What a wonderful story — an example of God’s grace. I hope he continues to positively influence the lives of inmates.

Richard Romano on September 5, 2009 at 11:13 AM

Well the best place he can do that is serving his sentence behind bars for the rest of his life I guess. I personally don’t see the justice of him getting any joy out of it while his victim spends his time in a cold grave.

Later, when I was older, I found a copy of Helter Skelter and read it when I was staying with family friends, while my parents were out of town. I can’t say it inspired my fascination with the morbid, since obviously I was already fascinated when I guiltily devoured the book without my parents’ permission. Talk about eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and of evil. My eyes were open, but my soul was troubled.

So what’s the fascination? I think it’s a mixture of the free-love nature of the Manson commune, the extreme nature of the disconnect between that free-love sensibility and the butchery inflicted on their victims, and the notion of Manson as a “Mephistophelean guru,” as one person put it at the time.

Hm. I don’t think there is a “disconnect” here. I think there is a very real connection between the “free love sensibility” and the “butchery”. It reminds me of this man’s words:

There comes an hour in the afternoon when the child is tired of “pretending”, when he is weary of being a robber or red Indian. It is then when he torments the cat. There comes a time in the routine of an ordered civilization when man is tired of playing at mythology and pretending that the tree is a maiden or that the moon made love to a man. The effect of this staleness is the same everywhere; it is seen in all drug taking and dram drinking and every form of the tendency to increase the dose. Men seek stranger sins and more startling obscenities as stimulants to their jaded senses. They seek after mad oriental religions for the same reason. They try to stab their nerves to life, if it were with the knives of the priests of Baal. They are walking in their sleep and try to wake themselves up with nightmares – GK Chesterton

SilverStar830 on September 5, 2009 at 3:30 PM

I’m soooo glad I missed them…

They were, at the time, the hottest couple in Hollywood. It would be akin to Brad and Angelina getting brutally murdered by a free “Mumia” crew or a renegade Hari Krishna group. It would not be forgotten.

I also remember my Father, who was a member of S.E.B. (SWAT) on the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department at the time, trekking all over the desert around Barker Ranch in Death Valley, California with his squad trying to find members of the Manson ‘family’ that had possibly scattered after L.A.P.D. had raided the ranch and arrested Manson and some of his followers for… auto-theft. They hadn’t formulated the Manson Family-LaBianca/Tate murder connection before the time of the raid. After they did, L.A. Sheriff’s searched Death Valley for more Manson family members high and low.

Of course, the Manson Family murder trial was a circus freak show too which led to many more months of daily and nightly coverage on the ol’ black and white TV of Manson and his freaky-deaky family.

Then there were also the Medgar Evers-JFK-Malcolm X-RFK-MLK assassinations, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the civil rights movement, segregations, integrations, riots, the cold war, nuclear proliferation to boggle the mind, Vietnam, the ‘Acid Tests’, Hippies, mass quantities of Drugs, more riots, Chairman Mao in China and his revolutionary ‘purge’, the Arab-Israel Six-Day War … ugh.

The 60′s were a crazy crazy decade.

By the way, you probably put about 3 inches of muscle on your arm holding his Kennedy assassination book up to read it.(if that is the Oswald book you are talking about)
Massive.

Baxter Greene on September 5, 2009 at 1:53 PM

The end notes (not the foot notes in the book)on the included CD were about 1,000 pdf pages.

The DA’s office was ready to offer immunity for eyewitness testimony.Bugliosi knew that he would have a hard time trying Manson without him being there and without convincing the jury of a far fetched motive involving starting a race war with Helter Skelter.
I believe they were prepared to offer immunity even to Susan Atkins in exchange for her testimony.She recanted her confession and the DA’s office withdrew.

As most everyone knows, if you are a party to the crime,you can be found guilty of it even if you did not actually pull the trigger.
Without her deal to testify, Kasabian would have been found guilty of murder.Her deal does not exempt the underlying fact that she was a party to murder not once,but twice.
Bugliosi continuously stating she did not murder anyone certainly is an attempt to distance herself from these crimes in the eyes of people who are harassing her or would do so in the future.

Something else that I noticed she failed to mention.
Kasabian/Bugliosi make a point to say she stayed outside during the Tate murders.
This was not by choice.Tex Watson told her to stay outside and keep a watch. She has already shown that she would do what was told of her so it is only common sense to conclude that if Tex had told her to come inside,she would have been in the house and used her knife like the others.
Yes she did deny Charlie the next night,but that is a lot different than being on the scene at Tate while everybody is butchering and demanding she do her share also.
This is the exact scenario that Leslie Van Houten was in.
She was pretty much haded a knife and told to do her share even though Rosmary Labianca was probably already dead.

Kasabian also by her own admission was with the family only a little over a month before this took place.
She certainly was not under Manson’s influence to the degree that the others were.So she was more aware of how wrong these actions were than the average brainwashed family member.

The fact that she ran off only helps her. She did not run off then report these murders to the police.She ran off and tried to get away with it until the case was busted open by Atkins jail house confessions.

Her testimony was very instrumental in getting Charlie in jail.But she still was an accomplice of two nights of murder and remains free due to a deal, not due to lack of complicity in these murders.

Ronnie Howard (woman that Atkins confessed to in jail) was probably the leader in breaking this case.

Ironically, Tex Watson was the most instrumental in stopping the murder spree by telling Charlie that the authorities had been to his home in Texas looking for him concerning the murders.
Charlie freaked out and took everybody deeper into the desert.
Tex went back home to later be extradited and charged separately.

LOL..you think we can get the license plates changed from,”America’s Dairyland” to “Serial Killerland”?

Jeff from WI on September 5, 2009 at 9:28 AM

Jeff,

How about: “Serial Killers AND Brats!”

If you’re a Dennis Miller Zone member you can hear an especially loopy interview in the DMZ archives for June 11th. Wanted to link to it, but it’s for subscribers only and couldn’t find it on YouTube. Worth checking out though.

Jim Treacher on September 5, 2009 at 1:25 PM

++

Still, I read his book on Oswald and it was pretty good.

Blake on September 5, 2009 at 12:45 PM

I agree.
By the way, you probably put about 3 inches of muscle on your arm holding his Kennedy assassination book up to read it.(if that is the Oswald book you are talking about)
Massive.

His OJ book was also excellent.

His Bush book was extremely disappointing but I do believe he was trying to run for office in California at the time.
Maybe he was vying for votes.

Regardless his crime investigation skills and putting them to paper are some of the most through and comprehensive out there.

I love his adherence to theory and motive and not just a sensationalism of the crimes.

The same thing could be said about today’s media. They have refused to show the carnage of 9/11 over the past few years, because they want people to forget those crimes, too.

Del Dolemonte on September 5, 2009 at 1:23 PM

I never saw anything because my computer was in a different room and I was busy fighting with aholes on the internet for days on end. Imagine my surprise when the MSM decided to censor images. It hasn’t been the past few years but almost immediately and it was stated as a policy on the first anniversary.

So what’s the fascination? I think it’s a mixture of the free-love nature of the Manson commune, the extreme nature of the disconnect between that free-love sensibility and the butchery inflicted on their victims, and the notion of Manson as a “Mephistophelean guru,” as one person put it at the time.

This was truly a unique case in many aspects.

I suggest reading “The Family” by Ed Sanders to get really good background on the Family and Manson’s short,but very powerful influence on young people rejecting everything they could in society ruled by “the man”.

It took a dangerous perfect storm for Manson (who begged not to be let out of prison in 67) to step into such a radical change going on socially that everybody in the “hippie” movement was either pushing their own religion or following somebody else’s.
The anti-social atmosphere was perfect for a charismatic felon who was raised hustling in prison to stay alive.

The use of drugs,sex,and total seclusion from society to break these young adults down was taught to Charlie by Scientologist,the Process,and many different cults that Charlie would pull from to use in dazzling these young minds deluged in a stupor most of the time.

Not revealed very much is the influence Mel Lyman (folk singer and communal cultist) had on Charlie.You can read a lot of his chopped back and forth philosophy here:

http://aes-nihil.com/index2.html

Manson patterned his “raps” in this style and added scientologist methods such as “getting clear” and “getting your fear” along with his apocalyptic influences coming from sources such as The Process Church and OTO.

Charlie and the family took on many different persona’s over a short period of time.
Remember, Charlie actually lived with Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys and Charlie’s song “cease to exist” was recorded by them (under a different name).He was rubbing shoulders with some of the biggest music producers in hollywood (though Melcher was not impressed by him but came to fear him).
Candice Bergen (who lived with Melcher in the now infamous Tate house 6 months before the murders) actually stood face to face with the lead killer Tex Watson and had him kicked out of the house because of his dirty creepy appearance(he came looking for Melcher and money).
The trial was a list of people from movie and recording stars all the way to motorcycle gangs,suburbanites,and cultist.
Charlie got to know a lot of people in a lot of circles very quickly.
Quite an influential personality.

Unfortunately their has been very little credible and in depth documentary concerning how Charlie was able to influence so many people to do so much with little to no feeling about it.

If you remember, in Susan Atkins testimony concerning the second act of murder (Labianca’s), she actually fell asleep many times while they were riding around looking for victims that night.This is after the slaughter the night before at the Tate residence.
It takes some serious detachment from society to fall asleep when you are preparing to kill people like this.

This case is so vast and has so many elements(creation of the family,the murders,the trial,and aftermath) that you could post for days just discussing the beginnings of the Family.

This site also has some great book reviews and breakdown of Charlie,the creation of the family,and the crimes:

http://charliemanson.com/

These people should never see the light of day again.
Unfortunately, Steve Grogan (helped murder Shorty Shea) is now a free man.

If you are going to read up on this case, start with coherent people that were there.

Paul Watkins book: My life with Charles Manson

Tex Watson’s book: Will you die for me

(Susan Atkins book reveals little insight probably due to the fact her main interest was getting paroled)

Catherine “Gypsy” Share is coming out with a new book that I think will be very informative since she was in the inner circle and not just a hanger on.I have seen her speak and she provides invaluable insight into how they evolved and what lead them to such cold blooded murder.

the Helter SKelter motive is just part of it.

Some other well written books on this subject:

The Garbage people (reprinted as Manson): John Gilmore
Gilmore does a good job coming from the perspective of somebody who was involved in the 60′s scene.

The Manson File: Nikolas Schreck
Certainly a different point of view that boarders on the sympathetic but is revealing.

Sharon Tate and the Manson Murders: Greg King
Was surprising happy with the factual and through nature of this book.

The Shadow over Santa Susana Pass: Adam Gorightly
Addresses many of the myths surrounding the case.Good book but needs more confirmation on some theories.

One of the only DVD’s worth watching that Charlie does not get away with his “crazy games” and you actually get some theory and motive out of him is:

Charles Manson Superstar

Many interviews such as Geraldo’s,Snyders,and others are pretty much crap since they don’t seem very informed on how to deal with Charlie and allow him to play his games.

Interesting post topic Captain.

It’s all in who you know, folks.

I use to avoid any documentaries or shows or the internet that showed photos of crime scenes. I thought it was disrespectful to see victim’s in their worse moments. However, something I read by Doris Tate changed my opinion. She wanted people to view the photos of the crime scenes. She said if they didn’t, they would forget how evil these criminals were. She was right. It is too easy to forget.

Blake on September 5, 2009 at 12:42 PM

The same thing could be said about today’s media. They have refused to show the carnage of 9/11 over the past few years, because they want people to forget those crimes, too.

Greyledge Gal on September 5, 2009 at 12:11 PM

My God–I just had a massive amount of flashbacks! *Staggers from the computer to find that bottle of whiskey…*

Bugliosi’s latest book is anti-Bush. I haven’t read it and don’t intend to, but if he’s a progressive lefty liberal, it does tend to make me re-think what he had to say about Manson back then.

NahnCee on September 5, 2009 at 12:31 PM

Oh, he’s way pass progressive lefty liberal: He’s bat shite crazy. I heard him interviewed on Bush numerous times and he is definitely nuts. Still, I read his book on Oswald and it was pretty good.

Terrie on September 5, 2009 at 12:02 PM

God bless the Tates. After the mother died, another daughter continued the fight. When she died, the last daughter picked up the mantle. They have done a lot for crime victims in California.

I use to avoid any documentaries or shows or the internet that showed photos of crime scenes. I thought it was disrespectful to see victim’s in their worse moments. However, something I read by Doris Tate changed my opinion. She wanted people to view the photos of the crime scenes. She said if they didn’t, they would forget how evil these criminals were. She was right. It is too easy to forget.