Obama science czar: Redistributionism as the cure for American exceptionalism
posted at 2:19 pm on September 9, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
With more focus getting applied to Barack Obama’s czars, the first to receive scrutiny should be John Holdren, Obama’s science czar. Michelle has outlined Holdren’s odd views from the past, including statements in books published in the 1970s that suggested forced sterilizations and social pressure for abortions, among other things. The College Politico finds something a little more recent in this interview in 2007, conducted in the virtual-reality environment of Second Life, in which Holdren discusses his views on science and economics:
HOLDREN: There has been a strain of what many people call “US exceptionalism” in the United States, the notion that the United States is so big, so important, so powerful, so technologically advanced that it can and should do what it wants. I think this strain is misguided.
Q: Will Americans need to reduce their living standards? Is that politically viable, or will technology [unintelligible] do it?
H: I think ultimately that the rate of growth of material consumption is going to have to come down, and there’s going to have to be a degree of redistribution of how much we consume, in terms of energy and material resources, in order to leave room for people who are poor to become more prosperous.
Consider that a foreshadowing of Barack Obama’s Joe the Plumber moment.
First, Holdren doesn’t know what “American exceptionalism” means. He can’t even get the term right. American exceptionalism has nothing to do with our size or our technological prowess, except in tertiary terms. Exceptionalism springs from the unique nature of our nation’s birth, the historical leadership in personal freedom that America has shown (with very notable failures, such as slavery and post-Civil War Jim Crow), and especially the role America inherited in the 20th century as the guarantor of Western security and international shipping.
This is no philosophical quibble, either. Part of the reason America consumes more relative to other nations on a per-capita basis is because we produce more for the consumption of others, and out of necessity for our role as global cop. That is a large part of the reason that our defense spending outstrips those of other Western nations, as they do not contribute nearly as much to that role. Seeing as how Holdren can’t figure out what he opposes, it comes as no surprise that he doesn’t see the connection between that role and consumption of resources, either.
One can oppose America’s role on the world stage from either the Right or the Left, and challenge the notion of American exceptionalism itself — but it helps to start off by knowing what it is. Holdren should get bounced for his ignorance as well as opposed for his radical, redistributionist views. This interview strongly suggests that Obama’s science czar got picked not for his dedication to science but for his redistributionist views under the cloak of climate change.
Blowback
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Translation: I WANT MORE, SO STOP USING SO MUCH YOU PEASANTS!
MadisonConservative on September 9, 2009 at 2:22 PM
There are plenty of reasons to oppose this dude, but I’m going shallow here and saying that I don’t want anyone who looks like that making any kind of important decisions.
Heck, by the looks of him, he shouldn’t even have a say on what is for dinner in his own house.
myrenovations on September 9, 2009 at 2:22 PM
Planned Parenthood should be pleased with this guy.
He sounds like a Sanger retread.
Soon Hitler’s Mein Kampf will be required reading, but not until they give it another title.
Badger40 on September 9, 2009 at 2:22 PM
Holdren needs to be re-distributed out of the US
PatriotRider on September 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM
CZARS OUT OF US GOVERNMENT
US OUT OF MY WALLET
Good Lt on September 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM
You told us not to fight this one, Ed.
JKahn913 on September 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM
LOL! My thoughts exactly. Redistributionists are not prepared to live by the standards they wish to enforce.
Badger40 on September 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM
And someday there may be no choices besides Soylent Green.
Badger40 on September 9, 2009 at 2:24 PM
oops…I had him confused with Cass Sunstein. With all these czars its hard to keep them straight.
becki51758 on September 9, 2009 at 2:25 PM
This guy is even more disturbing than Van Jones. Time for Holdren and the FCC guy to resign.
forest on September 9, 2009 at 2:25 PM
Is Marxism scientific?
theCork on September 9, 2009 at 2:27 PM
I made the same mistake. I’m sorry, Ed.
JKahn913 on September 9, 2009 at 2:27 PM
Im disturbed by all of them.
becki51758 on September 9, 2009 at 2:28 PM
I’m going to take exception to this comment. Slavery still exists in much of the world. Also we had something called ‘indentured servants’ where white Europeans were brought here as slaves for 10 years before they were given their freedom.
Jim Crow laws were designed in a unique situation. . . but try going to Mecca now as a non-Muslim. Or try applying to Wellesly as a man. Or try taking communion in a Catholic Church as equals if you are a non-Catholic Christian.
If you think Jim Crow laws are bad, you should have a problem with how the Catholic Church treats other Christians TODAY.
ThackerAgency on September 9, 2009 at 2:28 PM
I don’t know where Holdren gets his info from, but he should sue.
American exceptionalism has nothing to do with the fact that we are big and advanced. It has to do with our founding principles, which led to our being big and advanced.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:28 PM
The radicals running our government hate American and those who have made it successful. They are focused on bringing us down, and they are working as fast as they can on multiple fronts to accomplish that. We are fortunate to have smart people on our side exposing these people and the destructive plans they are implementing.
GaltBlvnAtty on September 9, 2009 at 2:28 PM
… and the only cure is moe cow dung!
Seriously, though… he’s complaining about some people using too much technological resources while giving an interview in a video game?
malclave on September 9, 2009 at 2:29 PM
Can someone please slap the sh#t out of me and wake me up from this nightmare?
TXMomof3 on September 9, 2009 at 2:29 PM
One can only assume that any Democrat that doesn’t denounce these fools must subscribe to their idiotic left wing philosophies.
rplat on September 9, 2009 at 2:29 PM
Speacking strictly as a securities trader:
GET SHORT!!!!!!
galtg on September 9, 2009 at 2:30 PM
That’s right, but it’s even worse. America’s size, importance, power, and technological advancement is because of American exceptionalism – as a direct result of it.
I find it amazing that someone so stupid as to not understand this simple concept is even occupying any position of power. Of course, The Precedent is a total moron, himself, so this takes much of the surprise away.
These people offend the intellect.
progressoverpeace on September 9, 2009 at 2:31 PM
At least we won’t get called racist (as often) for pointing out that Holdren in a kook. He is a white guy, right? He looks like a “typical white person” to me.
forest on September 9, 2009 at 2:31 PM
Redistributionists
Revolutionaries
Radicals
Racists
As someone else said we have a target rich enviroment.
fourdeucer on September 9, 2009 at 2:31 PM
American exceptionalism was not founded in freedom. Revolutionary France had freedom. It ended in bloodshed and tyranny, in spite of Jefferson and Paine’s feverish support.
Our greatness has always been tied to our faith in and reliance on Providence, corporately, as a people, from the ground up. That is gone. So will we be soon enough.
America without God’s hedge and support is little more than a nation of petulant children upheld by the inertia of former glory.
spmat on September 9, 2009 at 2:32 PM
No traction here. This is mainstream academic stuff. I am an adjunct professor who teaches philosophy once in a while. Hate to break it to you, but this is a prevalent belief held by those coming out of high school. There are some exceptions, but not many.
ObjectionSustained on September 9, 2009 at 2:32 PM
So let’s recap:
– Economic conditions throwing everyone into panic about their share of resources.
– Fascism and communism back in the public discourse as government possibilities.
– Anti-semitism once again on the rise.
– Eugenicists who want to wipe out the poor masses of the earth so that their share of the resources is bigger.
Ugh. Any ideas?
MadisonConservative on September 9, 2009 at 2:32 PM
Indentured servants weren’t slaves, as most people understand the term. They had many rights, codified in law and custom.
There were many people in the old world who wanted to move to the new, but couldn’t afford passage. Under indentured servitude, someone would pay for that passage, with the contractual understanding that the emigree would work off the debt upon arrival.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:32 PM
We have a new target for the Czar firing squad.
Chaz706 on September 9, 2009 at 2:32 PM
Holdren definitely has unacceptable opinions for one with a prominent role in government. As a private citizen, he is entitled to think that way, but not as one with the President’s ear and hands on a multi-billion dollar budget.
Van Jones was radical in a kooky way; Holdren is in my opinion much more dangerous. Further, because of his race he would not garner even 10% support in an opinion poll of voters if they were told what his views are. He is truly out of the mainsteam even of Democrats, let alone the nation as a whole.
Keep that bus running, Mr. President.
jwolf on September 9, 2009 at 2:33 PM
I think that was the Cass Sunstein one. But with all the czars and special advisers, all of whom hold nutty views, it is easy to get confused.
It isn’t that we should consume less, it is that others, such as the poor, should consume more. With more people consuming more, that is going to lead to greater efficiency and better technology. These people do not understand basic economics.
rbj on September 9, 2009 at 2:33 PM
Is there any level of ignorance and bigotry towards which you won’t sink?
You really believe that not letting other Christians share communion is equivalent to Jim Crow?
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:33 PM
BTW-all those in favor of forced sterilization need to lead by example.
This guy should be 1st in line for a vasectomy.
Badger40 on September 9, 2009 at 2:34 PM
One thing for sure is that this administration isn’t anywhere near that of Carter in that I don’t think Carter hated his country as this current clown and his Czars do.
It;s very sad indeed that the media was complacent in his coronation at the risk of their own hides. The RNC has as much to blame as the anti-American DNC does and did because of their go along to get along elitist policies in the Senate in the creation of the Department of Education at the cabinet level. Many of our children were indoctrinated with the attitude that America was and is the main source of the evil on the planet today. What would our Founders say tho what is being mandated by the education department via the court decisions foisted upon our children.
larvcom on September 9, 2009 at 2:34 PM
Where does Obama keep finding these neo-Malthusian eugencists? I’ve never met any, it’s been less popular since the Nazis were defeated. Why is there such a preoponderance of these jerks in his cabinet?
Welcome to Czarist Amerika, comrades!
theCork on September 9, 2009 at 2:34 PM
Obama picks what he is. He’s been consistent. Only the voters were fooled. Some seem to see the lemon they’ve ‘bought’.
Schadenfreude on September 9, 2009 at 2:34 PM
I’d rather slap the shit out of Holdren.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:34 PM
I was thinking that myself.
I’m not a Catholic, but some of my husband’s family is & when I go to a funeral or some other event in the Catholic church, I have never wanted to take communion.
Why would you want to take communion or sacrament etc.. in a church you are not a member of?!
Badger40 on September 9, 2009 at 2:35 PM
Bigger question:
Who are the losers who logged into a video game to be lectured to any someone? You’d be nailing virtual women or killing a dragon.
lorien1973 on September 9, 2009 at 2:35 PM
By the way, Ed, you realize that forced sterilization goes back much further than the 1970s, right?
MadisonConservative on September 9, 2009 at 2:36 PM
If someone from Glen Beck’s show is reading this article, I strongly believe that Holdren should be Glen’s next target.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:36 PM
FIFY
Knucklehead on September 9, 2009 at 2:36 PM
Another Obama Apologist – we’re on the fast track to becoming more ordinary & common thanks to these people.
katiejane on September 9, 2009 at 2:37 PM
Ed,
Where is Michelle’s (archived) story? The link goes to her home page and a story about Daschle.
RushBaby on September 9, 2009 at 2:37 PM
I have tried several times and got my ass handed to me each time. I get the “pump” part of the Goldman/Soros/Bernanke/Geithner scheme….still waiting on the “dump” part.
genso on September 9, 2009 at 2:37 PM
Big shock that the same media who worked like hell to hide the true Barrack Hussein Obama from the public now work even harder to 1) make his incompetence/idiocy look good and 2) cover up just what kind of lunatics he’s putting in charge of our economy, freedoms, and future.
Hey, thanks for that.
Sugar Land on September 9, 2009 at 2:38 PM
American exceptionalism has nothing to do with the fact that we are big and advanced. It has to do with our founding principles, which led to our being big and advanced.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:28 PM
Well said. Holdren has cause and effect exactly backwards, an achievement of perverse genius.
jwolf on September 9, 2009 at 2:38 PM
Zombietime has a huge exposé on Holdren
RushBaby on September 9, 2009 at 2:38 PM
Nuke them from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 9, 2009 at 2:38 PM
I grew up being proud of my country. I grew up, knowing my father didn’t make a lot of money, and having 7 kids, every day was a struggle to make ends meet.
I didn’t marry rich. Every day, for 23 years, has been a struggle to make ends meet. By no means, at any time during my child hood, or adult life, have I had to rely on assistance from anyone of any kind.
We work hard, save for those little extras we occasionally purchase. Otherwise, we go without, or put off for a later time, if possible. Of course, as we all know, something always seems to come up to impede a process. A large expenditure for the car, or an appliance repair. Yet…we survive going without, and make do with what we have. We are by no means wealthy. We work hard for everything, and are proud to do that.
Why? Because we never take for granted what young men , and women now, or in the past fought, and died for. Our freedoms. It seems we rely on that, but our freedoms also come from ourselves. Giving in to this redistribution is to say you no longer want freedoms…and the bottom line is…profiting, or benefitting from anything given, that was taken from someone else is in the end….stealing. It’s to bad those standing in line to benefit from this insane redistribution nonsense, ignore that little fact.
capejasmine on September 9, 2009 at 2:39 PM
genso
patience..I think we’ll need a trigger rather than a rollover and die type situation..
the key sign will be a reversal in the dollar..a flight to safety if you will..then it’s all over
IMHO
galtg on September 9, 2009 at 2:39 PM
As my pastor says before communion, there is only one church, it just meets in many different buildings. All believers are invited to partake in communion in our piece of the church. That Catholics feel differently saddens me a bit, but they are within their rights to set their own rules.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:40 PM
I hope you’re right, but didn’t Glenn mention yesterday that “things were being scrubbed from the internet”?
Or was I hearing things?
Knucklehead on September 9, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Yeah, yeah. If you watch Glenn Beck, this is old news…..how will the MSM call this scrutiny ‘racist’ since this man is uh, white. I’m glad the spotlight is now on the roaches….
HornetSting on September 9, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Thacker, this isn’t a Catholic thread. Can’t you wait ’til a thread comes up that in some way touches on Catholicism in order to spew your rage at the Church? You’re mid-air in jumping the shark, troll.
theCork on September 9, 2009 at 2:40 PM
American Exceptionalism is the direct result of our individualism, which is the enemy of collectivism. They intend to destroy the notion of the individual, little by little, with every piece of legislation they pass, every court decision they make, every bit of federal power they grab, and every office and bureaucracy they create. The sovereignty of the individual states is in many ways related and it, too, is under attack.
Logic on September 9, 2009 at 2:41 PM
Ummm, this guy is White. Doubt it will even get 100 Hotair comments much less any focus on Fox News.
Decider on September 9, 2009 at 2:41 PM
+1
MadisonConservative on September 9, 2009 at 2:41 PM
Before reading the thread, I’d be willing to bet some moron takes exception with this statement.
crr6 on September 9, 2009 at 2:42 PM
So, let it begin…….
HornetSting on September 9, 2009 at 2:43 PM
We are at a crossroads in our history that is so very similar to where our Founding Fathers were 233 year ago. They cam up with this stetment and sent it along to the King:
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–THAT WHENEVER ANY FORM OF GOVERNMENT BECOMES DESTRUCTIVE OF THESE ENDS, IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR ABOLISH IT, AND TO INSTITUTE NEW GOVERNMENT, LAYING ITS FOUNDATION ON SUCH PRINCIPLES AND ORGANIZING ITS POWERS IN SUCH FORM, AS TO THEM SHALL SEEM MOST LIKELY TO EFFECT THEIR SAFETY AND HAPPINESS. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.–Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
I put it to all here at this site, it’s time for dare I say CHANGE!
larvcom on September 9, 2009 at 2:43 PM
I always remember what Yamamoto said when someone suggested invading the American mainland.
I don’t remember the exact quote, but it was along the lines of: It would be a bad idea, because they would be facing a gun behind every rock and tree.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:43 PM
Yeah, just like both threads about open carriers which got hundreds and hundreds of comments. But…one was black.
Oh, that’s right. You have an MSNBC IV hookup and think he was white. Hm.
Now go drink a Drano milkshake.
MadisonConservative on September 9, 2009 at 2:43 PM
LMAO.
crr6 on September 9, 2009 at 2:43 PM
It’s a good thing that socialism is the answer to all of our problems, so that whether you are Green Jobs Czar or Science Czar, the answers are all the same!
Akzed on September 9, 2009 at 2:43 PM
Holdren (and Sunstein and…): left too indulged to their own amusements in cloistered academia where their emotional natures have never matured past the “id”.
Lourdes on September 9, 2009 at 2:43 PM
Hey Decider, maybe you can answer me: Is Marxism scientific?
theCork on September 9, 2009 at 2:44 PM
Isn’t it amazing how liberals assume that everyone who disagrees with them must be a racist.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:44 PM
Revolutionary France had nothing even approximating freedom. All they had were claims of freedom, which quickly succumbed to the reality of French stupidity – as the French had the full experience of our revolution and founding to base theirs on, but instead chose to try and prove how perfect they were. Typically French. And now they are in their 5th Republic, still not having gotten it correct.
While I am a believer in the notion of divine providence, our greatness came from our concentration on the individual and individual rights and liberties. Our Constitution was written about individuals (with no parties existing in the Constitution) and addressed nothing but individuals filling the roles in the federal government. It is individualism that unleashed the creative energies and great freedoms that defined America.
I agree that religion is an important part of our nation, but as the traditional glue that held everything together (outside of Constitutional individualism). The French made a huge mistake in their rabid anti-religion stance, which painted much of their twisted revolution and led them to the problems they encountered, leading eventually to their falling back into a dictatorship. The current left is very much like the French revolutionaries (Gitmo as their Bastille) and is trying to follow the same line, for much of their policies.
The French revolutionary morons hated religion so much that they invented a new calendar, with 10 day weeks, just to try and kill religious traditions that depend heavily on the 7 day week. Quite insane stuff.
BTW, I don’t know why many conservatives like to reference Jefferson. He was a fool who had little concept of what America would be. He was in favor of states’ rights, but not for reasons of federalism as today’s conservatives. Jefferson saw something more of a static nation filled with gentleman farmers wasting their days away. His support of the Fench revolutionaries showed how wrong his real thoughts were. Were it not for the Louisianna Purchase (which Jefferson had to go back on just about everything he had claimed before in order to do) Jefferson would be a footnote.
progressoverpeace on September 9, 2009 at 2:44 PM
Your race card doesn’t work here anymore.
Buzz off troll.
Knucklehead on September 9, 2009 at 2:44 PM
and the parade of racist morons continues.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:44 PM
Who said liberalism is a mental disorder?
They’re right.
tru2tx on September 9, 2009 at 2:44 PM
“The fact is, on both the energy/climate legislation and health care legislation, only the Democrats are really playing. With a few notable exceptions, the Republican Party is standing, arms folded and saying “no.” Many of them just want President Obama to fail. Such a waste. Mr. Obama is not a socialist; he’s a centrist.”
The quote above is taken from an article elsewhere on this site. Written by Thomas Friedman, it demonstrates the one-track mind of today’s liberal elite.
College Prof on September 9, 2009 at 2:45 PM
He’s got to go.
I don’t get this: Even in my younger liberal days, I believed with my whole heart that America was the best — and not in that phony, we are Americans, we can do better kind of way.
Blake on September 9, 2009 at 2:45 PM
Good to see this thread. Holdren is the one czar that I’ve been most interested in hearing about…made me wonder why Van Jones was Beck’s first target, but, I’ll take what we can get.
This man is a menace. I will personally work overtime to help expose and oust him.
Beckheads and, er, everyone else UNITE!
Diane on September 9, 2009 at 2:45 PM
Otherwise, monsters among society in all situations other than behind a podium or ensconced in an office commanding who enters and who does not.
Lourdes on September 9, 2009 at 2:45 PM
I’ll never understand how anyone can refer to America’s leading role in abolishing slavery throughout the world as a “failure”. This must be some new use of the term “failure” of which I was not previously aware.
JohnJ on September 9, 2009 at 2:45 PM
Typical reactionary leftist who doesn’t understand economics.
‘Pathetic intellectual anachronism.’
N. O'Brain on September 9, 2009 at 2:46 PM
Yeah! Kick is lefty racist a$$ out of here!
Blake on September 9, 2009 at 2:46 PM
Holdren is an idiot. And that’s putting it kindly.
GarandFan on September 9, 2009 at 2:47 PM
Let me worry about me. You can worry about personal hygene.
Oil Can on September 9, 2009 at 2:47 PM
America will soon find Obama is shovel ready.
tarpon on September 9, 2009 at 2:47 PM
This guy is 10x crazier than Van Jones.
tetriskid on September 9, 2009 at 2:47 PM
America didn’t take a leading role in the elimination of slavery. That was the British. America was very late to that particular movement.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Beck’s been talking about Holdren for quite awhile now, but since you don’t watch it, you didn’t know that, did you, mommy?
HornetSting on September 9, 2009 at 2:48 PM
I’m certain you forgot the “/sarc” tag. If not, exactly how racist are you?
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on September 9, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Note that there’s this intent by the Left to AGITATE RACIALLY. It sure appears to be the overall motive by several of them.
Thus, they catch others’ eye and get the whole racial thing going.
If they can’t agitate that dead horse, they literally have nothing.
Lourdes on September 9, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Don’t know about that, but he did say, just hours after Pearl Harbor, “I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant, and filled him with terrible resolve.”
And we all know how that turned out.
Akzed on September 9, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Only if you slap me in return…
ladyingray on September 9, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Lol….your opinion is just as valid today and anyone’s. This market is so screwy, I’m starting to pay attention to signals my dog is giving me now. Who knew he was more than a lazy crap machine.
Concise….thanks.
genso on September 9, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Personally, I’m proud of America’s role as a leader in the abolition of slavery throughout the world. I don’t know how anyone can be ashamed of that.
JohnJ on September 9, 2009 at 2:49 PM
I despise silly and ignorant authoritarian “progressives” regardless of race, color, sex or creed.
Because they’re all the same color inside – red.
NoDonkey on September 9, 2009 at 2:49 PM
I always wanted the code name for the Afghanistan invasion to be “Terrible Resolve”, because of that quote.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2009 at 2:49 PM
That’s what Olberturd is spewing to his 5 viewers.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on September 9, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Racism is the cause of all of our problems, and socialism is the universal solution. What a simple world libtards live in. Must be nice.
Akzed on September 9, 2009 at 2:50 PM
You need to learn some history. America was not the only leader, but America was in a leading role.
JohnJ on September 9, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Next!
Vashta.Nerada on September 9, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Holdren for Target Czar.
applebutter on September 9, 2009 at 2:50 PM
This idiot is a complete and utter nutjob…no wonder he appeals to Obama and the rest of the Reparationists !
DoctorDentons on September 9, 2009 at 2:50 PM
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