It’s come to this: Dems task Teddy’s grandson with leading funeral prayer for ObamaCare

posted at 2:09 pm on August 29, 2009 by Allahpundit

The boss has been writing about the left’s use of kids as sympathetic “human shields” for their policies for years and years, but even so, I’m amazed. I thought the moral authority of the religious setting would create enough cover for Obama or whoever to toss a few bones to health care in their eulogies; I guess, like Karl says, they were skittish after the Wellstone memorial fiasco and figured they couldn’t take any chances. Enter this poor little boy, charged with politicizing a prayer because the gutless pols around him didn’t have the balls to do it themselves.

Incidentally, after linking this on Twitter, I’ve been informed by liberal amateur theologians that it’s perfectly kosher to pray for universal health care — on TV, in the middle of a national debate, at a funeral service ostensibly devoted to grieving over someone, by exploiting an innocent child — because, um, Jesus would have supported it. I’m happy to discover that the left’s decades of righteous outrage at Christian conservatives for mixing religion with politics was, as so much else is, simple partisan posturing, but I’m unfamiliar with the sermon where Jesus called for Caesar to create a public fund to heal the sick. Can any Bible aficionados help? Exit question: Anyone have any young’uns at home they’d be willing to volunteer to lead prayers at the next big GOP funeral? We might as well make use of the camera time while we have it. “Dear god, please grant us the strength to privatize social security and construct a robust missile defense shield. We pray to the Lord.” Click the image to watch.


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How does it relate to the subject of this blog entry?

Ampersand on August 29, 2009 at 4:41 PM

rokemronnie’s posts are interesting within the context of understanding God’s nature and whether invoking Him in the aid of public policy makes sense either theologically or politically.

dedalus on August 29, 2009 at 4:48 PM

Laura got MEDICATED.
simplesimon on August 29, 2009 at 4:44 PM

Maybe you should be medicated…oh darn…
I do think you’re high on something illegal…
guess who/what I’m thinking off right now.

spacewife on August 29, 2009 at 4:49 PM

Numbers 23:19 – God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 3:56 PM

OK, so I am actually excited to have a legitimate Biblical scholar posting here. My question to you is what do you believe the Messiah will be? The entire concept of Messiah is from the Jewish texts. Without the old testament, there would be no concept of a need of Jesus (the Messiah).

Christians believe Jesus is the One promised. What do you believe the One promised in the Bible will look like?

Since it isn’t about Kennedy exploitation anymore. And for the record, most Christian services don’t condemn the Jews for killing God.

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 4:50 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:19 PM

When I suggested you were being inflammatory, I was refering to this part of your post:

The Roman’s killed your false messiah who was most likely the bastard son of a Roman soldier. He died failing to bring about the kingdom of God.
rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 2:51 PM.

This is quite inflammatory, even for you.

massrighty on August 29, 2009 at 4:50 PM

What does that have to do with Ted Kennedy’s grandkids getting used as political props?

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 4:20 PM

Take it up with the poster who felt the need to disparage and denigrate great rabbis and accuse Jews of deicide. You didn’t complain when that original off topic comment was posted.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:50 PM

How dare people talk about what someone called the cause of their life at that person’s funeral!

crr6 on August 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM

What sick soul would claim something the cause of their life’s work that they in practice wanted no part of? Would it resemble the soul of a creature who utilized humor at the expense of the innocent’s death one caused?

No…

How dare people capable of rational thought assault their own ability to reason by falling for such.

anuts on August 29, 2009 at 4:52 PM

They’re strictly for entertainment – not to be taken seriously.

simplesimon on August 29, 2009 at 4:31 PM

Nor are you.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:52 PM

They’re strictly for entertainment – not to be taken seriously.
simplesimon on August 29, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Nor are you.
rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Troll Fight!

kingsjester on August 29, 2009 at 4:53 PM

Where in the Biblical text is that?

Yes, there are accounts in the Talmud that say he was executed, but then you don’t accept the Talmud as authoritative.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:47 PM

I don’t have a position on the Talmud. Also, the Bible doesn’t specifically say that Isaiah was the one sawed in two – it is a construction that utilizes this verse:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%2011:37-11:37&version=NIV

37They were stoned[a]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated—

The larger point is that you are walking on very thin ice with your assertion that Israel did not mistreat or ignore, at least intermittently, most of the prophets.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 4:56 PM

massrighty on August 29, 2009 at 4:50 PM

Yup, that was pretty out there.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 4:57 PM

Just because He can do something doesn’t he must do it. For someone so smart about all things related to God you fail to grasp His power.

thomasaur on August 29, 2009 at 4:43 PM

So you’re saying that God has the power to destroy Himself? How does an eternal being destroy themself? Doesn’t that, I dunno, kinda contradict the meaning of “eternal”?

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:57 PM

This is quite inflammatory, even for you.

massrighty on August 29, 2009 at 4:50 PM

You seem to conveniently miss out on the fact he responded to a quite inflammatory (and loony) statement on it’s own. About Pharisees killing gods and stuff.

Aristotle on August 29, 2009 at 4:58 PM

Calling something ‘impossible’ is a human concept, nothing to which God is held.

thomasaur on August 29, 2009 at 4:24 PM

I could equally say:

Calling something ‘God’ is a human concept, nothing to which God is held.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:59 PM

Aristotle on August 29, 2009 at 4:58 PM

I didn’t really miss it;

I’m not arguing that his was the only inflammatory statement on this thread.

Actually, if you go back to my original post, I was kind of joshing him for his habit of bringing police misconduct into play, which he does frequently.

I’m standing by my opinion on this.

massrighty on August 29, 2009 at 5:01 PM

I could equally say:

Calling something ‘God’ is a human concept, nothing to which God is held.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:59 PM

You can say any thing you wish. I’ll leave you with the possibility that were it not for Christians the Remnant of Israel could very well have been eliminated. Shalom

thomasaur on August 29, 2009 at 5:03 PM

Yeah, that was a big turn-off – the grandson calling for healthcare coverage to be a right.

Shameless.

Oink on August 29, 2009 at 5:03 PM

Yes, there are accounts in the Talmud that say he was executed, but then you don’t accept the Talmud as authoritative.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:47 PM

Isn’t it true the Talmud was amalgamated since the Diaspora of A.D. 70? It’s contemporary to the New Testament.

Chris_Balsz on August 29, 2009 at 5:03 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:59 PM

OK, so as someone who has studied the Bible, what is the moral of the story? What do you believe is God’s plan? Come on, it’s the Sabbath, enlighten us.

I’m not trying to make fun. . . I would like to know what you think. Jesus was supposed to be the redeemer from man’s original sin against God. The sacrifice so that mankind could rekindle the covenant that God initially established with mankind.

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 5:03 PM

please don’t tell me you are like most ‘scholars’ who know what it says but don’t believe it.

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 5:06 PM

I’m not even watching it and I knew what was going to happen………

……. Football practice with little 7% this morning and now it’s off to the beach.

Bye the way……….

……….. why are all the flags at half mast?

Seven Percent Solution on August 29, 2009 at 5:09 PM

OK, so I am actually excited to have a legitimate Biblical scholar posting here. My question to you is what do you believe the Messiah will be? The entire concept of Messiah is from the Jewish texts. Without the old testament, there would be no concept of a need of Jesus (the Messiah).

No scholar, by a long shot. I didn’t know Jack Kennedy, but I know some Torah scholars and I’m no scholar.

If you want some info on the Jewish perspective of who the Messiah will be, and how to determine if he is indeed God’s anointed messenger, I’d recommend the section of Maimonides’ Mishnah Torah that deals with the laws of Jewish kings, wherein Rambam discusses the Messiah. It’s available in translation here.

Since you mentioned that the entire concept of the Messiah is a Jewish one, wouldn’t it make Occam’s razor like sense that the Jews should be the ones most qualified to determine who is and who isn’t the Messiah?

Christians believe Jesus is the One promised. What do you believe the One promised in the Bible will look like?

Not anything like that blonde “cocker spaniel” picture of Jesus. Since King David was a redhead, perhaps his great great … grandson will be a “gingy” too.

Since it isn’t about Kennedy exploitation anymore. And for the record, most Christian services don’t condemn the Jews for killing God.

I’m well aware of that. That’s why I was so surprised to see the charge of deicide posted in a comment here. That the charge went unchallenged by any posters except myself shows that it has some currency with HotAir readers, which is troubling.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM

I’m not even watching it and I knew what was going to happen………

……. Football practice with little 7% this morning and now it’s off to the beach.

Bye the way……….

……….. why are all the flags at half mast?

Seven Percent Solution on August 29, 2009 at 5:09 PM

Trotting the tearful child went over so well at Jacko’s funeral, it must have polled well enough to trot out the Kennedy tot.

thomasaur on August 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM

It’s really ok, they were also praying for teddy’s soul to go to heaven, and they wont get that either………..

what a blatant exploitation of childhood, lets find out what POS wrote that.

UNREPENTANT CONSERVATIVE CAPITOLIST on August 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM

messed up the strong feature, should have been the first sentence

thomasaur on August 29, 2009 at 5:17 PM

Since it isn’t about Kennedy exploitation anymore. And for the record, most Christian services don’t condemn the Jews for killing God.

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 4:50 PM

Yep.

No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.

John 10:18

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 5:17 PM

Laura got MEDICATED.
simplesimon on August 29, 2009 at 4:44 PM

Stay classy!

NathanG on August 29, 2009 at 5:17 PM

This is quite inflammatory, even for you.

massrighty on August 29, 2009 at 4:50 PM

So saying that Jesus was a false messiah of uncertain parentage is more inflammatory than saying that the Jews killed God? Considering how many Jews have been murdered after Christians were inflamed by the charge of deicide, that’s a pretty bold statement to make.

While I’m quite certain there have been Jews killed for daring to question the messiahship of Jesus, I don’t think any Jews were provoked to murderous rage upon hearing that claim.

The same cannot be said for Christians and the charge of deicide.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:19 PM

Comparing Michael Jackson’s precious child wanting to speak and telling the world how she loved her father to Kennedy’s grandchild speaking of something he can’t possibly have a concept of….is Absurd!

bridgetown on August 29, 2009 at 5:19 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM

Thanks. And just because the pictures of Jesus are not historically accurate does not make the message or the significance of Jesus any less so.

And since Jesus and his disciples were Jews, and John the Baptist and Paul, the Jews did declare Jesus as the Messiah. . . then they became Christians.

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 5:20 PM

Bye the way……….

……….. why are all the flags at half mast?

Seven Percent Solution on August 29, 2009 at 5:09 PM

By(e) you? It’s because Dale Earnhardt is still dead.

simplesimon on August 29, 2009 at 5:21 PM

I can’t believe this is turning into a fight between the Jewish faith and the Christian faith.

Teddy Kennedy would be proud.

bridgetown on August 29, 2009 at 5:22 PM

Laura got MEDICATED.
simplesimon on August 29, 2009 at 4:44 PM

Calling Dale Earnhardt, Jr….Calling Dale Earnhardt, Jr.

NathanG on August 29, 2009 at 5:23 PM

You can say any thing you wish. I’ll leave you with the possibility that were it not for Christians the Remnant of Israel could very well have been eliminated. Shalom

thomasaur on August 29, 2009 at 5:03 PM

Considering the number of Jews that have been eliminated by Christians over the centuries (as bad as being a dhimmi in the Muslim world was, for the most part, unlike the European Christians, the Muslims didn’t kill Jews with the same frequency), and considering how church leaders have tried to suppress Judaism, that’s a pretty ironic remark to make.

Actually, I’ll put my faith in God’s promise that the Jewish people are eternally in His favor. He made some promises that He’s kept.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:24 PM

Considering how many Jews have been murdered after Christians were inflamed by the charge of deicide, that’s a pretty bold statement to make.

While I’m quite certain there have been Jews killed for daring to question the messiahship of Jesus, I don’t think any Jews were provoked to murderous rage upon hearing that claim.

Then you don’t remember the New Testament. Acts claims to be a first-hand account of such stories.

The same cannot be said for Christians and the charge of deicide.
rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:19 PM

You say that over and over as if I’m supposed to react on some emotional level to it.

Chris_Balsz on August 29, 2009 at 5:24 PM

Comparing Michael Jackson’s precious child wanting to speak and telling the world how she loved her father to Kennedy’s grandchild speaking of something he can’t possibly have a concept of….is Absurd!

bridgetown on August 29, 2009 at 5:19 PM

I’m sure the Jackson child’s emotion was genuine, the Kennedy’s were trying to draw sympathy in the same way. I wasn’t denigrating Paris Jackson.

thomasaur on August 29, 2009 at 5:25 PM

Um…

My prayer of intercession.

For the United States – founded on the tenants of liberty, perseverance and personal responsibility – may we as a nation find our way back to being self sufficient…..

We pray to the Lord

ChalkPerson on August 29, 2009 at 5:25 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:24 PM

God also promised punishment on his chosen people.
And he has kept that promise. Oh boy has he kept it.

Stop bashing Christians, please.

bridgetown on August 29, 2009 at 5:27 PM

Yep……a Kennedy never falls far from the tree.

lilium on August 29, 2009 at 5:29 PM

thomasaur on August 29, 2009 at 5:25 PM

I don’t believe the Jackson’s had to draw sympathy. MJ is loved deeply all over this planet.
If you notice in the video, it looks like she asks Janet if she can speak…I believe it to be genuine and not something the Jackson’s really wanted Paris to do.

The Kennedy’s are shameful. Absolutely shameful in what they did. That child could have asked to pray for the health of all people or something, NOT what he said. Oh, it’s so sad to watch.

bridgetown on August 29, 2009 at 5:30 PM

I’m well aware of that. That’s why I was so surprised to see the charge of deicide posted in a comment here. That the charge went unchallenged by any posters except myself shows that it has some currency with HotAir readers, which is troubling.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM

IMO your conclusion is far fetched. Most people here don’t even know what/who the Pharisees are, and the detachment of the original comment from both sanity and context simply made people to walk over it.

And Jews don’t really care about verbal accusations about killing gods. In fact, it sounds pretty cool to be labeled as god killers. As long as there are no pogroms and inquisitions – i’d be happy to take the blame on myself.

Aristotle on August 29, 2009 at 5:32 PM

The larger point is that you are walking on very thin ice with your assertion that Israel did not mistreat or ignore, at least intermittently, most of the prophets.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 4:56 PM

My assertion was that the Christian claim that Jews “oppressed and killed the prophets” was not true in any categorical sense. While the people may not have paid them due attention, whatever oppression and killing of prophets there was was by the kings and queens, not the people. While the masses may have ignored their rebukes, the masses also seem to have had some affection and loyalty to the prophets. They certainly followed Elijah in his conflict with an idolatrous royal family.

More to the point, identifying the Pharisees, i.e. the rabbis, who lived centuries after the end of the age of prophecy, with both deicide and rejection of the prophets is intended to associate traditional Judaism with a rejection of God as Christians see Him. Considering the reverence with which the Pharisees held the biblical prophets and their words, this disparagement of the rabbis would be silly had it not been historically used to provoke the murder of Jews.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:33 PM

al-Qaeda uses children as suiside bombers, why not the dims.

la.rt.wngr on August 29, 2009 at 5:36 PM

They certainly followed Elijah in his conflict with an idolatrous royal family.

I would have followed Elijah too if I saw him call down fire from heaven that burned up wood, water, and stones.

You are of course correct that much of the oppression was done at the top, but there is a certain degree of public complicity and cowardice in such events.

More to the point, identifying the Pharisees, i.e. the rabbis, who lived centuries after the end of the age of prophecy, with both deicide and rejection of the prophets is intended to associate traditional Judaism with a rejection of God as Christians see Him. Considering the reverence with which the Pharisees held the biblical prophets and their words, this disparagement of the rabbis would be silly had it not been historically used to provoke the murder of Jews.

Are you talking about today’s rabbis? If so, I agree. Unfortunately, the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus’ time kind of did kill him and proclaim “let his blood be on us and our children!”

Yes, they were very reverential in their treatment of the prophets who had long since passed…but they still killed Jesus.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 5:41 PM

Isn’t it true the Talmud was amalgamated since the Diaspora of A.D. 70? It’s contemporary to the New Testament.

Chris_Balsz on August 29, 2009 at 5:03 PM

The Talmud includes the debates of the rabbis over a period of about 700 or 800 years, including the period when the church fathers were compiling the gospels. The material in the Talmud both predates and postdates the early Christian era, so saying that it’s contemporary with the NT would be like saying that the Roman Empire was contemporary with the NT. It’s true but not exactly accurate.

Talmudic/Mishnaic sources mention a number of individuals identified as “Yeshu”, not all of them contemporaneous with the Jesus of the New Testament. Jesus was not the first, nor last, false Messiah. My theory is that the Jesus of the New Testament is a composite character and includes elements of more than one “Yeshu”. Hell, the NT even cribbed a story about R. Yose HaGalili, only in the original, the rabbi blesses the fig tree and it gives fruit out of season, unlike Jesus who, piqued that the tree wasn’t in season, cursed it.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:41 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:19 PM

I made one slightly sarcastic comment….

massrighty on August 29, 2009 at 5:43 PM

And since Jesus and his disciples were Jews, and John the Baptist and Paul, the Jews did declare Jesus as the Messiah. . . then they became Christians.

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 5:20 PM

Not, “the Jews”, some Jews. Some Jews became communists too. The Jews who adhered to God’s teachings in the Torah became neither Christians nor communists.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:44 PM

God can’t take human form any more than He can destroy Himself. Becoming subject to physical reality is contrary to God’s divinity. He can no more become a human or take human form than He can create another God just like Himself.

No, God cannot create a stone that’s too heavy for Him to lift. God cannot do what’s impossible. God cannot divide by zero. God cannot do what is contrary to His divinity.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 3:47 PM

I hope your god is very happy living in the box in which you’ve placed him.

Jeremiah wasn’t oppressed? Ezekiel? Even Moses had to keep authority through God’s direct intervention and Christian tradition, along with Jewish, says that Isaiah was killed for preaching. BTW Jezebel didn’t just go after Isaiah, she had had so many prophets killed that Isaiah was convinced he was the last one.

And in between prophets? Israel went back to worshiping foreign gods and forgetting their God. Same thing with the judges.

But perhaps Nehemiah said it better than I could:

But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they put your law behind their backs. They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies. So you handed them over to their enemies, who oppressed them. But when they were oppressed they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them, and in your great compassion you gave them deliverers, who rescued them from the hand of their enemies.

But as soon as they were at rest, they again did what was evil in your sight. Then you abandoned them to the hand of their enemies so that they ruled over them. And when they cried out to you again, you heard from heaven, and in your compassion you delivered them time after time.

You warned them to return to your law, but they became arrogant and disobeyed your commands. They sinned against your ordinances, by which a man will live if he obeys them. Stubbornly they turned their backs on you, became stiff-necked and refused to listen. For many years you were patient with them. By your Spirit you admonished them through your prophets. Yet they paid no attention, so you handed them over to the neighboring peoples. But in your great mercy you did not put an end to them or abandon them, for you are a gracious and merciful God.

Nehemiah 9:26-31

Or have you convinced yourself that the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities were the result of what Jezebel did alone?

So my question stands (still, not trying to be a jerk, just really, really curious). With this history of the Jews, whenever not directed by a prophet or judge, repeatedly rejecting what God really wanted for them, how can you be so sure that Judaism has had it right for the past couple of millennia (sans prophet)?

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 5:45 PM

God also promised punishment on his chosen people.
And he has kept that promise. Oh boy has he kept it.

When God rebukes His chosen people, that gives testimony to His existence. He rebukes us, though, for straying from His word, not Christian distortions of that word.

Stop bashing Christians, please.

bridgetown on August 29, 2009 at 5:27 PM

Stop calling us Christ killers, please.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:48 PM

. As long as there are no pogroms and inquisitions – i’d be happy to take the blame on myself.

Aristotle on August 29, 2009 at 5:32 PM

Technically the Inquisition only had jurisdiction over Christians, so those Jews who remained true to their faith had some immunity from it. The reality, though was different, and the Inquisition undoubtedly led to the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492.

There’s an old Lenny Bruce routine where he finds a note from his “Cousin Morty” that read “Yeah, we did it. And we’ll do it again”.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:51 PM

Oh, and I’m not saying that Christians have done much better over the last couple of thousand years. We have also managed to kill those whom God sent and wildly misinterpret His word from time to time.

But we don’t deny that history. In fact, a constant consciousness of our own failings has helped the Christian Church (like it or not) along with Western Civilization, become what it is today.

Not bad for the followers of the “bastard son of a Roman soldier.” Eh?

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 5:52 PM

Yes, they were very reverential in their treatment of the prophets who had long since passed…but they still killed Jesus.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 5:41 PM

That’s because he was no prophet.

Aristotle on August 29, 2009 at 5:53 PM

Stop calling us Christ killers, please.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:48 PM

Did some Christian here call you a “Christ killer?” If so, I apologize on behalf of Christians everywhere. But, as has been pointed out here previously (by me, among others), you must know that statements like this are not part of any serious modern Christian doctrine.

Don’t you realize, in fact, that the Modern, Western Christian Church is the best friend that Jews have ever had?

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 5:56 PM

Yes, they were very reverential in their treatment of the prophets who had long since passed…but they still killed Jesus.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 5:41 PM

Saying this not only contradicts Scripture, but the words of Christ Himself. What utter foolishness you dishonor Jesus and His sacrifice with your statement.

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 5:58 PM

Are you talking about today’s rabbis? If so, I agree. Unfortunately, the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus’ time kind of did kill him and proclaim “let his blood be on us and our children!”

Yes, they were very reverential in their treatment of the prophets who had long since passed…but they still killed Jesus.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 5:41 PM

Only if you’re willing to believe that the Sanhedrin held night court sessions. According to the NT, a not impartial source, the Sanhedrin held proceedings to try Jesus at night. According to Jewish sources, the Sanhedrin only met during the day.

Also, crucifixion, truly horrible way to die, was not a Jewish method of capital punishment.

But, hey, if you’re comfortable repeating a canard that has led to the murder of countless thousands of Jews, go right ahead.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:58 PM

Hey, do we get to talk about the Kennedys using that kid as a prop? Probably not, right?

Jim Treacher on August 29, 2009 at 5:59 PM

So what else is new? *yaaaaawn*

Dr. ZhivBlago on August 29, 2009 at 6:00 PM

Technically the Inquisition only had jurisdiction over Christians, so those Jews who remained true to their faith had some immunity from it. The reality, though was different, and the Inquisition undoubtedly led to the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492.

There’s an old Lenny Bruce routine where he finds a note from his “Cousin Morty” that read “Yeah, we did it. And we’ll do it again”.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:51 PM

Technically true – if you don’t count Troyes blood libel.

Aristotle on August 29, 2009 at 6:01 PM

Jim Treacher on August 29, 2009 at 5:59 PM

Doesn’t look like it, Jim. Ronnie has made it his personal thread for his anti-Christian beliefs. Just like he monopolized the Gates Threads to rail against Police. Isn’t that called Trolling?

kingsjester on August 29, 2009 at 6:02 PM

Not, “the Jews”, some Jews. Some Jews became communists too. The Jews who adhered to God’s teachings in the Torah became neither Christians nor communists.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:44 PM

But doesn’t that speak to your larger point that ‘the Jews’ were not responsible for ‘killing God’? I mean the entire premise that ‘the Jews’ killed Jesus is based on the verse that said the Jews conspired against Jesus.

‘the Jews’ didn’t conspire (since Jesus was a Jew) SOME Jews conspired.

The point about who said Jesus is Messiah is that it wasn’t Gentiles saying Jesus is the Jewish Messiah (as you seem to imply when you say ‘the Jews’ should determine who the Messiah is since it is a Jewish concept). It was Jews telling Gentiles that Jesus was the Messiah. He isn’t JUST the Jewish Messiah, He is ALL OF MANKIND’s Messiah.

That’s the point.

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 6:04 PM

….Pilate….

anuts on August 29, 2009 at 6:07 PM

I hope your god is very happy living in the box in which you’ve placed him.

It’s a box that He Himself constructed. Can God do what is contrary to His divinity?

But perhaps Nehemiah said it better than I could:

Ah, but Nechemiah was a Jewish prophet, speaking to Jews. That’s the critical difference. There’s a difference between my brother, who loves me, giving me constructive criticism, and some outsider who just wants to make me look bad and their own interpretation of events look accurate.

Christianity had a motive to make Jews and traditional Judaism to look bad. Our continued insistence that Jews know biblical Judaism better than Christians sticks in the craw of many Christians. Our continued denial of Jesus’ putative messiahship is perhaps the strongest argument against it (particularly since Jews have passionately desired the Messiah’s arrival). So Jews and traditional Judaism must somehow be impeached.

So my question stands (still, not trying to be a jerk, just really, really curious). With this history of the Jews, whenever not directed by a prophet or judge, repeatedly rejecting what God really wanted for them, how can you be so sure that Judaism has had it right for the past couple of millennia (sans prophet)?

Because Jews have, for better or worse, accepted that the prophets were right and that our ancestors erred in ignoring their rebuke.

Essentially what you are saying is that how do today’s Jews know they are right to accept the teachings of the Hebrew prophets, when some of their ancestors rejected those same teachings.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:14 PM

Hey, do we get to talk about the Kennedys using that kid as a prop? Probably not, right?

Jim Treacher on August 29, 2009 at 5:59 PM

ROFL!!!

capejasmine on August 29, 2009 at 6:18 PM

Not bad for the followers of the “bastard son of a Roman soldier.” Eh?

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 5:52 PM

Hey, I’m with Maimonides on this one, that for the most part Christianity and Islam are net positives because they have taught the world about the God of Abraham. Sure, they got a lot of the details wrong, but have indeed spread belief in one, omnipotent, eternal God.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:18 PM

Our continued denial of Jesus’ putative messiahship is perhaps the strongest argument against it (particularly since Jews have passionately desired the Messiah’s arrival).

That is pretty arrogant. You don’t deny that there will be a Jewish Messiah as the scripts say, right? How are you going to know? WHICH Jew will declare the prophecy fulfilled. The New Testament was written entirely by Jews.

So your argument is, Jesus isn’t the Messiah because SOME Jews say He isn’t. When He comes back, who will have to declare ‘the Jews’ wrong?

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 6:18 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:50 PM

And yet none of what you or simple or any other thread-hijacking troll say changes the fact that Dead Ted was a drunken, murdering Marxist, nor does it change the fact that his ghoulish comrades prop up his bloated, whiskey-soaked corpse while exploiting his grandchildren in a vain attempt to push socialized medicine on Americans.

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 6:18 PM

Saying this not only contradicts Scripture, but the words of Christ Himself. What utter foolishness you dishonor Jesus and His sacrifice with your statement.

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 5:58 PM

???

I think you misunderstand. The priests of Jesus’ day repeatedly called themselves children of Abraham and followers of Moses’ teachings, as well as several other prominent Jewish figures.

Is there something wrong with saying that, to you?

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 6:22 PM

Enter this poor little boy, charged with politicizing a prayer because the gutless pols around him didn’t have the balls to do it themselves.

The tax evasion goes on,

the hypocrisy endures,

the exploitation still lives,

and the supply of mindless fawning sheeple shall never die.

MB4 on August 29, 2009 at 6:24 PM

you must know that statements like this are not part of any serious modern Christian doctrine.

Yes, that’s why I was surprised to see it here.

Don’t you realize, in fact, that the Modern, Western Christian Church is the best friend that Jews have ever had?

Not sure what you mean my the modern, western church. Certainly the mainstream protestant denominations, with their leftist political bearing, are no fans of Israel or of traditional Judaism. Concerning the RCC, since Vatican II, the Church has been more solicitous of Jewish sensitivities, but there are still some paleo-Catholics like Pat Buchanan who zealously search out Jewish perfidy.

American Evangelicals are good friends of Israel and the Jews, that’s true, but I attribute that in part to American exceptionalism. The United States is a tolerant culture (“To bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance”) and our founding fathers admired the biblical Hebrews.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:24 PM

I guess this is now OT, but does anyone have a link to the video of MO sleeping during the funeral service? It appears that Youtube has taken it down….

LASue on August 29, 2009 at 6:24 PM

Only if you’re willing to believe that the Sanhedrin held night court sessions. According to the NT, a not impartial source, the Sanhedrin held proceedings to try Jesus at night. According to Jewish sources, the Sanhedrin only met during the day.

Also, crucifixion, truly horrible way to die, was not a Jewish method of capital punishment.

But, hey, if you’re comfortable repeating a canard that has led to the murder of countless thousands of Jews, go right ahead.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 5:58 PM

Hey, if the priestly hierarchy of the day actually followed the conventional law and tradition, they wouldn’t be killing an innocent man in the first place. The fact that they held night court sessions and chose a contemptible method of punishment wouldn’t exactly be out of the norm for them in that context.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 6:25 PM

Isn’t one of the arguments that ‘the Jews’ make against Jesus’ messiahship that Jesus WAS JEWISH?! Isn’t it true that most Jews don’t believe that the Messiah will be a Jew? Humor me here because I don’t have actual references.

But I have heard that ‘the Jews’ believe that the Messiah will be a warrior that will overthrow the government and establish His kingdom on Earth. ‘the Jews’ don’t believe Jesus is that because he didn’t ‘overthrow the government’.

On that note, I’d like to say that overcoming the death penalty handed down by the government is a pretty convincing victory over mankind’s government. Also, I’d like to add that while I have my issues with the doctrine of the Catholic Church, the fact that it is headquartered in ROME (you know, the place where the people who killed him resided) is a pretty strong argument in favor of a Messiah who will overthrow the earthly government and rule in its stead.

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 6:25 PM

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 6:25 PM

I think that’s Kabbalah or something dude.

Anyway, Ted Kennedy and his kin are disgusting mutants.

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 6:31 PM

The boss has been writing about the left’s use of kids as sympathetic “human shields”

Enter this poor little boy, charged with politicizing a prayer because the gutless pols around him didn’t have the balls to do it themselves.

by exploiting an innocent child — because, um, Jesus would have supported it.

Whatever you have done to little children you have done to me!
- Jesus Christ

MB4 on August 29, 2009 at 6:31 PM

29Victor on August 29, 2009 at 5:58 PM

Okay, I think I finally understand…you’re saying that Caiaphas et. al. only paid lip service to the teachings of Abraham, Moses, and by association God, which they contradicted in spirit through legalism and in practice.

If that’s what you mean, no need to get steamed up.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 6:32 PM

The Secular Humanist Propaganda manifesto page 1:

“Use the innocence of children in any setting that will further our agenda.”

AlreadyKnownAs on August 29, 2009 at 6:32 PM

MB4 on August 29, 2009 at 6:31 PM

Swish! 3-Points.

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 6:32 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 4:50 PM

And yet none of what you or simple or any other thread-hijacking troll say changes the fact that Dead Ted was a drunken, murdering Marxist, nor does it change the fact that his ghoulish comrades prop up his bloated, whiskey-soaked corpse while exploiting his grandchildren in a vain attempt to push socialized medicine on Americans.

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 6:18 PM

We have a winner! This is the most pedantic self-preening I’ve seen in some time. STFU for a while.

nico on August 29, 2009 at 6:33 PM

That is pretty arrogant. You don’t deny that there will be a Jewish Messiah as the scripts say, right? How are you going to know? WHICH Jew will declare the prophecy fulfilled. The New Testament was written entirely by Jews.

Yup. Darn those Jews who are so arrogant that they think their rabbis actually know something about the Torah and Jewish concepts.

As I said, Maimonides lays out the Torah’s criteria for who can and cannot be the Messiah (well, actually, the Messiah isn’t mentioned in the first Five Books, but I’m using the term Torah in a broad sense). Jesus died without ushering in the kingdom of God. End of story. Next candidate please.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, Apocrypha and Pseudopigrypha (sp?) were also all written by Jews, but are not authoritatively the word of God.

So your argument is, Jesus isn’t the Messiah because SOME Jews say He isn’t. When He comes back, who will have to declare ‘the Jews’ wrong?

Jews like Jeremiah, the prophet, who said that in the times of the “new covenant” (i.e. according to Christians, the last 2000 or so years), no man will have to teach another about God because all will know Him. Since you’re still busy preaching, I guess the Messiah hasn’t come yet.

As for the second coming (is the Messiah multi-orgasmic?), that’s perhaps the weakest of the Christian claims because such a thing cannot be found in the bible.

The “second coming” is an implicit acknowledgment that Jesus failed to fulfill the requirements of the Messiah.

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 6:18 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:34 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:34 PM

(-.-) ZzzZzzZzz

Democrats use corpses and children as props in the comedy of fail that is Marxism.

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 6:36 PM

Hey, I’m with Maimonides on this one, that for the most part Christianity and Islam are net positives because they have taught the world about the God of Abraham. Sure, they got a lot of the details wrong, but have indeed spread belief in one, omnipotent, eternal God.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:18 PM

Islam does not worship the God of Abraham. The islamic “allah” is the Arabic pagan moon god hubal, with Judaic, early heretical Christian, and Zoroastrian windowdressing.

Rebar on August 29, 2009 at 6:37 PM

Don’t want any knocks on the kids here, even jokingly. It’s not their fault.

Allahpundit on August 29, 2009 at 2:27 PM

Then why leave alliebobbit’s comment at 2:19? Just curious.

TWG78 on August 29, 2009 at 6:38 PM

But what about Marshall Applewhite and The Heavens Gate theology? Where do they fit in?

Surely they hated on some Jews.

nico on August 29, 2009 at 6:44 PM

Hey, if the priestly hierarchy of the day actually followed the conventional law and tradition, they wouldn’t be killing an innocent man in the first place. The fact that they held night court sessions and chose a contemptible method of punishment wouldn’t exactly be out of the norm for them in that context.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 6:25 PM

The “priestly hierarchy” didn’t control the Sanhedrin. While there were some of priestly descent in the Sanhedrin, that body was dominated by Pharisees – it was the high court of the Pharisees. The priestly hierarchy was dominated by the Sadducees.

As apostates go, compared to Elisha ben Avuyah, Jesus was a little pisherke, and the Sanhedrin never voted to execute ben Avuyah.

BTW, taking your argument to its logical end, if they were willing to execute an innocent man, why would they even bother with a trial?

The NT’s account is at odds with what we know about Jewish jurisprudence from Jewish sources. The reality is that it was almost impossible to convict someone of a capital crime and execution was so rare that a court that condemned a single man in 70 years was said to have blood on its hands.

Bottom line is that the early church had to distinguish itself from Judaism and curry favor or at least not antagonize the Romans. Making the crucifixion seem like a Roman bureaucratic execution at the behest of the bad, bad Jews, serves both ends. The Romans wouldn’t be embarrassed about the crucifixion. Nothing much embarrassed the Romans, and Jesus was just one of thousands of Jews that were crucified for this or that offense, real or imagined. Treating Pilate as though his hands were tied by the machinations of the Jewish leadership was necessary for both political and theological agendas.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:45 PM

As for the second coming (is the Messiah multi-orgasmic?), that’s perhaps the weakest of the Christian claims because such a thing cannot be found in the bible.

Ever read Thessalonians?

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 6:46 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:45 PM

*YAWN*

The Democrats fund the abortions of minorities with tax-payer money, but then use that same stolen money to maintain a political dynasty for their own children.

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 6:49 PM

Jesus died without ushering in the kingdom of God. End of story.

Christians like myself believe that we live in God’s Kingdom on Earth. The forgiveness of sins is a pretty powerful thing.

I have plenty of theories as to why Jesus came when He did. Is there anyone who believes Jesus would have gotten the death penalty in America? How about the use of a cruel death machine like crucifixion? And for the record. . . Jesus is NOT DEAD. Where is his tomb?

But God created the whole Earth. God created every person. God would not come to Earth to destroy most of it. Jesus came to re-establish the covenant with Creation. Jesus’ primary commandment was to preach to the ends of the Earth. His message needed to go to the Asians, the Africans, even the Americans (who were yet to be discovered by civilized societies).

God didn’t want to condemn the world without giving them the opportunity to be redeemed. Jesus will come back when people have had the opportunity to hear and accept the sacrifice and renewed Covenant. Even then you will have a period of tribulation where if you don’t believe, you will be given an opportunity to believe.

I agree that in the end, everyone will know. But as servants of God, it is our job to ensure that when that time comes, people know what they are looking at instead of God just condemning everyone for being people.

The statement that Jesus isn’t Messiah because SOME Jews say He isn’t is ridiculous. How about everyone saying that the Jews aren’t the chosen people because they don’t even control what Solomon built on the Temple Mount. If they were so chosen, why can’t they even enter what God gave them?

I could continue. . . but eventually it will get to the point where you accuse me of being anti-Semitic and stifle debate. That was a cute point you made about ‘damn those Jews who are so arrogant’. I was speaking to YOUR PERSONAL ARROGANCE when you said, well if I don’t say Jesus is Messiah, He isn’t.

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 6:50 PM

The “priestly hierarchy” didn’t control the Sanhedrin. While there were some of priestly descent in the Sanhedrin, that body was dominated by Pharisees – it was the high court of the Pharisees. The priestly hierarchy was dominated by the Sadducees.

Pharisees were not exempt from hatred of Jesus.

As apostates go, compared to Elisha ben Avuyah, Jesus was a little pisherke, and the Sanhedrin never voted to execute ben Avuyah.

Compare the historical splash Jesus has made to the impact of Elisha ben Avuyah (historically, in effect, ben Avuyah would be the “pisherke”). There are many reasons for his memory being kept alive. One of them was that he was leading a massive theological movement that threatened the current religious supremacy.

The Jewish leadership was all about maintaining power – there is not much other motive for executing an innocent.

BTW, taking your argument to its logical end, if they were willing to execute an innocent man, why would they even bother with a trial?

Two words: kangaroo court.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 6:52 PM

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 6:49 PM

Which plays havoc on finding good help in Hyannisport.

nico on August 29, 2009 at 6:52 PM

This is what a thread looks like when it is hijacked for someone’s personal agenda.

kingsjester on August 29, 2009 at 6:52 PM

ThackerAgency on August 29, 2009 at 6:50 PM

Dude, this guy is a Christian-baiting troll. He was sent by Charles Johnson or one of the other Democrat bigots to push your buttons.

He is clearly saying this stuff to make people forget about the awful things his party is responsible for, such as the murders of young women and babies, and their exploitation of the Catholic Church and children to grab more power.

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 6:54 PM

I think that’s Kabbalah or something dude.

Anyway, Ted Kennedy and his kin are disgusting mutants.

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 6:31 PM

The messiah as a warrior king is pretty much normative traditional Judaism, but then a lot of normative traditional Judaism has mystical aspects. You, on the other hand, wouldn’t recognize real Kabbalah if it came up and bit you on the tuchas.

Regardless of the political views of most of the Kennedy family, they are still capable of change for the better. Few people in this world are evil and few are saints. Most of us are in the middle.

Ted Kennedy was a wastrel, from a family of wastrels, but then King David was descended from an incestuous relationship, so there yet remains hope for the clan of Ol’ Joe, the Nazi sympathizer.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:54 PM

Speaking of Hypocritical:

The “DC Staffers” just sang “God Bless America” in front of Kennedy’s remains. In another generation no one will even know the words thanks to libs like him.
20 years from now we will hear government workers singing “Celebrate the Land” or a reasonable facsimile
Enjoy it while it lasts.

SayNo2-O on August 29, 2009 at 6:56 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:54 PM

PEDANT.

nico on August 29, 2009 at 6:56 PM

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:54 PM

*Burp* Chilli dogs for supper.

I didn’t quite get that. Something about Ted Kennedy being a retarded pig who funded Irish terrorists and wiped his swollen butthole on the Constitution?

TMK on August 29, 2009 at 6:57 PM

Ever read Thessalonians?

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 6:46 PM

That’s not in the Hebrew Bible. There is no mention of any “second coming” in the Tanach. Hell, there’s almost no mention of the Messiah, period, in the Hebrew bible.

You can’t convince me by citing a text I don’t accept as authoritative. Essentially you are arguing that I should accept a Christian concept because a Christian book says so.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:57 PM

It’s come to this: Dems task Teddy’s grandson with leading funeral prayer for ObamaCare

Well, we know damn well it wasn’t going to be Mary Jo kopechne’s grandson.

Dr. Charles G. Waugh on August 29, 2009 at 6:58 PM

PEDANT.

nico on August 29, 2009 at 6:56 PM

You forgot casuistic. Don’t forget to get in all the traditional anti-Judaism slurs.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:59 PM

That’s not in the Hebrew Bible. There is no mention of any “second coming” in the Tanach. Hell, there’s almost no mention of the Messiah, period, in the Hebrew bible.

You can’t convince me by citing a text I don’t accept as authoritative. Essentially you are arguing that I should accept a Christian concept because a Christian book says so.

rokemronnie on August 29, 2009 at 6:57 PM

Let me quote you…

that’s perhaps the weakest of the Christian claims because such a thing cannot be found in the bible.

You probably meant to refer to the Hebrew bible, but I find this funny regardless.

The fact that Jesus was the one who taught us about the Second Coming, and not the prophets, is also no disqualification of him as the messiah by a long stretch.

Black Yoshi on August 29, 2009 at 7:02 PM

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