A peek inside the numbers of the hospital endorsement

posted at 10:12 am on August 25, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Among the ostensible motivations for health-care reform, cost savings from treating the uninsured ranks the highest and most understandable.  Reformers argue that the uninsured wind up in emergency rooms, getting the most expensive treatment possible, leaving hospitals and taxpayers on the hook for their care.  Moving the uninsured into coverage and clinics would save hospitals so much money that we could pay for large-scale government systems without increasing costs to society.

That sounds reasonable.  But is that true?  The New York Times looks at the numbers behind the endorsement of ObamaCare by hospitals, where a nugget of information contradicts the notion that this small minority of Americans creates that much of a problem:

Now a cost-benefit breakdown quietly posted on the Web site of the Tennessee Hospital Association helps fills in the answer.

The breakdown estimates that the industry will receive additional money of about $171 billion over those same 10 years as a result of reimbursements for newly insured patients who would be covered under the overhaul plan. In other words, the hospitals would give up $155 billion in cost cuts, but take in $171 billion in new money — a net gain of $16 billion.

What’s more, the Tennessee association notes that the deal delays most of the industry’s cost givebacks until the second half the agreement’s 10-year year period — well after the hospitals have enjoyed some of the benefits of the new money they’re expecting from expanded insurance coverage.

That may explain why hospitals like ObamaCare.  They get a nifty profit off of it.  And to gain that profit, they only have to trade a small portion of their proceeds anyway:

President Obama has praised the hospitals’ cooperation, and some policy analysts argue that securing their support was politically valuable. (The administration struck another parallel agreement with powerful drug industry lobby.)

But some experts wonder at the price of that political support. Alain Enthoven, a health economist at Stanford University, noted that $155 billion was only about 1.5 percent of total hospital revenue over 10 years — even before taking into account the new, larger amount of money that hospitals can expect if more people have insurance.

Wait — the money they will give back only amounts to 1.5% of their revenue?  That would make the $171 billion they receive for reimbursements about 1.7% of their projected revenue.  What happened to the vast costs that the uninsured create specifically for hospitals as a result of their inability to pay?  Even at the more modest projections of the number of uninsured (14 million), they comprise at least 4% of the population.  Their portion of revenues (unrealized) at hospitals doesn’t even amount to their representation in the population as a whole.

Reformers want us to overhaul a system that works for most Americans, which satisfies most Americans, in order to account for an unrealized 1.7% of hospital revenues.  That’s absurd.

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Its not about Healthcare its about power. Its about turning us into slaves, beholden to people like Obama and Pelosi for our lives.

elduende on August 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Obama’s quest is not about reforming the system. It is about cradle to grave government control of Americans’ lives. Period.

kingsjester on August 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM

enough with the common sense already

gatorboy on August 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM

elduende on August 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Sorry, kiddo. Great minds.

kingsjester on August 25, 2009 at 10:17 AM

I work for a regional healthcare alliance, and I am not for Obamacare. We don’t need it.

This is nothing but a power grab….and it’s not even disguised well.

ladyingray on August 25, 2009 at 10:17 AM

It almost would make one wonder if this isn’t a made up crisis in order to scare people into submission…

Almost…

Skywise on August 25, 2009 at 10:18 AM

That is absurd. Its also absurd to think building more clinics will automatically motivate the uninsured to use the clinics. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

jbh45 on August 25, 2009 at 10:18 AM

Some of the other agreed-upon cuts include $50 billion less in federal payments to hospitals to help them cover emergency care for patients without insurance. But those cuts would occur only if the overhaul effort had successfully reduced the the number of uninsured. In other words, the hospitals would need less of a federal subsidy if more patients could pay their own bills.

–The hospitals had already agreed on these cuts, which weren’t in the figures.

Jimbo3 on August 25, 2009 at 10:19 AM

It is not about healthcare. It is about power over the people, and creating another government-dependent class that has no choice at election time.

Vashta.Nerada on August 25, 2009 at 10:20 AM

The more we know about those that are endorsing ObamaCare the more we learn about their relationship with Dear Leader. PhRMA gives $80 billion for the right to earn $3.6 trillion, now this. Who is looking out for the patient’s rights?

d1carter on August 25, 2009 at 10:21 AM

We’ve been pwnd, or at least we are fixin’ ta be if we allow it to happen.

Ordinary1 on August 25, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Sorry, kiddo. Great minds.

kingsjester on August 25, 2009 at 10:17 AM

recognize the danger, stand up for their principals, and are not afraid to speak out.

elduende on August 25, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Its not about Healthcare its about power. Its about turning us into slaves, beholden to people like Obama and Pelosi for our lives.

elduende on August 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM

+9,000,000,000,000

WAKE UP PEOPLE! OBAMA IS NOTHING BUT A HUSTLER TRYING TO STEAL OUR COUNTRY!

GrayDog on August 25, 2009 at 10:22 AM

This whole thing only makes sense if you look at it through a “POWER GRAB” lens.

marklmail on August 25, 2009 at 10:23 AM

This is all true, Ed; but you gotta know that telling this truth is not helpful to, you know, Michelle’s children.

MikeA on August 25, 2009 at 10:24 AM

I am an MD. When I saw the hospitals climb on board I knew they smelled money! No one makes more profit in health care than the hospitals, even after covering indigent services. Why? Example: surgeon reimbursement for total hip replacement including post operative visits for 2 months or more…not more than $2000. Hospital reimbursement from Medicare or insurance company for the hip and stay…more than $70,000. Wonder why health care is so expensive? Hospitals and our dependence on health insurance is where the money is.

jawbone on August 25, 2009 at 10:25 AM

Obama’s healthCare plan, which he talks alot about but is not PRINTED ANYWARE FOR CONSUMPTION is not about HealthCare. It is about debasing the individual. It is about Tyranny and enslavement.

The Gov’t wants to own you from cradle to grave. Why? Because some crackpot sociologists believe that what is best for society is not what is best for the individual. Unless you are part of the intelligentsia that gets to make the decisions on the behalf of all those misguided people.

James on August 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM

Reformers want us to overhaul a system that works for most Americans, which satisfies most Americans, in order to account for an unrealized 1.7% of hospital revenues. That’s absurd.

It’s all about socialism.

farright on August 25, 2009 at 10:30 AM

The devil is in the details. Obama is lying his *ss off and will say ANYTHING to get this done. When they get this monstrosity passed, the beuraucrats will write all sorts of power grab language into the operating manuals and procedures. Obama is the biggest crook in world history, and he has thousands of people to assist in this takeover.

marklmail on August 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM

Previous commenters have said it all . . . this entire charade is nothing but a power grab by Obama and his left wing stooges.

rplat on August 25, 2009 at 10:35 AM

Obamacare is made with the following ingredients:

Whale Oil Beef Hooked…!

Wanderlust on August 25, 2009 at 10:36 AM

It’s not about healthcare. It’s about control.

davidk on August 25, 2009 at 10:36 AM

It is now blatently obvious. Every. Single. Thing. These. People. Do. Is based on the accumulation, consolidation, and holding of POWER. That is why they try to focus on long-term so-called “problems” such as environment, health care, etc. We must act now, you see, because we’ll all die in 10 years if we do nothing. And 10 years from now, well, it’s been a good beginning.

And Not. One. Single. Government. Agency. EVER! gets closed down completely. As of a couple of years ago, the military was still purchasing and storing, and never using, an amount of helium (I think) because it was mandated by law for them to do so, to make sure that the blimp fleet had plenty of gas. Blimp fleet!!

That is why we MUST shut these people and their sick programs down NOW.

JamesLee on August 25, 2009 at 10:39 AM

My son was in the Navy some years ago, and was married with a young daughter. I asked him about the free medical care the Navy provided him and his wife and kid, and he said it was fine if you wanted to spend all day-or longer-waiting to see a doctor in a fully-packed waiting room. Same went for Navy dentists. Lots of customers, not so many doctors or dentists available. Sounds familiar.

bradley11 on August 25, 2009 at 10:39 AM

jawbone on August 25, 2009 at 10:25 AM

This makes perfect sense, thanks for the info.

But, I’m still confused as to why the AMA is supporting this abomination. I know they’re libs, but what are they telling their members re: their reasons for support. What am I missing here?

TXUS on August 25, 2009 at 10:40 AM

HCA hospitals have agreed to support Obamacare and will take a reduction in payments for treatment with the assumption that they will offset that reduction by increaseing the number of “covered patients”. However, by accepting payment reduction for the covered patients, these hospitals will be demanding their vendors cut their costs as well. This is going to have a negative impact on companies that supply hospitals and surgery centers with equipment because it will force these companies to cut their costs by laying off employees. It’s a vicious cycle and will only make things worse for those of us who work in the medical field and for those who seek medical treatment.

Redneck Woman on August 25, 2009 at 10:41 AM

these are not the droids hospital profits you’re looking for

/waves hand

CMonster on August 25, 2009 at 10:43 AM

bradley11 on August 25, 2009 at 10:39 AM

That is exactly why everyone I knew with families in the Navy would “CHAMPUS Out” as soon as possible, even making B.S. checkup appointments to get out of that system. Not sure how it works now, but that was early 90s.

JamesLee on August 25, 2009 at 10:44 AM

But, I’m still confused as to why the AMA is supporting this abomination. I know they’re libs, but what are they telling their members re: their reasons for support. What am I missing here?

TXUS on August 25, 2009 at 10:40 AM

Ditto AARP.

1921 C DRUM on August 25, 2009 at 10:44 AM

Looks like Obama’s “transparency” campaign pledge is being upheld… much to his displeasure.

itsacookbook on August 25, 2009 at 10:47 AM

Oh but it’s a crisis!!!!!

WisCon on August 25, 2009 at 10:50 AM

In our little town of just under 100,000 people, we have two emergency rooms and probably close to a dozen urgent care clinics, including one that operates on a sliding fee scale for the poor. Those who are truly indigent pay nothing at all. It’s staffed by doctors and nurses in the community who rotate and volunteer their services.

A couple of these clinics are pretty busy all the time — the ones that have been around forever — but the newer ones are practically empty. I’m not sure how they even stay open. Suffice it to say, on those rare occasions that I need to see a doctor, I go to the urgent care clinic.

I think it’s time hospital ERs started cracking down on non-emergencies. Unless someone is in serious distress or about to give birth, they should be dispatched to the nearest clinic. In our case, some are within walking distance. I think much of the problem among the uninsured using the ER instead of clinics for their routine care is that they are simply uneducated as to what other services exist. That and the fact that there’s a law prohibiting ERs from turning people away. The law doesn’t need to be repealed, but maybe it needs to be revised.

I will say that issues that arise after hours present a problem that clinics can’t readily address, but I see no reason some clinics can’t be open 24 hours.

NoLeftTurn on August 25, 2009 at 10:51 AM

They still get away with the 45 million uninsured bs. A compliant and un-informed press is destroying the nation.

aikidoka on August 25, 2009 at 10:51 AM

Conflict? What conflict?

conservative pilgrim on August 25, 2009 at 10:53 AM

Its not about Healthcare its about power. Its about turning us into slaves, beholden to people like Obama and Pelosi for our lives.

elduende on August 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Obama’s quest is not about reforming the system. It is about cradle to grave government control of Americans’ lives. Period.

kingsjester on August 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM

All in less than a year. Unbelievable.

conservative pilgrim on August 25, 2009 at 10:55 AM

That’s absurd.

Proof that is a democrat plan.

csdeven on August 25, 2009 at 10:56 AM

1921 C DRUM on August 25, 2009 at 10:44 AM

As to AARP’s support, they’re essentially an insurance company that makes most of their money from selling insurance to members for the things that Medicare won’t cover.

Since Obamacare is going to cut hundreds of mllions from Medicare, they’ll sell even more insurance to cover this larger gap.

At least that’s my understanding of it.

TXUS on August 25, 2009 at 10:58 AM

I do blame the MSM as much as Dear Leader.

d1carter on August 25, 2009 at 11:20 AM

NY Times is doing some good reporting lately. What’s going on over there?

hawksruleva on August 25, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Another facet of the insurance- hospital- Obamacare mess is the constant pressure for “change” and to be part of something “new.” Hospitals (at least in most areas) compete by building new facilities, adding new diagnostic equipment, etc. to establish the narrative that they are better than the rival across town.

When a popular, exciting “new” leader sailed into the Whitehouse with “hope” and “change,” IMO far too many healthcare leaders jumped onto the Obamacare bandwagon without truly understanding where it was headed.

Also, if Obamacare passes (and it looked pretty inevitable when support was being raised), would you want to be the industry/corporation opposing or failing to support the program while your rivals had the inside track?

I think the support is mistaken, but I think I can understand how it happened.

cs89 on August 25, 2009 at 11:24 AM

That is absurd. Its also absurd to think building more clinics will automatically motivate the uninsured to use the clinics. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

jbh45 on August 25, 2009 at 10:18 AM

You could make a law that allowed emergency rooms to turn away people without insurance if you had a clinic system set up. As it stands, it is against the law for an emergency room to deny care.

You might not be able to force people to use the clinics, but you can keep them from using the emergency room if an alternative is readily available.

ThackerAgency on August 25, 2009 at 11:26 AM

Just read in the current edition of The Week, hardly a right wing rag, that Massachusetts saw an increase in ER visits after their healthcare “reform” was passed rather than a decrease, which was supposedly going to be a benefit of passing it. The cynic in me thinks the hospitals know this, and it goes with Ed’s analysis that they stand to make a bigger profit.

SoFlaCon on August 25, 2009 at 11:28 AM

Obama is throwing America under the bus for 1.7%? If the Dems try to pass this junk by underhanded methods and “reconciliation” or using Senate rules (as Schumer) wants to do to force this down our throats, we need to resolve to make it their Waterloo. Keep the pressure on folks. We have not yet begun to fight.

Christian Conservative on August 25, 2009 at 11:31 AM

I simply don’t understand Pharma and Hospitals going along with this. I understand that they think they are avoiding much more serious revenue cuts by entering into such “agreements” (are these agreements constitutional? Does the executive have constitutional or legislative authority to enter into such “agreements”).

But, what makes them believe the “agreements” will be honored? I’m certain that a year, or two or even 4, the congress will amend the law to take away whatever benefit PHarma and Hospitals think they are getting. What can they do then, sue for breach of contract?

They are betting on the honesty of an administration and congress that has proven no honesty. Moreover, as congress changes or administrations change, the new people have nor requirement to honor promises made by others.

And, it is the law that a sitting congress cannot tie the hands of a future congress – so they can’t pass legislation and promise it won’t be changed.

This is incredibly naive and short-sighted. PHarma and Hospitals are digging their own graves by doing this.

Monkeytoe on August 25, 2009 at 11:37 AM

Amen, Christian Conservative.
We need to keep up the pressure. The dems are launching their counter attack.

balkanmom2 on August 25, 2009 at 11:40 AM

The real figures don’t support the claim of cost savings. Instead, they support the assertion that this is all about a socialist takeover of the health care system. I think the industry people that are caving to the Messiah are simply trying to pick the side they think is going to win.
The part I don’t understand is the relentless support from so many groups of Americans that think that, somehow, THIS iteration of socialism will succeed where every other throughout history has failed. Is it stupidity, arrogance, or both?

n0doz on August 25, 2009 at 11:41 AM

There is nothing like insurance to encourage the over-utilization of health resources. If it costs you “nothing”, you will use a lot more of it. The ERs and physcian offices will be overwhelmed. All these sound bites are BS. Preventative care costs more, people hwo have never had insurance and now have it will overlad the ERs and Drs. offices and will seek treatment for every belly ache that comes along.

bopbottle on August 25, 2009 at 11:56 AM

I think much of the problem among the uninsured using the ER instead of clinics for their routine care is that they are simply uneducated as to what other services exist.

Great! Now you’ve got the NEA involved! /sarc

ExpressoBold on August 25, 2009 at 12:01 PM

Tom Daschle’s law firm represents the Tennessee Hospital Association.

Coincidence??

rockmom on August 25, 2009 at 12:04 PM

Just read in the current edition of The Week, hardly a right wing rag, that Massachusetts saw an increase in ER visits after their healthcare “reform” was passed rather than a decrease, which was supposedly going to be a benefit of passing it. The cynic in me thinks the hospitals know this, and it goes with Ed’s analysis that they stand to make a bigger profit.

SoFlaCon on August 25, 2009 at 11:28 AM

People don’t show up in the ER because they don’t have insurance. They show up in the ER because they are stupid and lazy and cheap. A hell of a lot of people WITH insurance go to the ER because their insurance pays 100% for emergency visits, but only 80% for visits to their doctor. They think it’s like a 7-11 for when they get sick – more convenient and cheaper.

A lot of other people never bother to find a family doctor, or a pediatrician, they never get themselves or their kids annual physicals that could help them prevent sudden illness that prompts ER visits, etc. Just making insurance “more accessible and affordable” will not change this lazy and dumb behavior.

rockmom on August 25, 2009 at 12:10 PM

OT:
Feingold: No health care bill before Christmas
Waterloo
WHOOPS!

elduende on August 25, 2009 at 12:10 PM

There is nothing like insurance to encourage the over-utilization of health resources. If it costs you “nothing”, you will use a lot more of it. The ERs and physician offices will be overwhelmed. All these sound bites are BS. Preventative care costs more, people who have never had insurance and now have it will overlad the ERs and Drs. offices and will seek treatment for every belly ache that comes along.

bopbottle on August 25, 2009 at 11:56 AM

+1

The only ways around this are: to employ an army of case managers to work with people and teach them how to use health care resources appropriately, or to ration care. Neither are very attractive options.

rockmom on August 25, 2009 at 12:12 PM

Who exactly are these uninsured? Are those using Medicaid, Medicare, or military members under Tricare counted as uninsured in the reports?

Also, what is the amount of uninsured persons visiting the hospital compared to the total number of uninsured?

How many of these hospital visits are from uninsured illegal and legal aliens who would not benefit from Obamacare?

caldfyr on August 25, 2009 at 12:48 PM

There is nothing like insurance to encourage the over-utilization of health resources. If it costs you “nothing”, you will use a lot more of it. The ERs and physician offices will be overwhelmed. All these sound bites are BS. Preventative care costs more, people who have never had insurance and now have it will overlad the ERs and Drs. offices and will seek treatment for every belly ache that comes along.

bopbottle on August 25, 2009 at 11:56 AM

++

When I was a kid my stepfather got insurance through his employer. Suddenly if my back hurt from falling asleep on a pile of laundry, I was faced with 3 weeks of chiropractor visits.

caldfyr on August 25, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Reformers want us to overhaul a system that works for most Americans, which satisfies most Americans, in order to account for an unrealized 1.7% of hospital revenues. That’s absurd.

Move over Shakespeare it’s the ROI Kabuki Theater.

AASLT on August 25, 2009 at 1:07 PM

This makes perfect sense, thanks for the info.

But, I’m still confused as to why the AMA is supporting this abomination. I know they’re libs, but what are they telling their members re: their reasons for support. What am I missing here?

TXUS on August 25, 2009 at 10:40 AM

The AMA is for Obamacare because they will be paid higher Medicare rates. The rates are set to be reduced in 2010, but Obama and the Dems say they will not reduce them in 2010 and WOW, AMA signs on to the plan.

AARP – they’re going to be a provider of insurance under the Obama plan.

So, both of these organizations ought to be ashamed of themselves – especially AARP. They hold themselves out as protectors of the seniors, and their approval of the Obama plan will cause the death of seniors.

Why the AMA supports Obamacare
http://trueslant.com/rickungar/2009/07/20/wondering-why-the-ama-supports-obamacare-here%E2%80%99s-the-answer/

oneconcernedcitizen on August 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM

oneconcernedcitizen on August 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM

Thanks.

TXUS on August 25, 2009 at 1:36 PM

I read somewhere that the AMA has 236,000 members (and losing daily). It’s doctor locator shows 814,000 doctors in the US. Therefore AMA only represents 29% of our doctors.
I think I will listen to the other 71%.

journeyintothewhirlwind on August 25, 2009 at 2:17 PM

“Reformers argue that the uninsured wind up in emergency rooms, getting the most expensive treatment possible, leaving hospitals and taxpayers on the hook for their care.”

Those reformers have never been in an emergency room. These people do not get paid to be there. They wait endlessly to make it through triage and have their minor ailment looked at by a nurse,not some brain surgeon.

percysunshine on August 25, 2009 at 2:51 PM

……..leaving hospitals and taxpayers on the hook for their care

Want to cut hospital costs by 20 % overnight? Require proof of legal status in US before providing treatment.

TopLawyer on August 25, 2009 at 3:19 PM

OK, it’s anecdote time. A friend of mine, a former hospital administrator, told me that the cost metrics for his, and other hospitals according to his associates in the industry, are calculated upon there being an 80% insurance payout on average. Factoring that the 20% co-pays would never be collected allowed them to calculate 100% of the costs into 80% receivables. Therefore if any of the 20% co-pays were ever collected from individuals it was considered both icing on the cake and offset costs generated by people with no insurance. Pretty nifty planning. His hospital never turned anyone away, continually updated it’s technology, and drew very talented health care professionals. Other experiences/conversations revealed that this financial arrangement made it very easy for hospitals to decide to turn over no-pay co-pays for collection. Half of the icing with no effort still was sweet.

Robert17 on August 25, 2009 at 3:51 PM

Stop talking about Socialist. Obama’s under the table inteferance with the economy and collusion with both labour and management smacks of Fascism.

davod on August 25, 2009 at 8:59 PM

I read somewhere that the AMA has 236,000 members (and losing daily). It’s doctor locator shows 814,000 doctors in the US. Therefore AMA only represents 29% of our doctors.
I think I will listen to the other 71%.

journeyintothewhirlwind on August 25, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Please do.

Coastal Paradise on August 25, 2009 at 8:59 PM