WaPo: How CIA interrogation turned KSM into an intelligence asset

posted at 6:07 pm on August 29, 2009 by Allahpundit

I don’t know whether to applaud them for publishing this or boo them for dumping it on the day of Teddy’s funeral. In another universe it’d be a narrative-shatterer but in this one it’s noise, for the simple reason that nothing — nothing — will dent the absolutism of the anti-”torture” side. Any fair-minded supporter of enhanced interrogation would concede that it’s morally problematic, that the info extracted may be unreliable, that it’s susceptible to abuse; opponents concede nothing, up to and including (or especially) the fact that sometimes it might just work. They can’t. If they did, they’d have to join the rest of us in honestly struggling with whether the ends of possibly saving innocent lives is justified by the means of inflicting suffering on someone in custody. And given how most Americans would resolve that dilemma — and how Obama’s interrogation team will surely resolve it if, god forbid, the situation ever presents itself — that’s not something they have any incentive to do.

So here’s how this’ll be spun. Unless a detainee sits up on the table mid-waterboarding and coughs up everything he knows, there’s no way to conclude that information given up after enhanced interrogation was the result of that interrogation. The fact that KSM kept his mouth shut good and tight until the CIA got rough with him? Just an amazing coincidence. Correlation does not equal causation; “torture” never works; “ticking bomb” scenarios will never exist in reality; wash, rinse, repeat.

These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its “preeminent source” on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques…

Over a few weeks, he was subjected to an escalating series of coercive methods, culminating in 7 1/2 days of sleep deprivation, while diapered and shackled, and 183 instances of waterboarding. After the month-long torment, he was never waterboarded again.

“What do you think changed KSM’s mind?” one former senior intelligence official said this week after being asked about the effect of waterboarding. “Of course it began with that.”…

One former U.S. official with detailed knowledge of how the interrogations were carried out said Mohammed, like several other detainees, seemed to have decided that it was okay to stop resisting after he had endured a certain amount of pressure.

“Once the harsher techniques were used on [detainees], they could be viewed as having done their duty to Islam or their cause, and their religious principles would ask no more of them,” said the former official, who requested anonymity because the events are still classified. “After that point, they became compliant. Obviously, there was also an interest in being able to later say, ‘I was tortured into cooperating.’”

It’s a canard of EIT opponents that non-coercive interrogation will be more effective, but if you take that bold-faced part seriously, that’s simply not true for the sort of hardcore jihadist freak who populates the upper echelons of Al Qaeda. In fact, it suggests that even if they want to talk, they might be religiously enjoined until a certain amount of pressure is applied. That’s a disturbing complication to the moral dilemma here, which of course doesn’t exist for the absolutists.

Read the whole piece, as WaPo also cautions that KSM claimed he gave plenty of false information to interrogators in order to stop the waterboarding. I believe it, but I also believe the details in Stephen Hayes’s post for the Standard about how info from KSM helped the feds bust an Al Qaeda mule in 2003. Read all of that too, as it’s an indispensable gloss on the WaPo piece — bearing in mind, of course, that if you oppose enhanced interrogation now, nothing you’re about to encounter will change that even a tiny bit.


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I blame Cheney..

the_nile on August 29, 2009 at 6:10 PM

If Kennedy’s career was worth killing Mary Jo, as the libs say, then new intel was worth making this creep uncomfortable.

jgapinoy on August 29, 2009 at 6:10 PM

I doubt this will change anyone’s mind on either side. It pretty much confirms EITs for those who support it. Those who oppose it will. Until something happens, that is, and they’ll join the chorus of “why didn’t you connect the dots”. Especially if it’s a convenient hammer against a sitting elected Republican.

Machete_Bug on August 29, 2009 at 6:11 PM

Not only was Khalid Sheik “the Hedgehog” Mohammed giving up the info after getting a little moist in his nostrils, he was holding SEMINARS into Al Qaeda plans/ops/techniques for our intel folks.

I want to see a flow chart overlaid with a timeline. I want to see the information gleaned before and after this. I want to know the second, third and fourth order effects of the information that KSM provided us with. My family is safer today because KSM got scuffed up and I have absolutely no qualms with that.

The greater moral crime in this case would have been to have KSM in custody, and then not accessed the information he possessed, and watched the consequences thereof. I am glad that did not happen.

Thank you to the CIA for being rough and ready to do violence on our behalf.

An inconvenient truth it surely is..

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 6:14 PM

If they did, they’d have to join the rest of us in honestly struggling with whether the ends of possibly saving innocent lives is justified by the means of inflicting suffering on someone in custody.

And there you have it — that is the beginning and end of understanding the divide on this issue. The left is stuck in the equivalent of an 8th grader’s moral universe.

Purple Fury on August 29, 2009 at 6:17 PM

Khalid Sheik “the Hedgehog” Mohammed

With the beard gone, and just a mustache, I do think he looks like porn star Ron Jeremy’s long lost brother…

Machete_Bug on August 29, 2009 at 6:18 PM

Boy, the EIT stuff aside, this story is incredibly fascinating! What a really neat read.

Weight of Glory on August 29, 2009 at 6:19 PM

Dick Cheney is going to have a few “I told you so” drinks tonight and Barack Throckmorton Obama needs another cup of STFU…

Leadership

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 6:21 PM

Be sure to read all of the intellectually-challenged comments that accompany the article. Public schooling at its finest!

Del Dolemonte on August 29, 2009 at 6:21 PM

The problem with defending the morale high ground against all comers, is that, eventually, they call in the big guns, and all you get for your troubles is a grave with a nice view.

And the morale relativism that the press and the leftists use to compare what they call OUR use of torture, to what our enemies use is beyond repugnant.

The ones complaining about “torture” haven’t a clue to what that word really means, and what forms of it have been used against our own men and women.

AW1 Tim on August 29, 2009 at 6:22 PM

I’m really looking forward to Cheney on Fox News Sunday tomorrow. I might even watch it twice.

BuckeyeSam on August 29, 2009 at 6:22 PM

Machete_Bug on August 29, 2009 at 6:18 PM

Do a Google image search, a side-by-side of the two was done years ago.

Del Dolemonte on August 29, 2009 at 6:23 PM

I saw the WaPo at the grocery store and this was an above-the-fold front page story. I’d never pay for the rag but I was stunned at a)the story and b) the location and c) the source.

Not only did Obama and Holder lose this argument miserably a few months back, their coming back for a second can of whoop ass and it’s even worse than the first.

Keep it up there champ.

Failure.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 6:27 PM

I’m really looking forward to Cheney on Fox News Sunday tomorrow. I might even watch it twice.

BuckeyeSam on August 29, 2009 at 6:22 PM
Same here, and I hope he opens up with both barrels on Obama and everyone else that thinks the last eight years without an attack are the result of luck.

fourdeucer on August 29, 2009 at 6:29 PM

Looks like KSM could stunt double for Ron Jeremy once Holder sheds a tear and springs him from the can.

Values

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 6:30 PM

KSM just needs a bath, some flea powder and a good Brazilian waxing.

whitetop on August 29, 2009 at 6:31 PM

***

The ones complaining about “torture” haven’t a clue to what that word really means, and what forms of it have been used against our own men and women.

AW1 Tim on August 29, 2009 at 6:22 PM

If it doesn’t have permanent consequences, it doesn’t begin to constitute torture. I like the broadcasters who are shocked about interrogators lying to terrorists by showing a simulated dead body or threatening to kill family members. And the stuff about sleep deprivation? For crying out loud, I went without sleep for four days during my fraternity Hell Week years ago in undergrad. Unpleasant? Yes. Effective? Yes. Torture? F*** no.

We want these people on our wall. We need them on our wall!

BuckeyeSam on August 29, 2009 at 6:32 PM

Any fair-minded supporter of enhanced interrogation would concede that it’s morally problematic,

There is not even the hint of a moral problem with the sorts of enhanced interrogation that we are talking about. Not a hint. Does that mean that I’m not fair-minded? That declaration would be more morally problematic than enhanced interrogation of high level detainees.

that the info extracted may be unreliable,

But it is clearly more reliable (when the detainee thinks that the info is being checked and that he will suffer if it is a lie) than any information one gets from having a nice chat. People lie all the time, without any reason. They lie much less when they are facing punishment, and usually the worse the punishment, the less they lie. In the other direction … not so much. The Precedent lied his whole way through the campaign and for the duration fo his Precedency. I’m willing to bet that he would stop that if he thought he was going to be held to account. Just a guess, but I think so.

I just don’t get why people think that information gotten using unhanced techniques is any less reliable than information gotten in any other way. This goes to the confusion between looking for confessions and looking for actionable info.

that it’s susceptible to abuse;

Meh. The constraints were so much, to begin, that I’m not even sure how someone could turn it into abuse. One can abuse the tactic of offering positive reinforcment, too.

progressoverpeace on August 29, 2009 at 6:33 PM

I do not equate EIT with torture. Torture is in the eyes of the beholder. EIT, however, has a dutiful purpose–the obtaining of information. Torture, however, is the subjugation and infliction of maiming and pain for no good reason other than the jollies of the ghoul doing it. Torture is a crime. EIT is intelligence gathering. Both may hurt, but both ain’t crimes.

Administration losers.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 6:34 PM

“The ones complaining about “torture” haven’t a clue to what that word really means, and what forms of it have been used against our own men and women.”

AW1 Tim on August 29, 2009 at 6:22 PM

As a 64 year old veteran I can honestly say that AW1 Tim has hit the nail squarely on its head.

Given the panty-waist approach to intelligence gathering our Dear Leader and his ilk currently subscribe to, we will be the only civilized nation in the free world that REFUSES to protect her citizens.

If they think water-boarding is torture, they ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

GoldenEagle4444 on August 29, 2009 at 6:36 PM

Ironic that the Left would be so up-in-arms about the fake-drowning of terrorist, but able to pooh-pooh the real drowning of a 28 year old American Democrat.

How terrified was she? For how long?

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 6:38 PM

I don’t like the idea of using these techniques, but I also know that sometimes it is necessary. What about the moral responsibility to save lives?

Terrye on August 29, 2009 at 6:42 PM

See EIT in the context of nuclear weapons–both have pros and cons. For example, we have possessed nuclear weapons and delivery capability via land, sea, air for 60+ years. We have layers upon layers of procedures, controls, stop gap and security measures to insure the safety and handling of those weapons. Our track record on this is nearly impeccable with a few missteps, but otherwise pretty sterling. If mishandling or loss of control would occur, an inadvertent detonation could plausibly happen, but never has. They are so tightly controlled because the damage would be so horrific and “morally reprehensible” that it requires such controls.

Now consider EIT in the same light. Definitely has morally reprehensible qualities about it and there are pros and cons to its usage, not the least of which is the obtaining of actionable intelligence that may save lives and US property. The development of proper layers of control in the use of EIT, similar to the framework used in nuclear weapons handling, essentially safeguards those techniques for only the most appropriate usages, just like nuclear weapons. Because, as we can see, the morally reprehensible fallout, if they fall into the wrong hands, is significant.

I fail to accept the false premise that the actions of guards at Abu Ghraib required the imposing of new restrictions on our personnel who are trained to administer EIT in the obtaining of sensitive information for our national security. Moreover, I do not accept the POTUS or the AG’s arguments that CIA officers who have aided in keeping us safe during dangerous times should be pursued with investigations. As COL Jessup quipped, “you don’t know a damn thing about guarding a nation.”

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 6:43 PM

I don’t like the idea of using these techniques, but I also know that sometimes it is necessary. What about the moral responsibility to save lives?

Terrye on August 29, 2009 at 6:42 PM

We scare them, but don’t actually hurt them. We pour water up their noses. What’s not to like?

Buford Gooch on August 29, 2009 at 6:44 PM

Holder would definitely waterboard him if he had info on Bush’s National Guard service.

whitetop on August 29, 2009 at 6:45 PM

Gee Terrye, we could recite them a wordy say
nothing speech and say “pretty please”, or just
scare the wee wee out of them. We don’t maime ?sp?
them or cause anyone to disapear. AND, of course
no one likes it!

spacewife on August 29, 2009 at 6:49 PM

AND, of course
no one likes it!

spacewife on August 29, 2009 at 6:49 PM

Doesn’t bother me in the least, they’re animals and nothing else.

thomasaur on August 29, 2009 at 6:54 PM

The left will sign on to EIT when they finally understand that killing civilians/taxpayers is detrimental to funding their social policies.

Then again, they may never make that connection because basically they are stupid. Until then they will direct their hatred on civilians and indulge in their weird love of terrorists.

Liberalism, as currently defined, is truly a mental disease.

BTW, does anyone doubt that liberals would object to waterboarding conservatives? Or… for that matter anything more gruesome?

Cody1991 on August 29, 2009 at 6:55 PM

Although these measures worked and were necessary, let’s remember, after all, that this was a government run program.

And those things can get out of control.

Y’know, trust but verify, so to speak?

SteveMG on August 29, 2009 at 6:56 PM

It’s rather horrifying that some on the left are willing to say Mary Jo Kopechne’s sacrifice was worth it to get the political career of Kennedy but to distress a murderer to save other lives is not worth it.

aikidoka on August 29, 2009 at 6:58 PM

What you seem to be saying is that there is an unwritten contract between interrogators and upper level Al Qaeda types that included waterboarding or some equivalent.
Unfortunately Obama has shown that he does not even understand the importance of respecting even written contracts.

snaggletoothie on August 29, 2009 at 6:58 PM

The leaders of the Terrorist’s Rights Party (TRP) – Pelosi, Reed … they often criticized President Bush and said he didn’t listen to Commanders in the field when it came to the war in Iraq.

Yet – aren’t the TRP leaders also guilty of not listening to the CIA “Commanders” in the field – most of whom universally agree that these tactics kept us safe?

I laughed my ass off the other night when I saw Kristen Powers pontificating her expertise on what does and doesn’t make a person talk. KP … LOL what a joke. What is her military experience? ZIP.

What’s her law ENFORCEMENT experience? ZIP.

Kirsten Powers has a degree in freaking English – yeah – I take her word over a CIA field agent any day.

This is the way this needs to be fought people – expose the people who are anti EIT. They are universally (with the exception of John McCain and we can understand his position) … they are universally a bunch of namby pamby liberal arts majors who have no experience in defending this country – nor any real inclination to gain any.

We have the Plumber here telling us what we need to do with the sink to make it work – why are we ignoring him and listing to the Avon lady instead?

This is crazy.

Oh and, regarding KSM – I don’t think they were tough enough on him. However – I am so pround of the CIA for what they did to keep my kids safe from these monsters. We owe these people folks – we cannot leave them on the field of battle while they are torn to shreds by the Obama and the TRP.

HondaV65 on August 29, 2009 at 7:01 PM

I’ll agree that it’s morally problematic once I hear a jihadist 1) is missing digits, 2) is burned beyond recognition, or 3) has been strapped to a device with “Agony” in the name.

Lehosh on August 29, 2009 at 7:06 PM

Try to see KSM in the context of Obamacare—”we were just trying to wring some inefficiency out of him”

Unlike healthcare, national defense is a right and proper function of the US government.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 7:07 PM

We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission – to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so when thirty years from now our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say “Vietnam” and not mean a desert, “WATERBOARDING” not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.

John Kerry on April 23, 1971 at 11:30AM

ericdijon on August 29, 2009 at 7:12 PM

Good thread Allah. Keep shining the light of truth for us to see the evil that lurks in the shadows. /O gawd I am corny.

Geochelone on August 29, 2009 at 7:15 PM

I’m really looking forward to Cheney on Fox News Sunday tomorrow. I might even watch it twice.

BuckeyeSam on August 29, 2009 at 6:22 PM

Yeah can’t wait to see what he has to say. Cheney is awesome!

terryannonline on August 29, 2009 at 7:16 PM

Not a fan of interrogation like this in general.

With KSM? He deserves much, much, much worse. But I worry that the program, or rather, the doctrine of the program, will metastasize and encompass much more than it was intended for originally, such as less hardened bad guys captured in Iraq.

This guy writes about abuses he saw that, in his opinion, impacted the quality of information we gathered over there:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html

Our new interrogation methods led to one of the war’s biggest breakthroughs: We convinced one of Zarqawi’s associates to give up the al-Qaeda in Iraq leader’s location. On June 8, 2006, U.S. warplanes dropped two 500-pound bombs on a house where Zarqawi was meeting with other insurgent leaders.

Keep in mind that although he asserts his methods would probably apply to hardened cases, in my untrained eyes, KSM would be too hard for that.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 7:16 PM

Any fair-minded supporter of enhanced interrogation would concede that it’s morally problematic, that the info extracted may be unreliable, that it’s susceptible to abuse; opponents concede nothing, up to and including (or especially) the fact that sometimes it might just work. They can’t.

That about as succinctly explains this as anything I’ve read.

To use the tactics on human beings – even vile ones – is morally troubling. But not to employ these measure to prevent futures losses is even more moral troubling.

So, we try to strike a balance where the techniques are used with great supervision and close monitoring to prevent real and deep harm.

We struggle with the questions raised by this moral problem.

The opponents don’t even ackowledge that a question needs to be asked.

SteveMG on August 29, 2009 at 7:18 PM

The opponents don’t even ackowledge that a question needs to be asked.

SteveMG on August 29, 2009 at 7:18 PM

the opponents have no morals except insofar as criticism of our vexing moral positions will provide them with political advantage.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 7:23 PM

I wonder why drudge isn’t redlining this. He must be tappin’ into what Teddy left behind now that there’s the first surplus of booze occurring on the East Coast–the first in the last 60 years.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 7:25 PM

I can’t wait for tomorrow. Mr. Chaney sits down with Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday. It is supposed to be explosive. I hope he tells the current Administration how the cow ate the cabbage.

kingsjester on August 29, 2009 at 7:26 PM

Cheney not Chaney

kingsjester on August 29, 2009 at 7:27 PM

I was morally troubled by people leaping from the top floors of a 1,000 foot tall building; not so much by trying to keep it from happening again.

Bishop on August 29, 2009 at 7:29 PM

SteveMG on August 29, 2009 at 7:18 PM

Sorry, Steve, but life in a normal US prison can be 1000 times more terrifying than any of these enhanced interrogation techniques. Life in a French prison is definitely 100000 times worse.

I find this whole “moral dilemma” with EIT to be puzzling, at best.

progressoverpeace on August 29, 2009 at 7:31 PM

I was morally troubled by people leaping from the top floors of a 1,000 foot tall building; not so much by trying to keep it from happening again.

Bishop on August 29, 2009 at 7:29 PM

Great point.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 7:39 PM

I can’t wait for tomorrow. Mr. Chaney sits down with Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday. It is supposed to be explosive. I hope he tells the current Administration how the cow ate the cabbage.
kingsjester on August 29, 2009 at 7:26 PM

The Democrats should stick with attacking Aunt Mabel and Uncle Carl as “Town Hall Terrorists.”

Dick Cheney’s got teeth.

logis on August 29, 2009 at 7:40 PM

From Politico:

The Washington Post leads today with an extraordinary story cutting against the conclusions of a series of recent government and media reports to cast as straight news — with a few hedges and qualifications — that waterboarding and sleep deprivation worked like a charm to turn Kalid Sheik Mohammed from an enemy into an “asset.”

Funny dat yo. The WaPo sees FoxNews kicking righteous ass on the newsfront and decides to get back to that thing called…..news reporting and investigation….yeaaahhh, that’s the ticket…

Carrying the water for Obama was getting awfully heavy (and expensive). I half heartedly picked up a copy (didn’t buy it though) sheesh… that’d be sacrilege…

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 7:45 PM

So here’s how this’ll be spun. Unless a detainee sits up on the table mid-waterboarding and coughs up everything he knows, there’s no way to conclude that information given up after enhanced interrogation was the result of that interrogation. The fact that KSM kept his mouth shut good and tight until the CIA got rough with him? Just an amazing coincidence. Correlation does not equal causation; “torture” never works; “ticking bomb” scenarios will never exist in reality; wash, rinse, repeat.

Spot on, Allah, that’s precisely how it will be spun. These people, they live in a state of denial.

As for the vast majority of Americans and certainly me, we’re into waterboard, rinse, repeat.

TXUS on August 29, 2009 at 7:45 PM

Jeez. That was a really, really good post AP.

Stephen M on August 29, 2009 at 7:46 PM

I was morally troubled by people leaping from the top floors of a 1,000 foot tall building; not so much by trying to keep it from happening again.

Bishop on August 29, 2009 at 7:29 PM

I am repulsed by women being beaten and stoned according to Sharia law. I am repulsed by the corpses of civilians being used to house bombs. I am repulsed by those who use intellectually challenged citizens to carry bombs.

I am disgusted by autocratic societies that regard half of their population to be less than second class citizens, specifically women.

I am thoroughly disgusted by liberals who are so confused by their moral equivalency that they cannot ardently defend the ideals they claim to hold.

I am terrified by our country making a parlor game of discussing whether or not an avowed terrorist should have water blown up his nose or lose a few night’s sleep simply because they lack the fortitude to stand up to international pressure representing societies that are inferior to ours – and they are inferior.

In fact, my own people are beginning to terrify me.

But, that’s just a woman’s point of view.

Cody1991 on August 29, 2009 at 7:49 PM

Ironic that the Left would be so up-in-arms about the fake-drowning of terrorist, but able to pooh-pooh the real drowning of a 28 year old American Democrat.

How terrified was she? For how long?

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 6:38 PM

Mary Jo didn’t drown, she suffocated. There have been various estimates of how long she may have been alive in the car, ranging from 40 minutes to well over an hour. It’s sad to think of her in the pitch black car, trying not to let her terror overwhelm her, thinking if she could just hang on a little longer then surely Ted or the rescuers he’d called would arrive to save her. As she slowly asphyxiated, how could she ever imagine that her hero was back in his hotel, complaining about a loud party and crawling into his warm bed?

AZCoyote on August 29, 2009 at 7:52 PM

boo them for dumping it on the day of Teddy’s funeral

(***kaf***hak***)

I spoke no ill of the sick and I’ll speak no ill of the dead
but every network, the wires, papers, radio is full of this funeral. More important things are happening than Mr Kennedy’s wake.

I don’t care what they did to KSM. What the Barry administration does with him in the future is all that matters. If he breathes free air again…..grrrrrrrrrrrr….nevermind. I’ll wait to vent my spleen on a thread more worthy. Like MegMac.

Limerick on August 29, 2009 at 7:53 PM

For some, like McCain this is a matter of principle. For many, it is a matter of politics. If Al Gore had been President after 9/11 and used enhanced interrogation techniques and kept the Nation safe from further attack for the rest of his term, the MSM and Democrats would be calling for him to be on Mount Rushmore not calling for his prosecution like they do with George Bush.

KW64 on August 29, 2009 at 7:57 PM

It’s rather horrifying that some on the left are willing to say Mary Jo Kopechne’s sacrifice was worth it to get the political career of Kennedy but to distress a murderer to save other lives is not worth it.

aikidoka on August 29, 2009 at 6:58 PM

BEST post today; thanks aikidoka

Khun Joe on August 29, 2009 at 7:58 PM

Isn’t this funny. The leftie limp wristers who oppose EIT and support the “pretty please, tell me” approach are the same kind who’d wet their pants if someone said “Boo!” when they were unlocking their hybrid at night. They project the same things that work with them onto others, and they cannot see the world past themselves. It’s simply troubling and morally reprehensible to have such weak sauce breeding here in this country.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:02 PM

Ironic that the Left would be so up-in-arms about the fake-drowning of terrorist, but able to pooh-pooh the real drowning of a 28 year old American Democrat.

How terrified was she? For how long?

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 6:38 PM

I vote this the post of the day.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:04 PM

Obama lost this argument several weeks ago. His arrogance and stupidity in persisting with this issue–simply using it to give the Obamacare epic fail a smoke screen–is now, once again, blowing up in his face even worse than it did the first go round when Cheney biaatch slapped him that one Thursday when they played dueling speeches.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:06 PM

I say take the gloves off. Give me five minutes and assorted toys and I will get anything out of these pieces of excrement. And I won’t leave much behind to 8itch about his treatment.

This is war people, against an enemy that will not follow the rules, that means all bets are off and you can do whatever you want to with them.

If you don’t, then so called civilized nations that are signatories to the Geneva Conventions have no reason to live up to those standards.

conservnut on August 29, 2009 at 8:11 PM

Anything to justify torture here on HA right? Wonder how you all will feel if other people started doing this to our captured soldiers.
The “we dont torture card” was taken off the table during the Bush/Cheney incompetent years. Its going to take a while for the new administration to restored America back into the way our founding fathers intended.

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Mrs,KSM is working with the ACLU.

sonnyspats1 on August 29, 2009 at 8:18 PM

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:13 PM

It was democrats who proclaimed that waterboarding was torture and thus Americans tortured. The official position was that waterboarding was not torture and we do not torture. So, if you want to go into who made the world think we torture, look in the mirror.

KW64 on August 29, 2009 at 8:18 PM

our captured soldiers and civilians already suffer torture. Do you recall the 4 civilians captured in Iraq in 2003, two of whom were former USN SEALs, who were skinned and hung from a bridge? Did you happen to be there when Army Rangers were digging up shallow graves of US soldiers who had their hands bound and clear evidence of torture at the same hospital where Jessica Lynch was kept? Did you happen to see Daniel Pearl et al. get beheaded on TV? That was torture. EIT has a purpose–the obtaining of information. Both hurt, both can be misused, but scuffing up KSM to save the life of you and your family may have been worth it to you–you’re simply too juvenile to realize it.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:21 PM

Ironic that the Left would be so up-in-arms about the fake-drowning of terrorist, but able to pooh-pooh the real drowning of a 28 year old American Democrat.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:22 PM

Its going to take a while for the new administration to restored America back into the way our founding fathers intended.

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Your founding fathers? When did libs ever care about the founding fathers? Try something else because that won’t fly around here.

Cody1991 on August 29, 2009 at 8:22 PM

Wonder how you all will feel if other people started doing this to our captured soldiers.

Compared to what they already do it’d be an huge improvement.

Anyway, if our soldiers were to wear civilian clothes, attack and murder civilians, cut off their heads and hide among innocents, frankly I wouldn’t care too much what happened to them.

They’d be acting despicably and shamefully and violating all norms of warfare and would deserve no protection for their vile acts.

So, how’d that analogy you gave us turn out?

SteveMG on August 29, 2009 at 8:26 PM

ur captured soldiers and civilians already suffer torture. Do you recall the 4 civilians captured in Iraq in 2003, two of whom were former USN SEALs, who were skinned and hung from a bridge? Did you happen to be there when Army Rangers were digging up shallow graves of US soldiers who had their hands bound and clear evidence of torture at the same hospital where Jessica Lynch was kept?

So because they do it, we should follow suit correct? God forbid they capture an American family and kill that family including children, we should kill their little children too correct?
Anything to justify the cause right? Are you even an American? Cause if you were, you would know that our constitution prohibits torture under any circumstance. You need to grow up sonny boy, you are way out of your league on this one.

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:27 PM

Wonder how you all will feel if other people started doing this to our captured soldiers.

They cut the heads off of our boys, drag them behind vehicles or hang them from bridges. They don’t capture our kids, they brutalize and then murder them. Go lick your @$$ like the curr dog that you are.

thomasaur on August 29, 2009 at 8:27 PM

epic afrolib fail.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:28 PM

Anything to justify torture here on HA right? Wonder how you all will feel if other people started doing this to our captured soldiers.
The “we dont torture card” was taken off the table during the Bush/Cheney incompetent years. Its going to take a while for the new administration to restored America back into the way our founding fathers intended.

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:13 PM

You whining excuse of a human being. “… If other people started doing this to our captured soldiers?”

These vermin you call people torture and cut off the limbs and heads of our guys, and are kind enough to record it all on video for worthless trolls like you.

Go crawl back in your hole and be glad these jihadists never found you talking human rights.

TXUS on August 29, 2009 at 8:29 PM

typical lib mentality. Try to tweak morals, when they possess none. Try to invoke values, when they are valueless. Try to demonstrate compassion, when they can’t see the cruelty they emit. What a misguided group of miscreants.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:29 PM

Ironic that the Left would be so up-in-arms about the fake-drowning of terrorist, but able to pooh-pooh the real drowning of a 28 year old American Democrat.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:22 PM

Don’t embarrass them. Mary Jo was a woman, and the Puma gals can tell you that the Dems are all about women’s rights. Right?

On the other hand, we could argue that Teddy acted like any normal, ME macho man. I mean, WTF? Just leave her to die and then lie.

That had to be worth his career in the Senate, right?

Cody1991 on August 29, 2009 at 8:31 PM

Its going to take a while for the new administration to restored America back into the way our founding fathers intended.

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Dunno if you’ve peeked lately, but that doesn’t seem to be the direction we are going.

a capella on August 29, 2009 at 8:32 PM

Oh, great!
Another Afro lib.
Now there’s a news flash.

Lanceman on August 29, 2009 at 8:33 PM

So because they do it, we should follow suit correct? God forbid they capture an American family and kill that family including children, we should kill their little children too correct?
Anything to justify the cause right? Are you even an American? Cause if you were, you would know that our constitution prohibits torture under any circumstance. You need to grow up sonny boy, you are way out of your league on this one.

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:27 PM

I reject your premise. You wrongly presumed that our soldiers weren’t suffering torture, which they do, at the hands of people that’d gladly harm you. You’re so far off base there jack. Nice try to start a fight, though–you’re out of your league.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:33 PM

Obama’s goin’ down–you voted for him. He’s a poor leader, amoral, unconstitutional and a do nothing light worker. It’s too bad you can’t sell his buttons any more or hawk his posters and pour the koolaid, but there’s always hopenchange…go git ya some

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:35 PM

So because they do it, we should follow suit correct?

Well, we got him to admit that what they do is worse.

It’s a start.

I think explaining to him the difference between the motivations of our acts and the motivation behind their acts will be much more difficult.

Not to mention that our people are soldiers who follow the laws of warfare (uniforms, et cetera) while the terrorists are not equivalent soldiers and violate all norms of warfare.

But to him, we have soldiers and they have soldiers and both are the same.

SteveMG on August 29, 2009 at 8:36 PM

Oh, great!
Another Afro lib.
Now there’s a news flash.

Lanceman on August 29, 2009 at 8:33 PM

Really. Afro Lib. How 60′s and passe can one be? Oh, right… like this administration.

Retreads ad nausuem.

Cody1991 on August 29, 2009 at 8:39 PM

steve: explaining the difference? Are you presuming we can change a mind? The fundamental concept there would be that we’re dealing with rational people–which we’re not. They’re led by their feelings and have a rank aversion to reason, logic and empiricism. How do you suggest we appeal to their feelings…maybe a catchy slogan like “Hope” and switch it to “Nope”…. These guys are swayed like the wind.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:39 PM

speaking of torture, i’m heading out to watch UFC 102 tonight. Too bad afrolibs not on the fight card so he could get a little dose of EIT.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:41 PM

Anything to justify torture here on HA right? Wonder how you all will feel if other people started doing this to our captured soldiers.
The “we dont torture card” was taken off the table during the Bush/Cheney incompetent years. Its going to take a while for the new administration to restored America back into the way our founding fathers intended.

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Newsflash Dip$hit,

They already do torture, and skin and behead and a lot of other atrocities that I don’t care to think about.

These people are scum, animals that don’t deserve to live let alone be treated as human beings.

conservnut on August 29, 2009 at 8:41 PM

It’s too bad you can’t sell his buttons any more or hawk his posters and pour the koolaid, but there’s always hopenchange…go git ya some

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:35 PM

There’s always a market in Chicago South Side ghettos, Detroit and LA. A little change for the homies. By that time Barry and Big MO will be long gone – Suckahs!

Such tools, these libs.

Cody1991 on August 29, 2009 at 8:41 PM

Obama’s goin’ down–you voted for him. He’s a poor leader, amoral, unconstitutional and a do nothing light worker. It’s too bad you can’t sell his buttons any more or hawk his posters and pour the koolaid, but there’s always hopenchange…go git ya some

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:35 PM

You wanna bet he is reelected in 2012 if he grows a spine and passes HRC with a strong public option? %1000. We can have Allah hold the money and pay the winner in 2012. Come on man, put your money where your mouth is. Obama passes the HRC with a strong public option and he is reelected.

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:43 PM

Meant to type $1000.

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:44 PM

Afrolib: EIT has got a catchy ring, maybe you can rap to it.

You down wid EIT
yeah you know me
wassup wassup

what, you ain’t got no rap skillz? among other things either right, champ? Bet you can golf and throw balls as well as the top mom jean model we gots ’round heah.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:44 PM

Any fair-minded supporter of enhanced interrogation would concede that it’s morally problematic, that the info extracted may be unreliable, that it’s susceptible to abuse

How reasonable you torture-advocates sound. Chilling.

Grow Fins on August 29, 2009 at 8:45 PM

got grease on yo’ fingaz?

your boy is going down in 2012 jack.

I’ll give him one thing–he has really proven himself at both finding and fighting his way into any wet paper bag laying around, then equally adept at being unable to fight his way out. I’ll give him that.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:46 PM

pwned

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:47 PM

let me guess the grand is in the mail in the form of your stimulus check. ?

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:48 PM

steve: explaining the difference? Are you presuming we can change a mind?

The triumph of hope over experience.

As AP noted above, we (on our side) understand the moral complexity of this, the problematic nature of what we are doing.

No one likes to do this.

But given the nature of the enemy we face, the situation that they present to us, we struggle to come up with a response that as problematic as it is morally is the best one that we can devise given the greater moral harm that will result if we don’t make the decision.

We decide and act. Our opponents want to ignore the very question and think they can be morally pure by doing so.

SteveMG on August 29, 2009 at 8:49 PM

Any fair-minded supporter of enhanced interrogation would concede that it’s morally problematic, that the info extracted may be unreliable, that it’s susceptible to abuse

What bullcrap.

Itchee Dryback on August 29, 2009 at 8:52 PM

Afrolib: EIT has got a catchy ring, maybe you can rap to it.

You down wid EIT
yeah you know me
wassup wassup

what, you ain’t got no rap skillz? among other things either right, champ? Bet you can golf and throw balls as well as the top mom jean model we gots ’round heah.

ted c on August 29, 2009 at 8:44 PM

My mistake, i was under the impression you were just an ideologue with a contrasting view from mines. Didn’t know you were a racist as well.
I withdraw my bet. Bet still stands with anyone except from this racist idiot.

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:53 PM

It’ll be interesting to see Cheney’s whole interview tomorrow. Enhanced interrogations do work. Good intel came. I recall Dick Morris say that a plot was foiled on an attack at the Brooklyn Bridge and in Los Angeles. Obviously something worked.
The liberals’ obsession with moral equivalency and their insane idea of treating the enemy with as much respect as their neighbor is beyond the pale.

cubachi on August 29, 2009 at 8:56 PM

The extremely important KSM post: 74 comments. The dopey TK funeral post: 433 comments. Blogosphere fever — catch it!20 minutes ago from twhirl

Help me out here, why is this post so important? Because it came from WaPo?

Isn’t this a confirmation of what we already know? Not snark, I’m just missing the impact.

TK, on the other hand, is current event used to (attempt to) garner support for a crap legacy bill. Unless think the bill is dead regardless, isn’t that a bit of important too?

Spirit of 1776 on August 29, 2009 at 8:57 PM

It confirms Cheney was right. Which is a given :)

Spirit of 1776 on August 29, 2009 at 8:59 PM

Grow Fins on August 29, 2009 at 8:45 PM

The controlling legal authority at the time said waterboarding was not torture because it did not cause permanent injury or cause great pain. It is your side of the political debate that handed this issue to the enemy by insisting on making techniques pulic and characterizing them in the worst possible fashion. What is more, because of the demagogueing on this issue, the enemy now knows what we can and cannot do (no waterboarding no matter how effective). This may well help them keep their secrets and kill more people no matter how you define EITs.

KW64 on August 29, 2009 at 9:02 PM

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Well, by current liberal standards I couldn’t bet with you either. Because if I think your messiah is ruining this country and a socialist, by definition (yours) I am a racist too.

conservnut on August 29, 2009 at 9:04 PM

Damn, this one is simple. You are either willing to do what ever it takes to protect this country, or you are not willing to fight for freedom. I, for one, do not particularly care what they do to a person like KSM to get information that may save lives. If you think you can fight a war with these people with compassion, you have no idea how to fight a war. If you think we should not use harsh techniques to extract life saving information from those who would maim and murder without regard, may you be among the dead the next time they strike.

Zelsdorf Ragshaft on August 29, 2009 at 9:04 PM

Afrolib on August 29, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Malik Shabazz? Is that you?

Lanceman on August 29, 2009 at 9:06 PM

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