Rove: Obama “cowardly” on DoJ and CIA interrogators
posted at 5:10 pm on August 27, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Karl Rove erupted on the Fox’s Tom Sullivan Show today when discussing the push by the Department of Justice for potential prosecutions of CIA interrogators for their actions in handling al-Qaeda detainees. He didn’t mince any words, calling Barack Obama “cowardly” for ducking responsibility for the decision to press forward with investigations despite promises from Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder that the administration wanted to “look forward”:
ROVE: I will tell you though I’m just furious about what attorney general Eric Holder did in naming a special prosecutor to go after the CIA for its use of enhanced interrogation techniques. These techniques were adopted only after the CIA consulted with the defense department with outside experts and the Justice Department about the standards, received legal guidance from the Justice Department authorizing their use, and they operated within that framework – five years ago there was a review of those methods. They found that in one instance the methods had been violated and abused and that person was prosecuted. This is now a second investigation – we are going to regret the moment when we told the CIA that if you have a high value target you run the risk of 5 years, 10 years down the line of being prosecuted for abiding by the legal advice you were given by the Justice Department. If you’re a smart CIA agent today, you’re not looking to be on the front line of the war on terror. You’re hoping you’ll get assigned to New Zealand or you’re going to have that assignment to Luxemburg rather than going to a place where you’ll come into contact with unsavory people, because at some point you could be sanctioned for doing your job protecting this country. This is just cowardly of the President of the United States to surrender this responsibility to Holder. It is irresponsible on the part of the Attorney General to do this. It hits at the security of the United States of America at a time when we‘re at war, and I just can’t see straight I’m just so spitting angry about it.
SULLIVAN: Its obvious that the President is shirking it by saying “It’s the attorney general, I have no say”, and the attorney general is saying “I have no say”…
ROVE: The attorney general works for him! He needs to be circumspect about it, but if he believes he is irresponsible to do this, which he said on several occasions that he wants to look forward not back, then he ought to step in and he should have told Holder “don’t do this.” And if Holder didn’t agree with him he had the ability to resign.
SULLIVAN: Even Holder said, “I don’t want to do this,” and now he’s turning around and using the special prosecutor card.
ROVE: Well and that’s another thing, rather than taking responsibility upon his own shoulders and saying there will be a Justice Department investigation led by people that I name who will be responsible to me, he’s putting it in the hands of a special prosecutor so he can wash his hands of it and not be held responsible for it. Again I do not use the word “cowardly” loosely, I use it advisedly, but this is cowardly on both the part of the White House and on the part of Attorney General Holder and its irresponsible o the part of both.
I think Rove is right on both counts, but especially with Holder. Barack Obama can argue that the White House should not be ordering an AG to pursue or stop an investigation, which would on its own look like political interference in what should be a non-political process. That may not be a very courageous position to take, but it has some basis in philosophy of executive non-interference in prosecutions.
However, the special prosecutor route is indeed a cowardly dodge, one which shows that Holder is very aware of the political risks of his decision. If Holder wants to pursue investigations, then let Holder be responsible for their outcomes. Special prosecutors are unaccountable and usually go off on wild tangents, creating a lot more political damage than actual enlightenment.
Update: Here’s the direct link to Sullivan’s show.









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yes, land body blows on the president. make him explain why Al Qaeda agents who killed so many Americans and almost brought this to the brink are now his star witnesses.
rob verdi on August 27, 2009 at 5:15 PM
You gotta be pretty partisan & biased to disagree w/ Rove.
So he’ll be trashed all over the media.
jgapinoy on August 27, 2009 at 5:16 PM
Rove, you magnificent bastard.
farright on August 27, 2009 at 5:16 PM
I think a Palin Facebook broadside on the issue would be nice right about now.
rob verdi on August 27, 2009 at 5:16 PM
But but but. A
terroristpeaceful protester had smoke blown in his face. That’s horrible.rbj on August 27, 2009 at 5:16 PM
Remember, Holder called all of us “cowardly” for not blubbering endlessly about race.
jgapinoy on August 27, 2009 at 5:17 PM
I predict another epic backfire if these idiots go forward with this witch hunt. The American people will not appreciate them caring more for terrorists’ rights than they do about America’s safety.
kingsjester on August 27, 2009 at 5:19 PM
Neither Holder nor Obama can dodge responsibility. They set this in motion; whatever the special prosecutor does is ultimately their responsibility. They (especially Obama) will reap the whirlwind when the intelligence fallout becomes clear.
No, we the voters can and will hold them responsible.
NeighborhoodCatLady on August 27, 2009 at 5:19 PM
Yet, the Black Panthers and Bill Richardson get a pass…there’s a lot more that stinks than just going after the CIA…the Obama administration is actively ignoring blatant criminal behavior by their friends.
I will press the next Republican administration to go after these people with both barrels…they set the precedent.
AUINSC on August 27, 2009 at 5:20 PM
It’s a distraction that will ultimately go nowhere. And it’s obviously working.
Daggett on August 27, 2009 at 5:21 PM
let them do it! let them hang themselves. and they will. please pass the popcorn!
Ghoul aid on August 27, 2009 at 5:21 PM
Well, I’m not sure it’s “cowardly” as much as irresponsible. Six of one….
Of course this warrants (not begs) the question: Why didn’t President Bush issue pardons to prevent this from happening?
SteveMG on August 27, 2009 at 5:22 PM
Lets not forget that some of these interrogators had their pictures taken and shown to Gitmo detainees. This whole episode is bordering on treason and just may have crossed that line.
fourdeucer on August 27, 2009 at 5:22 PM
We need more of this double-teaming. Cheney jabs and Rove punches. It’s a good fight.
sherry on August 27, 2009 at 5:22 PM
IMO it crossed the line a while ago. But when you own the AG and Congress, you can do what you like.
Daggett on August 27, 2009 at 5:23 PM
Now matter how many ways you slice this pie………
You own Barry and those sleepy eyed giants are watching.
See you on 9/12 Mr. Precedent.
Knucklehead on August 27, 2009 at 5:24 PM
Oh hell, don’t stop THERE….Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea…and apparently, trial lawyers.
HornetSting on August 27, 2009 at 5:24 PM
I’ve got another word, treason.
There was a day that would apply to this without a thought.
everything Obama is doing is destroying us
jp on August 27, 2009 at 5:25 PM
Particularly if we have another terrorist event here after the CIA is neutered. Holder and Obama are rolling the dice on this one.
a capella on August 27, 2009 at 5:25 PM
Terrorists have rights.
Black Panthers case dropped.
Prosecute the CIA for doing their job correctly.
Richardson probe “killed in Washington”.
Another day in Obama’s America.
VibrioCocci on August 27, 2009 at 5:25 PM
2010. Elect a GOP Congress and task them with it.
atheling on August 27, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Absolutely, the precedent is set for political prosecutions. The Obama administration is providing numerous targets for a Republican administration, especially the Czars.
farright on August 27, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Obama is a COWARD. He encourages his henchmen to carry out his dirty deeds while attempting to appear “above the fray”. He takes ZERO responsibility for anything and acts like an innocent bystander while these thugs run wild. DISGRACEFUL.
barrythrowslikeagirl on August 27, 2009 at 5:26 PM
You magnificent bastard……
………. indeed!!!
Seven Percent Solution on August 27, 2009 at 5:27 PM
The other evening there was some silly little woman on the Fox panel yammering about how we could have gotten this information without being mean…blah blah blah.
The thing is these people have already been investigated for crimes and have been cleared. How many investigations do there have to be before these idiots get off their soap box?
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM
OT: Beck’s talking about Obama’s national civilian security force. I was scared by this when it came to light in July 2008. This still scares the p*** out of me.
How the hell did people vote for this guess?
BuckeyeSam on August 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM
This will fall apart like everything else they are trying to push on us.
ohiobabe on August 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM
I
I can only hope that when Republicans win it back that they don’t take the honorable route and let it go.
sherry on August 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM
And they don’t even need any rope.
Knucklehead on August 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM
Obama has 14 months to either set up the country’s most crooked elections in history, or create a crisis so big he can cancel the elections.
The clock’s ticking, Barry.
Daggett on August 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM
How the hell did people vote for this
guessguy?BuckeyeSam on August 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM
sigh
BuckeyeSam on August 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM
This is one large diversion from the real issue that should be scaring the pants off every American: the complete and utter meltdown of the economy.
The Fed is saying that disclosing what it did with the TARP funds would damage the economy. Got that? That the truth of what was done with your money will damage the economy.
Folks, the FDIC is out of funds. There are many more bank failures coming, and soon. This CIA stuff is bulls*t.
It’s the economy, stupid.
shaken on August 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM
It wouldn’t be the most honorable route to let it go. Someone has to set the precedent that this kind of treason will not be allowed or overlooked in retrospect.
Daggett on August 27, 2009 at 5:30 PM
“Cowardly” is the least of the adjectives I can find in a dictionary describing Obama.
Catherine Wilkinson on August 27, 2009 at 5:30 PM
Like stealing elections they will keep on doing investigations until they get the results they like.
chemman on August 27, 2009 at 5:30 PM
It’s a shame Holder wasn’t quite as emphatic about “upholding the rule of law” when it was time to talk Clinton into dispensing a “Get Out of Jail Free” card to Marc Rich. I wonder if Rich’s ex had to “pay a little extra attention” to Bill, aside from the pile she donated to his library? As for Holder, maybe his newfound appreciation for the law can be attributed to wisdom coming with age, or his previous lack thereof to “youth”? If things go south, it’ll still be “Bush’s Legacy” of lawlessness, I’m sure.
tpitman on August 27, 2009 at 5:31 PM
I could be wrong but I think you need to be found guilty and convicted before you can be pardoned. I’m not aware of a “pre-emptive pardon”. Also, Bush likely never thought the Thug in Chief would actually do any of this.
MarkABinVA on August 27, 2009 at 5:31 PM
Imagine! Rove – or anyone – calling a guy who says, “wee wee’d up” a coward. Shocking. /not
Before the SRM gets all lathered up over this they should check out the Brits who regularly refer to BO as President Pantywaist.
Cody1991 on August 27, 2009 at 5:32 PM
And loser McCain is still telling people that Obama supports the constitution and is a good person.
farright on August 27, 2009 at 5:34 PM
I’m not even thinking of political prosecutions…I’m pretty sure there is serious criminal activity going in ‘The Most Transparent Administration Evah’ And yet, previous Republican administrations would just sweep it under the rug in the name of national unity or some weak crap…so, not after this. We just have to make sure we elect someone with the cajones to do it.
AUINSC on August 27, 2009 at 5:34 PM
I’m not sure it counts as preemptive but I think Ford’s pardon of Nixon would come close.
chemman on August 27, 2009 at 5:34 PM
Elect an effeminate anti semite and you get things like this.
Labamigo on August 27, 2009 at 5:36 PM
No, as mentioned above we had the Nixon pardon plus, for example, Carter’s pardon of the Vietnam draft dodgers.
There is precedent.
SteveMG on August 27, 2009 at 5:36 PM
And Lincoln/Johnson/Grant issued a number of pardons after the Civil War.
Presidential Pardons: Link
SteveMG on August 27, 2009 at 5:38 PM
This is just the beginning of the salvo…by time the American people get all the facts, the dems will be hiding under their table.
I have a feeling there are more then a few dems who are going to toss the president under the bus on this one.
Leiberman for one…
right2bright on August 27, 2009 at 5:39 PM
There is precedent.
SteveMG on August 27, 2009 at 5:36 PM
Bush had no reason to issue pardons because as highhopes says, the filthy liar in the whitehouse assured Bush there would be no looking back. In other words Bush had no reason to take preemtive action.
fourdeucer on August 27, 2009 at 5:40 PM
“Cowardly” very accurately defines Obama and his stooge Holder.
rplat on August 27, 2009 at 5:40 PM
maybe Bush didn’t want to do it to insinuate they in fact did something wrong, realizing how important this is to National Security?
plus, maybe he really beleived the left wasn’t this stupid and deranged?
jp on August 27, 2009 at 5:40 PM
he’s been quiet lately, time to come back roaring.
jp on August 27, 2009 at 5:41 PM
Bush probably didn’t have any idea of how low that Obama would go. It would have been nice to watch lib heads explode if he had.
farright on August 27, 2009 at 5:42 PM
They are hoping this prosecutor becomes another “Ken Starr” and takes this all the way to “crimes” by Cheney and Bush. An investigation by career DOJ lawyers would never be allowed to go that far. But there is a mystique in Congress and the media about “special prosecutors” that they are holy and their work cannot be questioned until they finish, preferably with numerous indictments.
rockmom on August 27, 2009 at 5:42 PM
yeah, I remember that…a few months ago, CW on the right and left is that he wouldn’t do it. Obama is throwing his mouth-foaming lefty nutroots a bone here…he’s apparently planning to stab them in the back soon as well.
AUINSC on August 27, 2009 at 5:43 PM
Your preaching to the choir. Neither SteveMG or I were slamming Bush. We were responding to a comment that Pardons couldn’t be given until a conviction had been entered.
chemman on August 27, 2009 at 5:43 PM
I do think that President Bush has an obligation to issue some statement about this.
Yes, it’s an ongoing investigation and maybe he’ll wait until some final product is issued.
Cheney, Rove and I believe a few others have commented. Why not Bush?
SteveMG on August 27, 2009 at 5:44 PM
Viet Nam vets were more of an amnesty then pardon…you can’t count on the news to get terms correctly.
It is “pre-emptive” for a commission of crime (and before ajudication), as far as Bush and the judicial review, there was no commission of crime…therefore no reason for a pardon.
right2bright on August 27, 2009 at 5:44 PM
How could any decent American call the present a coward for delgating this decision to the AG? I mean it’s not like the President had voted ‘present’ 130 times during his legislative career. Boy, talk about an unruly mob with cognitive dissonance!
/sarc
eaglewingz08 on August 27, 2009 at 5:46 PM
Coward-In-Chief.
Barack Hatesamerica Obama.
And A.G. Holder-of-his-own-undoing-by-this-madness, corrupt puppet of the Leftoid loons.
The country needs these gnawing imbeciles like a house needs termites.
profitsbeard on August 27, 2009 at 5:47 PM
Suppose now that the CIA sits on their proverbial hands and does not get information that they might have.
In case of another terrorist attack, will we be able to sue the government for wrongful death?
Deafdog on August 27, 2009 at 5:47 PM
It’s NOT a political issue because it’s not a political crime — nobody was questioning terrorists because it would affect the Democrats or Republicans. It’s a national security issue, and Obama is THE authority on that. If he wants to duck national security decisions he should resign. It’s only political to the extent it’s an issue that affects somebody’s re-election, and that should NEVER be a consideration in whether or not to investigate or prosecute.
Socratease on August 27, 2009 at 5:47 PM
chemman on August 27, 2009 at 5:43 PM
I know you wouldn’t slam Bush. I know none of us could have guessed just how devious Obama and Holder are.
fourdeucer on August 27, 2009 at 5:50 PM
CIA operatives interrogating terrorists according to the rules and their approved instructions: BAD
Black Planthers, brandishing guns, blocking voters from casting votes: GOOD
Change you can believe in?
TXUS on August 27, 2009 at 5:51 PM
Where the hell is DICK CHENEY ?
He should be out front raising hell.
And where the hell is GEORGE BUSH ? – freaking coward.
I cannot abide these “leaders” not getting out in front on this.
I am pissed off.
jake-the-goose on August 27, 2009 at 5:52 PM
Hmm, it’d be interesting to hear Rove’s response to the question as to whether he suggested/advised Bush to issue a pardon.
I’m sure the matter was discussed.
SteveMG on August 27, 2009 at 5:53 PM
I was going to post much the same think. Thanks for saving me the typing.
pseudonominus on August 27, 2009 at 5:53 PM
right2bright on August 27, 2009 at 5:44 PM
Were you referring to Viet-Nam vets or the draft dodgers?
fourdeucer on August 27, 2009 at 5:55 PM
Damn, wish I could fit that on a bumper sticker!
lovingmyUSA on August 27, 2009 at 5:57 PM
jake-the-goose:
George Bush is not a coward and neither is Dick Cheney.
What do you expect them to do? They are not running things anymore and Bush made it plain that when he left office he was not going to be like Clinton or Carter and never shut up.
Besides, this is about Cheney and Bush and chances are they have lawyered up. After all, they are the ones the left really wants, not some CIA interrogators.
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 5:59 PM
And a full accounting of every nickel they have stolen from us.
katy the mean old lady on August 27, 2009 at 6:00 PM
I understand your comments and respect your view.
Now – Bullsh_t
Cheney has had no problem up till now speaking out. So why suddenly go quiet? To lawyer up? No way. If you’re a leader you fight – you don’t hide – you don’t abide by some BS protocol – you freaking fight for what you believe in.
George Bush is a major disappointment – in my eyes.
jake-the-goose on August 27, 2009 at 6:11 PM
Dear Democrats:
Remember Lieutenant Colonel Oliver L. North testifying before Congress in July 1987?
How did that work out for you?
SwampYankee on August 27, 2009 at 6:13 PM
I don’t think Holder has a clue as to how he’s been set up for the fall here. We all know where the buck stops and it’s not on his desk. However, by following orders – and he WAS following orders from the president – Holder has instantly created the whipping boy that Obama needs when the fan and fecal material finally get together. Obama will claim he had nothing to do with the decision…and there will be Holder, with goooy stuff dripping from his lips.
GoldenEagle4444 on August 27, 2009 at 6:17 PM
Why do I always have this feeling that I should get even more ammo?
darwin on August 27, 2009 at 6:17 PM
No question that this was discussed and debated, given the years of criticism, congressional threats, and calls for prosecution from the left.
If, and when, actual charges are filed against the agents or the lawyers, I think we’ll learn that Obama gave post-election assurances to Bush that it would not happen. And that Bush bought it hook, line and sinker.
Why? Legacy protection? Not to cast a shadow on the individuals involved? Obama’s further assurance that Gates would remain at DoD and Afghanistan wouldn’t be dropped, hence Obama was acting like a serious CIC?
Whatever, I will be surprised if this whole thing doesn’t blow up in Obama’s face, although the damage to national security certainly already been done by virtue of even the hint of prosecution of these patriots. Something, it is sure, is an objective, not a bumbling accident.
TXUS on August 27, 2009 at 6:17 PM
PRESENT!
Theworldisnotenough on August 27, 2009 at 6:24 PM
GREAT POINT – GREAT POINT
jake-the-goose on August 27, 2009 at 6:26 PM
Republicans are playing a gentlemen’s game of golf, while Democrats play scorced earth. I believe we’re seeing so much anger at these town halls is because conservatives representatives don’t represent them. Republican’s have allowed all this to transpire. If I didn’t know better, I’d think they’re being blackmailed to keep quiet and remain cowed. If we don’t start getting better representation, there’s a revolution brewing that will force the Government to revert back to the people.
Obama’s minions see this on the horizon and that’s why he’s making up the new “Civilian Defense Force.”
SoldiersMom on August 27, 2009 at 6:34 PM
Just high lights one of our main problems. All the politicians in DC have no idea what is going on and that is why they cannot understand why the average American is so concerned. They cannot see “the forest for the trees”.
hillbilly on August 27, 2009 at 6:35 PM
Soldier’s Mom:
I am not sure that is true. How have Republicans allowed this to transpire? They are a minority. Maybe we should say the voters allowed this to happen by letting the Democrats gain control of the White House and the Congress.
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 6:37 PM
To be honest, I am not sure how this works, but I don’t know that a pardon can be issued in a case in which a person has not been charged with a crime of any kind.
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 6:39 PM
jake:
I wish he was still President myself. And tell me this, if those interrogators had been part of a Democratic administration, do you think any of this would be happening?
There is nothing Bush can do about this, he is not POTUS anymore. As for Cheney, after years of seeing that man stand tall, I am not going to question him now when I obviously do not even have all the facts, none of us do.
And I said what I did about lawyering up because I heard Liz Cheney say something to the effect that some of the people involved in all this were being guided by legal advisors. I am not even sure exactly what that means.
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 6:42 PM
So true. They even refuse to prosecute Black Panthers, with weapons, intimidating voters outside their polling place. Imagine how they’ll employ their “civilian” defense force?
P.S. If you are a soldier’s mom, thank him or her, from us, for their service.
TXUS on August 27, 2009 at 6:44 PM
I just heard that Cheney would be on Fox News Sunday.
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 6:48 PM
Thanks, in my haste, my mind was on the vets being dissed, but certainly I meant the draft dodgers…a bigger error I could not have made.
Thanks for correcting the record…of course the amnesty would be for those breaking the laws, the draft dodgers.
right2bright on August 27, 2009 at 7:03 PM
right2bright on August 27, 2009 at 7:05 PM
Heh, just bring some crack to the fight. Throw it on the ground and watch them fight over it….
izoneguy on August 27, 2009 at 7:06 PM
Barry and Holder think they’re being cute by doing this. They can tell their extreme left “we’re getting it done”, while telling centrists “we have no choice”.
But they may not have have anticipated THE LAW OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES. I don’t think they’ve figured in the backlash from the American public.
GarandFan on August 27, 2009 at 7:10 PM
right2bright on August 27, 2009 at 7:03 PM
No problem, your posts are always worth reading and very informative, I just didn’t know if you were relating to My-Lai or the draft dodgers.
fourdeucer on August 27, 2009 at 7:11 PM
Rove is correct. The behavior of Holder and Obama is both cowardly and irresponsible. The gloves have to come off and the correct identification of this current administration’s politicization of national security decisions, making them criminal actions, must stop.
The precedents determined by former investigations should be the end of the story. There were many safeguards put into place and supportive legal opinions during this interrogation process. Appropriate committee chairs were informed throughout.
The actions of Holder and the passive approval of Obama smell of political gaming, not a concern for the rule of law nor the security of our nation.
Holder and Obama should be the ones under investigation, along with Pelosi and Jay Rockefeller.
onlineanalyst on August 27, 2009 at 7:31 PM
I believe Eric Holder should be under investigation for his investigations.
BigMike252 on August 27, 2009 at 7:36 PM
I M P E A C H
They lied!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bluegrass on August 27, 2009 at 7:39 PM
So you think this is making Obama more popular?
Jim Treacher on August 27, 2009 at 7:39 PM
Both Obama and Holder are race baiters plain and simple……
bluegrass on August 27, 2009 at 7:40 PM
Tonight on the panel this woman reporter kept referring to crimes that were committed by the interrogators and no one really seemed to challenge that.
Is anyone aware of any actual crime that took place? I know one man {a contractor of some kind} was charged with assault, other than that I am not aware of any crimes…unless of course they intend to charge people with some retroactive something or other.
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 7:49 PM
I think Obama is using this as a bargaining chip to get his health care program passed.
fourdeucer on August 27, 2009 at 7:49 PM
right2bright:
My understanding is that prosecutors from VA already investigated this during Bush’s tenure and found no crimes, other than one assault. My point is that Bush was not aware of any crimes if that is true, no one was…so why would he issue a pardon? I am honestly confused about that. He is no longer POTUS, I don’t think the authority to pardon follows a president out of office.
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 7:52 PM
fourdeucer:
How would that work? Obama does not need the Bushies or the CIA to pass his health care plan. In fact he does not need any Republicans…so how does this bring pressure?
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 7:53 PM
This is “Wag the frickin Dog” people! In a court of law Dick Chaney would kick there damn ass and they know it. They don’t care. They want Health care Off the Front Page. Thanks to that scum uncle teddy and this b/s, guess what boys & girls………It’s working
try again later on August 27, 2009 at 7:55 PM
Every time there is a special prosecutor, I hope it will be the last. I think most Americans are tired of all this crap myself.
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 7:56 PM
tryagain:
I don’t think so. I don’t think it is working.
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 7:57 PM
How would that work? Obama does not need the Bushies or the CIA to pass his health care plan. In fact he does not need any Republicans…so how does this bring pressure?
Terrye on August 27, 2009 at 7:53 PM
I am not sure how you get republicans to go along with cap & trade or porkulous without some deal making. The blue dogs may be strong on defense and the threat of outing covert operators in trade for votes on health care could sway them. I am probably all wet but something is fishy.
fourdeucer on August 27, 2009 at 8:04 PM
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