Will: Let’s get out of Iraq, too

posted at 4:15 pm on September 3, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Earlier this week, George Will touched off a firestorm of criticism on the Right when he urged Barack Obama to pull American troops out of Afghanistan.  In tomorrow’s column, already live at Washington Post’s website, Will completes the circle by demanding a withdrawal from Iraq as well:

Since U.S. troops withdrew from Iraq’s cities, two months have passed, and so has the illusion that Iraq is smoothly transitioning to a normality free of sectarian violence. Recently, Gen. Ray Odierno, commander of U.S. troops there, “blanched” when The Post’s Greg Jaffe asked him if the war is “functionally over.” Odierno said:

“There are still civilians being killed in Iraq. We still have people that are attempting to attack the new Iraqi order and the move towards democracy and a more open economy. So we still have some work to do.”

No, we don’t, even if, as Jaffe reports, the presence of 130,000 U.S. troops “serves as a check on Iraqi military and political leaders’ baser and more sectarian instincts.” After almost 6 1/2 years, and 4,327 American dead and 31,483 wounded, with a war spiraling downward in Afghanistan, it would be indefensible for the U.S. military — overextended and in need of materiel repair and mental recuperation — to loiter in Iraq to improve the instincts of corrupt elites. If there is worse use of the U.S. military than “nation-building,” it is adult supervision and behavior modification of other peoples’ politicians.

More than 725 Iraqis have been killed by terrorism since the June 30 pullback of U.S. forces from the cities. All U.S. combat units are to be withdrawn from the country within a year. Up to 50,000 can remain as “advisers” to an Iraqi government that is ostentatious about its belief that the presence of U.S. forces is superfluous and obnoxious.

Will sets a conundrum for his readers in the final paragraph:

If, in spite of contrary evidence, the U.S. surge permanently dampened sectarian violence, all U.S. forces can come home sooner than the end of 2011. If, however, the surge did not so succeed, U.S. forces must come home sooner.

The gist of Will’s column is that we have failed to fix the corruption and sectarian hostility in Iraq after the surge succeeded in at least calming it down.  Will assumes that any further engagement will not result in improvement.  However, the surge itself was opposed on the same argument, which turned out to be false.  Greater engagement actually solved problems and saved lives.  The problems that Will cites mostly came from our disengagement under the terms of the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), which many of us worried would be premature.

Will’s argument assumes that we have no real national interest any longer in what happens in and to Iraq.  The Shi’ites are hopelessly aligned with Iran, the Kurds do not share Iraqi nationalism with the rest of the population, and the Sunni remain resentful of their minority status and lack of power.  All of these are real problems, but they aren’t necessarily hopeless.  The engagement strategy launched by George Bush and Robert Gates demonstrated that we can make progress, as long as we take the mission seriously and remain focused on long-term goals, rather than throw our hands up in the air when politicians become corrupt and countries develop minds of their own.

Interestingly, on Afghanistan, Will gets rebutted by that arch-conservative … David Frum:

American and NATO prestige has been pledged to Afghanistan. A collapse of Afghanistan into warlordism or a narco-state (the likeliest outcome of U.S. withdrawal) would be very costly. And the fact that the West has not done very well in Afghanistan to date does not doom us to failure forever. …

Our goals in Afghanistan are properly modest. Nobody is looking to elevate Afghanistan into a model anything. Those who serve in Afghanistan all understand the concept of “good enough.” Next door, Tajikistan is the second poorest country in Eurasia. Yet its population is literate, and it does not host international terrorist groups. Tajikistan is not much of a democracy and it has suffered from civil war, but it has groped its way to stability and it has not been accused of the kinds of human-rights abuses committed in Uzbekistan. We can look to that kind of future for Afghanistan, if we get the military strategy right.

Is the new strategy right? I won’t predict. But it is new, and it deserves a trial before we reach pessimistic conclusions. Wars are ugly and expensive. But losing wars is worse, and worse in ways often impossible to predict in advance. That’s a lesson I learned as a young conservative back in the 1970s—in very large part by reading the columns of George F. Will.

In both theaters, we have to ask ourselves if the US has significant stakes in the outcomes, and in both theaters, we do.  Not even Will disputes that.  Next, we have to ask ourselves if we have the resources and the stamina to see the missions through to the outcomes.  We do, although neither are limitless, nor should they be.  But if we do have significant stakes in the outcomes, especially on national security, then we should have enough stamina to try new strategies and diplomatic initiatives before sounding retreat.

There may come a time when we have tried and failed at every possible way to achieve our mission.  In neither theater has that happened as yet.  Unlike some of Will’s other critics, I have no reason to question his motives, which I assume spring from the highest sense of patriotism and love of country.  That doesn’t make Will correct in his analysis, though, which suffers from a sufficient consideration of the negative consequences of premature retreat, as Frum points out in his answer.

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Comment pages: 1 2

The Dems will pull the plug eventually, and the bloodbath and Islamic regime that follows will be all Bush’s fault.

Akzed on September 3, 2009 at 4:19 PM

Aw, HotAir “hearts” David Frum.

Having said that, it’s hard to tell whether George Will is have a “Walter Cronkite” moment or whether he’s do dismayed by the prospect of what an Obama administration might to our military effort that he’s calling for an out now.

BigD on September 3, 2009 at 4:21 PM

Can we abandon Washington, D.C. too George?

IntheNet on September 3, 2009 at 4:22 PM

People like Will never stop and consider what the result would be if we just leave. Never. They assume that it can not be any worse…so who the hell cares.

The truth is a vacuum would be created and into would likely step chaos and with that more violence and more AlQaida.

It took years and years for the US to pacify nations like Korea and Japan.

Besides, chances are if we just leave, we will have to go back..and then what?

Terrye on September 3, 2009 at 4:22 PM

Well once you get the fevah it’s hard to stop. What’s next Will, S Korea, Japan, Germany, Bulgaria, Britain? Who knows where the fevah will take him next.

jarodea on September 3, 2009 at 4:22 PM

Is Will relevant anymore? NO.

cubachi on September 3, 2009 at 4:22 PM

So, what is the end point? When do we leave? Or do we?

a capella on September 3, 2009 at 4:23 PM

Stupid right wing domestic terrorists. It’s all their fault!

I think anyone, and everyone will have blame laid at their feet. Everyone, but Obama, and his liberal ilk.

capejasmine on September 3, 2009 at 4:23 PM

George Will vs. David Frum = Blue on Blue

Both these clowns should just STFU imho

Norwegian on September 3, 2009 at 4:23 PM

If we tuck our tails and wave a white flag, we will never know security. We must stay.

TXMomof3 on September 3, 2009 at 4:23 PM

I was about to trash Will but I think I agree with “BidD” and don’t know if he’s a quitter or a patriot trying protect our soldiers from an inept government.

rplat on September 3, 2009 at 4:23 PM

Maybe George Will can write an article about Obama and the Democrats cutting the Defense Budget

… while ACORN gets Billions.

Seven Percent Solution on September 3, 2009 at 4:24 PM

I was about to trash Will but I think I agree with “BidD” and don’t know if he’s a quitter or a patriot trying protect our soldiers from an inept government.

rplat on September 3, 2009 at 4:23 PM

I meant “BigD” not “BidD” . . . sorry about that.

rplat on September 3, 2009 at 4:25 PM

Gee, if only there was a large show of support from people in oppressed middle east countries that we could have encouraged and nurtured. Like if maybe many people took to the streets and had expressed such a huge desire to change the current government that some even died in the process of the government trying to suppress them.

That would have been a great opportunity to help bring the middle east a little closer to democracy. Too bad it never happened.

Oh look, a puppy again!

DrAllecon on September 3, 2009 at 4:25 PM

Americans want us out, Iraqis want us out.

Democracy anyone?

The Calibur on September 3, 2009 at 4:28 PM

This coming from guy who thumbs his nose at people who wear blue jeans and enjoy video games. Tell it to someone who cares.

jawkneemusic on September 3, 2009 at 4:29 PM

America: fighting to protect Sharia Law-based Islamic states.

Something’s wrong with that fundamental strategy.

It should be:

America: destroying the global Jihad wherever we find it.

Even if it is in the new Mohammedan states we witlessly set up.

profitsbeard on September 3, 2009 at 4:29 PM

Interestingly, on Afghanistan, Will gets rebutted by that arch-conservative … David Frum

Which just goes to show that no matter how hawkish say Lieberman is, he’s still not a conservative.

Upstater85 on September 3, 2009 at 4:31 PM

I think it is “this is a bad time to loose a job ism” so he wants to say controversial things in order to attract eyeballs and get the ratings up on shows and in publications where he appears.

crosspatch on September 3, 2009 at 4:33 PM

Methinks George Will, in his own delicate, sensibility-enhanced way, is trying to ask The Question That Dares Not Be Asked:

Do Republicans and Conservatives OWN the War On Terror?

To answer this question the correct way changes a whole lot of assumptions about who supports what in society.

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:34 PM

George needs to getalife and go back to writing about baseball.

Del Dolemonte on September 3, 2009 at 4:34 PM

At least no one has claimed that George Will is eating his Ron Paul Nutter-Butter.

Upstater85 on September 3, 2009 at 4:34 PM

My favorite wacko street poster during my days in NYC was this one: “US out of North America.” With Will on a roll like this, let me just say, “US out of Chevy Chase, Maryland.”

Attila (Pillage Idiot) on September 3, 2009 at 4:34 PM

Beside the point, Iranian in on Lockerbie 1988 terrorism:

A recently declassified intelligence document from the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) argues that the key Iranian figure behind the 1988 downing of Pan-Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland was Ali Akbar Mohtashemi, the former Iranian ambassador to Syria and later Minister of the Interior. The attack led to the killing of 270 innocent civilians.

link @ Drudge to doregold.blogspot

So if we get out of Afghanistan and out of Iraq, somehow everything will turn up roses. “9/11 was our fault after all.” Just ask Iran.

George Will has certainly earned his service award from Obama.

maverick muse on September 3, 2009 at 4:34 PM

George Will has never served his country – he’s a pen and that’s it. He’s an increasingly boring pen too.

George Will is the kid with the pencil protector in his pocket that you used to make fun of in elementary school. George Will needs to leave wars to the big boys.

The Heritage Foundation estimates that 4,900 of our brave men gave their lives on the beaches at Normandy in ONE DAY. That is more than we’ve lost in Iraq in the many years we’ve been there. I’m very glad that George Will wasn’t around the day after D-Day – because he’d have been mortified enough to write a column proclaiming that we needed to leave Europe to Hitler.

I know that George Will likes baseball – but I wouldn’t want to play on his team – he’s a quitter.

One only has to realize what will happen when we leave Afghanistan and Iraq. AQ and Radical Islam will declare victory – and, hell – they’ll be right.

George Bush didn’t make us safe with EIT’s – he made us safe by taking the war to the terrorists. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are “meat grinders” for the AQ terrorists. While they pour their resources into defeating our professional soldiers – THERE …

They are unable to throw resources at our kids in kindergarten … HERE.

And that is the bottom line.

We lost almost three thousand people in a few hours on the morning of September 11th, 2001. Overwhelmingly – they weren’t soldiers. They were fathers, mothers, grandparents, sons and daughters. There were many who were just kids.

And having served with many of the heros who died in Iraq and Afghanistan serving this nation – I’d like to respectfully tell George Will to muck off – my comrades didn’t die for a wasted cause and they would smack little Georgie right in the kisser and take his pocket protector if they were here today.

HondaV65 on September 3, 2009 at 4:34 PM

Lets get out of the banking business..and the healthcare business, and while we’re at it, let get out of education and environmental bullseet business. ..and how about getting out of the victim mentality business. Bet that would save a few pesos..and speaking of pesos, lets get out of the protect the illegals business.

Itchee Dryback on September 3, 2009 at 4:35 PM

I count myself as more or less a fan of Will most of the time. I do think he’s got his head up in the clouds at times, though (blue jeans, anyone?)

I do know that Will has been at least somewhat critical of the Iraq mission for a LONG time, probably springing from his basic conservative dislike of “nation building.” I recall his complete skepticism on the eve of Bremer’s departure from Bagdhad and the turnover of control, his question at the time was “turn it over to WHO??” The gist of it being that there was no legitimate Iraqi entity at that time.

One thing he HAS been excellent on lately though is criticizing the rush to socialized medicine. Takes on every dopey lib that shows up on This Week With Curious George, including Krugman and Robert Reiccccchhhhhhhh! and shuts them down in very quick fashion. He seems to have a way to tell them they are full of Shiite in a way they have never been able to discount.

JamesLee on September 3, 2009 at 4:35 PM

The Dems will pull the plug eventually, and the bloodbath and Islamic regime that follows will be all Bush’s fault.

Akzed on September 3, 2009 at 4:19 PM

Yep. Obama presides over a defeat of American forces but it is Bush’s fault.

Kind of like how Nixon got us out of Vietnam with a victory, then Congress deprived the South of air power and the South fell, but it is Nixon’s fault.

Is it just me or are Americans dumb?

I do got one complaint about GW. He exposed the utter weakness laying in America. Our forces can kick anyone’s butt, but our loyal citizens ffith column are laying in wait to defeat America and turn it into some semblance of the old Soviet Union at a moment’s notice.

Okay, two complaints. Bush invaded the wrong country, he should’ve invaded the other America.

Holger on September 3, 2009 at 4:35 PM

More than 725 Iraqis have been killed by terrorism since the June 30 pullback of U.S. forces from the cities.

How many Americans citizens have been killed in American cities and why aren’t Democrat inner city mayors ever held responsible?

NoDonkey on September 3, 2009 at 4:35 PM

Do Republicans and Conservatives OWN the War On Terror?

To answer this question the correct way changes a whole lot of assumptions about who supports what in society.

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:34 PM

I am guessing that you have to be at least 18 to be on this site (or maybe not??), so I am presuming that you are aware of something called 9/11?

BigD on September 3, 2009 at 4:37 PM

Go buy some more yellow pants, George!!!!!

mobydutch on September 3, 2009 at 4:38 PM

BigD on September 3, 2009 at 4:37 PM

The question I posed has absolutely, positively, nothing to do with whether or not the War On Terror was correct.

Read the question again, please.

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:38 PM

Iraq is different from Afghanistan, obviously…..but I know we promised the Iraqis that we would establish an environment that for them that would allow them to make a choice and establish their own future…decide their fate themselves.

Did we do this in Afghanistan? I don’t think so, at least I never heard it. The only thing I do know about Afghanistan is that we are supposed to be there to defeat the attackers of 9/11, and that mutated into killing Taliban.

I still have never heard a definitive mission statement regarding Afghanistan, so it’s really hard to support whatever our government wants to do there. Especially now, knowing what our fascist clown for a president has in store for US, I have no idea what this dickhead wants for Afghanistan, so I’m not going to blindly support this cretins silent objectives.

I’ll always support our troops though, and the generals on the ground.

Spiritk9 on September 3, 2009 at 4:39 PM

Iraq is different from Afghanistan, obviously…..but I know we promised the Iraqis that we would establish an environment that for them that would allow them to make a choice and establish their own future…decide their fate themselves.

Did we do this in Afghanistan? I don’t think so, at least I never heard it. The only thing I do know about Afghanistan is that we are supposed to be there to defeat the attackers of 9/11, and that mutated into killing Taliban.

I still have never heard a definitive mission statement regarding Afghanistan, so it’s really hard to support whatever our government wants to do there. Especially now, knowing what our fascist clown for a president has in store for US, I have no idea what this d1ckhead wants for Afghanistan, so I’m not going to blindly support this cretins silent objectives.

I’ll always support our troops though, and the generals on the ground.

Spiritk9 on September 3, 2009 at 4:39 PM

The War on Terror is supposed to be America’s war. But the Left has successfully painted it as our War. If they loose our War it hurts us politically.

Holger on September 3, 2009 at 4:40 PM

I guess the risk of man-caused disasters has fallen to a level where overseas contingency operations are no longer necessary, eh, Georgy-boy?

Why don’t you take in a ball game and chill?

Bruno Strozek on September 3, 2009 at 4:41 PM

Read the question again, please.

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:38 PM

Does the GOP own the war on terror? Well, we’ve only really had one since GWB was in office, and he got alot of Democrat support when it came to actually voting for things like funding and the surge, out of political necessity for the Dems.

Maybe I don’t get your nuance.

BigD on September 3, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Boy, George is really upset over people picking on him about the jeans thing isn’t he?

Rocks on September 3, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Wouldn’t it be funny if Will made these statements just to mess with the minds of the anti-war left? Can you imagine how they must be gagging on the notion of agreeing with George Will? I mean, he’s been on Fox!!

Actually, I just want to see Will on Dancing with the Stars paired with Cindy Sheehan.

MochaLite on September 3, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Maybe I don’t get your nuance.

BigD on September 3, 2009 at 4:42 PM

It’s not nuanced; it’s based in cold, hard political reality. Check out Holger@4:40PM for more elaboration.

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:44 PM

The billions we’re spending trying to civilize these people would be much better spent on coal gassification and US oil shale development. If we stop sending them money, they won’t be able to afford international terrorism.

I’d rather pay $100 a barrel for oil from US shale deposits than $50 a barrel for islamic (or Russian) oil.

W should have done it, BTW, but he was way too good of friends with the Saudis.

funky chicken on September 3, 2009 at 4:44 PM

Krauthammer beats Will on credibility. Petreaus beats them both on military matters. Lets see what the General thinks.

KW64 on September 3, 2009 at 4:45 PM

George Will is OK. If he wants to run the country, it’s OK with me.

JiangxiDad on September 3, 2009 at 4:46 PM

funky chicken on September 3, 2009 at 4:44 PM

This.

The Calibur on September 3, 2009 at 4:47 PM

It’s all about politics for Will.

steveegg on September 3, 2009 at 4:47 PM

The War on Terror is supposed to be America’s war. But the Left has successfully painted it as our War. If they loose our War it hurts us politically.

Holger on September 3, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Sad, but perhaps true. What’s even more disheartening is that the Left wouldn’t do an all out withdrawal — they’d keep our men and women over their to “fight” a PC war…

Upstater85 on September 3, 2009 at 4:48 PM

What’s wrong? Are Afghans and Iraqis wearing too many jeans?

Clark1 on September 3, 2009 at 4:48 PM

I’d rather pay $100 a barrel for oil from US shale deposits than $50 a barrel for islamic (or Russian) oil.

W should have done it, BTW, but he was way too good of friends with the Saudis.

funky chicken on September 3, 2009 at 4:44 PM

You really harm your credibility when you respond like this. It’s not good for your sense of logic, either.

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:48 PM

Up to 50,000 can remain as “advisers” to an Iraqi government that is ostentatious about its belief that the presence of U.S. forces is superfluous and obnoxious.

Me thinks Diana West has been whispering in George Will’s ear although it has taken a very long time for him to hear. He could at least give her some credit and maybe a hat tip to Hugh Fitzgerald and Robert Spencer too.

Our Iraq strategy now a tale of ‘diminishing returns’

Question for Americans: How can we as a nation even consider using our military for another “surge” in Afghanistan when the “surge” in Iraq has left little more imprint on the sands of Mesopotamia than the receding tide?

This, to clarify, is not the antiwar Left writing. I am writing from a pro-military, anti-jihad point of view that has long seen futility in the U.S. nation-building strategy in Iraq, and now sees futility in the rerun in Afghanistan. Problem is, the same blind spot afflicts both strategies: the failure to understand that an infidel nation cannot fight for the soul of an Islamic nation. This, in essence, is what President Bush and now President Obama have ordered our troops to do.

I don’t suggest these missions are ever considered in such terms, which implicitly acknowledge intractable differences between Judeo-Christian-based Western cultures and Islamic cultures. Doing so, of course, is a taboo thing — a grievous violation in the PC realm where decisions are made. But the omission helps answer my opening question. I seriously doubt Americans would approve of re-running the surge in Afghanistan if there were an honest reckoning of the religious, cultural and historical reasons why the surge failed to achieve its promised results in Iraq.

This is not to say the U.S. military failed. On the contrary, the U.S. military succeeded, as ordered, to bring a measure of security and aid to a carnage-maddened Islamic society. Given U.S.-won security, surge architects promised us, this same Islamic society was supposed to then respond by coming together in “national reconciliation.” They were wrong. Not only did Iraqis fail to coalesce as a pro-American, anti-jihad bulwark in the Islamic world (the thoroughly delusional original objective), they have also failed to form a minimally functional nation-state. And the United States is now poised to do the same thing all over again in Afghanistan.

I write this as the volume of talk of an Afghanistan “surge” is getting louder, drowning out the quiet undercurrent of eye-opening reports now emerging on post-surge Iraq. Late last month, for example, the New York Times reported on a bluntly revealing memo written by Col. Timothy Reese, an adviser to the Iraqi military’s Baghdad command. In it, Reese urgently argues that the United States has “reached the point of diminishing returns” in Iraq due, among many other things, to endemic corruption (“the stuff of legend”), laziness, weakness and culture of “political violence and intimidation.”

Reese considers Iraqi Security Forces (ISF) “good enough” — just — to keep the Iraqi government from toppling. That’s reason enough, he writes, to leave early, by August 2010 instead of December 2011. Reese describes a “fundamental change” in the U.S.-Iraq relationship since the June 30 handover — a “sudden coolness,” lack of cooperation, even a “forcible takeover” by ISF of a checkpoint.

While Iraq will still “squeeze the U.S. for all the `goodies’ that we can provide,” he writes, tensions are increasing and “the potential for Iraqi on U.S. violence is high now and will grow by the day.”

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 4:49 PM

I’ll just say this – if Obama quits Iraq and Afghanistan – I, and many others will rightly claim that Bush had us on a victory slope for these wars and Obama lost them. Is the situation in Afghanistan bad? Yep – but you and I both know that George Bush would have fought that war until he won it – even if his approval ratings blew a hole threw the bottom floor of hell itself.

So if Ogabe plays the little girl – and runs – you better believe that I and many others will blame him for the loss. All America will blame him for the loss. Losing fights causes bad morale in the American voter – just ask Jimmy Carter about the Iranian Hostage crisis. He got turned out of office after only one term – not just because of Iran – but because he generally depressed Americans about the state of this nation.

Sure – I’d love to see Ogabe turned out the same way but …

I lost too many good shipmates over there. We need to fight on for them.

I’ll proudly give Ogabe the credit for winning and doing the right thing – if he wins it and does the right thing.

I’m somehow doubting he will.

HondaV65 on September 3, 2009 at 4:49 PM

Is it possible Will is just beering us here? Giving Obama a taste of his own medicine by being the nails on the chalkboard that Senator Obama and his media sycophants were during the Bush administration, being the marching drum for getting out of wars that the President has shown support for?

Red Cloud on September 3, 2009 at 4:51 PM

An aide to the UK’s defense secretary has resigned in protest over the way the Afghan war is being handled.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_8230000/newsid_8237000/8237041.stm

JiangxiDad on September 3, 2009 at 4:52 PM

The War on Terror is supposed to be America’s war. But

the Left has successfully painted it as our War. If they loose our War it hurts us politically.

Holger on September 3, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Sad, but perhaps true. What’s even more disheartening is that the Left wouldn’t do an all out withdrawal — they’d keep our men and women over their to “fight” a PC war…

Upstater85 on September 3, 2009 at 4:48 PM

OK. Obama did call Afghanistan “a war of necessity” and that’s on record. I’m not understanding how an Obama war failure hurts the GOP. Not that I’m interested in any aspect of war failure, thanks.

BigD on September 3, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Fortunately, Will can only urge. I do think it’s beyond time to hear the President describe and defend his policy (if any) in Iraq and Afghanistan, though. After all, his antiwar stridency was what made Obama and, presumably what propelled him to the presidency. I just can’t wait to hear him talk about “staying the course”, since these are Obama’s wars to win or lose now. If he does, Cheney may even agree with him! Imagine the popping heads in leftyville should that happen!!

littleguy on September 3, 2009 at 4:53 PM

“Me thinks Diana West has been whispering in George Will’s ear although it has taken a very long time for him to hear. He could at least give her some credit and maybe a hat tip to Hugh Fitzgerald and Robert Spencer too.”

She could whisper in a few other folks’ ears, too. She also understands The Question That Dares Not Be Asked.

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:53 PM

The Left cannot let us Conservatives to do anything Good. They can’t allow us a single victory. They cannot say anything good about us. They are out to utterly destroy us.

It is our War, like it or not. It should be America’s war but as we all know, Liberals subscribe to a different America.

They cannot allow our troops to WIN. You do not let your enemy win battles, engagements, firefights. You win by denying them victories and defeating them at all turn.

If they loose our War it hurts us even though they are the ones who lost it. They hurt us on the National Security front with it. It is the war we sent this Country into that is lost.

The Left is trying to take the National Security/Military issue from us Republicans, it has been our ballywick since before Reagan. They pretty much handed it to us with Johnson’s war in ‘Nam and Carter’s mismanagement of Iran. Reagan capitalized on the weakness of Democrats on National Defense.

It’d be one less issue we can beat them up with…

Holger on September 3, 2009 at 4:55 PM

“The billions we’re spending trying to civilize these people would be much better spent on coal gassification and US oil shale development. If we stop sending them money, they won’t be able to afford international terrorism.”
-
Second
-
The cause was just, but you’re no longer allowed to fight a war the way it used to be done. Now you have to nation build. This nation is about to go under. These other nations need to sink or swim.
-
9/11 would not have happened if we had control of our borders, who is in the country, and a sane immigration policy. Pull back and shut down immigration. Get rid of all the America-haters here on Student Visas. Rebuild our armed forces at home. Put all the effort of these foreign wars into breaking up cells at home. Desperate times call for simple, practical measures.

Simona on September 3, 2009 at 4:55 PM

More than 725 Iraqis have been killed by terrorism since the June 30 pullback of U.S. forces from the cities.

Keeping things in perspective, about 3000 Americans have been murdered since then. Will is an ass.

sheikh of thornton on September 3, 2009 at 4:55 PM

I’m not understanding how an Obama war failure hurts the GOP. Not that I’m interested in any aspect of war failure, thanks.

BigD on September 3, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Conservatives and Republicans cannot expect that the lessons of Vietnam don’t apply to them.

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:56 PM

“It is our War, like it or not.”

Sure about that, Holger?

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:56 PM

Interestingly, on Afghanistan, Will gets rebutted by that arch-conservative … David Frum

Well we all know that David Frum went quite mad some time ago.

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 4:56 PM

Simona on September 3, 2009 at 4:55 PM

Enough of that pragmatism please.

/s

The Calibur on September 3, 2009 at 4:57 PM

I am sensing troll activity.

BigD on September 3, 2009 at 4:58 PM

the source of this, is the lie that true conservatism is Military Isolationism at heart, one gigantic lie. The only period it was ever remotely isolationist was after WW1, certainly never in the first century plus up until WW1.

jp on September 3, 2009 at 4:58 PM

She could whisper in a few other folks’ ears, too. She also understands The Question That Dares Not Be Asked.

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:53 PM

Why Hindus and Mormons are so screwed up?

No wait! That’s not it. Give me some time and it will come to me.

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 4:59 PM

George Will has never served his country – he’s a pen and that’s it.

HondaV65 on September 3, 2009 at 4:34 PM

The “Chickendove argument” makes an appearance.

But if we do have significant stakes in the outcomes, especially on national security, then we should have enough stamina to try new strategies and diplomatic initiatives before sounding retreat.

There may come a time when we have tried and failed at every possible way to achieve our mission. In neither theater has that happened as yet.

That’s what the surge was–a new strategy attempted prior to retreat. No new strategies are on the table here—none, to my knowledge, exist. What else can be done? What else will be done? And why would we expect a better outcome if nothing new is done?

hicsuget on September 3, 2009 at 4:59 PM

Conservatives and Republicans cannot expect that the lessons of Vietnam don’t apply to them.

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:56 PM

Should there ever be another ‘Nam and should Republicans hose it up, then certainly those lessons would apply.

littleguy on September 3, 2009 at 5:00 PM

The lack of public support is making it untenable to stay for another 10 years in either arena. We probably don’t have the resources to do it either. It is going to be political suicide for any president to advocate that so they won’t. Will is just recognizing the obvious, if we can’t see it through until the end, then we might as well take the pain now and get out. These Muslim countries are hellholes, all we can do is threaten and contain them it seems. They don’t seem to be interested in becoming part of civilization, at least not as we define it.

echosyst on September 3, 2009 at 5:04 PM

The lack of public support is making it untenable to stay for another 10 years in either arena

yet we are still in Korea, Japan, germany after all these years.

jp on September 3, 2009 at 5:05 PM

Man I am loving me some Will this week. I have been saying this for about 2 years. We are spinning our wheels in these places and to what end? To keep terrorist out of Afghanistan? Wasn’t 911 planned primarily in Hamburg? Wasn’t the flight school that trained the hijackers (to fly, not kill people) here in the US? Are you guys really under the impression that a terrorist network needs a country like Afghanistan just to recruit say 19 guys, give them knives, and a few hours of flight training? I am all for kidnapping and torturing the hell out of any suspected terrorist, but couldn’t CIA and Special Forces do that without 150000 soldiers engaged in nation building. I supported Bush after 911 on both Iraq and Afghanistan, but support at the time did not mean support for an open ended commitment with no real time table. Support for removing Saddam and the Taliban is not the same as support for propping up Maliki or Karzai. Let me ask you hawks out there, Where does this end, what does victory look like there? How many lives and dollars ultimatley is this worth

snoopicus on September 3, 2009 at 5:06 PM

“It is our War, like it or not.”

Sure about that, Holger?

BradSchwartze on September 3, 2009 at 4:56 PM

That old myth that Powell had — if you break it you own it — that’s a myth. You break it, you decide whether you own it. You don’t have to go in and own it.
- Maj. Gen. Paul Vallely (Retired)

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 5:07 PM

They don’t seem to be interested in becoming part of civilization, at least not as we define it.

echosyst on September 3, 2009 at 5:04 PM

A million or so people in Iran seemed to disagree. But Obama was voting “present” at the time. An opportunity wasted.

DrAllecon on September 3, 2009 at 5:07 PM

Will is just recognizing the obvious, if we can’t see it through until the end, then we might as well take the pain now and get out.

That “pain” isn’t just pride, we can’t really “just leave” for ALOT of reasons unless we really want to turn the rest of the world into the hell hole that is the Middle East. This thing called Oil and unwatched Jihad.

and they advocate this just as Kuwait is continuing to be a good ally, electing Women to office and what not, the UAE explodes with Capitalism, etc. Nope, lets just leave and let the Enemy declare Victory, Iran advance unabatted and no watch whatsover on the Resource that fuels all Western Economies: Oil.

So what if Iran shuts down the Strait of Hormuz, or if an Islamic extreme state emerges in Iraq to control its Oil and Water sources?

jp on September 3, 2009 at 5:08 PM

The George Will who did debate prep for Ronald Reagan against Jimmy Carter in 1980 would have a fun time going up against the foreign policy notions of George Will today (Will always was opposed to George H.W. Bush, and at times was rather cool to his son; even though it’s Barack Obama in office right now those negative feelings towards all things Bush may be coloring his logic in this situation).

jon1979 on September 3, 2009 at 5:08 PM

yet we are still in Korea, Japan, germany after all these years.

jp on September 3, 2009 at 5:05 PM

But there you have good women, good beer and peace. Oh, and no ISLAM!

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 5:08 PM

A million or so people in Iran seemed to disagree. But Obama was voting “present” at the time. An opportunity wasted.

DrAllecon on September 3, 2009 at 5:07 PM

yep, along with the developments in Kuwait, UAE, Indonesia, etc.

jp on September 3, 2009 at 5:09 PM

But there you have good women, good beer and peace. Oh, and no ISLAM!

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 5:08 PM

which is EXACTLY what they said about the Shinto Religion 50 yrs ago. Word for word, the “Shinto Religion is not capable of Democracy”

jp on September 3, 2009 at 5:11 PM

Is anybody keeping track of how many terrorists were let go versus how many were captured during Obama`s reign?

albill on September 3, 2009 at 5:12 PM

These Muslim countries are hellholes, all we can do is threaten and contain them it seems. They don’t seem to be interested in becoming part of civilization, at least not as we define it.

echosyst on September 3, 2009 at 5:04 PM

Let Afghanistan go — music to my ears, particularly given the source is no Hate-America-First professor or Moveon-dot-org-nik, but a lifelong patriotic conservative warrior. “There’s nothing to win there,” he explained, engaging in an all-too-exotic display of common sense. “What do you get for it? What’s the return? Well, the return’s all negative for the United States.”

The general continued: “This doesn’t mean giving up battle. What it means is you transition to a more realistic, affordable strategy that keeps them (the jihadist enemy) from spreading.”

Such a strategy, Vallely explained, relies on “the maximum use of unconventional forces,” such as Navy SEALS and other special forces, who can be deployed as needed from what are known in military parlance as “lily pads” — outposts or jumping-off points in friendly countries (Israel, Northern Kurdistan, India, Philippines, Italy, Djibouti … ) and from U.S. aircraft carrier strike groups. Such strike groups generally include eight to 10 vessels “with more fire power,” the general noted, “than most nations.” These lily pads become “bases we can launch from any time we want to,” eliminating the need for massive land bases such as Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, by now a small city of 20,000 American personnel who continuously need to be supplied and secured at enormous expense.

“There’s no permanent force,” the general said. “That’s the beauty of it.” We watch, we wait and when U.S. interests are threatened, “we basically use our strike forces to take them out, target by target.” This would work whether the threat came from Al Qaeda, Pakistani nukes or anything else.

He continued: “This idea that we’re going to go in and bring democracy to these tribal cultures isn’t going to work. If we have a problem with terrorist countries, like Iran, it’s a lot cheaper to go in and hit them and get back out.” In other words, don’t give up the battle; just give up the nation-building. “It’s up to somebody else to build nations,” the general said. “Not us.”
- Diana West

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 5:13 PM

I might consider pulling out,on the condition that the next time we’re attacked or provoked,we go all in waging classic Jominian warfare on the perps and the entities who aided and abetted.No one has ever won any conflict by pussy footing around the fact that you win wars by killing as many enemy nationals as it takes to win.

McBride on September 3, 2009 at 5:13 PM

If we have a problem with terrorist countries, like Iran, it’s a lot cheaper to go in and hit them and get back out.” In other words, don’t give up the battle; just give up the nation-building. “It’s up to somebody else to build nations,” the general said. “Not us.”

Hey, why not, it worked so well in A’stan pre 9/11.

sheikh of thornton on September 3, 2009 at 5:15 PM

jp on September 3, 2009 at 5:11 PM

lol

Never mind that the majority of those country’s citizens want us to leave.

The Calibur on September 3, 2009 at 5:15 PM

George needs to getalife and go back to writing about baseball.

Del Dolemonte on September 3, 2009 at 4:34 PM

George IS getalife and his femininity is showing through.

Christian Conservative on September 3, 2009 at 5:18 PM

which is EXACTLY what they said about the Shinto Religion 50 yrs ago. Word for word, the “Shinto Religion is not capable of Democracy”

jp on September 3, 2009 at 5:11 PM

Stop treating Sharia-supreme Iraq like post-war Japan

It isn’t just that the total defeat and utter devastation of Japan nullifies the comparison with Iraq (which it does). There is something else. There is the completely different U.S. approach to Japan’s animating, warlike state religion of Shintoism, which, not incidentally, bears striking similarities to the animating, warlike state religion of Islam.

In 1945, our government was of one mind regarding state Shintoism. Lewis quotes Secretary of State James F. Byrnes, who wrote: “Shintoism, insofar as it is a religion of individual Japanese, is not to be interfered with. Shintoism, however, insofar as it is directed by the Japanese government, and as a measure enforced from above by the government, is to be done away with. … There will be no place for Shintoism in the schools. Shintoism as a state religion — National Shinto, that is — will go. … Our policy on this goes beyond Shinto. … The dissemination of Japanese militaristic and ultra-nationalistic ideology in any form will be completely suppressed.”

And it was, with fabulous results.

Obviously, there have been no analogous U.S. efforts to “de-jihadize” Islamic public culture even as the United States has spent lives, limbs, money and years trying, essentially, to stop the jihad in the Islamic Middle East — not even, to take a manageable example, in the U.S.-funded Palestinian Authority, where state-run media continue to incite Islamically motivated violence against Jews and Americans. And then there are all those U.S.-fostered constitutions that enshrine Sharia law — just the sort of ideological concession our forebears would never have made.

Bottom line? History shows that the conditions that drove the model transformation of Japan do not exist today with regard to the Islamic Middle East. We’re going to need another strategy — for starters, an immigration policy and new laws to halt the creep of Sharia — to ward off the Islamization of the West.

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 5:18 PM

Plus if we pull out of Afghanistan & Iraq and wait for the bastards to come out and declare victory, let them lower their gaurd and come out of hiding, and then shoot a cruise missle up their arses from a 1000 mile away,

snoopicus on September 3, 2009 at 5:19 PM

We need to get out of both places soon as possible. Our defeat is inevitable long as Obama is in the White House and Dems hold more than a third of Congress. Remember Vietnam? Johnson’s War cost us 58,000 American lives and we gained nothing but the filling of Arlington National Cemetery with more heroes.

I have no doubt what our troops are able to do, they’re the creme d’ la creme of America. But with Dems in charge of anything more than picking up trash at a city park, we’re killing our own people with what is almost friendly fire.

Then again, the Dems haven’t been friendly to our troops since JFK.

Liam on September 3, 2009 at 5:20 PM

Holy hell. We can’t even paint our enemies as enemies or call our current wars in Afghanistan and Iraq wars on Afghanistan and Iraq. Or, wars against radical Islam.

We lost in both Iraq and Afghanistan when we let those countries write the own constitutions with Islam being the main law and religion of the land.

Don’t believe me? Google it.

E.g. from Iraq’s constitution …


Article 2:
First: Islam is the official religion of the State and is a foundation source of
legislation:
A. No law may be enacted that contradicts the established provisions of Islam
B. No law may be enacted that contradicts the principles of democracy.
C. No law may be enacted that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms
stipulated in this Constitution.
Second: This Constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the
Iraqi people and guarantees the full religious rights to freedom of religious belief
and practice of all individuals such as Christians, Yazidis, and Mandean Sabeans.
Article 3:
Iraq is a country of multiple nationalities, religions, and sects. It is a founding and active
member in the Arab League and is committed to its charter, and it is part of the Islamic
world.

BowHuntingTexas on September 3, 2009 at 5:21 PM

I think Will’s point is that since Obama really doesn’t have a “plan” except for the one in his head, why should we continue to sacrifice troops.

GarandFan on September 3, 2009 at 5:22 PM

Gonna keep asking until I get a sensible answer:
Who is supposed to surrender to the U.S. after the glorious victory in Afghanistan?

corona on September 3, 2009 at 5:23 PM

Exit Strategy:
1). Make Iraq the 51st state and Afganistan the 52nd state.
2). Send in Acorn and elect Democrats to office.
3). Send in the environmentalists to stop oil drilling.
4). Offer food stamps, section 8 housing, universal health care and legalize abortion.
5). Turn the IRS loose and begin audits.
6). Send in the lawyers and start filing lawsuits.
7). Bring in the Walmarts, plenty of Walmarts.
8). Ban SUV’s.
9). Add Seinfeld, Mash reruns, The View, and MTV to their TV lineup, with Arabic subtitles.
10). Write ‘affordable’ mortgages and lots of insurance policies.
11). Install phones in every home and send in the telemarketers.
12). Spam, lots of spam.
13). Start collecting sales tax, income tax, excise tax, property tax, inheritance tax, wellhead tax, etc
14). Porn, lots of porn.
15). Build some bridges in the desert.
16). Send in FEMA to rebuild war torn communities.

If that doesn’t kill their will to fight, nothing will.

MasterChef on September 3, 2009 at 5:23 PM

Go back to treating all of this as a law enforcement issue instead of nation building adventures.

Spathi on September 3, 2009 at 5:24 PM

George needs to getalife and go back to writing about baseball.

Del Dolemonte on September 3, 2009 at 4:34 PM

George IS getalife and his femininity is showing through.

Christian Conservative on September 3, 2009 at 5:18 PM

Actually, George’s Goldwater may be showing through.

No putatively conservative politician today has the idealism of a Goldwater or brings together idealists like Bozell and Hess. Even the one area where latter-day professional conservatives seem most idealistic, in their support for grandiose schemes of democratization and empire-building abroad, there is a startling contrast. Bozell and Hess, each driven by a vision of a more just America—the one vision radically Catholic, the other radically libertarian—came to oppose the Vietnam War. Late in life, Goldwater described that intervention [Vietnam] as “a useless war,” and Tanenhaus speculates that Goldwater, like his friend Bill Buckley, would sooner or later have opposed Bush’s war in Iraq: “Presumably Goldwater would have seen this, but you never know.” The idealism of the Goldwater movement did infect its foreign policy—a look at Conscience of a Conservative will confirm that. But ultimately, the ideals that Goldwater stood for were not nation-building and empire.

Today, nation-building and empire, together with K-Street politics, is about all that animates the Republicans who claim to be following in Goldwater’s footsteps. They’ve lost what the 1960 and 1964 Goldwater movements were really all about, and they won’t rediscover what they’ve lost by furrowing their brows wondering if Goldwaterism was really purely libertarian or fusionist. Goldwater himself was a man of the American West, and his legacy can be claimed by either libertarians or traditionalists—if they can put the principled spirit of the old movement before the emoluments of politics.
- Daniel McCarthy

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Please forgive the off topoic post but
Olympia snowejob needs to be stopped !
Call her office and say you are from Maine and represent a group of seniors against obamacare. It doesn’t matter if you don’t live in Maine. Find a zip code and town name off the net and call her now. Or say you are a moderate dem who voted for her, and you are against obamacare or any public option. We need to burn her local Maine offices as well as Washington. Call her now before she caves to the libs. Call her now!!!!

texaninfidel on September 3, 2009 at 5:29 PM

“late in life”, in his actual political career he wanted to Nuke Vietnam.

Its not about the “nation building” and everything to do with Oil(security) and Jihad

jp on September 3, 2009 at 5:30 PM

Gonna keep asking until I get a sensible answer:
Who is supposed to surrender to the U.S. after the glorious victory in Afghanistan?

corona on September 3, 2009 at 5:23 PM

Mohammad?

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 5:30 PM

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 5:28 PM

The GOP is useless–ineffective, impotent, and has come to stand for nothing. They have said almost nothing against Obamacare and everything else. They seem comfy and cozy with second-rate status–it’s their home.

The days of Goldwater and Reagan are over in the GOP. Conservatives like me and so many others here are on our own. That’s why so many talk of armed revolution.

I’m waiting for TX or AZ to secede. Then I get a passport, pack up a few things and my cat, and head West in hope of getting a visa into the new Republics.

Liam on September 3, 2009 at 5:34 PM

Economic Libertarianism and Trade, is not possible without a Strong US Military(or like the UK of old before us), period. If we isolate, and in this case given Jihad a victory, along with getting their hands on the resource that builds Western Economies, we are absolutely shooting outselves in the foot.

jp on September 3, 2009 at 5:34 PM

texaninfidel on September 3, 2009 at 5:29 PM

Libs lie and do things like that. I would never.

Snowe never caves to anything. She shamelessly votes with Dems most every time. No caving on her part. She’s right at home, as are those Maine citizens who keep electing her.

Liam on September 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM

“late in life”, in his actual political career he wanted to Nuke Vietnam.

I am well aware of that earlier bent. Goldwater said, half seriously, “I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle”, but he then came to realize that the Vietnam war was “useless”.

Its not about the “nation building” and everything to do with Oil(security) and Jihad

jp on September 3, 2009 at 5:30 PM

No. It has pretty much all transmuted into “Nation Building”. I have already, in past threads, demonstrated that by quoting the brass’s own words.

MB4 on September 3, 2009 at 5:37 PM

CBS News of hazing @ US Embassy in Kabul

I question the timing, major distraction to provoke a knee-jerk response to blame our military, as well as the headline that should include the name of the CONTRACTED outsourced firm that Obama’s administration is using, specifically HILLARY’S RESPONSIBILITY: ArmorGroup North America, owned by Wackenhut. Without that in the headline, the smear is applied INCORRECTLY towards our Marines.

Embassy’s own security guards are alleging shocking work conditions that put American lives at risk.

In numerous e-mails, the guards describe a crisis in discipline and morale, understaffing, sleep deprivation, “threats and intimidation.” One guard refers to a group of guards and supervisors from the security contractor ArmorGroup as “sexual predators, deviants running rampant.”

Guards provided dozens of graphic photos and videos depicting shocking scenes of hazing and humiliation by superiors, most of them too lewd to show. The guards recount a climate of fear and coercion where those who refuse to participate are retaliated against, even fired.

The State Department contracts with a private security firm – ArmorGroup North America, owned by Wackenhut.

maverick muse on September 3, 2009 at 5:39 PM

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