Astroturfing churches?

posted at 1:38 pm on September 1, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

If you attend church in Ohio on a regular basis, you may notice a subject creeping its way into your pastor’s sermons over the next two months. A Hot Air reader working at a non-profit received this RFP from the Ohio chapter of UHCAN, the organization behind the Health Care for America Now counter-demonstrations at town-hall forums, where volunteers are trained to disrupt and shut down dissent. With elected officials escaping their constituents and fleeing back to the Beltway, UHCAN Ohio wants to start Astroturfing churches:

Request for Proposals

UHCAN Ohio is looking to engage in a short term contract with a person who has a background in working with faith communities in the Southwest Ohio area, primarily Cincinnati and its suburbs. The purpose of the contract is to engage faith community leaders to communicate with their congregations about the movement for national health care reform. We want to provide them with materials that will assist them to talk about the moral issues involved in the lack of health care for a large portion of our population, and the desire to do it during this great debate on health care in this country.

The health care reform work of UHCAN Ohio, and the coalition it staffs, Ohio Consumers for Health Coverage can be reviewed by going to www.ohioconsumersforhealth.org or www.uhcanohio.org

Deliverables:

1. Prepare a packet of materials with input from the OCHC leadership team that can be used by faith-based leaders and can be easily copied and distributed to faith leaders. Such materials are available from the Faithful Reform in Health Care web site, but may need to be supplemented with other materials and you may need to search further than the FRHC website. The packet should also be able to be posted on-line on the UHCAN Ohio and OCHC websites, with links to the appropriate original sites.

2. Reach out to forty faith congregations in the Cincinnati area and its suburbs, asking their faith leader to communicate to his/her congregation about federal health care reform in a religious/moral context. This will require face to face or at least individual phone conversations with pastors/leaders asking them to preach on the subject, or to carry out a discussion within the congregation, or to sign on to a letter to policymakers. We need a success rate of at least 33 percent. It will also involve providing them with the materials that will fit their situation.

In preparing a proposal keep in mind that because individual congregations respond to the instructions/directions they receive from their denominational leadership, this project will involve becoming familiar with the directives that have already been developed by regional or state offices of the various denominations and the various faith traditions, and probably conversations with key denominational staff to determine what is the most effective way to work within anyone denomination.

Time-Frame: End of August through October, frontloading the project so much of the contact initiation happens in late August, early to mid September.

In preparing a proposal please specify the number of hours and rate/hour required to carry out these deliverables. The contractor will be responsible for all expenses such as phone calls and mileage, so please build that into your rate. Expenses for copying materials will be borne by UHCAN Ohio.

Please submit a proposal to Kathleen Gmeiner, Ohio Consumers for Health Coverage Project Director, UHCAN Ohio, 404 S. Third St., Columbus, Ohio 43215. Questions may be directed to [redacted].

The proposal deadline is 5 PM Monday August 24, 2009.

In other words, UHCAN wants to pressure churches into transforming themselves into campaign rallies.  That kind of contact could risk their tax-exempt status (and should), but the moral problem goes beyond that.  Will pastors who agree to this disclose that they’ve been lobbied and pressured by ObamaCare advocates?  If they do, it would undermine the credibility of the sermons, but if they don’t, it undermines the credibility of the minister and the church itself.

I deliberately chose the word “creeping” in the lead.  This is a rather creepy idea, one which essentially asks ministers to become tools of the state.  It’s one thing to ask ministers to join their cause, but another entirely to launch a lobbying campaign to astroturf their sermons.  It shows the level of desperation among ObamaCare organizers as Americans reject their radical agenda.

Update: UHCAN’s Iowa affiliate can skip their meeting with Catholic bishop R. Walter Nickless, who makes an excellent point about the difference between rendering to Caesar and rendering to the Lord (emphases mine):

First and most important, the Church will not accept any legislation that mandates coverage, public or private, for abortion, euthanasia, or embryonic stem-cell research.

We refuse to allow our own parish, school, and diocesan health insurance plans to be forced to include these evils.  As a corollary of this, we insist equally on adequate protection of individual rights of conscience for patients and health care providers not to be made complicit in these evils.  A so-called reform that imposes these evils on us would be far worse than keeping the health care system we now have.

Second, the Catholic Church does not teach that “health care” as such, without distinction, is a natural right.

The “natural right” of health care is the divine bounty of food, water, and air without which all of us quickly die.  This bounty comes from God directly.  None of us own it, and none of us can morally withhold it from others.  The remainder of health care is a political, not a natural, right, because it comes from our human efforts, creativity, and compassion.

As a political right, health care should be apportioned according to need, not ability to pay or to benefit from the care.  We reject the rationing of care.  Those who are sickest should get the most care, regardless of age, status, or wealth.  But how to do this is not self-evident.  The decisions that we must collectively make about how to administer health care therefore fall under “prudential judgment.”

Third, in that category of prudential judgment, the Catholic Church does not teach that government should directly provide health care.

Unlike a prudential concern like national defense, for which government monopolization is objectively good – it both limits violence overall and prevents the obvious abuses to which private armies are susceptible – health care should not be subject to federal monopolization.

Preserving patient choice (through a flourishing private sector) is the only way to prevent a health care monopoly from denying care arbitrarily, as we learned from HMOs in the recent past.  While a government monopoly would not be motivated by profit, it would be motivated by such bureaucratic standards as quotas and defined “best procedures,” which are equally beyond the influence of most citizens.  The proper role of the government is to regulate the private sector, in order to foster healthy competition and to curtail abuses.  Therefore any legislation that undermines the viability of the private sector is suspect.

I’d disagree with Bishop Nickless on the nature of natural rights, but it might be comparing apples to oranges.  He’s talking about rights from a spiritual perspective, while I’d approach it from a political perspective.  No one has the right to someone else’s property, which is the basis of the free market.  Farmers produce food and own the fruits of their labor.  Water and especially air are more ambiguous.  However, even with that disagreement, Nickless gets the rest of it exactly right.


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……I’m still waiting.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:37 PM

I’m still waiting for you to answer the questions I asked you?

alteredbeat on September 1, 2009 at 5:41 PM

Yes, I understand why we disagree and why you haven’t convinced me of your position.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:41 PM

Your Jesus must be different than my Jesus, I guess. Mine said to look out for the poor and downtroden.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM

But, he told Peter to start his church, so lets give the money to the church and let them run health care, it is the Moral thing that Jesus’ disciples would do, right?

No worries about abortion…

barnone on September 1, 2009 at 5:41 PM

“If you can find something where Jesus said that the state has no business providing public schooling or insurance or health care, I would consider it.”

This is completely outside the point of the overall discussion, and you know it — you’re diverting with your demands to have this answered. You’re foolish to think that specific germaine to this discussion, such as ‘healthcare’, ‘public schooling’, or ‘insurance’, are topics covered in the Bible.

Why don’t you rephrase your insistance to ask whether those things are covered in the US Constitution, then we’ll have something worthwhile to talk about.

Wilbur on September 1, 2009 at 5:42 PM

They are covered by the Constitution’s commerce or taxing power clauses as they’ve been interpreted by the US Supreme Court for the last 60+ years, Wilbur.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:44 PM

So Jimbo, are you following his instructions? How much time and or money have you contributed for the poor in 2009? Or have you just been agitating for the government to force everyone to do it for you?

–Not as much as I should.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:46 PM

—Jesus also walked around preaching about the Kingdom of God with no food and no place to sleep. Which Jesus are you talking about?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:39 PM

Let me begin my reply by stating that I think you are evil, trying to twist Scripture the way you do.
That being said, you’re talking about His ministry in the last 3 years of His earthly life.
At least once, he was so hungry in the wilderness after fasting for 40 days and nights, the Devil (your pal) tempted Him by asking him to turn stones into bread.
On the other hand, he fed the 5,000 with 5 loaves and 2 fish.
Traveling without food and shelter was a test and trial of both he and of those he encountered to see whose charity would be offered or if it would be offered.
Until he began that final ministry, he worked for his own food and lived in the family home in Nazareth.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 5:48 PM

They are covered by the Constitution’s commerce or taxing power clauses as they’ve been interpreted by the US Supreme Court for the last 60+ years, Wilbur.

Really now? That’ll be news to many Constitutional scholars. Of those things you’d mentioned, education is about the only thing that the government has a peripheral right to directly regulate — and that’s really only provided at the state and municipal levels, yet the federal government ‘interpreted’ their way into that one, too. The others are ‘commerce’, all right, but the Constitution does not provide the federal government any right to participate in the methods and funding associated with those businesses.

Wilbur on September 1, 2009 at 5:48 PM

Jenfidel, why must everyone who disagrees with you be “evil? Don’t you think people can legitimately disagree about this and what the Bible says over this?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:49 PM

That’ll be news to many Constitutional scholars.

Point out three law professors who think that ObamaCare is unconstitutional, Wilbur.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:51 PM

Yes, I understand why we disagree and why you haven’t convinced me of your position.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:41 PM

I’m not really trying to convince you of my position.
I’m more concerned with other hapless readers who might think you are right and are actually quoting Scripture or citing real Christian tenets.

You are a Leftist parrot, merely repeating vapid talking points for NObamaCare that only obliquely touch on the Christian Faith.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 5:52 PM

Jenfidel, why must everyone who disagrees with you be “evil? Don’t you think people can legitimately disagree about this and what the Bible says over this?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:49 PM

You are committing the sin of blasphemy saying “Jesus would want us to pass health care reform.”
Imparting any such petty motives to the Lord and Savior of all Mankind can be nothing but evil.
You haven’t said one truthful thing about what the Bible says.
You’ve obviously either never read it or you’ve read some weird translation that was so watered down, it completely perverted the import of the text.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 5:54 PM

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:49 PM

How many times have you actually read The Bible through?

kingsjester on September 1, 2009 at 5:55 PM

The National Council of Churches apparently agrees with me. Do you think those are not Christian churches?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:55 PM

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:55 PM

Man, your dancing around rivals Fred Astaire. Nice attempts at deflection though.

kingsjester on September 1, 2009 at 5:57 PM

What do the leftists, liberals, and atheists have anything in common with the Gospel of Christ? Its getting more difficult to find a Bible believing churches. This is not surprizing because the Lord told us many will fall away in the last days. I am not sure if Christ would be fore the health bill but the first thing on His mind would be the condition of your soul and whether you have repented or not. Many will say they don’t believe but after they realize they made a mistake after death it will be too late. The churches and preachers better worry about preaching the gospel instead of worrying about social conditions as its first priority.

garydt on September 1, 2009 at 5:57 PM

garydt on September 1, 2009 at 5:57 PM

Preach, Brother, preach.

kingsjester on September 1, 2009 at 5:58 PM

Several times (New Testament). It was the Catholic translation.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 6:00 PM

Point out three law professors who think that ObamaCare is unconstitutional, Wilbur.

Here we go with that strawman thing again. Tell you what, why don’t YOU run off and undertake that little assignment — you may actually learn something.

Aside from the fact that there will be Constitutional challenges on this healthcare policy pitched by the Snakeoil Salesman in Chief, there are a number of other areas that these villains have crossed the Constitutional line over the past eight months. Irregular bankruptcy proceedings, a glut of Czars with no Congressional, oversight, and the handing over of fiscal policy and containment to the Federal Reserve (rather than Congress) are only a few that jump to mind.

Hey, I know that you’re just watching re-runs in your basement while you chat here, but I really need to get back to work — the government needs my tax contributions.

Wilbur on September 1, 2009 at 6:00 PM

“Point out three law professors who think that ObamaCare is unconstitutional, Wilbur.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:51 PM

Here’s 2:
Illegal Health ReformFinding a 3rd or even more shouldn’t be a problem!

Seems you switched your line of attack, didn’t you, buddy?

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 6:03 PM

The National Council of Churches apparently agrees with me. Do you think those are not Christian churches?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:55 PM

No. I don’t think those are Christian, Bible-believing churches.
Happy now?

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 6:05 PM

I have looked, Wilbur. Almost no one really believes that a majority of the current Supreme Court will find ObamaCare unconstitutional given the Supreme Court precedents, although you might get one (Thomas) to disagre.

See http://volokh.com/posts/1250981450.shtml.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 6:07 PM

Yes, Jenfidel. You have just called perhaps 60 million people non-Christians. Are you happy now, Ms. Bigot?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 6:09 PM

I agree with Jenifidel that many of those churches are non “born again” preaching churches and I came out from one of those churches. I belonged to that church and never heard the gospel until I heard it from a bible believing one. The gospel is simple but people have made it so complicated. Its so understandable that children easily understand it. My old denomination even supports pro abortion groups and can you believe that?

garydt on September 1, 2009 at 6:10 PM

Yes, Jenfidel. You have just called perhaps 60 million people non-Christians. Are you happy now, Ms. Bigot?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 6:09 PM

I’m not a bigot, or do you routinely call Bible-believing born again Christians “bigots?”
I pity and pray for those people for the fate that awaits them on the Other Side.
I believe the Bible says when it comes to such people of phony and apostate faith, the Lord promises to “spew them out of His mouth.”
This is a fate I wouldn’t wish on anyone.

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 6:16 PM

Yes, Jen the Lord will spew out phoney, fake and lukewarm so called Christians and no one will call Him judgemental in doing so. Many people are so worried about world conditions that they forget their spirital priority.

garydt on September 1, 2009 at 6:19 PM

You were very quick to judge the Christianity of the members of the churches belonging to the NCC without knowing 99.5% of them (or more).

A bigot is a person who is obstinately and irrationally, often intolerantly, devoted to his or her own religion, political party, organization, belief, or opinion, especially one who regards or treats those of differing devotion with hatred and intolerance.

I’d say the term fits.

I’m signing off now.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 6:22 PM

You were very quick to judge the Christianity of the members of the churches belonging to the NCC without knowing 99.5% of them (or more).

Their beliefs and teachings are not in line with Scripture.
It is this which renders them not authentically Christian.
Individual personalities doesn’t come into it.

A bigot is a person who is obstinately and irrationally, often intolerantly, devoted to his or her own religion, political party, organization, belief, or opinion, especially one who regards or treats those of differing devotion with hatred and intolerance.

I’d say the term fits.

The “bigot” you are talking about is the Lord Himself.
Those are His words in His Word.
There’s nothing hateful or intolerant about it.
What He says, goes.
He is the God of love and loves us but doesn’t allow for any other gods before Him, especially the false gods of worldly politics and worldly sins like abortion and homosexual marriage being passed off as “righteous behavior” by these so-called “Christian churches.”

I’m signing off now.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 6:22 PM

Typical Leftist Liberal: name-call and then declare victory and leave because you’re getting your butt whipped!

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 6:31 PM

I live in Norteast Cincinnati. I’ll visit the office of Good Samaritan and ask them about this.

Also, I’ll show up at ALL Masses this weekend and observe and report back.

Thanks for the heads up Ed.

Sapwolf on September 1, 2009 at 6:32 PM

Jenfidel on September 1, 2009 at 6:31 PM

I would add also for Catholics that what many teach are not only not in the Bible/Scripture but NOT in the Catechism of the Catholic Church either.

Those that try to build a new material Heaven on Earth are doing the Devil’s work for him.

The Good Samaritan did not phone 911 and then take off to his Obamacare rally to FORCE the Empire to give healthcare to everyone free.

The Good Samaritan gave of himself. Christ asks the same. Give to God, and Give to your fellow man. He did not say use temporal force to attempt madness like government run healthcare. He also never mentioned that healthcare is a right.

There are snakes all around us.

Sapwolf on September 1, 2009 at 6:46 PM

Hey, it worked for Hitler. Why not?

mjk on September 1, 2009 at 1:47 PM

No it didn’t. You are studying your history. Many churches and clergy were against Nazism. Do your homework.

Sapwolf on September 1, 2009 at 6:51 PM

In preparing a proposal please specify the number of hours and rate/hour required to carry out these deliverables. The contractor will be responsible for all expenses such as phone calls and mileage, so please build that into your rate.

Health Care for America Now is paying preachers to urge their congregations to vote for ObamaCare! Unions haven’t contracted with preachers to help people without JOBS or prepare for the H1N1 virus…

TN Mom on September 1, 2009 at 7:56 PM

Separation of church from state anyone?

One Angry Christian on September 1, 2009 at 8:17 PM

Your Jesus must be different than my Jesus, I guess. Mine said to look out for the poor and downtroden.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM

We’re doing that.
Quite thoroughly infact.
The poor in this country have a better standard of living than many in other countries. So whats your point?
And I don’t mean the poor in other countries.

Itchee Dryback on September 1, 2009 at 8:52 PM

Any church that goes along with this sort of thing should have their tax exempt status revoked.
Its a real no brainer imo.

Where are the separation of church and state howlers now?

Itchee Dryback on September 1, 2009 at 8:59 PM

Is it just me or does this Obama guy seem a tad evil?

- The Cat

MirCat on September 1, 2009 at 2:05 PM

A tad?

2Brave2Bscared on September 1, 2009 at 9:40 PM

Your Jesus must be different than my Jesus, I guess. Mine said to look out for the poor and downtroden.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM

Chapter and verse please where Jesus commanded that the government should steal money from one group of people and hand it over to another.

Thanks.

2Brave2Bscared on September 1, 2009 at 9:42 PM

“faith leader?” uh. huh.

mimi1220 on September 1, 2009 at 10:07 PM

Your Jesus must be different than my Jesus, I guess. Mine said to look out for the poor and downtroden.

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM

Let’s lay it out.

Jesus commands each of us to engage in acts of charity to care for the poor. By definition, acts of charity of this sort are VOLUNTARY responses to the call of Christ.

ObamaCare doesn’t qualify. It is not voluntary — it is mandated, with financial support being required from me under penalty of law. And it not an action in response to the call of Christ, but to the coercion of government instead.

Therefore, while the goal is noble, the means are fundamentally opposed to what Jesus called for us to do. He commanded each of us who follows him — you and me and every other believer — to act. But he didn’t demand that we use the force of the state to coerce the unwilling or disinclined to act contrary to their conscience or will.

RhymesWithRight on September 1, 2009 at 11:39 PM

Olympia snowe
this is off topic but it has to be posted here. She is going to cave and side with the libs on healthcare. Burn her phones at her offices. Pick a zip code or a town in Maine, call her office saying you represent a group of seniors and let her know she’s out if she votes with the libs. Better yet, take a page out of alinskys rules for radicals and say your moderate democrats against the bill. Stop her now before she caves! Call now!!

texaninfidel on September 1, 2009 at 11:45 PM

I remember Jesus whipping the money changers from the steps of the temple and thou shall not steal as a commandmant, not a sugestion.

Giving to the poor/ILLEGAL ALIENS healthcare is what individuals do, not a state mandated requirement to STEAL MY MONEY and give to ILLEGAL ALIENS. Can I do that in their home countries?

If you agree with the premise that you must give to the poor, how can you be for abortion when God COMMANDS YOU TO NOT MURDER?

JUST ANOTHER LIBERAL HYPOCRITE.

dthorny on September 2, 2009 at 12:03 AM

He is………(drumroll please)….Downright evil.

PappyD61 on September 2, 2009 at 12:19 AM

Jimbo, if you read the gospels several times as you have stated, then you missed the most important part of it. Jesus did not want us to do good deeds so we could get the glory for ourselves but He wanted us to follow Him by being born again and repenting. Once doing this then the Holy Spirit leads you do do good things in the name of Christ. Check Ephesians ch. 2 verse 10. Any other good works outside of Christ is condered filthy rags.

garydt on September 2, 2009 at 12:20 AM

Worthless to the Republic.

And the nominees are:
Olympia Snowe
Susan Collins
John McCain
Lindsay Graham
John Cornyn
or….any other RINOs you can think of….

PappyD61 on September 2, 2009 at 12:21 AM

UHCAN is astroturfing in Cincinnati because the Tea Party movement is very strong in that area, possibly the largest group in the nation. There will be a tea party at Voice of America Park in Cincinnati this Saturday with 20,000 to 30,000 people expected to attend.

HellCat on September 2, 2009 at 12:57 AM

Ephesians ch. 2 verse 10. Any other good works outside of Christ is condered filthy rags.

garydt on September 2, 2009 at 12:20 AM

Ding ding ding!! You are correct, sir!

“Whatever is done unto the least of them, you do to me.”

What you do, because you choose to do it, for those less fortunate, is like you’re doing it for Jesus. He is concerned with your state of mind, your spiritual being, not so much that the the poor guy gets what he needs by force. It’s in the giving.

gina4 on September 2, 2009 at 1:14 AM

The National Council of Churches apparently agrees with me. Do you think those are not Christian churches?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:55 PM

Man: “I’m worried I didn’t give enough time to the Church, or go often enough, or dress the right way, like all the other people there. Tell me, God, was I disrespectful, all those years? Did I offend you in any way by my actions in that church?”

God: “I don’t know, son, I don’t believe I’ve ever been in that church”

gina4 on September 2, 2009 at 1:25 AM

This is a BIG mistake. I am beginning to see Obama as the great divider.

Osis on September 2, 2009 at 7:37 AM

Wolves in sheeps’ clothing, like Judas of old they say:”This money could have been used to help the poor” when they are inwardly theives from the treasury. They appear to be good on the outside, but their intentions are evil. Look at Obama’s own brother, living in filth. Ask, could I allow my brother to suffer as Obama is allowing his? Christ spoke well of them when he called them hypocrites, caring only about outward appearences.

Osis on September 2, 2009 at 7:53 AM

The Bible says “don’t murder”. It doesn’t say “abortion is murder” and it doesn’t say “fetuses are accorded the full rights of human beings”.

DTHorney, IMHO you are just another LYING scumbag who, like his pastor, LIES about the Bible for political purposes.

And RhymeswithRight and others, point out to me where Jesus said that acts of charity were the exclusive means to help the poor.

Jimbo3 on September 2, 2009 at 9:19 AM

Jimbo3 on September 2, 2009 at 9:19 AM

Here are just a few of the things Gods says about life in the womb:

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. Jeremiah 1:5

The Lord hath called me from the womb: from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 KJV

Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us within our mothers? Job 31:15

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13-14

That’s not a puppy growing inside a woman.

kingsjester on September 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM

God (singular) not Gods

kingsjester on September 2, 2009 at 9:31 AM

The National Council of Churches apparently agrees with me. Do you think those are not Christian churches?

Jimbo3 on September 1, 2009 at 5:55 PM

NCC is a VERY Lefty organization.

Jeff from WI on September 2, 2009 at 9:59 AM

And where in any of those verses does the Bible say that the fetus was to be treated like a full human being? “Before I formed you…” says too much. If you believe that verse prohibits abortion, then you are required to believe that artificial birth control is murder as well.

Jimbo3 on September 2, 2009 at 10:02 AM

FYI–Exodus 21:22-25:

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

I understand different churches and different versions of the Bible translate or interpret this verse differently, but most rabbis believe this verse is translated correctly this way. Considering the Jews have more experience (historical and language-wise) than most of us, and considering they effectively wrote the Bible, I’ll willing to go with their interpretation.

Jimbo3 on September 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM

Jimbo3 on September 2, 2009 at 10:02 AM

You aer trying desperately to hijack this thread because you can not defend Obama using Houses of Worship to promote his Marxist goals. It’s a propaganda effort of vile proportions. And don’t tell us you don’t support Obama. Because your efforts in hijacking this Thread show that statement to be false.

kingsjester on September 2, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Kingjester, I am only responding to you. I am not trying to hijack this thread. You cannot cite a Bible verse that expressly says it is against the Bible to support public schools or to fund or provide healthcare (whether by co-ops, government, or otherwise). It is clear that some churches are very supportive of Obama’s goals and will be receptive to the planned contacts. If it is propaganda, then the activities of Concerned Women for America, Focus on the Family, Liberty Council, etc. in church education and vote registration drives were several times worse IMHO.

You’re accusing me of being a troll because you have utterly failed to convince me and now you’re apparently trying to silence me.

Jimbo3 on September 2, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Jimbo again you ignore the Lord’s commandment in John 3 verse 3 that you have to be born again to get to heaven. You also ignore Ephesians ch. 2 verse 10 that after you recieve the Holy Spirit we do the work of the Lord for His Glory and not ours. I have came from a non bible believing church and I know how they think. I had a difficult time trying to find a fellow believer in the congregation so I finally left the church to find a bible believing one. I can’t support how you can support abortion. You know of course that men who were Spirit Filled wrote the bible. Remember Jimbo, the most important thing is to be right with the Lord rather then trying to do good deeds for your own glory.

garydt on September 2, 2009 at 10:24 AM

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