Astroturfing churches?

posted at 1:38 pm on September 1, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

If you attend church in Ohio on a regular basis, you may notice a subject creeping its way into your pastor’s sermons over the next two months. A Hot Air reader working at a non-profit received this RFP from the Ohio chapter of UHCAN, the organization behind the Health Care for America Now counter-demonstrations at town-hall forums, where volunteers are trained to disrupt and shut down dissent. With elected officials escaping their constituents and fleeing back to the Beltway, UHCAN Ohio wants to start Astroturfing churches:

Request for Proposals

UHCAN Ohio is looking to engage in a short term contract with a person who has a background in working with faith communities in the Southwest Ohio area, primarily Cincinnati and its suburbs. The purpose of the contract is to engage faith community leaders to communicate with their congregations about the movement for national health care reform. We want to provide them with materials that will assist them to talk about the moral issues involved in the lack of health care for a large portion of our population, and the desire to do it during this great debate on health care in this country.

The health care reform work of UHCAN Ohio, and the coalition it staffs, Ohio Consumers for Health Coverage can be reviewed by going to www.ohioconsumersforhealth.org or www.uhcanohio.org

Deliverables:

1. Prepare a packet of materials with input from the OCHC leadership team that can be used by faith-based leaders and can be easily copied and distributed to faith leaders. Such materials are available from the Faithful Reform in Health Care web site, but may need to be supplemented with other materials and you may need to search further than the FRHC website. The packet should also be able to be posted on-line on the UHCAN Ohio and OCHC websites, with links to the appropriate original sites.

2. Reach out to forty faith congregations in the Cincinnati area and its suburbs, asking their faith leader to communicate to his/her congregation about federal health care reform in a religious/moral context. This will require face to face or at least individual phone conversations with pastors/leaders asking them to preach on the subject, or to carry out a discussion within the congregation, or to sign on to a letter to policymakers. We need a success rate of at least 33 percent. It will also involve providing them with the materials that will fit their situation.

In preparing a proposal keep in mind that because individual congregations respond to the instructions/directions they receive from their denominational leadership, this project will involve becoming familiar with the directives that have already been developed by regional or state offices of the various denominations and the various faith traditions, and probably conversations with key denominational staff to determine what is the most effective way to work within anyone denomination.

Time-Frame: End of August through October, frontloading the project so much of the contact initiation happens in late August, early to mid September.

In preparing a proposal please specify the number of hours and rate/hour required to carry out these deliverables. The contractor will be responsible for all expenses such as phone calls and mileage, so please build that into your rate. Expenses for copying materials will be borne by UHCAN Ohio.

Please submit a proposal to Kathleen Gmeiner, Ohio Consumers for Health Coverage Project Director, UHCAN Ohio, 404 S. Third St., Columbus, Ohio 43215. Questions may be directed to [redacted].

The proposal deadline is 5 PM Monday August 24, 2009.

In other words, UHCAN wants to pressure churches into transforming themselves into campaign rallies.  That kind of contact could risk their tax-exempt status (and should), but the moral problem goes beyond that.  Will pastors who agree to this disclose that they’ve been lobbied and pressured by ObamaCare advocates?  If they do, it would undermine the credibility of the sermons, but if they don’t, it undermines the credibility of the minister and the church itself.

I deliberately chose the word “creeping” in the lead.  This is a rather creepy idea, one which essentially asks ministers to become tools of the state.  It’s one thing to ask ministers to join their cause, but another entirely to launch a lobbying campaign to astroturf their sermons.  It shows the level of desperation among ObamaCare organizers as Americans reject their radical agenda.

Update: UHCAN’s Iowa affiliate can skip their meeting with Catholic bishop R. Walter Nickless, who makes an excellent point about the difference between rendering to Caesar and rendering to the Lord (emphases mine):

First and most important, the Church will not accept any legislation that mandates coverage, public or private, for abortion, euthanasia, or embryonic stem-cell research.

We refuse to allow our own parish, school, and diocesan health insurance plans to be forced to include these evils.  As a corollary of this, we insist equally on adequate protection of individual rights of conscience for patients and health care providers not to be made complicit in these evils.  A so-called reform that imposes these evils on us would be far worse than keeping the health care system we now have.

Second, the Catholic Church does not teach that “health care” as such, without distinction, is a natural right.

The “natural right” of health care is the divine bounty of food, water, and air without which all of us quickly die.  This bounty comes from God directly.  None of us own it, and none of us can morally withhold it from others.  The remainder of health care is a political, not a natural, right, because it comes from our human efforts, creativity, and compassion.

As a political right, health care should be apportioned according to need, not ability to pay or to benefit from the care.  We reject the rationing of care.  Those who are sickest should get the most care, regardless of age, status, or wealth.  But how to do this is not self-evident.  The decisions that we must collectively make about how to administer health care therefore fall under “prudential judgment.”

Third, in that category of prudential judgment, the Catholic Church does not teach that government should directly provide health care.

Unlike a prudential concern like national defense, for which government monopolization is objectively good – it both limits violence overall and prevents the obvious abuses to which private armies are susceptible – health care should not be subject to federal monopolization.

Preserving patient choice (through a flourishing private sector) is the only way to prevent a health care monopoly from denying care arbitrarily, as we learned from HMOs in the recent past.  While a government monopoly would not be motivated by profit, it would be motivated by such bureaucratic standards as quotas and defined “best procedures,” which are equally beyond the influence of most citizens.  The proper role of the government is to regulate the private sector, in order to foster healthy competition and to curtail abuses.  Therefore any legislation that undermines the viability of the private sector is suspect.

I’d disagree with Bishop Nickless on the nature of natural rights, but it might be comparing apples to oranges.  He’s talking about rights from a spiritual perspective, while I’d approach it from a political perspective.  No one has the right to someone else’s property, which is the basis of the free market.  Farmers produce food and own the fruits of their labor.  Water and especially air are more ambiguous.  However, even with that disagreement, Nickless gets the rest of it exactly right.

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http://www.cwfa.org/brochures/pastors.pdf.

http://www.protectmarriage.com/files/churches_and_politics.pdf

See the above links as examples. Many GOP-connected groups have been conducting “non-partisan” voter education drives and “non-partisan” voter registrations for quite a while. They generally can do so as long as “issues” are discussed and no recommendation is made for a particular candidate. Of course, 95% of the people understand who to vote for if the GOP candidate’s position is the same as the church’s on the issues. And pastors, as individuals, can discuss how they plan to vote and can generally allow additional literature to be distributed in church parking lots.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 2:56 PM

it’s not easy to stomach thinking that Christian priests and ministers in Hitler’s Germany supported the Nazi regime, but they did.

Few actually “supported” it, they went along to go along.

The threat of having your eyeballs yanked out and fed to you may have played a part in that. Go figure.

But you seemed to be making the case that only a few priests and pastors opposed the Nazi regime and that is far from the truth.

And if you want to read about large scale resistance to tyranny, read about what the Spanish Republicans did to Catholic Priests in Nuns in the run up to and during the Spanish Civil War. Most historians agree that the communists murdered at least 6,000 of them and as many as 15,000, many of them executed while praying for their murderers.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 2:58 PM

Jesus said, “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, & give to God what belongs to God”.
Obama says, “Give it ALL to Barack Caesar Apollo Augustus Obama”.

jgapinoy on September 1, 2009 at 2:58 PM

No Donkey– I think the guy was just talking about the Protestant churches. The sad fact is that a majority of the “mainstream” ones, and nearly all of the “liberal” ones, did go along with the regime. There were nevertheless many heroic Protestant dissidents, too.

The Catholic Church, being hierarchical and more disciplined, could not be co-opted so easily. (If an individual priest, for example, put Mein Kampf on the altar, as the Lutherans were forced to do, the priest would have been removed from the parish by the bishop and, if necessary, the church would shut its doors……the way Catholic Adoption Services in Massachusetts shut its doors rather than comply with state ideology.) So the Catholics were just bullied into silence. Some, as you well know, spoke out anyway.

wolfie on September 1, 2009 at 2:58 PM

Just the problem. Everyone has been “chilled out” for too long!

patriotparty1 on September 1, 2009 at 2:59 PM

When the founders mentioned the wall of separation between the church and the state, they meant that the state shouldn’t be overly influenced by religious groups.

ted c on September 1, 2009 at 1:49 PM

Absolutely, and 100% incorrect.

The wall of seperation was to keep the state out of the church’s business. The idea that church going people should be forbidden from trying to influence public policy would have been highly offensive to the founding fathers. Considering the fact that most of them were church going people themselves.

MarkTheGreat on September 1, 2009 at 3:01 PM

And if you want to read about large scale resistance to tyranny, read about what the Spanish Republicans did to Catholic Priests in Nuns in the run up to and during the Spanish Civil War. Most historians agree that the communists murdered at least 6,000 of them and as many as 15,000, many of them executed while praying for their murderers.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 2:58 PM

The “Republicans” (read: Socialists, Communists, Syndicalists, and the Anarchists, somewhat)were monsters. Franco and the Nationalists were the lesser of two evils.

PimFortuynsGhost on September 1, 2009 at 3:02 PM

wolfie on September 1, 2009 at 2:58 PM

And there were ways to resist and to help without giving the Nazis an excuse to well, kill them.

The Vatican and many Catholic Churches risked lives to help Jews escape Germany.

These people risked their lives, then people today, from the comfort of their homes and offices, write about how they did nothing. Just revolting.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 3:03 PM

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 2:56 PM

Your logic is twisted. It’s like saying how dare they use sales men to promote commissions! Or use farmers to promote better crop yield.

- The Cat

MirCat on September 1, 2009 at 3:03 PM

PimFortuynsGhost on September 1, 2009 at 3:02 PM

Completely agree. And the history of that war shows how incredibly screwed up leftists are and how the socialists were suspicious of the communists who were suspicious of the anarchists.

And the communists made incredibly stupid military decisions because of their devotion to propaganda.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 3:06 PM

This is going to go very badly.

drjohn on September 1, 2009 at 3:06 PM

How is my logic twisted? Vote registration actions are much more political activities than talking to church leaders about health care.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:07 PM

Completely agree. And the history of that war shows how incredibly screwed up leftists are and how the socialists were suspicious of the communists who were suspicious of the anarchists.

And the communists made incredibly stupid military decisions because of their devotion to propaganda.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 3:06 PM

Look at the bright side – it not only shows that leftist ideas are failures, but the failure of the Spanish Republic also meant that only half of Europe fell behind the iron curtain after WWII.

Vashta.Nerada on September 1, 2009 at 3:09 PM

That’s really a hoot. Every spokesperson was the head of some congregation or another.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 1:59 PM

And in your mind, this proves that the pastors in question routinely used their churches to push a political agenda?

MarkTheGreat on September 1, 2009 at 3:09 PM

There isn’t a single Republican in the country who can credibly raise an objection to this. That’s a bad thing.

RightOFLeft on September 1, 2009 at 3:09 PM

Isn’t that supposed to be a conservative value?

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 2:00 PM

The real one is, the modern distortion is nothing but a liberal conceit.

MarkTheGreat on September 1, 2009 at 3:10 PM

How is my logic twisted? Vote registration actions are much more political activities than talking to church leaders about health care.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:07 PM

If someone comes to you and says, “Hey, you want what I want so let’s work together,” that’s good.

If someone comes to you and says, “Hey, I can use you to get what I want that has nothing to do with what you are working towards so let’s work together,” that’s bad.

- The Cat

MirCat on September 1, 2009 at 3:12 PM

Vashta.Nerada on September 1, 2009 at 3:09 PM

Good point and Franco didn’t do a damn thing to help Hitler, after the Condor Legion helped Franco.

If the Spanish Republic would have won the Civil War, Spain would have been a wholly owned subsidiary of the Soviet Union, that was the plan.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 3:15 PM

Cat

Many mainstream Protestant churches would support signicant health care reform and believe this because of their Christian principles. The official Catholic church position is different because of abortion, but my guess is that health care reform would be supported by individual priests.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:16 PM

This will end badly. I had a huge problem with my Church when they would not speak out against Obama’s abortion stance. Not once did a homily mention that, even if it is a basic evil of the Church, but after he was elected, all of the sudden my preist started asking us to be active to make sure that Obama heard from Catholics about him extending abortion money to other countries. If they start talking about health care and pushing that, I predict huge problems.

momof2 on September 1, 2009 at 3:16 PM

Grow Fins
While I don’t personally accept at this point the Obama=Hitler idea you are off in a couple points…do you seriously think that the Nazi regime started out with concentration camps and mass murder? is the hyperbole a little over the top yes but don’t dismiss another persons opinion so disrespectfully. I am sure you were a vocal advocate of the Bush=Hitler meme over the last 8 years.
I am not surprised that UHCAN is pushing churches to sermonize for Obamacare anymore then i was surprised when Obama called religious leaders promoting it personally. I disagree with Annieinca that regardless of the outcome of Obamacare that Obama can recover. If it goes down in flames he becomes a lame duck president in a few short months, forget about re-election his next 3 years will be terrible.

JKotthoff on September 1, 2009 at 3:17 PM

I am sure you were a vocal advocate of the Bush=Hitler meme over the last 8 years.

Nope. Nice to see the disrespect runs both ways though.

Grow Fins on September 1, 2009 at 3:26 PM

Many mainstream Protestant churches would support signicant health care reform and believe this because of their Christian principles. The official Catholic church position is different because of abortion, but my guess is that health care reform would be supported by individual priests.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:16 PM

*eyebrow* Catholic churches don’t have a monopoly on the pro-life movement ya know.

Protestant churches have strove with The State for years so try again.

- The Cat

P.S. No Church that isn’t a front would say, Heal me Caesar!

MirCat on September 1, 2009 at 3:26 PM

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 2:56 PM

That’s because what the conservatives do, they do to help America…as opposed to what the liberals do, harm America.
You didn’t know that?
Let me give you an example, maybe several….
Billions to build a Rum refinery, $0 to build a gas refinery…Billions to drill for oil in Brazil, $0 to drill for oil in the U.S.
Now you may be getting the picture…want another?
Millions spent to convince people to take gov. health care, after lobbyists and secret meetings with drug companies, after promising all meeting would be on C-Span…and we have women groups posting information in the open for all to see and review.
One is in secret, Obama, and the other is in the open, conservative.
We, conservatives do not fear light, or to use Obama’s word, we don’t fear transparency.
Not only do we use the word, we practice it…Obama’s uses the right words, but doesn’t act on them.
Thanks for making that so apparent…

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 3:29 PM

–So why were voter guides handed out and voter registration tables set up in churches by Focus on the Family and similar organizations? Of course the churches were used to promote political goals educated their congregation about where candidates stood on moral issues.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 2:45 PM

FIFY. The church I attend has NEVER promoted a political goal. However, it has allowed members to pass out voter guides that listed issues, and where candidates stood on those issues. Individuals still made the decision of who to vote for… and like any other action, will be held accountable for that decision when judged before God.

dominigan on September 1, 2009 at 3:30 PM

Mainstream Protestant churches are generally supportive of abortion rights, cat. I don’t understand your “Protestant churches have strove with The State for years so try again” thing so please explain.

And dominigan, what part of voting is not a political goal? Are you ignorant or just a filthy liar?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:35 PM

Mainstream Protestant churches are generally supportive of abortion rights, cat.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:35 PM

Ok sure Bob.

- The Cat

MirCat on September 1, 2009 at 3:39 PM

These people risked their lives, then people today, from the comfort of their homes and offices, write about how they did nothing. Just revolting.

NoDonkey on September 1, 2009 at 3:03 PM

I don’t appreciate you’re trying to attribute base motives to my comments.
I brought up the example of Bonhoeffer first.
Bonhoeffer and the other dissenting clergymen were jailed & executed to discourage others and that worked.
Most priests & ministers didn’t speak out because they were afraid.
Some were complicit–hard to believe, but true.
As wolfie pointed out, the Lutheran churches had Mein Kampf on their altars.
The reason that NObama’s use of churches in this regard is so insidious is that it’s the same type of manipulation of public opinion that Hitler took advantage of.
Germany was a very churchy country back in those days.
The USA is now, as we all know.
NObama isn’t getting his message out via the MSM so he’s trying another way and something that’s closer to people’s homes and hearts than TV press conferences.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 3:43 PM

Protestant views on abortion vary considerably. Christian fundamentalist movements condemn abortion, while “Mainline Protestant traditions take more nuanced positions, but are generally pro-choice with some exceptions. Several mainstream Protestant organizations belong to the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice. These include the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA), The United Church of Christ, The United Methodist Church, the Unitarian Universalist Church, and the Lutheran Women’s Caucus.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_abortion.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:43 PM

I have a huge problem with the way liberals are approaching this. They are trying to sell their secular ideas from the pulpit. For those who think this is ok, let me remind you of another instance…

13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!” –John 2 13:16

It is important to understand the context. Jewish law required specific animal sacrifices to atone for sin. People bought the animals if they did not have them directly.

However, the simple providing of a temple service had been perverted into a huge money-making enterprise. Animals were being sold for profit. In those times, empires, regions and sometimes cities would mint their own coinage… so moneychangers would be required to convert foreign coins into accepted coinage. They would often cheat people to obtain high profits. Many times this would exclude the poor from being able to fulfill their required atonement in favor of the wealthy.

Jesus took a dim view of perverting the religious requirements in the name of secular advancement. It is the only time in the Bible when Jesus took direct, violent action against others. To our knowledge he did not harm them, but make no mistake… he drove them out of the temple!

Maybe we should ask… WWJD?

dominigan on September 1, 2009 at 3:48 PM

Jesus would vote for health care reform. I have no doubt of that.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

The next lib that says it is a MORAL right, say “Your right, lets fund our faith based organizations like the Catholic Church to provide it, since they are our Moral leaders.”

Wait 10 seconds and watch them explode… No shaking required.

When did Liberals start using a Moral argument and think they are on the winning side.

barnone on September 1, 2009 at 3:52 PM

Jesus would vote for health care reform. I have no doubt of that.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Wear insulated shoes if you go outside.

Vashta.Nerada on September 1, 2009 at 3:54 PM

I don’t need to, Vashta. I am sure of that.

And barnone, perhaps you don’t remember a little thing called the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s and 70s?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:55 PM

And dominigan, what part of voting is not a political goal? Are you ignorant or just a filthy liar?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:35 PM

Voting is a political responsibility in this country, and is NOT a goal within Christianity. However, making moral decisions based upon God’s Word and Jesus’ examples IS the province of Christianity. Discipleship, the education and training of believers, is the command Jesus gave us in the Great Commission, and is a primary responsibility of the Church.

Since I am a Christian, I will ignore the rest of your comment…

dominigan on September 1, 2009 at 3:56 PM

But making decisions for whom to vote for, asking others to do the same and contributing money to candidates and certain pro-life and anti-gay political referendums are moral decisions and the province of Christianity and not a goal within Christianity? Sorry. I don’t buy it. Look back at some of the Moral Majority and related stuff and how they wanted to essentially convert the US and its laws.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM

Jesus would vote for health care reform. I have no doubt of that.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Wear insulated shoes if you go outside.

Vashta.Nerada on September 1, 2009 at 3:54 PM

Wrong, I talked to Jesus today and He said there’s no way those working hard should pay for the irresponsible bums.

Jeff from WI on September 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM

Jesus would vote for health care reform. I have no doubt of that.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Well, may have voted for health care reform, probably H.R. 3400, but certainly not what Obama and cronies are presenting.
I don’t remember anywhere where Jesus says to go to your government for handouts, or where it is okay to force people into “giving”…giving was through the belief that Jesus Christ is Lord, is that what all the liberals believe now? By His Grace, we receive all that we need, not all that the government provides. Little weak on theology are you?
Remember, Obama met with the pharm companies in secret, after promising “transparency” and having the meeting on C-Span…that doesn’t give you cause to question his motives?

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 4:04 PM

Jesus would vote for health care reform. I have no doubt of that.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

yeah I remember that verse where Jesus told the sick and lame to go petition the Roman government to take from the rich to pay for socialized health care for all, forcing everyone to comply with government control over their health decisions.

Oh wait, the truth is Jesus had true compassion for the sick and lame and healed himself.

Advocates of the government nanny state love to try and disguise their lust for complete control over others by calling it compassion. They try and use some of the words of Jesus to shove their policies onto the people only when it’s convenient for them but reject his words in every other sphere of life.

alteredbeat on September 1, 2009 at 4:04 PM

Look back at some of the Moral Majority and related stuff and how they wanted to essentially convert the US and its laws.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM

Give us an example of these “conversions”. I will bet everyone you list is from some liberal rumor mill.

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 4:05 PM

Your Jesus must be different than my Jesus, I guess. Mine said to look out for the poor and downtroden. I guess yours said to torch them when they’re passed out on the sidewalk.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM

Jesus would vote for health care reform. I have no doubt of that.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

That’s funny. Everything I read in the Bible says that charity is the responsibility of the individual.

dominigan on September 1, 2009 at 4:07 PM

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:43 PM

Ah yes, the first place to go to learn about Christianity is Wikipedia! /sarc

(hint: you might try reading the Bible yourself)

dominigan on September 1, 2009 at 4:09 PM

Remember, Obama met with the pharm companies in secret, after promising “transparency” and having the meeting on C-Span…that doesn’t give you cause to question his motives?

–Didn’t Cheney do the same with the oil companies when energy policy was being discussed?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:10 PM

I have. We just disagree.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:10 PM

Your Jesus must be different than my Jesus, I guess. Mine said to look out for the poor and downtroden.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM

Such a weak point. Yes, he did tell individual people to take care of the poor. He didn’t say force everyone to take care of the poor through wealth confiscation and top-down complete bureaucratic control over people’s lives. He didn’t say that the Jewish or even Roman government should take care of the poor through their tax revenues.

The fact is that his instruction to take care of the poor was to individuals, just as all his instructions were.

So Jimbo, are you following his instructions? How much time and or money have you contributed for the poor in 2009? Or have you just been agitating for the government to force everyone to do it for you?

alteredbeat on September 1, 2009 at 4:14 PM

–Didn’t Cheney do the same with the oil companies when energy policy was being discussed?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:10 PM

Different deal.
Oil and energy, particularly after 9/11,were and are national security issues.

Big pharma isn’t…unless Barry Hussein pulls off his H1N1 flu “crisis.”

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Your Jesus must be different than my Jesus, I guess. Mine said to look out for the poor and downtroden. I guess yours said to torch them when they’re passed out on the sidewalk.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM

I’m not sure which Jesus you’re referring to, but mine liked to tell stories to make his point…

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26″What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27He answered: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

28″You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36″Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” –Luke 10:25-37

I missed the part where the Government official passed the law for appointed officials to take money from the people to establish a Healthcare system to care for those less fortunate. The Jesus I follow said that we are personally responsible for taking care of others.

If you are going to claim to follow Jesus, you should at least be able to quote him. Debate me with scripture, not vague wishy-washy answers.

dominigan on September 1, 2009 at 4:16 PM

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”

–I don’t see Jesus saying not to pay money to the State.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:18 PM

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:10 PM

Dominigan is correct. Charity is the responsibility of the individual. In fact, Jesus said that we will always have the poor among us. Christians aid the poor through their Tithes and charitable giving. As far as the Government goes,

And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s.

Luke 20:25 While I am a very Patriotic American, my body, my health, and my eternal soul belong to God. Not the Federal Government. It is my responsibility to take care of the “temple” God has given me.

kingsjester on September 1, 2009 at 4:18 PM

That’s really a hoot. Every spokesperson was the head of some congregation or another.

AnninCA on September 1, 2009 at 1:59 PM

And in your mind, this proves that the pastors in question routinely used their churches to push a political agenda?

MarkTheGreat on September 1, 2009 at 3:09 PM

You’re forgetting the core Democratic value of projection. If it’s something that Democrats would do in that position, then they’re sure that everyone else would do the same.

tom on September 1, 2009 at 4:20 PM

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”

–I don’t see Jesus saying not to pay money to the State.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:18 PM

And no one here is saying not to pay taxes. So what’s your point genius?

alteredbeat on September 1, 2009 at 4:23 PM

Wrong, I talked to Jesus today and He said there’s no way those working hard should pay for the irresponsible bums.

Jeff from WI on September 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM

Yeah, I especially like to point out…

6In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.” — 2 Thessalonians 3:6-10

dominigan on September 1, 2009 at 4:24 PM

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”

–I don’t see Jesus saying not to pay money to the State.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:18 PM

And I don’t see Jesus saying that the charity is the responsibility of the State.

dominigan on September 1, 2009 at 4:25 PM

I don’t see Jesus saying that schooling, health care, welfare, Medicare, etc. is not the responsibility of the state either.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:27 PM

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”

–I don’t see Jesus saying not to pay money to the State.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:18 PM

One of the greatest quotes. It immediately points back to the real question: which functions are properly part of government, and which are properly not.

This is anathema to statists, fascists, and other collectivists, who think the government should be all-encompassing.

One could make a fair case that conservative politics starts with the question of what is the proper role of government. One could also make a good case that the principle difference between conservatism and libertarianism is the attempt by libertarians to limit the government even from roles it has traditionally held.

tom on September 1, 2009 at 4:28 PM

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:27 PM

The largest Protestant Demonination is The Southern Baptist Convention. It is the world’s largest Baptist denomination and the largest Protestant body in the US with over 16 million members and more than 42,000 churches. It is a Conservative denomination.

kingsjester on September 1, 2009 at 4:32 PM

The Southern Baptist convention has 16 million baptized members. That’s very different than the number of people who now attend.

“One internal study by the SBC shows that on average 38 percent of the membership (6,138,776 members, guests and non-member children) attend their churches’ primary worship services.[44] Southern Baptists do not track church attendance by numbers in the primary worship service; they track attendance through participation in Sunday School where 4,154,270 Convention members (less than 26 percent of SBC total membership) attend.[45] Additionally, Sunday School enrollment in the United States decreased by 123,817 members between 2007 and 2008.[46]” An important indicator for the health of the denomination is new baptisms which have decreased every year for seven of the last eight years, and as of 2008 have reached their lowest levels since 1987.[51]

This decline in membership and baptisms has prompted some SBC researchers to describe the Convention as a “denomination in decline”.[52] Former SBC president Frank Page declared that if current conditions continue half of all SBC churches will close their doors permanently by the year 2030.[53] This assessment is supported by a recent survey of SBC churches which indicated that 70% of all SBC churches are declining or are plateaued with regards to their membership.”

Resolution On Abortion, adopted at the SBC convention, June 1971:

WHEREAS, Christians in the American society today are faced with difficult decisions about abortion; and
WHEREAS, Some advocate that there be no abortion legislation, thus making the decision a purely private matter between a woman and her doctor; and
WHEREAS, Others advocate no legal abortion, or would permit abortion only if the life of the mother is threatened;
Therefore, be it RESOLVED, that this Convention express the belief that society has a responsibility to affirm through the laws of the state a high view of the sanctity of human life, including fetal life, in order to protect those who cannot protect themselves; and
Be it further RESOLVED, That we call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother

Resolution On Abortion And Sanctity Of Human Life, adopted at the SBC convention, June 1974:

WHEREAS, Southern Baptists have historically held a high view of the sanctity of human life, and
WHEREAS, The messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in St. Louis in 1971 adopted overwhelmingly a resolution on abortion, and
WHEREAS, That resolution reflected a middle ground between the extreme of abortion on demand and the opposite extreme of all abortion as murder, and
WHEREAS, That resolution dealt responsibly from a Christian perspective with complexities of abortion problems in contemporary society;
Therefore, be it RESOLVED, that we reaffirm the resolution on the subject adopted by the messengers to the St. Louis Southern Baptist Convention meeting in 1971, and
Be it further RESOLVED, that we continue to seek God’s guidance through prayer and study in order to bring about solutions to continuing abortion problems in our society.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:37 PM

I don’t see Jesus saying that schooling, health care, welfare, Medicare, etc. is not the responsibility of the state either.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:27 PM

What is your point?
That Jesus would want Big Government or not?
Take a position and then own it, coward.

The Lord said “Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s:” IOW, obey the laws which require you to pay your taxes.
In regards to everything else, your heart, soul and mind should be the guide not the State.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 4:39 PM

I believe Jesus would vote for a law that gives everyone who wants it access to affordable health care.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:41 PM

I believe Jesus would vote for a law that gives everyone who wants it access to affordable health care.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:41 PM

Good for you. Unfortunately, your belief is not supported by scripture.

alteredbeat on September 1, 2009 at 4:44 PM

I believe Jesus would vote for a law that gives everyone who wants it access to affordable health care.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:41 PM

I don’t. Big time.
Not only wouldn’t he support voting for such a law, he might vigorously oppose it.
Not only did He tell us not to look to earthly things like government to provide us things, but to our Heavenly Father, but the issue arises as to how legitimate any such governmental entity is, that it sets itself up like a “god” that can bind and loose power and goods as it wishes and wills.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 4:45 PM

I believe Jesus would vote for a law that gives everyone who wants it access to affordable health care.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:41 PM

Then I guess He wouldn’t mind doing TV ads for CVS or Walgreens, huh?
They have affordable health care clinics and anyone can go there legally.
What a country!

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 4:48 PM

The National Council of Churches’ President, General Secretary and Health Task Force have issued a pastoral letter on the urgent need for healthcare reform in the United States. The Task Force has also posted a primer and backgrounder to help churches work for improved healthcare in the U.S. On Wednesday, August 19, faith leaders will be joined by President Obama in a national call-in to talk about the healthcare issues and explore ways of enhancing their witness to bring about a solution favorable to the needs of all Americans. The NCC’s Health Task Force declares: “The National Council of Churches, especially through its Committee on Families and Children, and the Health Task Force, senses that our nation’s cry for dependable, affordable health care for all people is growing in volume and strength. Like the prophet Habakkuk, we believe we hear God’s injunction to ‘write the vision plain…’ In response, we are committed to work for a straightforward approach that honors all persons and is sustainable by both individuals and society.”

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:50 PM

The National Council of Churches

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:50 PM

National Council of Churches=Evil, Leftist Communist infiltration organization whose goal is to destroy Christianity in America from the inside.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:37 PM
The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission is the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. Please visit it at sbc.net. There you will find the answers as to what Southern Baptist believe. The information you evidently received from wikipedia is 30 years old. And if it is not from wikipedia, you only researched as far as you wanted to in order to make your point.

kingsjester on September 1, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Kingjester, do you dispute that those were the resolutions adopted by the SBC in the 1970s?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:54 PM

Your Jesus must be different than my Jesus, I guess. Mine said to look out for the poor and downtroden. I guess yours said to torch them when they’re passed out on the sidewalk.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM

Ours both said look out for the downtrodden…mine and yours never said have someone else take care, force someone else to take care, have the government take care…it is up to us as individuals, through the strength and Grace of Jesus Christ.
Glad you are on board, that is what churches are for…thanks for reminding us that “the least among” us are taken care by individuals and not the state.

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 4:55 PM

As if churches don’t already have enough problems keeping people in the pews. People go to church looking for the Bread of Life, and not only are they fed artificial vitamin pills in the form of pre-packaged teaching materials from corporations creating spiritually dead works, but not they are going to add government coercion? Babylon.

Queen0fCups on September 1, 2009 at 1:53 PM

AMEN! +100

GrannyDee on September 1, 2009 at 4:56 PM

In response, we are committed to work for a straightforward approach that honors all persons and is sustainable by both individuals and society.”

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:50 PM

So if we came up with a similar group, opposing you would switch back, and not support health care.
Listen, issuing a statement from a very liberal organization, anti-American at that, doesn’t help your debate.
You already quoted Christ, and you are a follower, and he was quite explicit in individual help of the least among us…so you must be very torn.
National Council of Churches…or Jesus Christ…they have opposing views.

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 4:59 PM

Kingjester, do you dispute that those were the resolutions adopted by the SBC in the 1970s?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:54 PM

What would be the point???
I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church.
Baptists are pretty independent, strong-minded individuals who believe in individual choice as an article of our faith, particularly in regards to accepting Christ as our Savior and being baptized.
We’re not into Gruppe-Dinke or even pay it lip service.
We don’t need the Southern Baptist Convention to “resolve” that abortion is infanticide.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 4:59 PM

I believe Jesus would vote for a law that gives everyone who wants it access to affordable health care.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:41 PM

Are you in support of H.R. 3400? It does that…

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 5:00 PM

They don’t have opposing views in my mind. Jesus did say individuals have an obligation to provide charity. He didn’t say that was the exclusive means for making that happen.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:01 PM

kingsjester on September 1, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Yes, they were adopted…in the 70′s. Have you not visited the site I just invited you to visit or are you just going to believe what you wish to believe? One more time…that’s The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission @ sbc.net. It’s easy to find.

kingsjester on September 1, 2009 at 5:01 PM

In other words, UHCAN wants to pressure churches into transforming themselves into campaign rallies. That kind of contact could risk their tax-exempt status (and should),…

UHCAN’s website links directly to an advocacy organization called Faithful Reform in Healthcare. See their “about us” page for their creepy agenda, and their “members” page (which claims to include many mainstream groups like Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)as well as fringe groups).

From the “about us” page:

The work plan: Faithful Reform in Health Care is an independent non-profit organization incorporated in Ohio that will temporarily use the 501(c)(3) designation of the Universal Health Care Action Network so that donations will be tax exempt.

Joined at the hip.

Buy Danish on September 1, 2009 at 5:02 PM

They don’t have opposing views in my mind. Jesus did say individuals have an obligation to provide charity. He didn’t say that was the exclusive means for making that happen.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:01 PM

I will ask again, do you support H.R. 3400, it gives health care options to even a greater number of Americans.

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 5:02 PM

“…In response, we are committed to work for a straightforward approach that honors all persons and is sustainable by both individuals and society.”

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:50 PM

The CBO has told NObama 3 times that the proposed HC reform isn’t sustainable, at least not economically.
As for “straightforward approach,” this rates nothing more than a snort of derision for the NObama Administration and DemocRat-controlled Congress.
The whole deal has been dishonest and covert, with legislators trying to push legislation that most of them haven’t and won’t read in the dead of night.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 5:03 PM

They don’t have opposing views in my mind. Jesus did say individuals have an obligation to provide charity. He didn’t say that was the exclusive means for making that happen.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:01 PM

If He stated that, then you would concede and not support health care reform? Do I read you correctly?

right2bright on September 1, 2009 at 5:03 PM

If HR 3400 is what Ed wrote about on Saturday, it doesn’t do that. It gives grants to states to investigate things like tort reform and insurance cooperatives, but it doesn’t require states to actually do anything.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:04 PM

If you can find something where Jesus said that the state has no business providing public schooling or insurance or health care, I would consider it.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:05 PM

Arguing with Jimbo is and will continue to be unproductive. He is determined to use Jesus as a tool to push government health care, regardless of the facts in scripture.

It’s the standard playbook of leftists. They use Jesus when they can to push their agenda, but ignore and denouce Jesus’ teaching on the spiritual condition of humans. Notice how the teachings they cherrypick somehow all support a gigantic nanny state government. That is what they want, because they plan to be the ones controlling and repeaping the financial rewards of big government. They don’t want Jesus at all. They seek to only use him to push their politics.

alteredbeat on September 1, 2009 at 5:12 PM

If you can find something where Jesus said that the state has no business providing public schooling or insurance or health care, I would consider it.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:05 PM

How about you consult the Constitution of the United States? I’m sure you will find it there.

alteredbeat on September 1, 2009 at 5:14 PM

They don’t have opposing views in my mind. Jesus did say individuals have an obligation to provide charity. He didn’t say that was the exclusive means for making that happen.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:01 PM

Have you even read a Bible recently?
Doubtful.
Jesus said “The poor you shall always have with you.”
He also said, “Whenever you have done this for the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me.”
He encouraged His followers to provide food, shelter and clothing to the poor and needy, but did not oblige us to do anything but to love God and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

The Lord didn’t have to deal with the concept of Christian charity as the “exclusive means” because why should he?
What’s the point?
The State in the form of the Roman government was as pathetic at helping people then as any modern state is today.
And “health care” is a modern concept that’s been crafted into a “right” and a “need” by luxury-loving, power-hungry 20th and 21th Century folks who want the State to stand in for God.
Whether the idea of “charity to the poor” should encompass “health care” is an argument we are seldom allowed to have, even in this country with a remarkably Liberal Constitution and Bill of Rights that has established the most equitable nation state in the world’s history.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 5:15 PM

Jesus would vote for health care reform. I have no doubt of that.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Stop taking the Lord’s name in vain and assigning the evil motives and desires of Obama/Pelosi/Reid to the Lord.

GrannyDee on September 1, 2009 at 5:15 PM

It’s interesting that they are taking this tact now….trying to make this a simple right or wrong moral issue. As is often the case with lefties, it isn’t as simple as they like to present it to the masses, for a lot of reasons. First, they are dishonest about the number of people that don’t have it and can’t afford it. The reality is that many millions of people make enough money to be covered and choose not to be.

Most importantly, you cannot make a moral argument without taking a realistic look at how it will change the system for everyone. A big reason our costs are higher is that our system is responsible for the lion’s share of medical innovation. We do not want to settle for second best in procedures and cures like we would with technology and other lines of business. If they can develop something that works then we want it, and if it is critical enough the cost is not much of a factor. We have a system that allows us to push the envelop and make progress faster than we could dream possible. The reality is that other country tend to ride our coattails. If we concede our leadership in this area in the name of costs, who will fill that vacuum? Will anybody?

So if we are going to make moral arguments, let make the right ones. On one hand you have the uninsured. On the other you have to ask yourself if it is morally acceptable for us to create a system that slows down the development of new treatments and processes. If we create a process that disincents doctors, and the result is that we are using technologies that are decades behind where they would be otherwise….isn’t that a moral sin as well?

stldave on September 1, 2009 at 5:20 PM

Jimbo3, you need to give up the (Holy) Ghost on this one. It’s apparent to all that you’re in over your head, having only strawmen as rebuttals. More than several times, others have made specific comments addressing your attempts to spin your position.

Healthcare needs to be reformed, but by no means does Obamacare come close to doing what is necessary to achieve that end. Congress and this Administration have woven special interests throughout their ill-conceived and largely damaging healthcare reform proposals — at no point does their policy proposal address cost containment and lead to better overall care. As far as the notion that morality dictates a policy to cover each and every person who asks for healthcare coverage, let’s make certain that the government pinheads at least get the number of people requiring coverage right first — so far, their estimate is close to 400% too high. Besides the fact that the federal government has no Constitutional basis to dabble in healthcare provision, those other berift social programs mentioned by Jimbo3 actually fortify the arguments against yet another expensive federal boondoggle.

Wilbur on September 1, 2009 at 5:21 PM

If you can find something where Jesus said that the state has no business providing public schooling or insurance or health care, I would consider it.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:05 PM

The Lord told us to pay taxes to the State, as required by law.
For the rest of what we require to live and be happy, He told us to look to the Lord and within ourselves:

Matthew 6:25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?
26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?
27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his lifeb?

28“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.
29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.
30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’
32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Amen!

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 5:23 PM

I never said “government run health care”. I said “health care reform”. Right2bright picked up on that.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:25 PM

Unfortunately, Jenfidel, that doesn’t address the question of what the State should provide, does it. Taken literally, it seems to say that no one needs to work.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:28 PM

I never said “government run health care”. I said “health care reform”. Right2bright picked up on that.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:25 PM

If your stinking thinking is an example of the tiresome bureaucratic-type pedantry we can look forward to under NObamaCare and that will staff its Death Panels™, I really don’t want it!

You’re not even an interesting troll!

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 5:29 PM

The libs already used the Methodist Church to push for SCHIP, so what’s new? Use the churches when it’s beneficial and demean for the same reason.

Kissmygrits on September 1, 2009 at 5:31 PM

Unfortunately, Jenfidel, that doesn’t address the question of what the State should provide, does it. Taken literally, it seems to say that no one needs to work.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:28 PM

It leaves the State out of the equation, as it should and as we should.

The unspoken fact that Man must work was established in the book of Genesis.
Because Adam ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, he and all men after him are condemned to work by the sweat of their brow to eat.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 5:31 PM

The unspoken fact…..

So in other words, you have nothing to definitively prove your point.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:35 PM

The unspoken fact…..

So in other words, you have nothing to definitively prove your point.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:35 PM

Only the entire Holy Bible.
Jesus himself worked as a carpenter.

What is your problem with Christianity? That you CAN’T bend it to say what you want it to?

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 5:36 PM

“If you can find something where Jesus said that the state has no business providing public schooling or insurance or health care, I would consider it.”

……I’m still waiting.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:37 PM

The unspoken fact…..

So in other words, you have nothing to definitively prove your point.

Strawman used to divert the dialog. Your basic question has been answered numerous times now … how many times are you going to rephrase it?

Wilbur on September 1, 2009 at 5:38 PM

Jesus himself worked as a carpenter.

What is your problem with Christianity? That you CAN’T bend it to say what you want it to?

—Jesus also walked around preaching about the Kingdom of God with no food and no place to sleep. Which Jesus are you talking about?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:39 PM

The unspoken fact…..

So in other words, you have nothing to definitively prove your point.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:35 PM

The Lord only said exactly what He wanted to say which is why the Holy Bible is so precious to us and why we consider it God’s word.
The Lord didn’t say “Don’t work.” nor did he say “There’s no need for you to work.”
He also didn’t say “Love thy neighbor and provide for the needy, but make sure the State and the government do that, too.”
What He didn’t say is almost as important as what he did say.
Got it?

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 5:39 PM

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