Did Cass Sunstein propose taking organs against people’s will?

posted at 1:38 pm on September 4, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

The latest in health-care worries comes from CNS News, which reports that a close adviser to Barack Obama proposed removing organs from people “without explicit consent.”  The truth in this case is more complicated than the headline, and is worth discussing in terms of organ donation and the presumptions of American medicine.  Sunstein was not offering a radical notion, but one firmly in the mainstream of organ-donation reform:

Cass Sunstein, President Barack Obama’s nominee to head the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA), has advocated a policy under which the government would “presume” someone has consented to having his or her organs removed for transplantation into someone else when they die unless that person has explicitly indicated that his or her organs should not be taken.

Under such a policy, hospitals would harvest organs from people who never gave permission for this to be done.

Outlined in the 2008 book “Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth, and Happiness,” Sunstein and co-author Richard H. Thaler argued that the main reason that more people do not donate their organs is because they are required to choose donation.

Currently, the US medical system presumes that people opt out of organ donation at death unless they explicitly opt into it, through drivers-license designation, living will, or other clear-cut evidence.    However, not all countries share this paradigm.  Spain, for instance, has a “presumed consent” law that allows organ harvesting at death in absence of evidence otherwise.  Some people estimate that we could double the amount of kidneys and other transplantable organs by adopting a presumed-consent law in the US.

This is hardly a radical concept, but it also is not a good solution to the problem.  At the moment, the US transplants over 7,000 cadaver-donation kidneys every year.  Doubling that would take us to maybe 15,000, which would be a boon for those who receive the kidneys.  However, we currently have over 250,000 people on dialysis, all paid by Medicare, and we add many more than we transplant each year.  The current 5-7 year wait for cadaver transplants makes the plight plain, and also shows that even a presumed-consent law will not really do much than trim the wait time — although there is no denying the value of the extra kidneys that would become available.

Dr. Sally Satel has written extensively on these issues, and earlier this year edited a collection of essays on a better solution: compensating kidney donors for live transplants.  In the book When Altruism Isn’t Enough, Satel explains the limitations of cadaver donations and the need for a much stronger supply of live kidneys.  For many, the idea of compensating people for donating kidneys would be much more radical than a presumed-consent law, but Satel makes a compelling case on public policy, fiscal concerns, and humanitarian and medical grounds.

Update: Glenn Reynolds invokes Monty Python.  I know I’m not supposed to like this clip, but I just can’t help myself.

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Comment pages: 1 2

Live organ transplants.

Daggett on September 4, 2009 at 1:40 PM

Those docs want our feet and our tonsils. Now, toolbags like this want our kidneys and livers…?

no wonder my liver hurts today

ted c on September 4, 2009 at 1:41 PM

Don’t harvest me, bro.

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:41 PM

Here’s the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aclS1pGHp8o

the_nile on September 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM

Well why not go all the way and just create babies for spare parts?

katiejane on September 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM

Question: is CNS news WNDlite?

Mommypundit on September 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM

Kind of like this? (Warning: Graphic, in a Monty Python way.)

Enoxo on September 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM

Organ vultures!

lorien1973 on September 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:41 PM

Heh.

lorien1973 on September 4, 2009 at 1:43 PM

I’m getting really really sick of the word “reform”

Hard to believe, but not everything needs “reform”

Some things are just as good as they are going to get

Sugarbuzz on September 4, 2009 at 1:44 PM

Don’t harvest me, bro.

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:41 PM

+1

ted c on September 4, 2009 at 1:44 PM

First they cost us an arm and a leg, then our fingers, now they want our kidneys.

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:44 PM

Some people estimate that we could double the amount of kidneys and other transplantable organs by adopting a presumed-consent law in the US.

I don’t care if it doubles the GDP and creates a magical shield around our borders. I didn’t give my expressed consent to harvest my organs.

amerpundit on September 4, 2009 at 1:44 PM

Cash 4 Codgers + Barry’s Chop Shop = Free Tonsils And Feet 4 All!

Christien on September 4, 2009 at 1:45 PM

Did Cass Sunstein propose taking organs against people’s will?

Basically, he did. Forcing people to prove that they don’t want their organs harvested is not a simple hurdle, especially as they are all dead, or close to dead, at the time.

People need to double opt-in for friggin’ internet newsletters but we have this ghoul thinking that all organs are his to take unless the corpse objects? Crazy.

progressoverpeace on September 4, 2009 at 1:45 PM

“Medical experiments for the lot of ya”

phreshone on September 4, 2009 at 1:45 PM

Are they at least going to let me die first?

Bobbertsan on September 4, 2009 at 1:45 PM

Good Lord…

Okay .. Look..

The right to my own body, my own person, is the most basic of fundamental rights. It’s the crux of my entire problem with government run healthcare because it leads to government telling me what I can and cannot do with my body.

Now we’re going to be automatically “opted in” to having our organs removed if we’re just on the cusp of death?

NO NO NO NO NO A THOUSAND TIMES NO.

The government DOES NOT HAVE AN AUTOMATIC RIGHT TO MY BODY.

Period.

End of discussion.

“But think of the lives that would be saved.”

Yeah and forced sterilization would lead to a better groomed populace.

21st Century Eugenics from the Progressives…

Skywise on September 4, 2009 at 1:46 PM

First they cost us an arm and a leg, then our fingers, now they want our kidneys.

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:44 PM

Everyone got some skin in this game.

the_nile on September 4, 2009 at 1:46 PM

And to think Barry is worried about “Big Tonsil”

phreshone on September 4, 2009 at 1:46 PM

Ask not what you can do for your kidney, ask what your kidney can do for your country.

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:48 PM

first tonsils then feet now kidneys what’s next?

SHARPTOOTH on September 4, 2009 at 1:48 PM

Allow people to sell their organs for profit and you’ll never run out.

lorien1973 on September 4, 2009 at 1:48 PM

And what’s with this “You should give up your personal rights for the common good” argument crap?

amerpundit on September 4, 2009 at 1:49 PM

Moral of this story……Don’t die young! There was reason why our Founding Fathers didn’t trust government!

Jakefut on September 4, 2009 at 1:49 PM

Sorry Ed, I don’t agree with the concept of “presumed consent[” it strikes me as wholly unAmerican to seize someone’s body parts at their deaths because the government thinks it makes good policy. How is this different from seizing a person’s property, a car, a house, money, etc.?

This is no different than the government mandating health insurance, or creating government defined health insurance plans. For the record I am an organ donor but its my decision, not the government’s.

It’s my body, not the government’s. What happens to it after death is between me, my family and my God — Barack Obama, the Congress or the “health czar” do not have a role in that decision.

johnsteele on September 4, 2009 at 1:49 PM

Don’t harvest me, bro.

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:41 PM

Winner!

Christian Conservative on September 4, 2009 at 1:50 PM

Spain, for instance, has a “presumed consent” law that allows organ harvesting at death in absence of evidence otherwise.

Who cares what Spain does? America is not Spain. Spain also has nationalized health care. Why not start doing that too?

xblade on September 4, 2009 at 1:50 PM

Call the program Van Bones…now, to find someone to drive it.

Christien on September 4, 2009 at 1:50 PM

Allow people to sell their organs for profit and you’ll never run out.

lorien1973 on September 4, 2009 at 1:48 PM

I don’t know… I think I would be devastated if I found out what price my brain would go for.

Daggett on September 4, 2009 at 1:51 PM

Spain, for instance, has a “presumed consent” law that allows organ harvesting at death in absence of evidence otherwise.

Who cares what Spain does? America is not Spain.Spain also has nationalized health care. Why not start doing that too?

xblade on September 4, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Speaking of Transplants:

Sept. 20: “The People’s Republic of China is celebrating 60 years of hard core communism…by raising the flag of that communist country on the south lawn of the White House on September 20.” (jbs.org, Sept. 3, 2009). “While the flags of many nations are flown at the White House when dignitaries of those countries visit, this seems to be the first time a foreign nation’s flag will be hoisted to celebrate that country’s founding, communist or not.”

Sanmon on September 4, 2009 at 1:52 PM

When I am given a say-so on who gets or doesn’t get my organs, I will consent.

Don’t want my kidney saving a Susan Atkins, a death row convict, a convicted rapist, a convicted pediphile.

Till then, I’ll just take them to the grave, thank you very much.

marybel on September 4, 2009 at 1:52 PM

How is this different from seizing a person’s property, a car, a house, money, etc.?

johnsteele on September 4, 2009 at 1:49 PM

It’s not. But Ed’s argument seems to boil down to, “But it would provide so many more organs!”

Yes, and ObamaCare would provide insurance to so many more people. We don’t do things just for a ridiculous sense of the “common good” at the expense of rights, property, and quality.

amerpundit on September 4, 2009 at 1:52 PM

repeat after me— “I belong to obama, I belong to obama”

rjoco1 on September 4, 2009 at 1:52 PM

First they cost us an arm and a leg, then our fingers, now they want our kidneys.

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:44 PM

Fingers aren’t optional. People like to bite them off.. remember!

upinak on September 4, 2009 at 1:52 PM

And Sunstein is also the moron who thinks that animals should be able to file lawsuits. Liberalism really is a mental disorder.

johnsteele on September 4, 2009 at 1:53 PM

Allow people to sell their organs for profit and you’ll never run out.

lorien1973

Selling organs baaaad….stealing organs gooooood.

xblade on September 4, 2009 at 1:53 PM

I’d like to opt out of behavioral economics.

Ted Torgerson on September 4, 2009 at 1:53 PM

ObamaCare= Go into hospital for a sprained ankle, wake up 2 days later in a hotel bath-tub full of ice with a scar where your kidney used to be.

Urban legend? Not anymore.

portlandon on September 4, 2009 at 1:53 PM

I think Cass should start the ball rolling by extricating one of his organs now, before he passes on. After all, he sound like a d*ck to me.

savvydude on September 4, 2009 at 1:53 PM

“You’ll take my organ when you pry it from my cold dead fingers”

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:53 PM

So by the ‘presumed consent’ logic, if my neighbor dies, I can go into her house and take all her stuff before the body is cold because she didn’t decline that I could in writing before she died?

Monica on September 4, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Monica on September 4, 2009 at 1:54 PM

She never expressly said you couldn’t, right? Go ahead then! Rights be damned. It’s for the common good!

amerpundit on September 4, 2009 at 1:55 PM

Everyone should donate their organs upon death. This is a slippery slope. The Should must not become a Must.

My other concern is that this will become a crutch when we should pump funds into medical research (stem cell is part of this research) that will allow the growth of organic replacement organs or artificial organs.

Stem cell research is quiet possibly a fountain of perpetual youth.

Holger on September 4, 2009 at 1:55 PM

He’s dangerous enough as it is.

Akzed on September 4, 2009 at 1:56 PM

Does this plan come with a hooker, a knock out drug and a tub full of ice?

Fletch54 on September 4, 2009 at 1:56 PM

Sounds like a case for “Parts: The Clonus Horror”! :O

Orange Doorhinge on September 4, 2009 at 1:56 PM

Why provide care to let people grow old. Their organs are healthier when they are younger.

rjoco1 on September 4, 2009 at 1:56 PM

How about if we sell them when we die and leave the money to our heirs? What’s a body worth these days? Maybe a couple hundred thousand?

huckleberryfriend on September 4, 2009 at 1:57 PM

BS-Same as the stupid laws for posting your land here in ND.
All land is assumed to allow trespassers unless you post the land no trespassing.
So every friggin’ fall we have to make sure our No Trespassing signs are up.
SD doesn’t do this. All land is assumed private unless posted.
Why do I have to put signs on my stuff? If it isn’t your stuff, it’s somebody else’s & you have no right to it.
So pray tell my WHY must people be burdened with making sure their organs will not be harvested?!
Pure anadultered crap.

Badger40 on September 4, 2009 at 1:57 PM

Can’t the govt already harvest organs from living donors under Kelo?

I see a new job for Van Jones – keeping the white organ harvesters from bamboozling folks out of their kidneys.

rw on September 4, 2009 at 1:57 PM

Pure aunadultered crap.

Badger40 on September 4, 2009 at 1:58 PM

After this presidency, the one organ nobody’s gonna want is my liver.

TXUS on September 4, 2009 at 1:58 PM

Soon, the only time you will have privacy and control over your own body will be in regards to abortion.

jukin on September 4, 2009 at 1:59 PM

We probably wouldn’t have an organ shortage if the federal government didn’t make it against the law to be paid for it. With liberal judges promoting the legal theory that the government has no business legislating morality, what’s the constitutional justification for that?

Socratease on September 4, 2009 at 2:00 PM

My heart goes out to those in need of an organ donation. I am currently listed as a VOLUNTARY organ donor. However, if this administration were to pass a “presumed consent” law, I would immediately make every effort to make it clear that I do not want to be an organ donor. I think this idea of “nudging” people into organ donation is outright barbaric.

bitsy on September 4, 2009 at 2:00 PM

Soooooo let’s see…..the government now owns your body and can harvest you unless you say no. And Ed has no problem with this? How many 20 or 30 year old think about this thing? what of family wishes etc. The government does not “own” the property of the idividual unless he has a will. that “property” goes to his heirs. Why would the government say they own it. And if they harvest the organs who gets paid. Is not the organs not the property of the heirs and should not they be offered to the highest biddder?

Slippery slope here. It is your body in life and it should be your body in death unless you give permission.

unseen on September 4, 2009 at 2:01 PM

Community organ-izing.

LibTired on September 4, 2009 at 2:01 PM

I have a feeling we are about hear a lot more about Cass that is going to be much more controversial than this issue…but since you brought this up…The government has no right over any part of my body and should not assume that they do!

d1carter on September 4, 2009 at 2:01 PM

Van Jones gonna harvest Them Bones

Christien on September 4, 2009 at 2:01 PM

Organleggers!!

Didn’t the SF author, Larry Niven, write a series of short stories on this subject?

Fred 2 on September 4, 2009 at 2:01 PM

Can’t the govt already harvest organs from living donors under Kelo?

rw on September 4, 2009 at 1:57 PM

Oh my I hadn’t even thought about that application of Kelo!

I can seriously see someone bringing that up.
Wait for it…..

Badger40 on September 4, 2009 at 2:01 PM

After this presidency, the one organ nobody’s gonna want is my liver.

TXUS on September 4, 2009 at 1:58 PM

I’ve never been a drinker but I have been having more ‘settle my frazzled nerves’ margaritas on the weekends in the past few months. Coincidence?

Monica on September 4, 2009 at 2:02 PM

We probably wouldn’t have an organ shortage if the federal government didn’t make it against the law to be paid for it. With liberal judges promoting the legal theory that the government has no business legislating morality, what’s the constitutional justification for that?

Socratease on September 4, 2009 at 2:00 PM

You dont have the right to sell it , but the gov has the right to take it…

the_nile on September 4, 2009 at 2:03 PM

Soon, the only time you will have privacy and control over your own body will be in regards to abortion.

jukin on September 4, 2009 at 1:59 PM

Which is strange bcs they should be reversing their position on the abortion issue with this problem in mind. Only instead of throwing the fetuses in the trash can, let’s just groww them in a tank under some sort of stasis so that we may eventually use them for spare parts.

Badger40 on September 4, 2009 at 2:03 PM

“You’ll take my organ when you pry it from my cold dead fingers

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:53 PM

FIFY

John Deaux on September 4, 2009 at 2:04 PM

Waiting for NARAL, Planned Parenthood & friends to issue an outrageously outraged statement saying “keep your laws off my body.”

Yup, any minute now.

OhioCoastie on September 4, 2009 at 2:04 PM

Barack the body snatcher.

the_nile on September 4, 2009 at 2:04 PM

Monica on September 4, 2009 at 1:54 PM

It’s more pernicious than that. It’s based on the idea that man is a creature of habit and filled with misconceptions, but if he knew what was good for him, he’d change his behavior. Rather than force him to do what’s best for him, they simply change the rules and then require him to act to reinstate the status quo. An example would be requiring employers to enroll all employees into 401(k) retirement plans and make payroll deductions unless the employee opts out. The assumption that the individual is not a rational calculator of his own self-interest undermines the basis of our liberty. Taken to its logical conclusion it doesn’t lead to theft of your neighbor’s estate, it leads to ever growing nanny state laws designed to protect us from ourselves. Once that is the norm we will not be a free people.

Ted Torgerson on September 4, 2009 at 2:04 PM

D@mned organ bandits!

“Badges? We don’t need no stinkin’ badges!…..”

JoeinTX on September 4, 2009 at 2:04 PM

“You’ll take my organ when you pry it from my cold dead fingers”

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:53 PM

Read that very carefully and try not to laugh.

thomasaur on September 4, 2009 at 2:05 PM

Fingers aren’t optional. People like to bite them off.. remember!

upinak on September 4, 2009 at 1:52 PM

And I raise my middle one to the Obamination Administration. What are we going to change Patrick Henry’s words to give me liberty…or a healthy kidney upon your death. What’s next when life becomes art and we are all extras in the movie Coma?

PatriotPete on September 4, 2009 at 2:05 PM

you’re right, he thinks everything is free in this market he has created

bluegrass on September 4, 2009 at 12:21 PM

Sonofabisket. I did not think of Kelo’s application. It is perhaps the worse court decision in history. I didn’t read the full decision.

If your body is your own private property as even Liberals agree that it is then yes, the State has a right to take that property and transfer it to someone else.

The problem is that this application violates the Spirit of the 13th Amendment

MFers. The loss of property rights spells the deathknell of the Republic…

Holger on September 4, 2009 at 2:05 PM

Doesn’t the pro-choice crowd have a slogan:

“Keep your laws off my body”

Does it apply in this situation too?

rbj on September 4, 2009 at 2:06 PM

You put your right kidney in
you put your right kidney out

You put your right kidney in, and the Admin takes it out!

You do the Flippy Floppy, and then they kick you out.

That’s how they take you out!

upinak on September 4, 2009 at 2:06 PM

I would give a kidney to my daughter if she needed one.
All others please submit your bid.

SKYFOX on September 4, 2009 at 2:06 PM

Spare Parts Czar.

Knucklehead on September 4, 2009 at 2:07 PM

Barack the body snatcher.

the_nile on September 4, 2009 at 2:04 PM

Nice

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 2:07 PM

For once I don’t have to worry. After giving blood most of my adult life, I was told that having had chemotherapy and radiation to never give blood or donate any body part. Heck most of the time mosquitos don,t even bother me.

fourdeucer on September 4, 2009 at 2:09 PM

I’ve never been a drinker but I have been having more ’settle my frazzled nerves’ margaritas on the weekends in the past few months. Coincidence?

Monica on September 4, 2009 at 2:02 PM

A friend of mine who owns a chain of clubs says alcohol sales have been up, considerably, since January. He thinks there’s a link.

TXUS on September 4, 2009 at 2:09 PM

Allow people to sell their organs for profit and you’ll never run out.

lorien1973 on September 4, 2009 at 1:48 PM

We have a winner. The rest of you can go home.

BTW, while you have (and should continue to have) the RIGHT not to donate your organs, unless you have religious objections the human thing — and certainly the Christian thing — to do is to make them available, whether your heirs are compensated or not.

RegularJoe on September 4, 2009 at 2:09 PM

Allow people to sell their organs for profit and you’ll never run out.

lorien1973 on September 4, 2009 at 1:48 PM

I will ebay an ovary if you ebay a testie.

upinak on September 4, 2009 at 2:10 PM

Monica on September 4, 2009 at 1:54 PM

It’s more pernicious than that. It’s based on the idea that man is a creature of habit and filled with misconceptions, but if he knew what was good for him, he’d change his behavior. Rather than force him to do what’s best for him, they simply change the rules and then require him to act to reinstate the status quo. An example would be requiring employers to enroll all employees into 401(k) retirement plans and make payroll deductions unless the employee opts out. The assumption that the individual is not a rational calculator of his own self-interest undermines the basis of our liberty. Taken to its logical conclusion it doesn’t lead to theft of your neighbor’s estate, it leads to ever growing nanny state laws designed to protect us from ourselves. Once that is the norm we will not be a free people.

Ted Torgerson on September 4, 2009 at 2:04 PM

I understand that, believe me. I was just making the outright theft comparison to be silly. Plus my neighbor has some really nice stuff. ;)

Monica on September 4, 2009 at 2:11 PM

Currently, the US medical system presumes that people opt out of organ donation at death unless they explicitly opt into it

Who gives the “US medical system” any authority to make any presumptions about this?
Why no mention as to whether “presumed consent” is constitutional? In what other areas is “presumed consent” the status quo?

Ed, in an age when all of our institutions are decaying and corrupted by liberalism, from the very top to the very bottom, the notion that the people would and should voluntarily give over any more authority to some institution is abhorent to me. Even if the institutions weren’t liberal, it should be abhorent. That being said, aside from religious objections, organ donation should be considered seriously by all, and I will consider it.

JiangxiDad on September 4, 2009 at 2:11 PM

Organomics.

portlandon on September 4, 2009 at 2:12 PM

So DR Ezekiel’s health plan will cost an arm and a leg. what’s not to like?

Parts is parts.

seven on September 4, 2009 at 2:13 PM

I understand that, believe me. I was just making the outright theft comparison to be silly. Plus my neighbor has some really nice stuff. ;)

Monica on September 4, 2009 at 2:11 PM

Boob-plants????

upinak on September 4, 2009 at 2:14 PM

oh, I forgot, for Cass Sunnenstein to say this, in his capacity as a gov’t official, chills me—but I ‘aint dead yet, so hands off my organ!

JiangxiDad on September 4, 2009 at 2:14 PM

Nothing like a government who sees death bed patients as expensive to keep alive, but profitable if dead.

Conservative Voice on September 4, 2009 at 2:14 PM

Cash for Tickers?
Cash for Cadavers?

This is becoming an organ grinder’s lullaby.

Holger on September 4, 2009 at 2:15 PM

Nothing like a government who sees death bed patients as expensive to keep alive, but profitable if dead.

Conservative Voice on September 4, 2009 at 2:14 PM

there is nothing like reverse psych or thinking outside of the coffin. Right?

upinak on September 4, 2009 at 2:15 PM

“You’ll take my organ when you pry it from my cold dead fingers”

faraway on September 4, 2009 at 1:53 PM

Read that very carefully and try not to laugh.

thomasaur on September 4, 2009 at 2:05 PM

I read it that way the first time. Failed at not laughing. But then, I have a prevert streak in me a mile wide. :p

bikermailman on September 4, 2009 at 2:16 PM

Well why not go all the way and just create babies for spare parts?

katiejane on September 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM

Well, if Patrick Ewing needs a spare head, Michelle Obama’s could be harvested.

marklmail on September 4, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Adult stem cell research is quite possibly a fountain of perpetual youth.

Holger on September 4, 2009 at 1:55 PM

FIFY. (Not attempting to threadjack, and please don’t take it as that.)

Frequent blood donor and registered bone marrow donor here, FWIW…

Mary in LA on September 4, 2009 at 2:18 PM

Here’s the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aclS1pGHp8o

the_nile on September 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM

Thanks for the vid and a look into future ObamaCare.

shick on September 4, 2009 at 2:18 PM

Sweet.

I got a reason to smoke, drink, eat fatty foods and engage in unsafe sex.

Holger on September 4, 2009 at 2:18 PM

My liver is producing unmitigated gall!

GrannyDee on September 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM

I agree with transplantation and I wish more people would consent to the use of their organs for such purposes after they die. Yet I never signed the consent form on my license. Why? Because of stories like yesterday’s item in The Telegraph (prematurely making people die…how is that not killing, by the way?), or the fact that rationing in the Canadian medicare system creates an incentive for me to be shut off before I am actually dead. This was my fear.

So, I tell my family that, if I really am dead, they are welcome to use my organs, but to make sure I’m dead, because God gave me life, and I intend to have every minute He gave me. Since I don’t trust the doctors, given the situation, I have not signed.

This is why I dislike the presumed consent idea.

Blaise on September 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM

Sweet.

I got a reason to smoke, drink, eat fatty foods and engage in unsafe sex.

Holger on September 4, 2009 at 2:18 PM

You watched the Hitler porn didn’t you?

upinak on September 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM

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