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The irony of “reconciliation”

posted at 9:30 am on August 19, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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The New York Times offers a strong hint that Democrats in the Senate will use the budget reconciliation process as a cover to move ObamaCare through the chamber to avoid a filibuster.  The Democrats will “go it alone,” the headline reads, although the actual report makes the how of that rather ambiguous.  And well it should, since the Democrats know — or should know — that to try reconciliation would be an invitation to a war that would bring Congress to a screeching halt:

Given hardening Republican opposition to Congressional health care proposals, Democrats now say they see little chance of the minority’s cooperation in approving any overhaul, and are increasingly focused on drawing support for a final plan from within their own ranks.

Top Democrats said Tuesday that their go-it-alone view was being shaped by what they saw as Republicans’ purposely strident tone against health care legislation during this month’s Congressional recess, as well as remarks by leading Republicans that current proposals were flawed beyond repair.

Rahm Emanuel, the White House chief of staff, said the heated opposition was evidence that Republicans had made a political calculation to draw a line against any health care changes, the latest in a string of major administration proposals that Republicans have opposed. …

The Democratic shift may not make producing a final bill much easier. The party must still reconcile the views of moderate and conservative Democrats worried about the cost and scope of the legislation with those of more liberal lawmakers determined to win a government-run insurance option to compete with private insurers.

In fact, the article never mentions the word “reconciliation,” the process by which the Senate approves a budget for the federal government.  Under the rules of reconciliation, no cloture vote is needed, as the chamber has a Constitutional duty to produce a budget.  Some Democrats have threatened this for months, notably Chuck Schumer, but the plan has a couple of big flaws.  First, the Democrats have to convince the Senate parliamentarian, ostensibly non-partisan, to agree that the bill is primarily budgetary.  No one in their right mind could honestly make that judgment about massive regulation of 15% of the American economy.  They’re likely to get denied before they even get started.

However, if they do manage to get past that obstacle, the Republicans can shut down the Senate for the next  year.  Those unfamiliar with the parliamentary procedure may not realize that a great many steps get skipped by unanimous consent.  Bill-reading is just one example.  One Senator can force each and every bill to be read aloud at every appearance it makes on the Senate floor, including when they are sent to committee.  For ObamaCare and cap-and-trade, one bill reading could take a week, keeping the Senate floor locked off from any other business.

Traditionally, Senators give each other the courtesy of unanimous consent to allow business to proceed at a normal pace.  If the Democrats try to force ObamaCare through reconciliation, that unanimous consent will dissipate faster than an Obama expiration date.  It won’t take the entire Republican caucus to gum up the works, either; it only takes a single objection to end unanimous consent, and the GOP has more than a couple of conservative firebrands who will gladly toss sand in the gears to stop Harry Reid from steamrolling them.

Democrats might think that this will gain them sympathy with the public, but not if they’re breaking rules to pass an increasingly unpopular and intrusive piece of legislation.  It will create a firestorm of anger even worse than what we’ve seen in the townhalls thus far.  They would be signing their way to minority status, especially in the House.  They can kiss the rest of their agenda goodbye for the rest of this session, too, including cap-and-trade.  Even budgeting will prove very difficult.

There’s a reason the Times didn’t mention reconciliation.  It’s a bluff.  Not even Harry Reid is this foolish.


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She was the most effective salesman
CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:02 AM

If the DNC thought so, they wouldn’t have thrown her under the bus.

misslizzi on August 19, 2009 at 10:05 AM

Reconciliation is the only way they could have a vote on this garbage that would allow their Blue Dogs to vote Nay, thus saving their hides.

But Ed’s right. It would only take one or two senators to shut down the process, and I think there’s a few more than that who’d be willing.

We have them where we want them but can’t let up. Also, remember that Cap and Tax is still out there, and shutting down the senate could kill that, too.

TXUS on August 19, 2009 at 10:05 AM

I think they should read the bills at least once on the floor on general principles, regardless of the politics of it.

zmdavid on August 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM

And in the case of the health insurance industry those profit margins are pretty outrageous, 30-40%.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM

You’re a liar.

John D on August 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM

Why not just make Al Franken read it? Make him work for his money.

misslizzi on August 19, 2009 at 10:03 AM

Make him wear the bunny suit.

Disturb the Universe on August 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM

Here are links to some of the recent polls, by the way. Even in the recent poll, a majority says that significant reform is needed and supports requiring employers to provide healthcare coverage. Complain about Cranky all you want, but he has a point.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32464936/ns/politics-white_house.

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1562.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121664/majority-favors-healthcare-reform-this-year.aspx.

http://www.ebri.org/publications/ib/index.cfm?fa=ibDisp&content_id=4293.

Jimbo3 on August 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM

“government-run plan” polls much worse than “public option” and “government-run plan” is more descriptive of the proposal in HR 3200.

clorensen on August 19, 2009 at 9:51 AM

Exactly. It is counterproductive to use the opponent’s propaganda Newspeak when repudiating it. Call it what it is, not what it’s marketed to sound like.

maverick muse on August 19, 2009 at 10:07 AM

Is it wrong that I kind of hope it gets to this? That the GOP gets to fight and not have to worry about being PC?

Cause this would be entertaining as all get out if the democrats are stupid enough to push it.

gophergirl on August 19, 2009 at 10:07 AM

But I’ll admit until there’s a new rash of polling on the public option I’ll conceede there’s been an eroding of support over the past month.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:45 AM

The problem is you look at last night’s Dartmouth Town Hall held by Barney Frank. It was probably more balanced between pro- and anti-Obamacare folks than the other meetings, but for God sakes, this is Barney freakin’ Frank’s district, not some Blue Dog in a southern Red State, and the pro-health care reform people know by now the other side is really making their voices heard.

Given one of the most liberal congressional districts in the nation and with the left knowing about the outcry against Obamacare, if the best they can do there is about a 60-40 split at Frank’s Town Hall in opposition to the plan, that’s a problem, whether the HuffPo writers want to admit it or not.

jon1979 on August 19, 2009 at 10:08 AM

maverick muse on August 19, 2009 at 10:07 AM

In your world propaganda is a “one-way” street I guess.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:08 AM

Even in the recent poll, a majority says that significant reform is needed

Jimbo3 on August 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM

From your second link:

Public Generally Opposes Health Care Proposals

Del Dolemonte on August 19, 2009 at 10:08 AM

Maybe he meant to register as “CrankyinDepends”?

misslizzi on August 19, 2009 at 10:02 AM

LMAO, still dizzy misslizzi.

TXUS on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Here are links to some of the recent polls, by the way. Even in the recent poll, a majority says that significant reform is needed and supports requiring employers to provide healthcare coverage. Complain about Cranky all you want, but he has a point.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32464936/ns/politics-white_house.

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1562.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121664/majority-favors-healthcare-reform-this-year.aspx.

http://www.ebri.org/publications/ib/index.cfm?fa=ibDisp&content_id=4293.

Jimbo3 on August 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM

Reform and wanting HR 3200 is completely different. I want tort reform and medicaid reform – so yeah I fall on the list of wanting reform but what I want and what the democrats are pushing through are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

gophergirl on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

No. Figures for premiums in private insurance plans are determined by profit margins.

Profit margins are only one part of the equation in determining the selling price of a good or service. The first step is accounting for cost of goods sold. In the case of insurance companies, claims represent a significant cost.

ICBM on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Everything I’ve seen suggests that the net profit margin on insurance overall is in the range of 4% to 6%. That’s based on the financial statements of some of the insurers who are public companies. My understanding is that many of the Blue Cross/Blue Shield companies are non-profits and may actually run at a loss some years. Maybe others can provide more concrete numbers?

Jimbo3 on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

1. Citizens in every industrialized nation with some form of a public option pay less for healthcare, per citizen, than we do. I’ve yet to hear an argument for why cost savings are somehow possible everywhere else but America.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:56

I lived in one of those other industrialized nations for a number of years, and you’re right, healthcare spending per citizen was less. It was also far lower quality in my experience. This is just anecdotal of course, but I wonder if you have any personal experience backing your arguments?

DarkCurrent on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Is it wrong that I kind of hope it gets to this? That the GOP gets to fight and not have to worry about being PC?

Cause this would be entertaining as all get out if the democrats are stupid enough to push it.

gophergirl on August 19, 2009 at 10:07 AM

It’s not wrong. But probably only a handful of Republicans would fight and then all of the other Republicans will go on the 24/7 news to denounce the tactics.

myrenovations on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Figures for premiums in private insurance plans are determined by profit margins. And in the case of the health insurance industry those profit margins are pretty outrageous, 30-40%.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM

Your profit margin numbers are off by a factor of ten.

Vashta.Nerada on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Reid is exactly this foolish. The Dems really believe that the GOP is somehow in control of the Congressional agenda – because why else would things be less than perfect – and so they genuinely think they’re in a Clinton-era “government shutdown” environment. Since that went well for them they figure this will go well for them too.

Yeah, and they thought demonizing the townhall protesters would work too. When the media showcased angry outrage, most TV viewers felt sympathetic.

The Dems have no mandate for their Trojan Horse. After all, if they really had a mandate, they wouldn’t have to play these games.

pearson on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Is it wrong that I kind of hope it gets to this? That the GOP gets to fight and not have to worry about being PC?

gophergirl on August 19, 2009 at 10:07 AM

Too many in the GOP don’t want to fight. As it stands right now only one Republican has had the balls to take on the communists.

darwin on August 19, 2009 at 10:10 AM

Let the Democrats “go it alone” if that is what they so desire.

It will make it all the easier for the American people who is really to blame for this whole debacle, and to see who they really were dumb enough to vote into office, namely people like Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Dodd, Franken, Kennedy, and a whole host of others who don’t give a DAMN about them or what they think.

And Republicans, take note when you regain power in Congress in 2010 that the same thing will happen to you unless you pay more attention to the people who put you in office and less to your own personal interests.

The American people are not gullible or stupid as the Democrats would delude themselves in believing, and we are now sick and tired of poor government and poor leadership.

pilamaye on August 19, 2009 at 10:10 AM

Premiums are high mainly because of government action or inaction. Too much regulation and failure to control the massive influx of illegals into the country.

darwin on August 19, 2009 at 10:05 AM

We’re getting somewhere now. What regulations has the federal government placed on private health insurance over the past 10 years that explains premiums rising so much faster than wages? Even if you dispute the profit margins argument, and there’s good reason to, the acceleration of premiums really can’t be explained by federal regulation. Nor can it be explained by illegal immigration a problem that has been pretty steady over the last 30 years.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:10 AM

Del, also from the second link:

Public Supports Addressing Many Health Care Reform Goals

While there is more skepticism than support when it comes to the overall proposals before Congress, many of the specific elements being discussed are broadly favored. More than three-quarters (79%) favor requiring insurance companies to sell health coverage to people, even if they have pre-existing medical conditions, and 65% favor requiring that all Americans have health insurance with the government providing financial help for those who can’t afford it. A slim majority (52%) also favors a government health insurance plan to compete with private health insurance plans, while 37% oppose a government option.

The public is more divided in opinion about the various ways to pay for changes to the health care system. A majority (63%) favors raising taxes on families with incomes of more than $350,000 and individuals earning more than $280,000. A similar number (61%) favors requiring employers to pay into a government health care fund if they do not provide health insurance coverage to their employees.

However, 62% oppose taxing employees whose health insurance benefits are above a certain value. A majority (58%) also opposes tighter restrictions on what medical procedures Medicare and Medicaid will cover.

Jimbo3 on August 19, 2009 at 10:10 AM

You’re delusional, too. You’re schtick fools no one.
Blake on August 19, 2009 at 9:40 AM

You’ve nailed me, Blake. But you couldn’t be more wrong about fooling no one with my schtick. I fool myself all the time — and if ever there were a no one, it’s me.

But I give you credit for being right on one out of two counts. Therefore and henceforth, you shall be known as the guy with the Half-Blake idea.

FlameWarrior on August 19, 2009 at 10:11 AM

Your profit margin numbers are off by a factor of ten.

Vashta.Nerada on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Give it a few weeks. It will be off by a factor of fifteen.

pearson on August 19, 2009 at 10:11 AM

Jimbo3 on August 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM

for the last time. “reform” does not mean “government intervention” nor “government run”.

You ignore the polls that say people DO NOT want that. Stop being disingenuous.

elduende on August 19, 2009 at 10:11 AM

In your world propaganda is a “one-way” street I guess.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:08 AM

Still interested in seeing your evidence for 30-40% profit margins.

darwin on August 19, 2009 at 10:11 AM

And in the case of the health insurance industry those profit margins are pretty outrageous, 30-40%.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM

Try 3.3%

But you were close.

BadgerHawk on August 19, 2009 at 10:11 AM

Utter shutdown ahead

Then you don’t think they’re going to “milk” this?
:D

oldernwiser on August 19, 2009 at 10:12 AM

This is just anecdotal of course, but I wonder if you have any personal experience backing your arguments?

DarkCurrent on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

I think anectodal evidence is what’s wrong with the healthcare debate. Overall healthcare outcomes in those nations are not significantly worse, and in some examples they are better, than here.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:12 AM

darwin on August 19, 2009 at 10:11 AM

He didn’t answer me either. He just throws stuff out there and hopes no one questions him. Typical.

kingsjester on August 19, 2009 at 10:12 AM

Reconciliation or not, I’m continually amazed by the brazen arrogance of the Dems towards the American public. Not that I should be, anymore, but still…

redfoxbluestate on August 19, 2009 at 10:13 AM

Complain about Cranky all you want, but he has a point.

Turfers are getting more subtle. Must be the higher-paid bots starting to filter in.

Bat Chain Puller on August 19, 2009 at 10:13 AM

Go ahead, let the leftist congress pass this socialist aberration and put the country on a fast track to communism. All this just to satisfy the hedonistic needs of their parasitic constituents who are constantly scrounging for more “free stuff” from this nanny government. Lovers of freedom and liberty will never accept this course and the country will soon be engulfed in chaos.

rplat on August 19, 2009 at 10:13 AM

Obama “cares about costs”??

especially when he is already using printing press economics?

Nah Ogabe wants the power to pick who lives and dies no matter how indirectly and he wants that money in the federal pool….

in all likelihood they will set up crushing taxes “to help pay for the ‘great care’ we’re giving you” and like Social Security and MediCare the donks will use it to fund midnight basketball, the Robert C Byrd Memorial Gold Plated Toilet at the exit 45 rest area in West bah gawd Vaginia and seed money for their little ACORN….but a system anywhere near as sane as a solvent medical plan ran by the feds?

“no”

sven10077 on August 19, 2009 at 10:13 AM

Paging Mr. Smith. You’re wanted in the House – stat!

OldEnglish on August 19, 2009 at 10:14 AM

Jimbo3 on August 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM

I consider myself to be someone who wants ‘major reforms’, but in the opposite direction as cranky. Most polls don’t differentiate, because most polls are trying to ‘prove’ that most people want public option reforms.

BadgerHawk on August 19, 2009 at 10:14 AM

The irony in all this is the proof Democrats can’t run ANYTHING, even their own party, when they control Congress. And they continue to assume American taxpayers want them to run health care or anything else? NO. Truly, the inmates are running the asylum. It’s what you get when you put an incompetent in charge of incompetents.

bradley11 on August 19, 2009 at 10:14 AM

. My understanding is that many of the Blue Cross/Blue Shield companies are non-profits and may actually run at a loss some years. Maybe others can provide more concrete numbers?

Jimbo3 on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

This is correct. ALL Blue Cross plans used to be ‘non-profit’ plans. Some of them have converted to for profit status and offer stock. Anthem, for example, is a collection of different states’ Blue Cross plans that have gone for profit.

Everyone is familiar with Blue Cross. But most people don’t realize that every state has a different Blue Cross. Some states have several different ‘blue cross’ companies.

CrankyIndy, The only problem with the system is that Medicare and Medicaid are not bringing in enough money to pay their claims. . . even at 30% less reimbursement rates.

You have to pay for Medicare and Medicaid now even though you don’t get it and probably won’t by the time you reach 65. Your solution is to expand that to the entire system? You expect hospitals and doctors to continue practicing in that environment?

ThackerAgency on August 19, 2009 at 10:14 AM

Still interested in seeing your evidence for 30-40% profit margins.

darwin on August 19, 2009 at 10:11 AM

There’s a dispute on the question of profit margins and I’ll conceede that both sides are manipulating numbers for their side. There really is no response, however, to the fact that premiums have risen faster than wages due to healthcare monopolies. Let me be clear, I’m pissed that the bill doesn’t address those issues, but the reason it doesn’t address monopolies isn’t because the Dems are lefty socialists. It’s because they are writing a bill that’s a giveaway to the private insurance industry if there is no public option.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

While there is more skepticism than support when it comes to the overall proposals before Congress, many of the specific elements being discussed are broadly favored. More than three-quarters (79%) favor requiring insurance companies to sell health coverage to people, even if they have pre-existing medical conditions, and 65% favor requiring that all Americans have health insurance with the government providing financial help for those who can’t afford it. A slim majority (52%) also favors a government health insurance plan to compete with private health insurance plans, while 37% oppose a government option.

Irrelevant. The Dems have a 1000-page bill with lots of added stuff that easily overwhelms these soft numbers. Blame the Dems for over-reaching instead of write a small bill that specifically targets.

pearson on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

Try 3.3%

But you were close.

BadgerHawk on August 19, 2009 at 10:11 AM

“damn skippy, I uh would like to point out that 700 jobs *is* in fact really close to 500,700…”

//chairman Soetoro

sven10077 on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

I was able to sit through an entire segment last night with Keith Olbermann and Lawrence O’Donnell. Why? They were flabbergasted and nauseous over the results of their own poll.

Marcus on August 19, 2009 at 9:39 AM

Heh. Now THAT would be the only reason I’d ever tune in to PMSNBC. Just to watch the shocked expressions on the ugly faces of these two assclowns when the numbers come in.

UltimateBob on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

FlameWarrior pirated the argument from Mark Steyn’s context yesterday….
maverick muse on August 19, 2009 at 9:47 AM

Mav, did you check with me first to confirm that I had hoisted the Jolly Roger and boarded the HMS Steyn, or are you merely taking a wild guess as a showboater?

FlameWarrior on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

Bill-reading is just one example. One Senator can force each and every bill to be read aloud at every appearance it makes on the Senate floor, including when they are sent to committee.

Hopefully read with the same “dramatic pauses” they use in Who Wants to be a Millionaire.

Seriously though, this is something the radical left has been attempting since John Dingell was a freshman in the House. They see this as the point where all the stars have aligned. I don’t see them giving up easily even if it means suspending the rules. And yes, for the record, Harry Reid is this stupid.

highhopes on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

We’re getting somewhere now. What regulations has the federal government placed on private health insurance over the past 10 years that explains premiums rising so much faster than wages? Even if you dispute the profit margins argument, and there’s good reason to, the acceleration of premiums really can’t be explained by federal regulation. Nor can it be explained by illegal immigration a problem that has been pretty steady over the last 30 years.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:10 AM

Are you kidding? Regulations force companies to cover people for virtually everything … from nose bleeds to Ebola infection to drug rehab to AIDS treatment.

That right there forces high premiums. People should be able to buy policies for what they feel they need or want. Not being able to buy across state lines. That limits competition drastically.

Illegal immigration hasn’t been steady … it’s exploded, and they get medical care for free. To make up for the cost hospitals must charge higher fees for services which in turn forces insurance companies to raise premiums to cover those raise costs.

What dream world do you live in?

darwin on August 19, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Maybe others can provide more concrete numbers?

Jimbo3 on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

See my 10:11 link.

BadgerHawk on August 19, 2009 at 10:16 AM

There’s a reason the Times didn’t mention reconciliation. It’s a bluff. Not even Harry Reid is this foolish.

I dissagree. Harry Reid is that foolish. He just lacks the stones to go forward with his foolishness.

t.ferg on August 19, 2009 at 10:17 AM

CrankyIndy, The only problem with the system is that Medicare and Medicaid are not bringing in enough money to pay their claims. . . even at 30% less reimbursement rates.

You have to pay for Medicare and Medicaid now even though you don’t get it and probably won’t by the time you reach 65. Your solution is to expand that to the entire system? You expect hospitals and doctors to continue practicing in that environment?

ThackerAgency on August 19, 2009 at 10:14 AM

Last time I checked, Medicare was running a $300 billion deficit this year, even after underpaying claims.

Also, a poster the other day made a great point. There is one well-known program where costs are rising faster than medical care – first class postage. Who runs the post office again?

Vashta.Nerada on August 19, 2009 at 10:17 AM

propaganda is a “one-way” street I guess.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:08 AM

As you say, in your world.

Partisan propaganda aka marketing proliferates a direct and concise message to leave no confusion.

Don’t play the troll asshat. The world is populated with partisans. Guess on your own dime. And NEVER presume to speak for me.

maverick muse on August 19, 2009 at 10:17 AM

There’s a dispute on the question of profit margins and I’ll conceede that both sides are manipulating numbers for their side.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

No, both sides aren’t manipulating. Insurance profits can be easily checked. Your side is just plain lying and fear mongering.

darwin on August 19, 2009 at 10:18 AM

There’s a dispute on the question of profit margins and I’ll conceede that both sides are manipulating numbers for their side.

LOL! You’re the one peddling bogus numbers and when you get caught with your dishonesty, you try to spread the blame around.

And in the case of the health insurance industry those profit margins are pretty outrageous, 30-40%. – CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM

pearson on August 19, 2009 at 10:19 AM

Reconciliation or not, I’m continually amazed by the brazen arrogance of the Dems towards the American public. Not that I should be, anymore, but still…

redfoxbluestate on August 19, 2009 at 10:13 AM

It’s not just the Democrats. There was an elected Republican who told us to “shut up” about amnesty. Not to mention the elected Republican who switched parties because he was “above” having a primary opponent.

myrenovations on August 19, 2009 at 10:19 AM

The American people are not gullible or stupid as the Democrats would delude themselves in believing, and we are now sick and tired of poor government and poor leadership.

pilamaye on August 19, 2009 at 10:10 AM

The sheople are gullible/stupid as the the Democrats have correctly assessed. They continue to fool MOST of the sheople MOST of the time.

CMonster on August 19, 2009 at 10:19 AM

It’s because they are writing a bill that’s a giveaway to the private insurance industry if there is no public option.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

BS. HR 3200 is best described as a giveaway to the trial lawyers who support the filthy liar and his corrupt party. There is no reasonable person (which apparently leaves you out) who would argue that the root of reform of healthcare includes tort reform.

highhopes on August 19, 2009 at 10:19 AM

Top Democrats said Tuesday that their go-it-alone view was being shaped by what they saw as Republicans’ purposely strident tone against health care legislation during this month’s Congressional recess, as well as remarks by leading Republicans that current proposals were flawed beyond repair…..New York Times

Wrong again, New York Times. Maybe “top democrats” have this view, but the polls and the American electorate are telling a different story. They do NOT want legislation that gives government control over healthcare or heathcare insurance. Barack Obama and top democrats are simply NOT listening to their constituents or the people that elected them. Proceed at your own peril.

Rovin on August 19, 2009 at 10:20 AM

Delay sucks.

propaganda is a “one-way” street I guess.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:08 AM

As you say, in your world.

Partisan propaganda aka marketing proliferates a direct and concise message to leave no confusion.

Don’t play the troll asshat. The world is populated with partisans. Guess on your own dime. And NEVER presume to speak for me.

maverick muse on August 19, 2009 at 10:20 AM

Its not the Republicans that the anti Constitution, anti American, hyper liberal left has to be concerned with, its the majority of We the People the House, the Senate and the Whitehouse better listen too.

The hard left Democrats have sunk the party, unless they plan on Zimbabwe rule and a new wave of Founding Fathers resulting from it, they better open their ears.

Speakup on August 19, 2009 at 10:20 AM

I think anectodal evidence is what’s wrong with the healthcare debate. Overall healthcare outcomes in those nations are not significantly worse, and in some examples they are better, than here.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:12 AM

When Obama’s national health care, health care reform, health insurance reform fails to pass, will you be moving to any of those other nations to get “better” care?

Can you cite one example that makes them better?

fogw on August 19, 2009 at 10:20 AM

What dream world do you live in?

darwin on August 19, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Ah…you’re dealing with a Kool-aid drinker who believes this:

And in the case of the health insurance industry those profit margins are pretty outrageous, 30-40%. – CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM

pearson on August 19, 2009 at 10:21 AM

I think anectodal evidence is what’s wrong with the healthcare debate. Overall healthcare outcomes in those nations are not significantly worse, and in some examples they are better, than here.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:12 AM

To me it comes as no surprise that you have no personal experience living in socialized healthcare systems. No surprise at all.

Now, since we don’t like anectdotal evidence, where is the definitive evidence to suggest that overall healthcare outcomes in those nations are not significantly worse? I’d be particularly interested in any such evidence you have that manages to effectively factor out cultural/lifestyle differences and addresses specifically the quality and accessibility of care.

DarkCurrent on August 19, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Given hardening Republican opposition to Congressional health care proposals,

Hardening of America’s opposition…

right2bright on August 19, 2009 at 10:21 AM

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

The ones trying this ARE socialist pigs that have a 14% approval rating. They do not have the trust of the nation and they have NO RIGHT to screw with anyone’s healthcare when the economy is imploding and the budget deficit is exploding. What your lying and obfuscations do are inflame people more than convince them so I encourage you. More please.

elduende on August 19, 2009 at 10:21 AM

If the Democrats try to force ObamaCare through reconciliation, that unanimous consent will dissipate faster than an Obama expiration date.

Just like dissent is no longer patriotic in liberal land,the rights of the “minority” that liberals whined about
for years also seem to be going straight down the rabbit hole.

Liberals can try and spin the differences between reconciliation and the nuclear option,but the NY Times itself shows the intent by the democrats in putting this in the budget is one and the same:


With Health Care Talks Uncertain, Democrats Consider a Last Resort

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/us/politics/02hulse.html?_r=3&partner=rss&emc=rss

With bipartisan health care negotiations teetering, Democrats are talking reluctantly — and very, very quietly — about exploiting a procedural loophole they planted in this year’s budget to skirt Republican filibusters against a health care overhaul.


AHHHHHHHHHHHHH,
remember the good ol’ days win pushing legislation through without debate signaled the end of democracy and the start of Bush’s dictatorship.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/2531/ira_chernus_on_wielding_the_nuclear_option

And with good reason. No other term captures so perfectly the magnitude of the destruction GOP senators plan to wreak on our governmental system of checks and balances. For two centuries, the right to filibuster has protected the minority from majority efforts to run roughshod over the Senate. If the Republicans get their way, the majority would, for the first time, be able to stop debate and force a vote as soon as they know they have enough votes to win. The minority would lose their only real bargaining chip for forcing compromise.

To extend the metaphor a bit, it seems that we Americans are all about to become “downwinders.” (People who were downwind of the aboveground nuclear tests of the 1950s and early 60s received an extra dose of fallout.) For the nuclear option and its attendant imagery is, as Ira Chernus explains below, a more than apt metaphor for the moment — not least because of the nature of the Senate grab for power by so-called conservatives. (By the way, isn’t there some sort of expiration date on the use of the term “conservative,” especially when what’s being considered is radical indeed — getting rid of a traditional political instrument whose history extends back to the early 1800s?) The wiping out of the filibuster could, in fact, represent the sort of great leap downhill (no slippery slide here) in the direction of a one-party state that many fear. After all, the accruing of unprecedented power to a majority party in the Senate will in reasonably short order lead to unprecedented control over the nation’s judiciary. Just remind me, what’s actually left after that?

“YES WE CAN!!!!!!!!!!”

Baxter Greene on August 19, 2009 at 10:22 AM

CrankyIndy, The only problem with the system is that Medicare and Medicaid are not bringing in enough money to pay their claims. . . even at 30% less reimbursement rates.

But is that because they are government run or is that because our health delivery systems are, at times, massively ineffecient. There’s a whole host of reforms in some versions of the bill that are meant to address that and, in the long term, can help to make medicaire more solvent including electronic medical records and not making testing the basis for incentives when it’s unnecessary.

What disturbs me about the opposition is that (in a scarily 180 degree role change) conservatives are entirely unwilling to have a conversation about reducing waste and ineffeciency in medicare because they realize that, politically, it’s easier to scare seniors. It just proves that the party system is entirely broken and our whole legislative process is f*cked in general. But, yeah, why aren’t conservatives proposing ways to reduce waste in medicare instead of yelling about “DEATH PANELS!!” Even when some of them, Chuck Grassley for example, used to support those kinds of things. It’s a damn shame.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:22 AM

Overall healthcare outcomes in those nations are not significantly worse, and in some examples they are better, than here.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:12 AM

Cancer survival rates for almost all types are higher in the U.S. than in developed single-payer nations. For some types it’s dramatically higher.

Life expectancy is negligible (8 months lower in the US than Europe), but we don’t cook our books by not counting babies born 2 months premature as a baby.

BadgerHawk on August 19, 2009 at 10:22 AM

FlameWarrior on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

Show me your post that precedes yesterday’s broadcast.

I owe you nothing, particularly as I mentioned Steyn’s comments online yesterday.

No one needs your permission to make an observation.

maverick muse on August 19, 2009 at 10:23 AM

I lived in one of those other industrialized nations for a number of years, and you’re right, healthcare spending per citizen was less. It was also far lower quality in my experience.
DarkCurrent on August 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Same here. But when I had a problem or a necessary test, I didn’t even touch my entitlements. I went straight to private for injuries or I flew back to the US for things like mammograms. No way I would have a mammogram read back in that EU country.

misslizzi on August 19, 2009 at 10:23 AM

Life expectancy is negligible (8 months lower in the US than Europe), but we don’t cook our books by not counting babies born 2 months premature as a baby.

BadgerHawk on August 19, 2009 at 10:22 AM

Exactly.

Vashta.Nerada on August 19, 2009 at 10:23 AM

There’s a whole host of reforms in some versions of the bill that are meant to address that and, in the long term, can help to make medicaire more solvent including electronic medical records and not making testing the basis for incentives when it’s unnecessary.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:22 AM

Multiple tests are run for liability reasons, not because a patients records are paper based. Yet not a word in a 1000 page bill about tort reform.

As an Independent don’t you find that a bit odd?

BadgerHawk on August 19, 2009 at 10:24 AM

They’ll try it. They’ve tried everything else and they know as more people get into the details, more people will be opposing… time is not on their side. If it were really about healthcare, they’d be taking their time, they’d be listening to their “constituents.”

itsacookbook on August 19, 2009 at 10:24 AM

Not even Harry Reid is this foolish

Don’t bet on Harry’s intrelligence.

Herb on August 19, 2009 at 10:24 AM

There’s a dispute on the question of profit margins and I’ll conceede that both sides are manipulating numbers for their side. There really is no response, however, to the fact that premiums have risen faster than wages due to healthcare monopolies.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

You never answered the challenge, where did you get your figures…we have to assume that you just made them up, that is not a “dispute”, that is a lie.
Your “concession” is that you accept your own lie…what a doofus.
Funny you never mentioned tort reform as one of the key elements in keeping costs down…well not so funny as obvious.

right2bright on August 19, 2009 at 10:24 AM

As an Independent don’t you find that a bit odd?

BadgerHawk on August 19, 2009 at 10:24 AM

Get out of my head…..it hurrrrts….

right2bright on August 19, 2009 at 10:25 AM

There’s a dispute on the question of profit margins and I’ll conceede that both sides are manipulating numbers for their side.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

LOL in derision!

Nice attempt at a disingenuous dodge there Creaky /s

DarkCurrent on August 19, 2009 at 10:25 AM

CrankyIndependent wrote:

. . . healthcare supporters are starting to outnumber anti-ones at townhalls . . .

Right. That’s why you guys have to pay them to show up:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/npo/1307220962.html

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/etc/1303066561.html

http://www.fundforthepublicinterest.org/jobs/citizen-outreach-staff

noblejones on August 19, 2009 at 10:25 AM

And in the case of the health insurance industry those profit margins are pretty outrageous, 30-40%.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM

can you share whatever it is that you’re smokin’ cause it must be some gooooood stuff

gatorboy on August 19, 2009 at 10:25 AM

I posted about this gambit here. I called my post “Prepare For the Mother of All Bloodbaths” because people will be upset with Democrats for this type of stunt.

LFRGary on August 19, 2009 at 10:26 AM

Actually, Ed is right on target… Checks and balances put in place by a few really smart people, likely with some help from the man above.

Keemo on August 19, 2009 at 9:39 AM

But leave us not forget, Keemo-sabe, that while those few really smart people are getting help from the man above, the Dems are getting a boost from the guy below.

And while true that the man above wins in the end, it’s also true that the man above has been known to permit the guy below to have free rein to wreak havoc upon the innocent (see Job, chapter 1).

FlameWarrior on August 19, 2009 at 10:26 AM

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM

Just curious, Cranky. Are you a licensed Insurance Agent? Where did you get this knowledge of the industry? Please cite your sources so we can all be as knowledgable.

kingsjester on August 19, 2009 at 10:02 AM

He can’t be. I am and virtually everything he said in that post is B.S.
Premiums are not figured on profit they are figured by actuaries based on risk!
For any type of insurance!
That is practically the definition of insurance. That is why I say much of this Liberal push for public option is, in addtion to pushing socialism, to get coverage for the high risk, younger categories, specifically HIV/AIDS infected, at the detriment to the older generations who will have to have costs/(benefits) reduced to pay for illnesses that are uninsurable and brought on by irresponsible risky behaviors!
Employer pools are meant to spread the risk.

dhunter on August 19, 2009 at 10:26 AM

Turfers are getting more subtle. Must be the higher-paid bots starting to filter in.

Bat Chain Puller on August 19, 2009 at 10:13 AM

But late-night we get the craigslist hirees.

misslizzi on August 19, 2009 at 10:26 AM

It’s because they are writing a bill that’s a giveaway to the private insurance industry if there is no public option.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM

So, let’s get this straigh CI. You’re advocating taking the private insurance industry, (1/6th of the national economy) and tranfering it into an inept government bureaucracy that even Warren Buffet warns is on a path to financial distruction??

Rovin on August 19, 2009 at 10:27 AM

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM

Your biggest problem here is that none of the actual facts, stats or economic principles are on your side.

But other than that you’ve got this thing in the bag.

BadgerHawk on August 19, 2009 at 10:27 AM

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:22 AM

I agree that reforms should be done. But I don’t agree that the government should expand what doesn’t work into that which works.

Establishing a ‘government option’ is the main primary, single numbero uno thing that Democrats want.

If you do that, it would be like shooting a hole in a boat to let the water run out of the bottom.

I prefer using Military spending to build clinics for Veterans and offer services there for people without insurance. That would be a LASTING fix that wouldn’t involve massaging imaginary numbers to make them look good.

The only thing that Dems and Obama want is a government option. That does NOTHING to fix the problem. And like the 2nd hole in the boat, deficits will skyrocket if they do because of CLAIMS.

I am against making constituents into liabilities of the Government Budget. The ‘public option’ would do just that.

ThackerAgency on August 19, 2009 at 10:29 AM

The dems leadership may want this…but individual dems want to keep their job…they are not going to give up the gravy train for the Pelosi/Reid train.

right2bright on August 19, 2009 at 10:30 AM

Looks like the health insurance companies are going to become eviler in our eyes.

The Dems go fishin’ in August:

House Democrats are probing the nation’s largest insurance companies for lavish spending, demanding reams of compensation data and schedules of retreats and conferences.
***
An industry source replied when asked for comment: “This is nothing more than a taxpayer-funded fishing expedition designed to silence health plans.”

misslizzi on August 19, 2009 at 10:30 AM

There’s a reason the Times didn’t mention reconciliation. It’s a bluff. Not even Harry Reid is this foolish.

I would never make a bet regarding the limits of Reid’s buffonery. As far as I can tell, there are none.

MarkTheGreat on August 19, 2009 at 10:31 AM

Good! Shut it down, and keep it shut down oh, until about November next year!

patriotparty1 on August 19, 2009 at 10:31 AM

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM

Just curious, Cranky. Are you a licensed Insurance Agent? Where did you get this knowledge of the industry? Please cite your sources so we can all be as knowledgable.

kingsjester on August 19, 2009 at 10:02 AM

He’s a classic leftist agitator. Give him as much credence as you would give a compulsive liar.

elduende on August 19, 2009 at 10:32 AM

CrankyIndependent puts forth valid points that need to be looked at…..I very much appreciate Crankys’ comments, just the thing we need to look further and deeper into where we find ourselves today, there is no easy fix to the problems with current healthcare, but it can be done and should be done.
Tort Reform being one of the most important. And if the profit margins are as high as 40/50%? That is way too much.
I don’t have answers to many questions, but as a whole, with the debate that goes on here, and I have seen some very valid comments to fixing this mess, it’s not the time for denegrating one another….(trolls not included) but to come together and really TALK about the issues and pull this Conservative group together and present a united front!! You go Cranky!! Wake my mind up!! Methinks you like to play the ‘devils’ advocate from time to time :-).

Onward Forward and Upward!!

RoxanneH on August 19, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Show me your post that precedes yesterday’s broadcast.

maverick muse on August 19, 2009 at 10:23 AM

No. I refuse. And you can’t make me, either. Tttthhhhhwwwwwpppppppbbbbb.

OK, wait a minute. This is beneath even the dignity of a lowlife such as myself. Forgive me, Mav, while I withdraw to my spider-hole and contemplate a more refined way of making you look the part of the fool. Please bear with me.

FlameWarrior on August 19, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Crankyindependent probably has left the building…typical for someone who posts some ridiculous lie, can’t back it up, then runs and hides for another day.
Counting on us not hounding him to provide a link to his lies…

right2bright on August 19, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Yet not a word in a 1000 page bill about tort reform.

As an Independent don’t you find that a bit odda

I find it unacceptable. It’s a pity that town hall protestors didn’t feel the need to ask these kinds of targetted and specific questions. Angry yelling drives a media story but it absolutely stalls the debate. If someone wants to organize a townhall protest with some signs about tort reform rather than Obama = Hitler, sign me up.

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:33 AM

RoxanneH on August 19, 2009 at 10:32 AM

and here’s another one.

elduende on August 19, 2009 at 10:33 AM

I’m suspecting a ‘pandering & posturing’ moment.

The dem’s [very noisy/unhappy] progressive base is getting more agitated with each new poll showing INCREASING resistance from the ‘independent’ [and senior] voters. That core 28-34% [depending on who's counting...] base HAS to fed and stroked lest they they have a mega-snit that could adversely effect 2010.

Could Reid ram it through? Possibly, but It would be a legislative ‘moment’ that the dems could not easily ‘walk back’ from. And that’s not even taking into account the voter backlash.

My tip: watch Pelosi and her merry minions. Even now they’re planning a ‘big-oil’ style witch-hunt against the insurance companies. I suspect they honestly think it will sway the ‘undecideds’ and seniors by hosting an ‘auto-de-fe’ with the Insurance CEOs as the ‘guests of honor’.

Will it work? With their whores in the MSM editing the video, anything is possible.

However, my gut tells me that time is NOT on their side. The bill IS being read, analyzed and results of those studies are getting the public’s ear.

The dems may yet curse themselves for not enacting the ‘fairness doctrine’ first.

CPT. Charles on August 19, 2009 at 10:33 AM

CrankyIndependent at various times
—–

Cranky,

I’ve been reading your posts for a while and trying to decide if you’re sincere or not. It’s possible to be sincerely mistaken, of course, and if that’s the case, then it’s my duty to try to enlighten you.

Here’s the thing. You don’t seem to be sincerely wrong. You seem to be a troll, of the type who posts initially rational statements, and slowly escalates over time to posting insanities and banalities. I forget what number that is on the “troll scale” (and yes, such a thing does exist) but .. that’s my view.

You may be sincere, and just need to switch to decaf, it’s not clear, but you’re coming across as someone sent to disrupt rather than someone seeking answers.

Mew

acat on August 19, 2009 at 10:33 AM

RoxanneH on August 19, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Sock, is that you?

Vashta.Nerada on August 19, 2009 at 10:33 AM

The only thing that Dems and Obama want is a government option. That does NOTHING to fix the problem. And like the 2nd hole in the boat, deficits will skyrocket if they do because of CLAIMS.

But the bills include all kinds of reforms outside of the public option. How can you claim its the only goal when its something that’s talked about the least by the administration and poo poo’d by pro-insurance lobby Senate Dems?

CrankyIndependent on August 19, 2009 at 10:34 AM

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