 2009 at 8:41 AM

Basically the concept of an anti-theist conservative movement is nonsensical. Libertarians should just form a separate movement and not align themselves with conservatives as they quite obviously hold them in contempt.

aengus on September 14, 2009 at 8:41 AM

absolutely true…I’d rather have an honest enemy than a deceitful ‘friend’ as these ‘libertarians’ are…

right4life on September 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM

right4life

Take your Religious Dominion Theology and go back to Saudi Arabia.

I’m not a dominionist…duhhhhh

Translation: You are not a Christian, therefore you are less than an American no matter what. You could die for this country but if you don’t get the Cross for your tombstone you are not a ‘Real’ American.

you are a liberal…not a conservative. I don’t understand why you want to be around conservatives…you hate us, and hold us in contempt…you sound like a typical liberal playing games….

as far as being an ‘american’ you prove that any idiot can be an american, unfortunately.

You’d doom the Republic with your religious factionalism.

Holger on September 13, 2009 at 10:25 PM

you’ve already doomed the republic with your socialist policies.

right4life on September 14, 2009 at 9:10 AM

aengus on September 14, 2009 at 8:41 AM

But you are presenting a false choice between an anti-theist movement and a religious movement. There are religous persons who are more libertarian minded (like me) and there are atheists and agnostics who are not aggressively anti-religous.

Squid Shark on September 14, 2009 at 9:20 AM

Squid Shark on September 14, 2009 at 9:20 AM

have you ever read lewrockwell.com?? the libertarian site? they sound just like liberal wackos…’lincoln was a tyrant’ ‘BOOOSH is a tyrant’

just nutty stuff…they’re not conservative, they’re crazy.

right4life on September 14, 2009 at 9:29 AM

just nutty stuff…they’re not conservative, they’re crazy.

right4life on September 14, 2009 at 9:29 AM

Lew Rockwell is a nut and a “big L” libertarian. Big difference.

I am not Lew Rockwell, neither are most libertarian leaning Republicans.

Have you ever listened to Neal Boortz? That is a better example.

Squid Shark on September 14, 2009 at 9:35 AM

Have you ever listened to Neal Boortz? That is a better example.

Squid Shark on September 14, 2009 at 9:35 AM

he’s a good guy.

right4life on September 14, 2009 at 9:46 AM

Howard Kurtz has just claimed that Van Jones was behind the Color of Change boycott on Glenn Beck. That he ran this boycott from the White House.

Although he began firing at his target earlier, Beck intensified his assault after a group co-founded by Jones, Color of Change, launched a boycott campaign that has led dozens of advertisers to withdraw from his television show —

Beck had no proof, so he didn’t mention it on air, but obviously Mr. Kurtz does.

barnone on September 14, 2009 at 9:56 AM

as for Christ: All of His enemies will be His footstool. History is proving the truth to that statement.

Osis on September 14, 2009 at 10:11 AM

I always find it amusing when God is actually debated as if relativism is Reality. For a change, someone (Beck) is promoting Truth, finally!

Nalea on September 14, 2009 at 10:24 AM

Religion is a cult and shouldn’t have any role in government. If this is the case I don’t know why christianity should be the choice religion compared to say scientology.

Norvell on September 14, 2009 at 11:19 AM

>.< I just had an entire rant typed in, but you were all saved from it. I hadn’t checked to see if I’d been ‘banned’. :P

Short version…Glenn Beck is right.

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” ~John Adams

pannw on September 14, 2009 at 11:23 AM

God (the God of Israel) has a rightful place in our lives
But the key difference between
Islam and christianity is

We dont Chop your heads off
if you leave christianity

Islam cannot withstand any serious scrutiny.

Now if you dont believe in any god
ok – that is your choice..

I think your stupid – but it is YOUR RIGHT to be STUPID.

veteranoutrage on September 14, 2009 at 11:26 AM

“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved– the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

Norvell on September 14, 2009 at 11:31 AM

above quote is from james madison. Not to mention Thomas Jefferson himself also saw christianity and religion as being something negative in general and definitely in regards to government.

Norvell on September 14, 2009 at 11:33 AM

Religion is a cult and shouldn’t have any role in government. If this is the case I don’t know why christianity should be the choice religion compared to say scientology.

Norvell on September 14, 2009 at 11:19 AM

That one is simple, you are a reprobate.

daesleeper on September 14, 2009 at 11:33 AM

A laundry list of quotes from Founding fathers and important people in american history who did not view religion in a positive light, especially it’s role of government
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Norvell on September 14, 2009 at 11:38 AM

Some serious anger here.

Well done, AP. High fives.

Reaps on September 14, 2009 at 11:59 AM

he tells the Christian minister that “we must restore God in his rightful place because these rights belong to him.” What he means by “rightful place” is unclear

God lives (or doesn’t matter) in our hearts, our minds and finds expression through our strength when we love God. As Jesus taught, give to God what is God’s and to government what is the government’s. Furthermore, Jesus clarified that his “kingdom” is not of this earth.

Non-Muslims want their Constitutional Rights honored and PROTECTED by their government. And as you noted, Allahpundit, Beck was addressing a Christian minister, hence my referencing Jesus.

Immer, I have expressed respect for the utter respect that Muslims pay to Allah in their overt prayerful worship ritual.

Und immer so, I have expressed my reverence for rituals that bring us the spirit of peace, but aversion to hollow rituals that enable self righteousness, and evil rituals that perpetuate evil under guise as “righteousness”.

Of all the world’s “greatest” religions, Islam alone yet refuses to accept the equality of those people of other faiths, charging them to live as second-class citizens and pay additional financial tribute for not being Muslim; and alone, Islam yet preaches DEATH to the infidel, and honors the murderers who cruelly steal innocent lives. In that, Muslims resemble Cain and bear the figurative mark of Cain for all to know, cursed by God for murdering his brother in cold blood, and for not feeling remorse, even upon being called out by God, given opportunity to repent, spiting God.

It isn’t the place of Muslims to superimpose their cultural ideology upon the world, whether “tolerantly” while charging taxes for being non-Muslim, or intolerantly by murdering people for an honest difference of opinion.

Beck was just going as far as national politics in his comment. And Christians and non-Muslims all have the right to worship our own God according to our own religious practices without the likes of either Muslims, atheists or Marxists telling us we and/or our God have no place in public discourse, and that our government will prosecute us if we live our lives according to our own religions, carrying God within our hearts, in our minds, in our deeds; even on a chain around our neck IF WE CHOOSE, or a sign in our storefront window, office desk, or front door IF WE CHOOSE, or REMAIN on our nation’s currency, or symbols on the walls of our courtrooms, or paintings and sculptures in our nation’s Capitol building, or old war memorials to honor those who paid the ultimate sacrifice.

$.02

maverick muse on September 14, 2009 at 12:23 PM

But you are presenting a false choice between an anti-theist movement and a religious movement. There are religous persons who are more libertarian minded (like me) and there are atheists and agnostics who are not aggressively anti-religous.

Squid Shark on September 14, 2009 at 9:20 AM

I thought it was clear from my quotation of Buckley that I only meant anti-theists can’t be called conservatives. The problem is that there are now so many anti-theist libertarians. The two reasons for this imo are that 1) many or most libertarians of the Rand school internalise Rand’s hatred of religious people and 2) the rise in fashionable anti-theism – by which I mean things like the inclusion of articles by Christopher Hitchens in conservative publications – making it seemingly an acceptable norm. The outcome of this is that you have people saying that Christians will not be allowed to hijack conservatism, as if people who want to tear down every aspect of society were somehow *more* conservative than people who follow the traditional faith!!! That is just too much crazy for a Monday my friend.

aengus on September 14, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Religion is a cult and shouldn’t have any role in government. If this is the case I don’t know why christianity should be the choice religion compared to say scientology.

Norvell on September 14, 2009 at 11:19 AM

atheism is a cult too…

you know whats funny is I support legalizing drugs…I just cannot support the supposed ‘libertarian’ positions of killing unborn babies…and gay marriage…

why? because these restrict the rights of others…and how can the ‘libertarians’ be for such a restriction of rights?

answer is, they can’t…true libertarians, like true classical liberals, are all about freedom…not just for some…

right4life on September 14, 2009 at 1:14 PM

“We as christians “believe” we were created in the image of God”. Lot’s of folks “believe” things but that doesn’t necessarily make it so…David Berkowitz believed he could talk to his neighbor’s dog. Yet, somehow how that image dangling on the cross looks more like Charlie Manson than Bin Laden…but let’s not let a little thing like geography spoil your make-believe time.

christians…history’s greatest revisionists.

Good4Onan on September 14, 2009 at 4:20 PM

Good4Onan on September 14, 2009 at 4:20 PM

Glittering jewel of ignorance and bigotry. GJ!

daesleeper on September 14, 2009 at 5:34 PM

I don’t understand the spotlight on Beck in a kinda, sorta, negative way. He knows what he is doing and he’s done more than any of the other people in media. So- he believes in God. Why would anyone fan the flames for the left? This is the wrong time for this debate.

njpat on September 14, 2009 at 9:30 PM

“Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”

- Thomas Jefferson (1743 – 1826)

ronsfi on September 15, 2009 at 1:59 AM

Do you have a right to be cared for when you are sick? Absolutely. Do you have a right to be cared for BY THE GOVERNMENT when you are sick? Absolutely NOT.

The former is an inherent right. The latter is an entitlement. Please don’t confuse rights with entitlements anymore. It makes me nauseus……which means you would be morally (yet still not legally) obligated to bring me relief from my nausea.

gocatholic on September 15, 2009 at 10:47 AM

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