Peter King on Holder’s CIA investigation: “You wonder which side they’re on”
posted at 5:05 pm on August 25, 2009 by Allahpundit
Easy there, pal. Are the prosecutions politically insane? Sure. Dangerous to national security? Very possibly. Likely to result in more renditions as an end-around this sort of headache in the future? All signs point to yes. But “bulls**t” and “disgraceful”? Holder’s limiting his focus (supposedly) to agents who went beyond the Bush guidelines. If it’s bulls**t for the AG to do even that, what’s the alternative? Carte blanche for the CIA? Let’s not make the same absolutist mistake about enhanced interrogation that our progressive betters always do.
Although, that said, it sure would be nice if our “shock the conscience” standard employed a conscience a bit hardier than, say, Andrew Sullivan’s.
“You’re talking about threatening to kill a guy, threatening to attack his family, threatening to use an electric drill on him – but never doing it,” King said. “You have that on the one hand – and on the other you have the [interrogator's] attempt to prevent thousands of Americans from being killed.”
“When Holder was talking about being ‘shocked’ [before the report's release], I thought they were going to have cutting guys’ fingers off or something – or that they actually used the power drill,” he said.
Pressed on whether interrogators had actually broken the law, King said he didn’t think the Geneva Convention “applies to terrorists,” and that the line between permitted and outlawed interrogation policies in the Bush years was “a distinction without a difference.”
“Why is it OK to waterboard someone, which causes physical pain, but not threaten someone and not cause pain?” he asked, warning of a “chilling” effect on future CIA behavior…
“They’ve declared war on the CIA. We should resist and fight back as hard as we can,” he said. “It should be a scorched earth policy…. This isn’t just another policy. This goes to the heart of our national defense. We should do whatever we have to do.”
Maybe he does want carte blanche. Although personally, I like Goldfarb’s idea better. Exit question via Ramesh Ponnuru: “[S]ince career prosecutors have already reviewed the cases under discussion and declined to pursue charges, how does it serve the rule of law for Attorney General Eric Holder to re-open the question?”
Update: How far will the media go to shift blame from Obama? This far. Click the image to watch.
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Well its not ours.
elduende on August 25, 2009 at 5:07 PM
You have to be a mental pretzel to follow these guys thinking…I must be a linear thinker…?
d1carter on August 25, 2009 at 5:08 PM
I think we do know what side they’re on………
JoeinTX on August 25, 2009 at 5:08 PM
What an absurd charge.
What, Democratic children and families won’t be killed as well? The terrorists only target Republicans?
Way to make a fool of yourself Congressman.
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:09 PM
You don’t have to wonder which side they are on…….it’s spelled “Commie”
Cinday Blackburn on August 25, 2009 at 5:10 PM
I read this a bit ago elsewhere and gave up a cheer for Peter King. He is saying what needs to be said, no handwringing necessary. Buck up and face it.
KittyLowrey on August 25, 2009 at 5:10 PM
The Rule of Law no longer has rules nor is it law. The ‘law’ is what the Dems and MSM define it to be, Constitution be damned and Conservatives be hanged.
Liam on August 25, 2009 at 5:11 PM
You don’t find things that are politically insane and very possibly dangerous to national security to be bulls**t and disgraceful? Whose side are you on?
Ronnie on August 25, 2009 at 5:11 PM
Ummmmm….isn’t this sort of the equivalent of “death panels”? Isn’t Eric Holder actually helping America’s enemies with this lunacy? Now they know that no matter what they do to America, they will never get more than a raised voice if they are captured. Thus are great powers brought low.
rockmom on August 25, 2009 at 5:11 PM
Snarktastic!
RushBaby on August 25, 2009 at 5:12 PM
I don’t think “sides” was referring to political parties, fool.
Ronnie on August 25, 2009 at 5:12 PM
Here’s what I don’t understand: Democratic children are just as much targets of the Islamists as Republicans.
Yet we find Democrats handing over pictures of CIA agents to terrorists, defending the terrorists, insisting on stopping the war against terror, and refusing to do what needs to be done to stop terror attacks.
amerpundit on August 25, 2009 at 5:13 PM
Just watched the Steele clip, he’s right on, too. Anyone who thinks Obama hasn’t approved this is either delusionial or flat-out stupid.
KittyLowrey on August 25, 2009 at 5:13 PM
Wait a second, please: The AG has named a prosecutor to look into charges that some CIA personnel may have gone beyond the authorized procedures by the President and some people think this means “they” are on
?
Sorry, that just doesn’t make sense. And frankly it’s a smear that I denounce.
Fire away.
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:13 PM
Are you joking?
Esthier on August 25, 2009 at 5:14 PM
I have to agree. it is bullsh*t.
Terrye on August 25, 2009 at 5:14 PM
Seems like just last week there was a story about the ACLU and other attorneys violating the law by ‘outing’ cia agents.
Now this week we have Holder, whos old law firm is representing some of the gitmo detainees, deciding to look into prosecuting cia agents.
Nothing to see here, move along!
Freddy on August 25, 2009 at 5:14 PM
AP, you are incorrect about easy there, he hit the perfect tone and comment, I would love to see the media and the Democrats scream “don’t question their patriotism”
rob verdi on August 25, 2009 at 5:14 PM
Well, some Democrats.
Is it possible that they’re just wrong? Their views don’t make sense? They’re, well, stupid?
Not malicious, not traitors, no for “the other side”.
Just dumb?
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:15 PM
nice!
pseudonominus on August 25, 2009 at 5:15 PM
They are clearly not on the side of freedom and liberty…
Silent No More
deedtrader on August 25, 2009 at 5:15 PM
Well, no. The AG appointed a prosecutor to deflect attention back to the Bush Administration, go on a witch hunt against the CIA that showed Pelosi and her allies as liars, and appease the far-left. This isn’t about honestly looking into charges.
amerpundit on August 25, 2009 at 5:16 PM
Right, because all of the other posters here who agree with King know he was only talking about Holder and the White House.
Moron.
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:16 PM
I think we all know what side they are on, Peter, but thank you for having the cajones to actually say it!
HornetSting on August 25, 2009 at 5:16 PM
The “I’m-embarrassed-by-my-side-when-they-speak-passionately-yet-soundly-and-see-an-equivalence-beween-that-and-moonbatty-lying-lefties-side”.
KittyLowrey on August 25, 2009 at 5:17 PM
Okay, it’s about domestic politics. It is, I agree.
Fine.
But it’s not about them being on the “other side.”
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:17 PM
Allah, please change your tampon. Geez, you really are thick. Stinging insects and a shot next door is not really too bad, is it?
HornetSting on August 25, 2009 at 5:18 PM
This is the same Eric Holder who called us “a nation of cowards” and dropped the prosecution of the Black Panthers who were caught brandishing weapons at a polling place. You think he is just dumb?
rockmom on August 25, 2009 at 5:18 PM
These hideous Obama people have chosen sides in this war, and it isn’t America’s side.
Dave R. on August 25, 2009 at 5:18 PM
No. The problem is they know what they are doing, they just don’t care. they put personal power and politics above national security.
Monkeytoe on August 25, 2009 at 5:18 PM
I don’t wonder at all…
Vashta.Nerada on August 25, 2009 at 5:18 PM
Until those doing the actual renditions realize that they can be brought up on charges later, held liable for whatever might happen to the poor terrorists in the countries they are sent to. If anyone thinks that The Precedent wouldn’t have someone do a rendition of Mohammed X to Egypt and then bring that person up on charges that he should have known that Egypt was going to do X, Y, and Z, then they haven’t been paying attention to how people are thrown under the bus with abandon.
Not strong enough, but those sentiments are pretty apt descriptions.
The Bush admin didn’t see fit to prosecute them, so why should Holder? Frankly, anyone who thinks that wars are run like sporting events with referees is insane and totally detached from reality. The whole point of the CIA, to acknowledge reality for a moment, is to go to foreign lands and break their laws in order to maintain our national security. The whole mission of the CIA, or any spy org in the world, is illegal in the silly “international law” sort of fairy-tale world. That’s why the CIA doesn’t perform any of its core operations on US soil.
Then again, our strategic nuclear arsenal stands in direct conflict with the Geneva Conventions, but there are parts of reality that cannot be bent to the demented wishes of childish liberals. I can’t wait for this treasonous administration to take our nuclear arsenal to court and has it ruled illegal, just as happened with the global warming fantasy and the categorization of CO2 as a ‘pollutant’. It’s coming.
Huh?
progressoverpeace on August 25, 2009 at 5:19 PM
Red herring. Dems’ health care “reform” still sucks. It’s still tanking BO’s numbers. People are still pi$$ed. This will just make it worse.
tkinTX on August 25, 2009 at 5:19 PM
You don’t hand over pictures of undercover CIA agents to murderous terrorists and later stand by the move because you’re “dumb”.
You don’t refuse to engage in necessary EITs and then refuse to answer hypotheticals about ticking time bomb scenarios because you’re “dumb”.
You can’t always assume that these lefties are stupid. Don’t underestimate how very conniving and well-thought out their actions are. Some of the more universal and foot troop anti-war protesters are clearly just morons. But there are very smart people in charge knowing exactly what they’re doing.
amerpundit on August 25, 2009 at 5:19 PM
They think we can negotiate with Iran.
They think we can negotiate with North Korea.
They think we can print trillions in money out of thin air and revive the economy with no consequences.
Yeah, I think they’re not too smart.
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:19 PM
Charges that have been looked at several times now since at least 2004 and found wanting as far as prosecutions (if they haven’t taken place by now)—including by Holder until yesterday.
KittyLowrey on August 25, 2009 at 5:20 PM
This is exactly what McCain should be saying, and saying it loudly…
Keemo on August 25, 2009 at 5:20 PM
“Separation from the POTUS”…my head hurts…
d1carter on August 25, 2009 at 5:20 PM
Don’t forget about Marc Rich, rockmom…
They are evil and they are stupid if they believe that we will allow this to stand for much longer.
HornetSting on August 25, 2009 at 5:21 PM
But you’re taking them at their word. What makes you think they’re being honest?
Esthier on August 25, 2009 at 5:21 PM
The “sides” are America and the terrorists, not democrats and republicans. You think King wanted to know which party Holder belonged to? Wow.
Ronnie on August 25, 2009 at 5:21 PM
That was the scum leftwing defense lawyers.
Yes, there are elements on the hard left who are sympathetic to the terrorists.
Just as there elements on the hard right who are sympathetic to the Klan or fascist groups.
But neither element is representative of the entire ideology or movement.
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:21 PM
All Hail Peter King
Finally the right question
bill30097 on August 25, 2009 at 5:21 PM
How about a National Heroes Day for interrogators?
whitetop on August 25, 2009 at 5:21 PM
Correct. This whole thing is still Bullsh*t Allah, and I think you know that.
JusDreamin on August 25, 2009 at 5:22 PM
Liberals believe we deserve the hatred of terrorists and once we placate them and ‘make amends’ that they won’t want to kill us any more. We’ve got to heal them to solve the problem – or so they believe.
gwelf on August 25, 2009 at 5:22 PM
I’ll split the difference between Steve and the others. The only side their picking is the one opposite GWB and Dick Cheney. It just so happens that it aids the enemy, and they don’t necessarily think about that part. As long as they get their man and divert some heat from the other debates they’re losing.
Matticus Finch on August 25, 2009 at 5:22 PM
Allah, are you kidding me??? What on earth is ‘absolutist’ about pointing out that this sort of CRIMINAL investigation of a previous administration & intelligence community is UNPRECEDENTED in American history, no less during a time of (2) wars!
I mean for crying out loud, the Church investigations of the CIA back in the 70s by dem senators exposed us OVERTHROWING a dozen governments around the world, and nobody went to jail. Carter didn’t “investigate” Nixon (after a freaking resignation) anymore than W didnt “investigate” Clinton (after a freaking impeachment).
And yet… now an American administration is going to INVESTIGATE a previous administration — and ACTIVE MEMBERS of our intelligence community — in a CRIMINAL manner…. because we turned on a Black & Decker for 5 minutes, played an entire CD of ‘rage against the machine’, and had water go up the nose of three (3!!!) terrorists, 1 of which led us to the 2nd guy, and the 2nd guy had killed a dozen americans *after* 9/11.
Quick, quick, someone alert the local community pools that doing underwater flips where water goes up the nose = torture!
Allah, i love your writing and your brain — you kick redstate (or any other ‘righty’ blog’s) TAIL…. but on this issue you are totally off. It sounds like McCain thinking, “oh please let’s let them like us!”. Dude, they hate us — and now they are making history and are going to endanger hundreds of active intelligence ops.
Isn’t that a problem????
battleoflepanto1571 on August 25, 2009 at 5:22 PM
Wake up, Allah. Wake the hell up.
Percy_Peabody on August 25, 2009 at 5:23 PM
Most Western leftists are suicidal, individually and towards their own societies. They feel very guilty about being part of the most successful civilization on Earth and think that they, and their societies, deserve to feel great pain.
progressoverpeace on August 25, 2009 at 5:23 PM
1. Screw the terrorists, let them rot at Gitmo.
2. Stop taking sides with the terrorists, leave the CIA operatives do what the do to keep us safe.
That’ll do for starters. Then maybe someone can send a memo to Hussein and Eric the Red, reminding them what took place on September 11, 2001.
fogw on August 25, 2009 at 5:23 PM
“Inexcusable” might be the better term.
Tonus on August 25, 2009 at 5:23 PM
As if I needed another reason to like Peter King…
ynot4tony2 on August 25, 2009 at 5:25 PM
Me neither.
It is shown once again, Democrats cannot be trusted with national security.
Norwegian on August 25, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Yes and yes. Next question?
It is dumb and malicious. This is war. Why is it that liberals expect America to abide by rules of war that only liberals would create? The enemy sure has no intention of abiding by those rules. Might as well go to war with out any weapons.
rukiddingme on August 25, 2009 at 5:26 PM
I think it has been plainly clear for quite some time. They ain’nt on our side!
Archimedes on August 25, 2009 at 5:26 PM
King:
“It’s bulls*** [the investigation]. It’s disgraceful. You wonder which side they’re on,” he said of the attorney general’s move, which he described as a “declaration of war against the CIA, and against common sense.”
If Pelosi or Reid asked which side the Bush White House was on in the war against terror, we’d know what he or she meant.
And the followup comments are embracing King’s view about Democrats and the left.
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Are you seriously urging that readers employ MODERATION when considering whether or not the men and women who __SUCCESSFULLY__ prevented another 9/11 should be prosecuted for political gain?!?
Listen, if THIS particular issue flags as “absolutist” to you, then you are just as lost in the same moral-relativist dreamworld as the worst ultraliberal on dailyKos. If the first thing that pops into your head when someone expresses outrage that we “threatened” and “waterboarded” people who smiled as they sawed off Nick Berg’s head as he screamed on youtube is “hmmm these conservatives are being absolutists!” then you are utterly lost.
Khorum on August 25, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Why, yes, thank you…not to mention bats**t and outrageous.
Sure. And the check is in the mail, and I love you no s**t, etc.
Here’s the deal. Holder is freelancing. Maybe he’s the one running the store while The One is away. Hell, maybe he’s the one running the store, period. (Although I would think that honor would belong to Axlerod and/or Emanuel) And that’s the part that I find to be complete bulls**t. I didn’t vote for Obama. I DAMN sure didn’t vote for Rahm “Dead Fish” Emanuel, or David Axlerod, or Eric Holder. If The One can’t control his own employees, how the hell does he expect us to believe he can run anything really complicated – like health care?
uncivilized on August 25, 2009 at 5:28 PM
They (dems and the left) are giving aid and comfort to the enemy. They are even proud of it.
progressoverpeace on August 25, 2009 at 5:28 PM
About right.
fourstringfuror on August 25, 2009 at 5:28 PM
Are the lawyers being tried for treason?
Esthier on August 25, 2009 at 5:28 PM
Note to Allah: Spend less time shaving your cat in some apartment in Manhattan and more time on Planet Reality.
Norwegian on August 25, 2009 at 5:29 PM
Will someone please tell Michael Steele to straighten his eyeglasses.
sonnyspats1 on August 25, 2009 at 5:29 PM
If you weaken US Intelligence at a time of war does that not help the other side?
If you deliberately weaken your side knowing it will help the other side is that not defacto aiding the other side?
If you deliberately or inadvertently help the other side with your actions are you not in the end helping the other side anyway?
Stupidity is no excuse for aiding the enemy. But there is no evidence they are innocently pursing this to uphold the law.
This is about their ideology and it happens to be in alignment with the ideology of the enemy.
elduende on August 25, 2009 at 5:29 PM
I’m on Congressman King’s side.
CP on August 25, 2009 at 5:29 PM
And she wouldn’t be asking him which party he belonged to. She’d be asking if he was trying to help the terrorists.
Ronnie on August 25, 2009 at 5:29 PM
I think it is absolutely absurd – and unintentionally harmful – to prosecute these agents for these alleged acts.
What they did may have been unethical or inappropriate and not authorized by the President.
But they were not – simply not – criminal offenses.
Fine, punish them internally. Fire them, fine them, suspend them. Whatever.
But none of them deserve to go to jail or to have to spend thousands of dollars defending themselves for these absurd charges.
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:30 PM
Are you reading these follow up comments?
Do these people believe that King wasn’t referring to more than just the White House?
Your argument should be with them as much as me.
Go for it.
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:31 PM
How many times will these dips**ts pull the pin on a hand grenade and drop it nearby and not think it’s going to hit them? They are trying to cover really bad news with rEALLY bad news….
ted c on August 25, 2009 at 5:31 PM
I agree with all but the “unintentional” part.
Matticus Finch on August 25, 2009 at 5:32 PM
It is all about the show trials, and from their side (yes, I meant that) a hoped for plea from the underlings to implicate bigger fish. National security be damned – which is why I wonder which side they are on.
Vashta.Nerada on August 25, 2009 at 5:32 PM
Glenn Beck is blowing the lid open
faraway on August 25, 2009 at 5:33 PM
This is the same Eric Holder that won the release of that cuddly democrat financier Marc Rich. He of Iranian oil trading during an embargo fame. SteveMG, what side would that be on?
DanMan on August 25, 2009 at 5:33 PM
FIFY
Norwegian on August 25, 2009 at 5:34 PM
I get the feeling that the Obama administration already knows they screwed the pooch on this one. I bet you they’re wishing they could have a do-over starting yesterday. This will blow up in their faces.
Matticus Finch on August 25, 2009 at 5:34 PM
I imagine King was referring to Holder and anyone who supports him.
Ronnie on August 25, 2009 at 5:35 PM
I don’t I know they play for the other team.
Even fellow traveler Hugo Chavez was a bit envious when Comrade Obama took over GM and Chrysler.
jukin on August 25, 2009 at 5:35 PM
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t this the same Eric Holder who basically vacated a judgement against the New Black Panther Party for voter intimidation. If he isn’t against threats by the Panthers then this new prosecution must be political because it certainly isn’t about the rule of law.
chemman on August 25, 2009 at 5:35 PM
This is my first post on HotAir and I’m glad to be here in the company of people who love this country of ours!
As soon as I heard the interrogation BS was being brought up again, I figured it was to be used by the administration as a distraction from the health care issue.
That being said, as an American mom who would like to protect her family and country from additional terrorist attacks, I’d gladly grab a drill and give it a whirl if it’ll help a guy cough up information on what plane they’re going to hijack or what mall they’re going to blow up.
Keep in mind, these terrorists actually DO torture and then behead Americans. And they don’t do it to keep their countries safe. They do it because they HATE us with every fiber of their being and they want to see us ALL dead. Even the Dems who want to be nice to them. So if a little incentive is necessary to get them to spill the beans…hand me a drill!
SouperConservative on August 25, 2009 at 5:35 PM
I love the Administration’s strategy.
kingsjester on August 25, 2009 at 5:35 PM
As I see it, this is mainly meant to be a distraction, and secondly, a dare to terrorists to attack again. What’s the loss of a few thousand, or more citizens, when it creates a crisis to take advantage of?!
capejasmine on August 25, 2009 at 5:35 PM
This is silly. I hope that the CIA interrogators when faced with the choice to get the most out of a terrorist to save American lives or mindlessly follow stupid rules they do the right thing. The liberals may hate them but god will understand and forgive and so will the people they saved.
Even talking about an investigation will drastically change how they conduct themselves so, yes; this is weakening the country and emboldening the enemy.
dpierson on August 25, 2009 at 5:35 PM
The only thing McCain should be saying is “I resign” and frankly, noone gives a crap how loudly he says it.
Does ANYONE really still believe that moderate Republicans still have a future in the party? Does anyone really still believe the McCains and Grahams will carry more influence than the Paul Ryans and Kyls and Palins?
Tie off the RINOs and let them wither like the useless appendages they are.
Khorum on August 25, 2009 at 5:35 PM
He is on a roll…there are going to be many more coming after Glenn, but he had the highest ever ratings yesterday.
d1carter on August 25, 2009 at 5:36 PM
AMEN!!! 100% correct!!!
capejasmine on August 25, 2009 at 5:36 PM
Congratulations, you occupy the “centrist” position on torture.
crr6 on August 25, 2009 at 5:36 PM
He can’t even control his own “wee-weed” up mouth.
tkinTX on August 25, 2009 at 5:37 PM
OT: The Weather Underground founder wrote the stimulus bill
faraway on August 25, 2009 at 5:37 PM
Then the other option is to be relative and when the choice is between life on the one hand and “rights” and the other I hope they (The interrogators) chose life (maybe even mine). Off course the libtards also think Life is less important than Privacy so we understand how they feel about it.
dpierson on August 25, 2009 at 5:39 PM
Terrorists are not subject to the Geneva Conventions because:
They don’t represent actual countries
they don’t wear uniforms
they hide behind civilians
they don’t adhere to recognized rules of combat
they have no respect for prisoners, etc.
Those captured in the course of combat or intel should be milked of every bit of intel by any means necessary, then terminated.
I am sick and tired of this “moral equivalence” crap If you’re too squishy to accept this, move to Sweden or some other callow country.
And SteveMG, stop being a douche. Go back to KOS where I’m sure you’ll fit right in.
1921 C DRUM on August 25, 2009 at 5:40 PM
Obama:
Voter intimidation: Good
Terrorist intimidation: Bad
I see.
lorien1973 on August 25, 2009 at 5:41 PM
I was sufficiently impressed with Peter King’s remarks when I saw them in Politico to write my conservative Congressman and ask why the rest of the Republican Party isn’t raising the roof about this.
Sorry but I have NO sympathy for this absurd political vendetta which has but one objective — appease the left while Obama diddles with his failed single payer stealth initiative.
Not only did Obama just free a terrorist to return to the Taliban and kill Americans, he’s bent on prosecuting Americans who sought to protect our country from a terrorist attack. If you read parts of the report, it is clear that the CIA bent over backwards to treat the terrorists well. And if “threatening a terrorist” is now a crime they can start rounding up a whole lot of Americans — heck, I’ll be glad to go first.
DaMav on August 25, 2009 at 5:42 PM
I know which side the muslim in chief is on…vacation just happens to coincide with start of Ramadan? Is he fasting during daylight? Anyone seen him with a burger? All the proof I need.
jwp1964 on August 25, 2009 at 5:42 PM
Yes, the WH and anyone who supports the decision.
He referred to the “leftwing of the Democratic party” that King says is pressuring the WH to prosecute these people.
So, the White House and the left are the ones his question was about.
I should have said children of the leftwing of the Democratic Party and not just Democratic Party. I stand corrected.
Yes, there are hard left elements who are more sympathetic with the Islamists than with us. But I think it’s a small fringe.
I think it’s a dumb statement.
Made even more dumb by directing attention away from this awful decision and to his comment.
SteveMG on August 25, 2009 at 5:43 PM
We should applaud when someone in DC finally has the guts to call “bulls**t” about something Osama Obama and his band of ethical cripples are doing.
That epithet, along with “disgraceful,” has applied to virtually every action the Child-President and his co-conspirators have done from Day One.
An America-hating nonentity, leading a gang of worthless (and, in many cases, criminal) hacks, deserves nothing less.
Pile up enough “bulls**t,” and the stench will even get through to people who aren’t paying attention.
MrScribbler on August 25, 2009 at 5:43 PM
That is the point they don’t think.
chemman on August 25, 2009 at 5:44 PM
Michelle on Beck now
fireworks
faraway on August 25, 2009 at 5:45 PM
I’d say Mehsud is pretty intimidated.
crr6 on August 25, 2009 at 5:46 PM
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