No savings in preventive medicine: study

posted at 9:30 am on September 1, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Barack Obama has insisted that his overhaul of the health-care system will pay for itself and save money, largely through bigger and supposedly more efficient preventive care.  His favorite example for this paradigm is diabetes, a disease that requires a lifetime of maintenance care, usually aggressively approached.  However, the National Diabetes Foundation’s new study on aggressive maintenance shows that, while the approach works well in controlling the disease, it does not save money except for the youngest of patients (emphasis mine):

Preventive services for the chronically ill may reduce health-care costs, but they are unlikely to generate the kind of fantastic savings that President Obama and other Democrats have said could help pay for an overhaul of the nation’s health system, according to a study being published Tuesday.

Using data from long-standing clinical trials, researchers projected the cost of caring for people with Type 2 diabetes as they progress from diagnosis to various complications and death. Enrolling federally-insured patients in a simple but aggressive program to control the disease would cost the government $1,024 per person per year — money that largely would be recovered after 25 years through lower spending on dialysis, kidney transplants, amputations and other forms of treatment, the study found.

However, except for the youngest diabetics, the additional services would add to overall health spending, not decrease it, the study shows.

“There’s no free lunch here. Prevention will not pay for everything. But it’s not as expensive as it looks at first blush,” said Michael J. O’Grady, a senior fellow at the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago, and one of four authors whose work is being published on the Web site of Health Affairs, a leading journal of health policy research.

But the argument wasn’t that adding services wouldn’t hike costs as much as some people imagined.  Obama argued that adding services would cut costs, making his new system less expensive, thanks to the savings of limiting expensive interventions later in life.  That’s simply not true, as even a simple analysis would have showed, because not all diabetics end up on dialysis machines or get amputations.  Diabetes can be managed by most diabetics well enough to avoid the most serious complications, although a small minority of Type 1 diabetics (my wife was among them) have inconsistent reactions to insulin; they’re called “brittle diabetics.”  Even aggressive management won’t hold off those complications.

Aggressive management works well for the patients, but it costs more.  There is no way around that fact.  If you access the medical care system more often, it drives up costs, in both the short- and long-term.

This should come as no surprise to anyone, least of all Congress.  Three weeks ago, the CBO told Congress the exact same thing, based on their own studies — and they had another point to explain as to why real prevention programs will always cost more than they save:

In making its estimates of the budgetary effects of expanded governmental support for preventive care, CBO takes into account any estimated savings that would result from greater use of such care as well as the estimated costs of that additional care. Although different types of preventive care have different effects on spending, the evidence suggests that for most preventive services, expanded utilization leads to higher, not lower, medical spending overall.

That result may seem counterintuitive. For example, many observers point to cases in which a simple medical test, if given early enough, can reveal a condition that is treatable at a fraction of the cost of treating that same illness after it has progressed. In such cases, an ounce of prevention improves health and reduces spending—for that individual. But when analyzing the effects of preventive care on total spending for health care, it is important to recognize that doctors do not know beforehand which patients are going to develop costly illnesses. To avert one case of acute illness, it is usually necessary to provide preventive care to many patients, most of whom would not have suffered that illness anyway. Even when the unit cost of a particular preventive service is low, costs can accumulate quickly when a large number of patients are treated preventively. Judging the overall effect on medical spending requires analysts to calculate not just the
savings from the relatively few individuals who would avoid more expensive treatment later, but also the costs for the many who would make greater use of preventive care. As a result, preventive care can have the largest benefits relative to costs when it is targeted at people who are most likely to suffer from a particular medical problem; however, such targeting can be difficult because preventive services are generally provided to patients who have the potential to contract a given disease but have not yet shown symptoms of having it.

The Obama argument on cost savings through preventive programs amounts to a shell game, a Ponzi scheme.  Any promised payoffs would come decades later, far too late to dump the system or recover the costs of adopting a national health-care system, while the government spends all of the money up front.  Obama’s conclusions fly in the face of common sense and now two studies showing the opposite conclusion.  The savings are as illusory as the White House’s initial deficit projections and promises of economic boom from their stimulus package.

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2

but but but… it makes a good soundbite

gatorboy on September 1, 2009 at 9:31 AM

This is the problem. What he’s asking our country to pay for is air. Insurance is nothing if you don’t need it.

So what 47 million or whatever number you want to say don’t have insurance. . . if they don’t get sick, they won’t need it. Even if they do get sick, they might be better off paying out of their pocket.

If they wanted to provide a basic catastrophic plan to the indigent. Or if they wanted to provide a guarantee issue plan to people who didn’t qualify for private insurance, that would be fine.

But they don’t want that. They want the taxpayer to pay for the Cadillac plan that the union forces the big 3 to pay for (which incidentally put them out of business).

ThackerAgency on September 1, 2009 at 9:33 AM

Well, duh.

Daggett on September 1, 2009 at 9:34 AM

Let me make one thing perfectly clear………

I don’t know what the fu*k I’m doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bluegrass on September 1, 2009 at 9:34 AM

The Obama argument on cost savings through preventive programs amounts to a shell game, a Ponzi scheme. Any promised payoffs would come decades later, far too late to dump the system or recover the costs of adopting a national health-care system, while the government spends all of the money up front. Obama’s conclusions fly in the face of common sense and now two studies showing the opposite conclusion.

So, When do you think he’s going to come off his vacation schedule and hold a presser announcing that he and his team blew it with the projections and they will be starting over again on healthcare reform?

highhopes on September 1, 2009 at 9:34 AM

“Unexpected”………..via the MSM.

JoeinTX on September 1, 2009 at 9:35 AM

“Preventive care” and the State is a scary combination.

Attacking it on cost is good, but it’s an issue of liberty as far as I’m concerned.

When the savings don’t materialize, were just going to get more and more control of our personal lives via threats of withheld health services, or worse, direct totalitarian control via some means we never thought we would see in the United States.

forest on September 1, 2009 at 9:38 AM

In an “unexpected” revelation, the sky is also blue.

search4truth on September 1, 2009 at 9:40 AM

CBO again, really Ed?

We all know the CBO is racist. Stop using them as a source.

Joe Caps on September 1, 2009 at 9:41 AM

So you mean it only saves lives? Darn!

crr6 on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

B-b-b-but Ted Kennedy!!

CDeb on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

Aggressive management works well for the patients, but it costs more. There is no way around that fact. If you access the medical care system more often, it drives up costs, in both the short- and long-term.

This should come as no surprise to anyone, least of all Congress

How could we end up with so many economically illiterate people in Congress.

And there is yet another factor to consider:
with preventative care helping more people live longer, Medicare & Social Security will be forced to make more payments to those people. Thus increasing the costs of those social welfare programs. So either taxes will have to go up more to compensate (and higher taxes are a drag on economic development) or else benefits will have to be cut (raise the age limit/means testing).

Dear Leader either:
1) knows this and is thus lying to the American public
or
2) is so fundamentally economically illiterate that He’s a danger to the Republic.

rbj on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

We can realize significant savings in our medical costs by
cutting our the funding for useless programs. These include
drug treatment such as methadone and counseling, medical treatment for substance abusers directly related to drug abuse. Many people have doctors prescribing unneeded medications, kind of like a back door to drug abuse. Also the grant programs give millions to groups who do little or nothing to advance medicine and some are out and oput rip offs! We need to investigate these areas to see where we can reduce our current medical costs.

sonnyspats1 on September 1, 2009 at 9:43 AM

So you mean it only saves lives? Darn!

crr6 on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

It was touted as a cost saving measure dipshit.

Joe Caps on September 1, 2009 at 9:43 AM

Obama’s argument on that one, I knew, was false. HMOs learned that one long ago.

However, it does lead to healthier lives, and that is worth quite a lot.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM

How could we end up with so many economically illiterate people in Congress.

rbj on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

If your are economically literate you can get a job that pays as weel as congreess and be with your family.

Again, our fedral government is TOO big. Congressmen spend too much time there. We need to have congress in session for only up to 4 months a year.

WashJeff on September 1, 2009 at 9:46 AM

So you mean it only saves lives? Darn!

crr6 on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

Clueless…absolutely clueless….keep posting we love you liberals.
We know we are smarter…and you just keep confirming it.

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 9:46 AM

Obama’s argument on that one, I knew, was false. HMOs learned that one long ago.

However, it does lead to healthier lives, and that is worth quite a lot.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM

I appreciate the concession on this one, but why would you trust these guys with a nationalized plan when they are up there blatantly BSing to get it passed?

In addition to my ideological opposition to the State running things like health insurance, I just don’t trust these people.

forest on September 1, 2009 at 9:47 AM

Who the f*** voted for this POS?

We aren’t a year into this guy, his administration hasn’t faced any crisis situations, and yet he and his administration can’t get basic matters of governance correct.

When are they going to stop with the liberal nonsense and just govern?

BuckeyeSam on September 1, 2009 at 9:48 AM

However, it does lead to healthier lives, and that is worth quite a lot.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM

There is no proof to that…it has never been proved. The people with the best health care, the most preventive health care, do not live any longer.
It isn’t health care that allows you to live longer, it is taking care of your own health.
The gov. has nothing to do with how healthy of a life you live.

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 9:49 AM

I appreciate the concession on this one, but why would you trust these guys with a nationalized plan when they are up there blatantly BSing to get it passed?

In addition to my ideological opposition to the State running things like health insurance, I just don’t trust these people.

forest on September 1, 2009 at 9:47 AM

I was having this discussion with my girlfriend yesterday. Even if I supported Obama’s goals 100%, I still do not think I would be a supporter of him simply because it is quite apparent that he is a sleazy con man that transparently deceives and lies for political gain.

Joe Caps on September 1, 2009 at 9:50 AM

crr6 you idiot

Our Current Healthcare System saves more lives here, both our citizens and other countries’, than any other Healthcare System in History.

kingsjester on September 1, 2009 at 9:51 AM

So you mean it only saves lives? Darn!

crr6 on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

it won’t even do that when the system starts running further in to debt and they start rationing care.

SHARPTOOTH on September 1, 2009 at 9:51 AM

Simple math. Providing preventative care at a smaller per person cost to a much larger pool of patients does not mean lower overall costs.

Vashta.Nerada on September 1, 2009 at 9:53 AM

However, it does lead to healthier lives, and that is worth quite a lot.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM

But it also costs a lot more and your President has been consistently lying about that point. It would have been one thing to make the case that we need to do this, even though it will be expensive, because it improves the health of Americans. The filthy liar in the White House has stated the opposite- that he can do all this without raising costs a single cent. He needs to be held accountable for his hypocrisy.

highhopes on September 1, 2009 at 9:53 AM

I appreciate the concession on this one, but why would you trust these guys with a nationalized plan when they are up there blatantly BSing to get it passed?

In addition to my ideological opposition to the State running things like health insurance, I just don’t trust these people.

Healthcare is just healthcare, and I can’t see that it makes much difference as to who offers it. It’s just insurance.

I never saw his approach in positioning this as cost-savings as being too persuasive. I DO think that there could be some cost-savings in streamlining paperwork. And I definitely know that there’s potential for eliminating some of the grosser aspects of double testing, etc.

The fear stuff? I just don’t have the same perspective. It’s clear that we have to have standards, but the insurance companies already have those in place. They won’t give a liver to an alcoholic, for example. Where the fights usually happen are in the area of new treatment options, and most of the insurance plans already won’t cover those.

I would assume, if we had public option, that it would be a lot like Medicaid now, which is helpful but certainly no cadillac plan.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM

Start with Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel. He has already been appointed to two key positions: health-policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget and a member of Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research.

Emanuel bluntly admits that the cuts will not be pain-free. “Vague promises of savings from cutting waste, enhancing prevention and wellness, installing electronic medical records and improving quality are merely ‘lipstick’ cost control, more for show and public relations than for true change,” he wrote last year Health Affairs Feb. 27, 2008).

Savings, he writes, will require changing how doctors think about their patients: Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, “as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others” (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008).

Link

tdau1997 on September 1, 2009 at 9:56 AM

rbj on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

I pick both 1) and 2)

+100 !!!

HomeoftheBrave on September 1, 2009 at 9:57 AM

It isn’t health care that allows you to live longer, it is taking care of your own health.
The gov. has nothing to do with how healthy of a life you live.

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 9:49 AM

To some extent that’s true, but we have way too many people who can’t afford prescriptions now or who can’t even afford to see a doctor when needed. They have to wait until it’s life and death, and that’s unsafe.

Look, I fully admit that I’m very liberal on this policy issue. I think we need reform.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:57 AM

I would assume, if we had public option, that it would be a lot like Medicaid now, which is helpful but certainly no cadillac plan.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM

Bankrupt?

WashJeff on September 1, 2009 at 9:57 AM

It isn’t health care that allows you to live longer, it is taking care of your own health.

well said. Taking a walk every day doesn’t cost a thing and it would lower health care costs if everyone did it. But I don’t want the government legislating my exercise regimen.

ThackerAgency on September 1, 2009 at 9:58 AM

Obligatory Monty Python clip of the future under ChappaquiddiCare.

steveegg on September 1, 2009 at 9:58 AM

The gov. has nothing to do with how healthy of a life you live.

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 9:49 AM

They would like to make our choices for us though.

thomasaur on September 1, 2009 at 9:58 AM

I would assume, if we had public option, that it would be a lot like Medicaid now, which is helpful but certainly no cadillac plan.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM

Such unthinking foolishness is not even worthy of a reply.

rplat on September 1, 2009 at 10:00 AM

So if the government is going to cover preventative medicine, where is my Cash for Treadmills program. Buy me some exercise equipment Uncle Sam!!!

WashJeff on September 1, 2009 at 10:00 AM

But I don’t want the government legislating my exercise regimen.

How could they? It’s not like they are going to install nanny cams around. :)

They already establish health guidelines for all of us. But even private doctors can’t get people to complete rehabilitation programs. Heck, I still know people who won’t complete the antibiotics, although we’ve known since the 1950′s that can lead to relapse.

People will be people. The government can’t change that one.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:01 AM

They would like to make our choices for us though.

thomasaur on September 1, 2009 at 9:58 AM

They are:
- Transfat ban.
- Sugar\Soda Tax
- etc.

WashJeff on September 1, 2009 at 10:01 AM

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/31/video-the-youtube-fisking-of-socialized-medicine-strawman-arguments/

Healthcare is just healthcare, and I can’t see that it makes much difference as to who offers it. It’s just insurance.

I never saw his approach in positioning this as cost-savings as being too persuasive. I DO think that there could be some cost-savings in streamlining paperwork. And I definitely know that there’s potential for eliminating some of the grosser aspects of double testing, etc.

The fear stuff? I just don’t have the same perspective. It’s clear that we have to have standards, but the insurance companies already have those in place. They won’t give a liver to an alcoholic, for example. Where the fights usually happen are in the area of new treatment options, and most of the insurance plans already won’t cover those.

I would assume, if we had public option, that it would be a lot like Medicaid now, which is helpful but certainly no cadillac plan.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM

Watch the video from a post that was here yesterday and try to work on your comprehension as you do.

thomasaur on September 1, 2009 at 10:03 AM

Simple math. Providing preventative care at a smaller per person cost to a much larger pool of patients does not mean lower overall costs.

Vashta.Nerada on September 1, 2009 at 9:53 AM

The filthy liar voted present the day they covered math in school. His irresponsible spending has bankrupt the nation and yet he keeps coming back for more and more. He needs to fail.

highhopes on September 1, 2009 at 10:04 AM

So you mean it only saves lives? Darn!

crr6 on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

Yeah, because Americans are dying in the streets as we type!!!!!eleventy!!one!!!!111!!1

What it will do is provide horrible care to us, our children and grandchildren while saddling us and them with debt they cannot possibly pay back. I don’t know why liberals don’t understand this we cannot possibly afford ObamaCare and we cannot even afford Medicare. This is why Obama has to lie and claim that his plan will save money (the point of Ed’s post) and lie further that his plan will ration care. Socialized medical systems have to dance between crushing debt and denying and rationing care usually doing both (the efficiency of government). There are no savings in administrative costs, there are no savings to be had in a single payer system. Medicare has ~35 trillion in outstanding debt and loses hundreds of billions per year in fraud. Imagine what will happen when the government controls 1/5th of the economy.

gwelf on September 1, 2009 at 10:06 AM

Savings, he writes, will require changing how doctors think about their patients: Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, “as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others” (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008).

This is one of those scary attitudes on the Obama-side of the debate. Old people would be denied coverage because the ROI isn’t up to some government mandated form. The same people who want interrogation of terrorists to include hugs and a good night’s sleep would essentially tell granny to suck it up because she isn’t deserving of that new hip.

highhopes on September 1, 2009 at 10:07 AM

How could we end up with so many economically illiterate people in Congress.

Because people are voted into Congress depending on whose kid/wife they are, whether they are a member of an approved victim group and have taken the usual approved PC views long enough and loud enough, whether they have some sugar daddy’s backing as far as campaign funds, etc.

People don’t get into Congress because they have been successful in ventures outside of politics.

That’s the problem. These people have no idea how the private sector works and when you get down to it, they have no real idea how the government works either, because they have never been in the trenches of government. They would never stoop that low. It’s easy to make policy, it’s hard to execute it.

We have de facto monarchs running this country. And that’s why this Congress and this White House are a complete disaster.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 10:08 AM

So you mean it only saves lives? Darn!

crr6 on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

Way to miss the point. Arguing is hard when none of the facts are on your side, isn’t it?

BadgerHawk on September 1, 2009 at 10:11 AM

Clueless…absolutely clueless….keep posting we love you liberals.
We know we are smarter…and you just keep confirming it.
right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 9:46 AM

Bang Zoom! Right in the kisser!
Great comment!

Chainsaw56 on September 1, 2009 at 10:12 AM

How could we end up with so many economically illiterate people in Congress.

rbj on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

Heh heh…the root of that problem lies in the Constitution. The list of requirements to hold high public office is way too short.

It works like this: We elect a lawyer to the Senate. This person has had no professional experience outside of the legal system. This person in assigned to the Senate Energy Committee, and instantly becomes an EXPERT on energy.

Its no different than saying the janitor at NASA is an expert in astrophysics simply because he works for NASA.

We’ve been witness to the expertise of our elected officials during the “Town Hall” meetings, where they unanimously are unable to address the questions or concerns of their constituents because they don’t have a clue what the issues are, or what the solutions should be.

They are, however, fully aware of what Pelosi and Reid have instructed them to say, which consists of “Aye” when the vote comes.

BobMbx on September 1, 2009 at 10:13 AM

So, When do you think he’s going to come off his vacation schedule and hold a presser announcing that he and his team blew it with the projections and they will be starting over again on healthcare reform?

highhopes on September 1, 2009 at 9:34 AM

Promptly on the 32nd of Never.

Dear Leader either:
1) knows this and is thus lying to the American public
or
2) is so fundamentally economically illiterate that He’s a danger to the Republic.

rbj on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

The correct answer is both.

gonegaltinstl on September 1, 2009 at 10:13 AM

That’s the problem. These people have no idea how the private sector works and when you get down to it, they have no real idea how the government works either, because they have never been in the trenches of government. They would never stoop that low. It’s easy to make policy, it’s hard to execute it.

There’s a lot of truth to that. It still comes down to good judgment, though. They choose to listen to lobbyists, don’t check out their facts first (which was Obama’s mistake here), and micro-manage some stuff or undermanage other stuff.

Here’s a classic example that you conservatives will like. CA pays people to take care of relatives/friends in their homes. The idea was to save money on residential care. They installed the program, and then failed to fund the oversight positions. Therefore, everyone in the world on the take was signing up pretending to be taking care of someone. Old ladies were being used as props! *haha

And no follow-up. Imagine the waste.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:14 AM

So what 47 million or whatever number you want to say don’t have insurance. . . if they don’t get sick, they won’t need it. Even if they do get sick, they might be better off paying out of their pocket.

A lot of those 47 million are young, healthy people who CHOOSE NOT to buy health insurance because they don’t think they need it, and are willing to pay out of pocket for an occasional bout with the flu or a sprained ankle. Many others are already eligible for Medicaid or S-CHIP but CHOOSE NOT to subscribe to it. Why should we cut Medicare benefits to the elderly (who DO need them) to give these people something they don’t want?

Then there are the illegal aliens: If the socialized medicine in their own countries is so great, let them go home and see a doctor if they get sick…

Steve Z on September 1, 2009 at 10:15 AM

Kill the bill. No negotiation, no compromise. Starve the beast (aka government).

gonegaltinstl on September 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM

How could they? It’s not like they are going to install nanny cams around. :)

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:01 AM

They are in Britain. Not that I’m worried about it here (for now), but don’t think it’s impossible in supposedly free societies.

BadgerHawk on September 1, 2009 at 10:17 AM

They are in Britain. Not that I’m worried about it here (for now), but don’t think it’s impossible in supposedly free societies.

Really? For what purpose?

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:19 AM

There’s a lot of truth to that. It still comes down to good judgment, though. They choose to listen to lobbyists, don’t check out their facts first (which was Obama’s mistake here), and micro-manage some stuff or undermanage other stuff.
Here’s a classic example that you conservatives will like. CA pays people to take care of relatives/friends in their homes. The idea was to save money on residential care. They installed the program, and then failed to fund the oversight positions. Therefore, everyone in the world on the take was signing up pretending to be taking care of someone. Old ladies were being used as props! *haha
And no follow-up. Imagine the waste.
AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:14 AM

No one pretends to believe that the free market is perfect, but competition requires businesses to be efficient or fail.

Government can simply raise taxes and have all the waste and inefficiency it wants.

Chainsaw56 on September 1, 2009 at 10:20 AM

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:14 AM

This is an illustration of my earlier point.

We have people making government policy, who have never been in the position of executing government policy.

These are two very different things.

And the people who make government policy are advised by who? People who have executed the policy?

No. 23 year old Ivy League graduates who have accomplished nothing in their lives thus far. Or career staffers, who have tons of experience being career staffers. Or lobbyists, who have a narrow perspective of self-interest.

Our government doesn’t work because our representatives have no idea what it is they are doing.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 10:22 AM

Government can simply raise taxes and have all the waste and inefficiency it wants.

Well, so they wish. In CA, we absolutely clobbered every single tax proposition with OVER 60%. There was a crystal clear message sent by voters.

Bankrupt? Too bad. Figure it out. (Arnold held a garage sale this past weekend. Seriously. They sold a bunch of property.)

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:22 AM

Healthcare is just healthcare, and I can’t see that it makes much difference as to who offers it. It’s just insurance…

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM

I couldn’t disagree more. All health care is not created equal, and same goes for insurers. And while related to each other, we shouldn’t conflate “health care” with “health insurance”. Care is the actual treatment you get, which will likely go downhill and be delayed if the people providing it are under a system where the State is calling the shots on how much and how quickly they get paid. That’s why some doctors already opt out of accepting patients insured by the government right now. The State getting more deeply involved in this will dissuade people from investing massively in becoming doctors and possible drug companies from investing massively in new drugs etc. why bother if the State is just going to beat you down on price while failing to lift a finger to ease malpractice liability.

We are likely to end up in a situation where the government “gives” more people health insurance, but we will have far less actual healthcare, at lower quality, to go around.

forest on September 1, 2009 at 10:22 AM

Really? For what purpose?

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:19 AM

To monitor parents whom the states deems are not doing a good enough job.

BadgerHawk on September 1, 2009 at 10:23 AM

Healthcare is just healthcare, and I can’t see that it makes much difference as to who offers it.

Food is just food, and I can’t see that it makes much difference as to who offers it.

Why do we need all these competing farmers, transportation systems and food outlets? Why not just have a single system, controlled by the government, to ensure uniform quality of service?

Loxodonta on September 1, 2009 at 10:24 AM

Government can simply raise taxes and have all the waste and inefficiency it wants.

Chainsaw56 on September 1, 2009 at 10:20 AM

It can also simply go trillions of dollars into debt. There isn’t a business in existence that could survive operating as our government does.

Liberals call corporations evil because they do things to cut costs and make money (for teh evil shareholders!!!!!!!eleventy1!!oen1!!). But the government forcing you to give it money or borrowing away the future of your children and their children so it can be ‘compassionate’ and stop everyone from dying or being poor or uneducated or the earth from getting ‘too hot’ or [insert utopian pipe dream liberal cause here]. Liberals have grand plans that require massive amounts of government control over the lives of it’s citizens including the confiscation of most of their property to be able to fund it (and even then it wouldn’t be able to pay for it).

gwelf on September 1, 2009 at 10:26 AM

We aren’t a year into this guy, his administration hasn’t faced any crisis situations, and yet he and his administration can’t get basic matters of governance correct.

Well, they did “face” rising unemployment and two car companies going under. They “solved” the first problem with the Porkulus that borrows $787 billion this year and spends most of it next year. The car companies’ bad debts were transferred to the taxpayers and their profits to the UAW–as Rahm Emanuel says, why waste a good crisis to fatten your union friends and steal from everyone else?

But there’s no real crisis in health care, so Barry O has to create one.

Steve Z on September 1, 2009 at 10:27 AM

In CA, we absolutely clobbered every single tax proposition with OVER 60%. There was a crystal clear message sent by voters.

Great, but since the Democrats will always control the state legislature, what difference does it make and why do they keep getting elected?

Let’s see, I’ll vote against raising taxes but I’ll return the people who do nothing but raise taxes, to office.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 10:28 AM

To monitor parents whom the states deems are not doing a good enough job.

BadgerHawk on September 1, 2009 at 10:23 AM

Interesting. Well, it maybe is better than removing the kids or ignoring the problems and letting them die.

We sure don’t do a great job on that here.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:30 AM

Great, but since the Democrats will always control the state legislature, what difference does it make and why do they keep getting elected?

Let’s see, I’ll vote against raising taxes but I’ll return the people who do nothing but raise taxes, to office.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 10:28 AM

Moderates might do better in the upcoming elections. We’ll see.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:31 AM

To some extent that’s true, but we have way too many people who can’t afford prescriptions now or who can’t even afford to see a doctor when needed. They have to wait until it’s life and death, and that’s unsafe.

Look, I fully admit that I’m very liberal on this policy issue. I think we need reform.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:57 AM

You won’t find anyone that is denied health care in the U.S., unless they don’t want it.
I really don’t know where you get your information…ever been to an emergency hospital in the evening?
It is full of Hispanics (in Calif) getting their free health care, seeing a doctor, getting medicine.
You misstate so many facts, you have to know you are doing that on purpose.
Yet, on Obama’s program, you will be denied until they have time to see you…look at Canada, or the U.K., or Oregon, or Mass.
I understand your passion to help the “poor” (who btw are also probably the most overweight), but substituting a system for one much worse on a promise, is a formula for disaster.
Why not H.R. 3400, why don’t you get behind that bill, the Republican bill that resolves all these problems.
Because you are a liberal, trolling?
If you want resolution, then start promoting H.R. 3400…

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Government can simply raise taxes and have all the waste and inefficiency it wants.

Well, so they wish. In CA, we absolutely clobbered every single tax proposition with OVER 60%. There was a crystal clear message sent by voters.
Bankrupt? Too bad. Figure it out. (Arnold held a garage sale this past weekend. Seriously. They sold a bunch of property.)
AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:22 AM

They seem to think they can work on that basis for a while, but it eventually catches up to them and they get caught in a bind between the taxpayers and the people that were promised all kinds of things in exchange for their vote.

The rest of the country should learn from the example of CA.

Chainsaw56 on September 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM

“The Obama argument on cost savings through preventive programs amounts to a shell game, a Ponzi scheme.”

or in other words, it’s just like the rest of government welfare programs.

notagool on September 1, 2009 at 10:35 AM

Interesting. Well, it maybe is better than removing the kids or ignoring the problems and letting them die.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:30 AM

You’re awfully willing to give up your individual freedoms.

BadgerHawk on September 1, 2009 at 10:35 AM

Well, they may not save any money by offering preventative care, but just think of the billons they’ll save by preventing crooked doctors from harvesting tonsils and superfluous limbs? Obama’s on to ‘em!

tpitman on September 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM

Moderates might do better in the upcoming elections. We’ll see.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:31 AM

Voting “moderate” Democrats gets you a Democrat who just takes more time to explain why he’s going to vote for some idiot “progressive” legislation, that’s all.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 10:37 AM

I never saw his approach in positioning this as cost-savings as being too persuasive.

But you have to understand that our system is great except for one thing. . . it is expensive.

People like their health care, they just don’t like their insurance premiums going up as much as they have to cover the cost of their health care.

The only reason this is a ‘crisis’ is Medicare and Medicaid are going broke. It ‘needs’ to be fixed because Medicare and Medicaid are on a collision course with reality. If the health care bill doesn’t fix the cost strains associated with Medicare and Medicaid, we won’t have ‘solved’ any problem. And we will eventually have to solve this problem that Congress created.

Let me say this one more time. The only problem with our health care system is the part that Congress set up because it is running out of money.

ThackerAgency on September 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM

Government can simply raise taxes and have all the waste and inefficiency it wants.

It can also simply go trillions of dollars into debt. There isn’t a business in existence that could survive operating as our government does.
gwelf on September 1, 2009 at 10:26 AM

Isn’t ironic that the government would shut down businesses that tried to run things that way?

Not to mention the whole Monopoly issue.

Chainsaw56 on September 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM

You’re awfully willing to give up your individual freedoms.

I presume these are serious abuse cases. I get bent over loss of freedom stuff, too. I followed one case of a very aggressive prosecution of a woman in CA who was accused of poisening her husband. The state simply put on the worst case of innuendo I’ve ever seen in my life. Then they roped in FL to take her kids away over, you ready? A phone call from a disgruntled BF and an empty fridge.

That type of abuse of power is just wrong.

BTW, she was convicted and then, later, was acquitted. It was a true travesty of justice.

So I worry over the State having too much power. What I see, personally, is that can happen regardless of who is in office.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:44 AM

Really? For what purpose?

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:19 AM

To monitor parents whom the states deems are not doing a good enough job.

BadgerHawk on September 1, 2009 at 10:23 AM

I would like to add a correction: It is for the purpose of monitoring “unruly” children…and to ensure they are “eating” correctly….I will try to find the article which was from the Daily Mail, a UK newspaper….it is happening to 20,000 families….all to “control” the kids. Which does also control the parents….so it’s a bit more than watching the parents….but still the UK Nanny state is well under way!! How long before it comes to these shores?

RoxanneH on September 1, 2009 at 10:46 AM

Isn’t ironic that the government would shut down businesses that tried to run things that way?

Not to mention the whole Monopoly issue.

Chainsaw56 on September 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM

It’s also ironic that liberals fear corporations but get a warm fuzzy at the idea of handing more power over to government than a corporation could ever have.

Liberals also see conservatives as cold and heartless for bringing up the financial realities but the truth is the quality of healthcare available in American cannot be provided all the time to everyone in America. There simply is not enough money/resources to do it. So, what’s more compassionate: using the free market to more efficiently and equitably ‘distribute’ healthcare reaching the most people possible with the best healthcare OR government funding healthcare with massive inefficiencies, rationing, sub-par care and walking down the road of bankruptcy anyway?

gwelf on September 1, 2009 at 10:47 AM

But you have to understand that our system is great except for one thing. . . it is expensive.
People like their health care, they just don’t like their insurance premiums going up as much as they have to cover the cost of their health care.
The only reason this is a ‘crisis’ is Medicare and Medicaid are going broke. It ‘needs’ to be fixed because Medicare and Medicaid are on a collision course with reality. If the health care bill doesn’t fix the cost strains associated with Medicare and Medicaid, we won’t have ’solved’ any problem. And we will eventually have to solve this problem that Congress created.
Let me say this one more time. The only problem with our health care system is the part that Congress set up because it is running out of money.
ThackerAgency on September 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM

I would agree with that assessment, but there is the other factor in healthcare costs and that is because it is getting better.

Consider that new technologies and drugs that keep people healthy cost money.

One could say that this is a good thing – would you rather have the high cost for a Lifesaving drug OR not have it Available at all?

Chainsaw56 on September 1, 2009 at 10:50 AM

So I worry over the State having too much power. What I see, personally, is that can happen regardless of who is in office.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:44 AM

And giving the government control over our healthcare is giving it too much power. And I wouldn’t trust it under A Bush or a Clinton or our current Dear Leader.

rbj on September 1, 2009 at 10:53 AM

How long before it comes to these shores?

RoxanneH on September 1, 2009 at 10:46 AM

I have heard of obese children being taken away here. It’s now considered abuse.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:53 AM

What I see, personally, is that can happen regardless of who is in office.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:44 AM

Very true. Which is why a lot of us want Washington to be as small a town as possible.

RoxanneH on September 1, 2009 at 10:46 AM

Ah, thank you. I couldn’t remember if it was the Daily Mail or Telegraph, and couldn’t find the link before I posted my reply to Ann.

BadgerHawk on September 1, 2009 at 10:54 AM

To some extent that’s true, but we have way too many people who can’t afford prescriptions now or who can’t even afford to see a doctor when needed. They have to wait until it’s life and death, and that’s unsafe.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 9:57 AM

This seems like the “health coverage is a right” argument. To which I wonder for sake of consistency: what about food? Where does food place on the priority of health?

anuts on September 1, 2009 at 10:55 AM

Let me say this one more time. The only problem with our health care system is the part that Congress set up because it is running out of money.

Congress voted to not set aside funds. So I’ve never quite followed this argument.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:55 AM

Like everything leftist, it sounds good on paper…after you have been drinking all night.

jukin on September 1, 2009 at 10:57 AM

This seems like the “health coverage is a right” argument.

I think a lot more people are out of work, can’t afford health insurance now, and it’s getting dire.

In CA, the children’s programs have now been severely slashed.

But, the other issue is that even workers are seeing astronomical increases in premiums and continued cuts in coverage.

It will reach a tipping point, even with them.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:58 AM

Congress voted to not set aside funds. So I’ve never quite followed this argument.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:55 AM

This is because they don’t set aside funds but the care is paid for anyway. This is why Medicare is in the red ~35 trillion. When Congress can’t pay for it this year it just kicks the can down the road by ‘borrowing money’. We can’t afford Medicare. It’s going to go bankrupt.

gwelf on September 1, 2009 at 10:59 AM

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:58 AM

I understand the situationals. I’m now interested in principles. Is it your premise that health insurance is a right, insurance too expensive, both, something else?

anuts on September 1, 2009 at 11:02 AM

So, what’s more compassionate: using the free market to more efficiently and equitably ‘distribute’ healthcare reaching the most people possible with the best healthcare OR government funding healthcare with massive inefficiencies, rationing, sub-par care and walking down the road of bankruptcy anyway?
gwelf on September 1, 2009 at 10:47 AM

I had a family member that worked for the government and audited Medicare and Medicaid healthcare providers.

So dinner table discussions would frequently be about how this Medicare program was wasting money or about someone that was scamming the system and soon to be heading off to jail.

So you can pretty much guess my answer to that question.

Chainsaw56 on September 1, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Well, these are the same toolbags and knob gobblers that have spent $2billion to “save” 0.12% on fuel consumption in Cash for Clunkers and simultaneously destroyed probably a half a million cars that someone would have used in other ways.

no surprises. throw them out.

ted c on September 1, 2009 at 11:07 AM

I had a family member that worked for the government and audited Medicare and Medicaid healthcare providers.

So dinner table discussions would frequently be about how this Medicare program was wasting money or about someone that was scamming the system and soon to be heading off to jail.

So you can pretty much guess my answer to that question.

Chainsaw56 on September 1, 2009 at 11:03 AM

The other day I heard a statistic mentioned on NPR by a Harvard professor who studied Medicare fraud – he said we don’t know how much is being lost but its in the hundreds of billions per year. Hundreds of billions. Per year.

Think how much care could be funded (by evil insurance companies making 3% profit) if that astronomical amount of money weren’t wasted but were instead being used in a free-market.

gwelf on September 1, 2009 at 11:10 AM

Well, these are the same toolbags and knob gobblers that have spent $2billion to “save” 0.12% on fuel consumption in Cash for Clunkers and simultaneously destroyed probably a half a million cars that someone would have used in other ways.

no surprises. throw them out.

ted c on September 1, 2009 at 11:07 AM

I bet poor people who want to buy a used car love it /sarc

gwelf on September 1, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Preventive care does not save money, but it does save lives. Fellow cancer survivors and I recognize that early diagnosis saved us but the 20 years or so of testing since has been very expensive.

PattyJ on September 1, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Each day, as Obama seeks to remake America to his Uncle Frank’s image, I get a little more sick…

coldwarrior on September 1, 2009 at 11:12 AM

So you mean it only saves lives? Darn!

crr6 on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM

No more so than other treatments. Or did you not even read what Ed wrote?

Stupid question, I know. Facts and compassion aren’t liberal strong suits.

Esthier on September 1, 2009 at 11:14 AM

I bet poor people who want to buy a used car love it /sarc

gwelf on September 1, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Yeah, just as much as my father, a mechanic who runs a few muffler and brakes shops.

Destroying perfectly good cars! How does that make sense to anyone?

Esthier on September 1, 2009 at 11:20 AM

The other day I heard a statistic mentioned on NPR by a Harvard professor who studied Medicare fraud – he said we don’t know how much is being lost but its in the hundreds of billions per year. Hundreds of billions. Per year

.

Does anybody really believe that any new type of government program won’t have the same problem?

That is, only worse because it’ll be bigger.

Think how much care could be funded (by evil insurance companies making 3% profit) if that astronomical amount of money weren’t wasted but were instead being used in a free-market.
gwelf on September 1, 2009 at 11:10 AM

The down side is that the government wouldn’t have as much control then – oh wait! That would be a good thing.

Chainsaw56 on September 1, 2009 at 11:22 AM

This is being handled stupidly.

GunRunner on September 1, 2009 at 11:23 AM

To monitor parents whom the states deems are not doing a good enough job.–Badgerhawk

Interesting. Well, it maybe is better than removing the kids or ignoring the problems and letting them die.

We sure don’t do a great job on that here.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 10:30 AM

AnninCA, you clearly are not just liberal with regards to the health care debate. The fact that you can even write the above words–saying that government-placed cameras in a home is “might” be a good idea–without the skin literally crawling off your fingers shows that you are a “government knows best” kind of gal in just about every possible manner.

johnny alpha on September 1, 2009 at 11:24 AM

Destroying perfectly good cars! How does that make sense to anyone?

Esthier on September 1, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Especially since if you donate a used car to a charity (e.g. the Salvation Army), you get a tax break and it goes to a battered woman or a welfare mom. Or they resell it and use the money for charity.

But the cars they’re using for charity, are all probably less fuel efficient and older than the cars that cash for clunkers destroyed in the interest of fuel efficiency and environnmental friendliness.

Does anyone in Congress or the White House know what they are doing?

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 11:30 AM

AnninCA, you clearly are not just liberal with regards to the health care debate. The fact that you can even write the above words–saying that government-placed cameras in a home is “might” be a good idea–without the skin literally crawling off your fingers shows that you are a “government knows best” kind of gal in just about every possible manner.

johnny alpha on September 1, 2009 at 11:24 AM

She is a planted troll, always “walking the line”, but is a liberal through and through. If she came out and was honest she would receive a drubbing, but she couches it with such “sincerity”. Yet her posts are riff with wrong facts (like people not getting health care), facts so easily disproved or research.
Either she is very, very dense (and I don’t think so), or is very,very liberal and tries to camouflage her liberalism.

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 11:39 AM

So, When do you think he’s going to come off his vacation schedule and hold a presser announcing that he and his team blew it with the projections and they will be starting over again on healthcare reform?

highhopes on September 1, 2009 at 9:34 AM

That will happen the same morning that I open my refrigerator and the pork chops fly out because they sprouted tiny little wings during the night.

IOW, when pigs…

Yoop on September 1, 2009 at 12:01 PM

I will admit that some ideas on the table are in fact good ones. Here’s the entire list:

1. Eliminate pre-existing prohibitions
This prevents cherry picking. Price the coverage according to risk on an individual basis, just like car insurance.

2. Portable policies
That is a misnomer. This means individual policies, not group policies. The car insurance industry does just fine with this arrangement. Nobody argues that people with a lifetime of car wrecks, speeding tickets, and DUIs shouldn’t have to pay a higher premium. Likewise, people with risky lifestyles should pay higher premiums for medical insurance. (Before the screaming starts, has anyone tried to get a life insurance policy without submitting to a medical exam? Why is there no bloodletting in Congress over smokers being forced to pay twice as much for life insurance?)

3. Allow/require Ins companies to sell across state lines. Ah, the big gorilla in the room. Allowing this forces the Ins companies to compete for the entire pool, not captive pools provided by employers.

BobMbx on September 1, 2009 at 12:03 PM

An eighth grade student could estimate the budget numbers closer than a two trillion dollar error! That is why we know that the economic collapse is intentional so the Communist can take over society. The debate over their motives is over! Unemployment is up, foreclosures up, bankruptcies up,and the economy continues to languish while Holder takes over the legal system!! The question is how to rage an all-out war against this bunch and root them out of power! We need a Churchilian type leader to lead the army! Any suggestions?

Marco on September 1, 2009 at 12:28 PM

Comment pages: 1 2